Yeah those keyboards are using macros.
However, some people are being stupid about this. ANet is not going to ban someone for using one of those 'gaming keyboards'. That's just stupid. Even if for some reason they did, as soon as it hit slashdot and digg that someone got banned because of their gaming keyboard the bad publicity they would get would probably not be worth it.
They merely have to include all kinds of what-ifs so that if something they didn't expect happens they can nip it in the bud. Hell, if you've got a better resolution mouse than me, the driver and support software for that mouse (allowing for the better resolution) would possibly give you an advantage. Now you just have to argue about what they consider an external "program".
They'll probably just get you for something like the old aimbots (whatever an equiv would be for this type of game). Maybe if a program allowed Assassins to do their skill combos perfectly, then someone would get banned. Not for a keyboard, though.. Use some sense people.
Anets Stance On Macros
CyberNigma
Manic Smile
if I can get a 4 skill chain off with one button and it takes you 4...imagine what that could do in say that little 100k dealio they got going...but for most of us I doubt it's ever an issue
skill one...wait...skill two...wait
imagine what we could do with if/then statements or do whiles...*sigh* I wanna play with code+GW
skill one...wait...skill two...wait
imagine what we could do with if/then statements or do whiles...*sigh* I wanna play with code+GW
fgarvin
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Gorebrex
Edit: There's never been a need to retype your email every time
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Tainek
Quote:
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Originally Posted by CyberNigma
Yeah those keyboards are using macros.
However, some people are being stupid about this. ANet is not going to ban someone for using one of those 'gaming keyboards'. That's just stupid. Even if for some reason they did, as soon as it hit slashdot and digg that someone got banned because of their gaming keyboard the bad publicity they would get would probably not be worth it. They merely have to include all kinds of what-ifs so that if something they didn't expect happens they can nip it in the bud. Hell, if you've got a better resolution mouse than me, the driver and support software for that mouse (allowing for the better resolution) would possibly give you an advantage. Now you just have to argue about what they consider an external "program". They'll probably just get you for something like the old aimbots (whatever an equiv would be for this type of game). Maybe if a program allowed Assassins to do their skill combos perfectly, then someone would get banned. Not for a keyboard, though.. Use some sense people. |
my main question is that:
if i wanted to catch a botter i would do the following:
Write a program which logs the times of certain actions, so for example, if i use dual shot and penetrating attack one after the other constantly, there will be different response times, following up dual shot after the previous attack might take me 63 milliseconds, then 67, then 86, then 32 , humans cannot do 60, 60 , 60 BUT a macro will (as that is all it can do, what its been told to)
so i would make a program , that measures reaction time, it would log me over 10 mins, and then say, EVERY SINGLE Pen>dual>pen>dual has had the same timings, this is a bot
now thats fine, but what if i have one that does D-30-a-30-n-30-c-30-e-30enter? that program would catch me out, and flag me as a botter
prehaps im just being anal about it, but i just want to know anets opinion on it
Loviatar
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sekkira
I dunno if it's just my paranoia, but that seems highly insecure.
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since you bypass typing in your password if you get a kylogger it has no password keystrokes to see or send back.
Tainek
but at the same time, the password is stored in plain text, lose lose really
best solution, just dont let any software onto the pc unless you trust it
best solution, just dont let any software onto the pc unless you trust it
jamal555
you cant do simle program to catch botters, in your p-30-g-30-?-30 formula there is a thing missing, network lag... as yu gont have ping 1 always or ever, u will always get dome kind of lag on your dommands, bots or human... there are much simpler ways to catch a bot, and they are in use by ANet...
But there are randomising bots and smart bots, and all sorts of bots... u can virtually make a non detectable bot program with some crative coding... i'm not gonna discuss it... but lets say 2nd year applied mathemathics student can write it in 3-4 hours... but there is no need for such program as all the farming places are owerfarmed and nothing good but random money drops... and thats not worth much... 50-60k for 24h is nothing now... u can trade that much in ascalon in 1 hour...
