guild wars: is it really all skill?

an editorial by Mickey C.

guild wars: is it really all skill?

you may recall opening the flap of the guild wars box and reading the sentence “You’ll prove your worth with every battle as skill, not hours played, decides your fate.” you may also recall feeling ecstatic about finally getting into a mmo-style game that doesn’t require you to spend countless hours fighting meaningless monsters all by yourself and being bored to tears while you search for one rare item. some of you still feel that guild wars has lived up to its promise. however, there are countless others who disagree.

at approximately 3:30pm, est, on monday afternoon, i logged onto gw and toured all of tyria asking everyone this very question: “all in favor of reducing the grind, say ‘yea!’ all opposed, say ‘nay!’” while most players felt no need to respond, i did get a clear picture of the feelings of the majority within about 5 minutes. the “nay” vote was a whopping 5 people, while the “yea” vote was put to shame at only 22. of course, there are several intelligent people who stand up for the game the way it is and claim the grind, if there is such a thing, isn’t all that bad. around the time i conducted my little poll, i interviewed the leader of the team that had just won in the hoh, Marquis De J. he had this to say: “it’s a lot more based on skill then other rpgs, and beside, even fps need some skills… i mean… even fps need some grind.” well said, marquis. why, i remember wasting several months of my life trying to find the right gun in counterstrike while attempting to avoid awps people were able to use within 5 minutes of gameplay.

some of you may at this point be asking yourselves “what is this raving lunatic talking about? there is no grind.” while i do agree that the grind involved in gw is rather small in comparison to other games, such as swg, daoc, and lineage 2, there is still an ominous grind that is inescapably present. (those of you nay-sayers who don’t know what big words like “ominous” mean can find a dictionary and look them up.) yes, you can enjoy the game by playing through the pve missions a time or two and be done with it all in a week. yes, you can attempt to play some pvp without looking for runes or skills and keep yourself entertained for another few days. but, for most gamers, the entertainment value of the game is related to both sides being on a level playing field as well as being capable of winning. it is painfully obvious (“painful” means “it hurts”) that it is virtually impossible to win a pvp match against teams that have had the chance to grind if your team hasn’t. it also clearly does not put the two sides on a level playing field.

in addition, you may protest by saying that it takes little time to unlock most of the skills you would need for one or two different pvp characters. however, some of the more serious players like variety, which involves playing different professions. yes, you can switch your secondary profession once you ascend, but if you’re going for the large variety most hardcore pvpers are going for, you won’t have the skill points to buy the skills for your new secondary. yes, you can get those skill points by leveling past 20, but that, again, requires grind time.

the bugs inside the game the devs are failing to do anything about just make the grind that much more excruciating. it took me three days to unlock one skill i needed for a spiking ele build because every time i went into the zone and died, my henchmen would respawn underground. then, when i died again due to a lack of healing or tanking from the missing henchmen, i couldn’t respawn because i had henchies still living far away from anything threatening deep beneath the surface of the ground. upon complaining about this grind to my guild leader, sama, he simply responded with “what do you expect? it’s grind wars.” further into the conversation, he said “a lot of people claim you can do well in this game without unlocking stuff if you have the skills. but, if you go up against a team that has all the runes unlocked, you’re at a huge disadvantage.” and how can you argue with that? but, in order to get those runes, rare items, and elite skills, you have to spend months on tedious pve. so, i ask you, is it really a skill based game?

my british friend, Eternal, says it is. when i asked him this question, he told me, “it is skill based. whoever grinds the best wins.” as we sulked to one another a while longer, he reiterated his feelings: “i believe the pve-ers are happy the way things are, so i don’t see why the devs can’t just leave the pve intact exactly the way it is and allow the pvpers to unlock what they need more freely.”

while i can’t argue that there is some need for a grind and that the “unlock all skills” button from the betas may be a little ludicrous, i do believe firmly that something must be done to reduce the grind from its current state; especially since the reduction of rare drops they implemented last patch. it now takes a solid three hours to get a single rare item, which is absolutely absurd.

i do feel a bit on the dumb side for posting this on the public forums, because i know it will get flamed to death, but keep in mind that i’m not arguing that anything be changed to impair the pve aspect of the game. i just want my pvp skills and my runes to come a little easier. is that really so much to ask?

-Mickey C.
K A R M A [ZEN]

There IS grind. I mean, you gotta run the infusion thing 5 times. No, that's not quite right...you have to SUCCEED the infusion run 5 times. If that's not a grind, I don't know what is.

There's really not enough to bother me, though. I think it's balanced out pretty well.

I think what people don't realize is its not suppossed to be easy. I play both pve and pvp. I don't have all the skills I want in pvp unlocked either, but I plan on finding them. When I do I'll feel I earned them. I'll feel a little bit more special then the guy that buys the game and in five minutes has everything. This is not Counterstrike, or one of the dozens of other out-of-the-box-plug-and-play games.

Can you be competitive with a pre-built temp? Very. I've seen pre-builts kick arse and I've seen custom builts with Elites and fancy flaming swords get schooled.

I'm not trying to flame you, but maybe Guild Wars isn't the game your looking for. Me I'm happily surprised that it beat my expectations on both PvE and PvP fronts. IMO

I think the reason you got so many not responding to your shouts in game, was most probably didn't agree with you.

just check out the poll on the thread over at the guild hall if you don't believe me.

http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15353.

people want it skill based, not hours spent, like it says on the box. and i don't disagree that we should have to earn our stuff, but i don't think it should be as ridiculously difficult as it currently is. three hours for one rare that probably doesn't even have the rune were looking for? three days for one skill? it's just too much.

Nox sounds like a game you'd have liked better, PvP wise. Every skill/spell from the get go, but no weapons at the start - players just run around grabbing floating weapons on the map and then trying to catch and pummel each other. Fun for short bursts but really gets boring after a while.

I like the PvE (I still want to call it PvM...why does every game have to have it's own set of abbreviations for the same things) but even so, it has a grind. Hell, some would say that just the 'run forward, kill monster, run forward, kill monster' of action-RPG's is a grind unto itself. I can't think of single game that didn't have some grind, in some way. It's just kind of the nature of gaming.

I think GW does a pretty decent job of trying to balance it out so there's neither too much grind nor too much 'just handed to you on a platter' that leads to early ennui.

But I do see your point. For those who just want to hop into a full PvP w/out ever having to do PvE to be able to experience/utilize the 'full' PvP range of options/strategies...then no, GW doesn't appear to be that game.

EDIT - and if you don't change the PvE game, how then are you going to change it so it's easier for PvP folks to 'find' stuff for their PvP matches? Create another server/world with different drop rates? I don't think that's going to happen.

unless you can equalize practice time it will never be equal even if you get your **** unlock everything button back

pvp practice=GRIND

the pvp guilds that grind the most practice have an advantage and how are you going to equalize that?

I bought the game for the PvE and may never play PvP, but I can understand the frustration of the PvP'ers. Based on the statements that ArenaNet themselves make about skills v grind and the nature of the betas v the released product, I'd be disappointed myself. There should be some way to open up the elites and runes without making the PvP'ers become PvE'ers first.

Please lets not fall into another "PVP is in need of all skills unlocked" thread that has been done plenty of times already. Please note there is a "grind" time otherwise called a learning curve just in how the game itself plays. Now for us lucky few from beta we know how already but for the countless others who have purchased the game there wil be the "grind " of learning what skills work well together in the best combos etc. Now just because you may find this learning enjoyable others finding the unlocking of ELITE skils enjoyable. No one can master the SKILL to be sucessful in this game instantly. - queitly stepping off the soapbox-

Good news! If you're into PvE and don't want it to change, nobody is asking for PvE to change.

I'm into PvP tho, and the PvE grind is killing me.

Thanks.