But there are randomising bots and smart bots, and all sorts of bots... u can virtually make a non detectable bot program with some crative coding... i'm not gonna discuss it... but lets say 2nd year applied mathemathics student can write it in 3-4 hours... but there is no need for such program as all the farming places are owerfarmed and nothing good but random money drops... and thats not worth much... 50-60k for 24h is nothing now... u can trade that much in ascalon in 1 hour...
David Lionmaster
if you have the password thing after the filename, can you also have the fps thing after it? if so, how?
Kai Nui
To the original poster: Just type out one message you want to spam, and press Enter. Press Enter and the Up arrow on your keyboard to go up to what you just said, and press Enter again. Of course it will stop you if you say it too much.
Tainek
yes thats easy, but with a macro, i only ever have to type it ONCE (for making the macro) , when i want to say it, i just press a button, i only ever need to say it once per PUG, so this saves me effort (not much, but it accumulates)
Fyre Brand
Quote:
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Originally Posted by CyberNigma
Yeah those keyboards are using macros.
However, some people are being stupid about this. ANet is not going to ban someone for using one of those 'gaming keyboards'. That's just stupid. Even if for some reason they did, as soon as it hit slashdot and digg that someone got banned because of their gaming keyboard the bad publicity they would get would probably not be worth it. They merely have to include all kinds of what-ifs so that if something they didn't expect happens they can nip it in the bud. Hell, if you've got a better resolution mouse than me, the driver and support software for that mouse (allowing for the better resolution) would possibly give you an advantage. Now you just have to argue about what they consider an external "program". They'll probably just get you for something like the old aimbots (whatever an equiv would be for this type of game). Maybe if a program allowed Assassins to do their skill combos perfectly, then someone would get banned. Not for a keyboard, though.. Use some sense people. |
Third party software (that is not written and distributed by NCSoft or it's subsidiary companies) whether it is "macro" or fully automated bot programs is strictly forbidden and will result in a permanent banning of the user account and any associated email addresses and credit cards associated with the acount.
Gaming Pads/Keyboards (which I can't remember the models of since I don't own one) are not considered a violation of the EULA/ToS. These are keyboards/pads like fgarvins. They have keys on them where you can program your function keys and/or a series of keystrokes. Technically that is what the traditional definition of a macro is.
Whether ANet has adopted another sub-policy on this or goes by it's parents definition isn't very clear to me. I would think they would have the same policy. I think Cyber hit a nail on the head. It would be very bad publicity to ban people for using a gaming pad without the whole industry making the same move all at once.
Personally I don't think this game is affected by keyboards as others and I wouldn't be opposed to players using them. Third party software on the othe r hand just pisses me off and I have no toleration for that. I have been on the recieving end of that in other games and it gives an insane advantage over the honest player.
Tainek
"Third party software (that is not written and distributed by NCSoft or it's subsidiary companies) whether it is "macro" or fully automated bot programs is strictly forbidden and will result in a permanent banning of the user account and any associated email addresses and credit cards associated with the acount.
Gaming Pads/Keyboards (which I can't remember the models of since I don't own one) are not considered a violation of the EULA/ToS."
But why the difference? , a fully automate bot program is obvious, but think of it this way
if i have a hardware keyboard, that lets me make macros (and lets face it, theyre macros), i have paid 30 quid for somthing to give me an edge, why shouldnt you be allowed to use macro maker to Achieve the same. BOTH can be used for abuse, i could for example, program one that sets 4 traps for 30 seconds in the correct order, with EITHER a program of a keyboard
Gaming Pads/Keyboards (which I can't remember the models of since I don't own one) are not considered a violation of the EULA/ToS."
But why the difference? , a fully automate bot program is obvious, but think of it this way
if i have a hardware keyboard, that lets me make macros (and lets face it, theyre macros), i have paid 30 quid for somthing to give me an edge, why shouldnt you be allowed to use macro maker to Achieve the same. BOTH can be used for abuse, i could for example, program one that sets 4 traps for 30 seconds in the correct order, with EITHER a program of a keyboard
chris_nin00
Quote:
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Originally Posted by David Lionmaster
if you have the password thing after the filename, can you also have the fps thing after it? if so, how?
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Other Macroing news,
15,000 runescape users were banned on the 19th of January 2006 because of macroing. Which is considered cheating in runescapes eyes.
Tainek
Quote:
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Originally Posted by chris_nin00
Add -perf
Other Macroing news, 15,000 runescape users were banned on the 19th of January 2006 because of macroing. Which is considered cheating in runescapes eyes. |
CyberNigma
Tank you Fyre Brand for finding that :-)
Tainek, you bring up a good point too. I think that's where the human factor comes in. Perhaps there is some kind of appeal process to them where they will take that into consideration. However, seeing the large numbers of monks in int'l augury, I imagine they have been walking on the side of caution this whole time. Regardless, I doubt the banning system is automated. They probably have people looking over the data before they ban someone, just to make sure.
I think ANet deserves more credit for that then they usually get. Yeah, its tru e farmers get hurt more than the botters it seems, but I think they have been trying to avoid banning legitimate people. They also keep saying that they are gathering information and will band them eventually. If you look at a player and a bot over time, I imagine that is where you will see a difference. Even a player that is using a keyboard with macros built into its software will eventually start doing something else (playing with friends, chatting, arguing, yelling n00b, etc) which will differentiate them from a bot. It probably just takes time.
By categorically disallowing macros in the sense that they have, they have shielded themselves from complaints by people who are using long macros and acting just as a bot, but technically being a person and not an automated program doing it. However, I would also suspect that the simpler macros would be a flagging factor in something like PvP where things are more competitive between people and those advantages really show up.
Tainek, you bring up a good point too. I think that's where the human factor comes in. Perhaps there is some kind of appeal process to them where they will take that into consideration. However, seeing the large numbers of monks in int'l augury, I imagine they have been walking on the side of caution this whole time. Regardless, I doubt the banning system is automated. They probably have people looking over the data before they ban someone, just to make sure.
I think ANet deserves more credit for that then they usually get. Yeah, its tru e farmers get hurt more than the botters it seems, but I think they have been trying to avoid banning legitimate people. They also keep saying that they are gathering information and will band them eventually. If you look at a player and a bot over time, I imagine that is where you will see a difference. Even a player that is using a keyboard with macros built into its software will eventually start doing something else (playing with friends, chatting, arguing, yelling n00b, etc) which will differentiate them from a bot. It probably just takes time.
By categorically disallowing macros in the sense that they have, they have shielded themselves from complaints by people who are using long macros and acting just as a bot, but technically being a person and not an automated program doing it. However, I would also suspect that the simpler macros would be a flagging factor in something like PvP where things are more competitive between people and those advantages really show up.
Ichabod The Ranger
I think it only works for one account as ther's only one GW.exe on your computer no?
And really great login tip, thx alot.
And really great login tip, thx alot.
CyberNigma
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Tainek
Wow , Owned- i wonder how many were using hardware (mx15 etc)
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The funny thing is it looks like they are going to ban the 'real' accounts that some of the throw-away accounts used to store their goodies in :-)
EDIT:
Shiznit...
You know Guru is going down hill when they make people like me a 'Citizen'...
Manic Smile
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Tainek
well thought out post here
my main question is that: if i wanted to catch a botter i would do the following: Write a program which logs the times of certain actions, so for example, if i use dual shot and penetrating attack one after the other constantly, there will be different response times, following up dual shot after the previous attack might take me 63 milliseconds, then 67, then 86, then 32 , humans cannot do 60, 60 , 60 BUT a macro will (as that is all it can do, what its been told to) so i would make a program , that measures reaction time, it would log me over 10 mins, and then say, EVERY SINGLE Pen>dual>pen>dual has had the same timings, this is a bot now thats fine, but what if i have one that does D-30-a-30-n-30-c-30-e-30enter? that program would catch me out, and flag me as a botter prehaps im just being anal about it, but i just want to know anets opinion on it |
there's this big story about how search engines(or spam guys or some such) are about to do just this thing on a massive scale and the repercussions this could have...
Manic Smile
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ichabod The Ranger
I think it only works for one account as ther's only one GW.exe on your computer no?
And really great login tip, thx alot. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Tuoba Hturt Eht
"F:\Program Files\Guild Wars\Gw.exe" -password=insertpasswordhere
You won't need to enter your password when you run Guild Wars When you press F12 and log out, you will be brought back to the character selection screen. |
-login=Manic Smile -password=^%$*&^
CyberNigma
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Manic Smile
make two shortcuts?
is there a way to set login name i.e. -login=Manic Smile -password=^%$*&^ |
=HT=Ingram
yea actually they have objections to useful directx overlays as well. I used to use TeamSpeak overlay to see who was talking while in game. it works with hundreds of games but not GW. It causes the system to crash quite often actually. so I had to stop using it. However it was a great and convenient tool when it did work...
The other nice thing was it would also allow you to see the FPS of the game.. so if it started dropping too low. In the New PvE Tombs for instance... then you could wait up a sec and allow the server to sync up to prevent lag. Especially during Worm sieges in courtyard. That seems to be the worst place for dropouts due to disconnects from lag.
The other nice thing was it would also allow you to see the FPS of the game.. so if it started dropping too low. In the New PvE Tombs for instance... then you could wait up a sec and allow the server to sync up to prevent lag. Especially during Worm sieges in courtyard. That seems to be the worst place for dropouts due to disconnects from lag.
Tainek
Quote:
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Originally Posted by CyberNigma
Yeah, I read their website after that was posted, and it appears that they are doing something like WoW. This means they can probably see that you are running so-and-so program along with the game. I doubt anyone got banned because of hardware. Its more likely people with gaming keyboards may have been banned while using other, more malign software (which showed up just a bit below runescape's site in a google query), but not as a result of the keyboard itself (and the software that goes with it). They probably just banned everyone running one of the identified programs.
The funny thing is it looks like they are going to ban the 'real' accounts that some of the throw-away accounts used to store their goodies in :-) EDIT: Shiznit... You know Guru is going down hill when they make people like me a 'Citizen'... |
Cybernigma: i would hope they look over the data before a ban, still no reply from last wensday from anet :|
Sliceman
Quote:
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Originally Posted by CyberNigma
Yeah, I read their website after that was posted, and it appears that they are doing something like WoW. This means they can probably see that you are running so-and-so program along with the game. I doubt anyone got banned because of hardware. Its more likely people with gaming keyboards may have been banned while using other, more malign software (which showed up just a bit below runescape's site in a google query), but not as a result of the keyboard itself (and the software that goes with it). They probably just banned everyone running one of the identified programs.
The funny thing is it looks like they are going to ban the 'real' accounts that some of the throw-away accounts used to store their goodies in :-) EDIT: Shiznit... You know Guru is going down hill when they make people like me a 'Citizen'... |
As for Guildwars macroing,it would be a waste of time,considering it is much different then other games when it comes to leveling.
Manic Smile
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Originally Posted by Tainek
and if random "reactions" can be generated, what hope is there for stopping them :|
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Tainek
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sliceman
Im pretty sure they did the exact same thing as the Mass Ban of 02 I beleive.Most of the people banned were caught because a macroer does clicks at almost the same interval to the exact milisecond,which a human cant do.Also Aryan ran in its own Java window making it quite easy to detect,not to mention most accounts were on 18+ hours a day.
As for Guildwars macroing,it would be a waste of time,considering it is much different then other games when it comes to leveling. |
setting up my build, for my mesmer i use a standard build for PVE missions, same skills and attributes for every mission (its particulally effective) , i'd love to press ctrl-b and have it set up my primary build, and ctrl a and set up my farming build- neither of these give me ANY advantage in playing the game, but do save me (i swap at least half a dozen times a daY) _Substancial_ amounts of time
also, im not enough of an idiot to not include human like reactions into a program
(no GM, i'm just neo, honest!)
Gorebrex
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Manic Smile
there isnt' dude...that's the really really scarry part...in a world without faces these designers are bluring the lines between man and bot
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Tainek
This i doubt very much, botting is only effective in a few situations, those where the AI is simple and predictable, it will never be effective enough to do 95% of the game (without True AI coming about) and its 100% redundant in PVP for very obvious reasons
as long as there are random variables, unpredictabilitys, and uncertainty, the game will always be bigger than "press a button to start fight"
of course a more complex program can be made to account for more and more variables, but why do this when you could spend that time actually PLAYING the game?
as long as there are random variables, unpredictabilitys, and uncertainty, the game will always be bigger than "press a button to start fight"
of course a more complex program can be made to account for more and more variables, but why do this when you could spend that time actually PLAYING the game?
Gorebrex
Oh no, not pure botting, I meant that with macros, you could have a set of anti(insert class here) commands, and just use those, it getting worse a technology progresses.
Tainek
i suppose you could, but tbh, to use them i have to have them in my bar already, and if i have a macro do it, i'd lose control for the few seconds its active, and gain very little- if it is a 3 chain combo, i can do it just as fast as the macro- i can chain them together as they cast.
i'd say the only combos that benifit are trapping ones prehaps
i'd say the only combos that benifit are trapping ones prehaps
CKaz
huh interesting conversation
I have the nostromo n52 and quite frankly never got good at using it
however I do use its wheel to cycle targets and MUCH MUCH RARER make use of some of the directly mapped keys (ie running, function keys for skills, nothing fires more than one key, its just an alternate keyboard map)
However I think it has the ability to go farther, and I believe (?) this is an okay piece of hardware to use. It's set up to load the configuration and run when I start GW - again thusfar it's really never used beyond a cycler (looking for elite bosses or priority targets) with a left handed wheel.
I think you also mention a good point there too Tainek - yeah I chain stuff together too, it waits per spell lag. I suppose some skills might benefit from 'machine speed' execution but in general I've queued up my skills (usually spells) and am waiting for their execution (and in the case of spells, after-delay) rather than it waiting for my input.
I have the nostromo n52 and quite frankly never got good at using it
however I do use its wheel to cycle targets and MUCH MUCH RARER make use of some of the directly mapped keys (ie running, function keys for skills, nothing fires more than one key, its just an alternate keyboard map)
However I think it has the ability to go farther, and I believe (?) this is an okay piece of hardware to use. It's set up to load the configuration and run when I start GW - again thusfar it's really never used beyond a cycler (looking for elite bosses or priority targets) with a left handed wheel.
I think you also mention a good point there too Tainek - yeah I chain stuff together too, it waits per spell lag. I suppose some skills might benefit from 'machine speed' execution but in general I've queued up my skills (usually spells) and am waiting for their execution (and in the case of spells, after-delay) rather than it waiting for my input.
Deathqueen
Don't you guys ever use Shift+Up Arrow to repeat what you've said? I use it often in trading and looking for groups. I never have to type anything like that more than once. Shift+Up Arrow key and there's your text just like you typed it. (smile)
SchwarzKnight
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Tainek
setting up my build, for my mesmer i use a standard build for PVE missions, same skills and attributes for every mission (its particulally effective) , i'd love to press ctrl-b and have it set up my primary build, and ctrl a and set up my farming build- neither of these give me ANY advantage in playing the game, but do save me (i swap at least half a dozen times a daY) _Substancial_ amounts of time
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hidden_agenda
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sekkira
Wait a minute, you're telling me kitchen knives can kill people right?
GOOD GOD MAN! WE MUST BAN THEM IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!! |
By the same token, having sex spread AIDS, AIDS kill people. Therefore sex kills people. Let's ban sex...
I expect the human race to go extinct soon...
lg5000
Ok, I'm confused, can someone explain this to a technology-illiterate person?
I thought my keyboard/mouse/joystick came with special software so that my computer (the box thingy) recognises it... therefore, I'm assuming, that I can open guildwars and set up certain buttons to perform certain actions (like change the forward and backward buttons and such) to suit my personal preferences and input devices.
Except.. that wouldn't exactly be writing a macro... ?
How would you get banned for using a piece of hardware that you've asked your computer to accept and changed the settings in guildwars to use the features of the hardware?
And Hidden Agenda, at least the human race won't starve to death that way
I thought my keyboard/mouse/joystick came with special software so that my computer (the box thingy) recognises it... therefore, I'm assuming, that I can open guildwars and set up certain buttons to perform certain actions (like change the forward and backward buttons and such) to suit my personal preferences and input devices.
Except.. that wouldn't exactly be writing a macro... ?
How would you get banned for using a piece of hardware that you've asked your computer to accept and changed the settings in guildwars to use the features of the hardware?
And Hidden Agenda, at least the human race won't starve to death that way
Katch
IMHO
I can't see Anet ever actively banning people for using simple macros. Whether they be executed by a programable controller or third party app. They hardly take the time to ban the botters out in Augury who use packet injection and memory loc bots.
As to the distinction between third party app and gamepad/keyboard macro use, this is absurd. All programable pads and keyboards are, are standard interface devices that have a (third party) software and driver which allows for macro writing and execution.
I have nothing against the use of these macros or pads, they have been present in gaming for a long time and do not give so much of an unfair advantage that you'd notice.
As for my n52, I love it. The 4 way D-pad is my best friend, push up and it triggers a macro (I+F9) up pops my inventory and bags, left and chat opens, right and the windowed map opens, down I get to see my character sheet.
I can't see Anet ever actively banning people for using simple macros. Whether they be executed by a programable controller or third party app. They hardly take the time to ban the botters out in Augury who use packet injection and memory loc bots.
As to the distinction between third party app and gamepad/keyboard macro use, this is absurd. All programable pads and keyboards are, are standard interface devices that have a (third party) software and driver which allows for macro writing and execution.
I have nothing against the use of these macros or pads, they have been present in gaming for a long time and do not give so much of an unfair advantage that you'd notice.
As for my n52, I love it. The 4 way D-pad is my best friend, push up and it triggers a macro (I+F9) up pops my inventory and bags, left and chat opens, right and the windowed map opens, down I get to see my character sheet.
mishop
Anyone who has played other online RPGs knows that BOTs are not a funny matter. Anet is taking the hard line to protect their game. Many games have tried to combat macros and have failed. I hope they don't give up. Once a crack develops in the floodgate, its all over. Any Asherons Call players read these posts? They can tell you better than anyone.
Tainek
Bishop have you read the thread? Macros =! Bots , bots are just one way in which macros can be abused, there are MANY benificial uses
twicky_kid
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Tainek
Bishop have you read the thread? Macros =! Bots , bots are just one way in which macros can be abused, there are MANY benificial uses
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lg5000
Aww.. no-one can help out a games-illiterate person..
Ristaron
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Juicey Shake
What about ones generated by something like this? [ http://www.thinkgeek.com/computing/input/7a71/ ] -- It's a craaazy keyboard with the ability to handle up to 18 programmable macros @_@.
I was thinking about getting that keyboard [my overly-expensive super sleek LED backlit keyboard's LED's just went out, +1/4 of them don't light up properly because of spilled soy sauce ^^;;], would the macros it could make violate anet's bot/macro detection system? |
omfg.
buy me that for my birthday plzkthnx!