Not to disagree with a Minister of Knowledge, Loviatar, but should you require PvE grind to gain skills for PvP. Absolutely, those who practice/grind PvP will become better at PvP and that IS where skills should come in. PvP'ers shouldn't have to become expert PvE'ers just to get the skills and runes they need for PvP.

IHMO!

Storm I think our esteemed Minister's point; if I may be so bold; (please forgive if I am incorrect) is that there is grind either way. Just one type of grind may be more enjoyable to them than the other. Now the arguement of whether or not ELITE skills or equipment should be avaliable for PVP only avatars I beleive is argueable the SHOUT of GRIND GRIND GRIND is beside the arguement itself and is really counterproductive to discussion of the issue.

After reading this post several times, I'm still not sure I fully understand it.

I beleive what you're saying is that PvP practice (which I have fun doing) is grinding? And because this is, to you, a form of grinding we should also enjoy the PvE grind? How are these 2 things related in any way?

y'know, I think the point of people not wanting PvP to have unlocked skills is that PvE-ers don't want to spend 50 hours collecting half their skills, then fight a 2 minute old character with ALL its skills to choose from. Of course if that person had no clue of how to use all those skills, whereas the PvE-er knew exactly what their skills did, it wouldn't matter as they'd still be able to win easily, but still. Someone told me in another thread that PvE-ers shouldn't fight PvPers in that case... well i thought this game was about 'everyone in ONE world'. You can meet anyone and fight everyone.

On the skill points thing... there is obviously a max number of skills you can have (something like 75 per profession?) so that could maybe be altered so you receive more than one skill point per level, so that at level 20 you have all you could need but I dont really know how/if that would work and personally like it the way it is.

On the grind thing, well you collect skills but you get all the regular skills if you do the quests anyway, and sure elite ones are a pain (i still don't have one) but if you keep the Capture Sig on you theres no problem there. Grind to me = spending hours farming drops until you get the ultimate weapon/armour... and you can quite easily find at least one rune plus a top damage weapon by the time you are level 20. Find one rune, swap with someone who has one you want. You dont HAVE to go out searching for it yourself. It's just that many people seem loathe to trade in this game, they'd rather make a drake hunting party than ask if anyone has a rune to sell. *shrugs*

I think the problem is that a lot of people on GW at the moment ARE playing it a lot and levelling up quickly etc. Or getting through the game quickly. Whereas the point in the quick levelling is that you could play it once a week for 6 hours and STILL reach max level and finish the story long before the next Chapter is out. Right now it's new and everyone is mad over it (i know i am) but once that settles down and people aren't playing it as their 'primary' game, I reckon a lot of the grind talk will settle down.

according to a pvp person you dont just play your way to pvp success it takes hours/day of hard practice to be actually good.

not playing for fun but working at it.

to ME that would be a straight mind numbing GRIND

it simply seems that GRIND has different meanings to different people.

and there will never be that level playing field they want due to some peoples ability/willingness to invest the time and some who wont

EDIT

why not offer a person a skill or a skill point for a quest?

what if the same quest giver had more than 1 quest to give and by doing both you could get both the free skill and a skill point

i think the present way of getting skill points is unreasonably long

People who invest more Time in a game will be better on average than people who don't. End of story. It's the same in just about every game you play. In fact, name a game (other than something trivial like tic tac toe) where more hours invested doesn't translate to greater advantage. Those who wish to attain perfection will devote countless hours in that pursuit.

There is always an element of natural skill of course, and it's usually most visible in first person shooter games like Quake 3. I'll never be able to match the aim of names like Thresh, Immortal, or Fatal1ty no matter how many hours I play. However with enough hours played I can still outfrag someone who might be a natural talent but doesn't know all the ins and outs.

In RPGs you have to balance the fact that these are persistent characters by giving them some long term goals to achieve. Unlocking every single skill in a game will only give an individual a miniscule sliver of advantage over someone who has unlocked most of them. It's a matter of diminishing returns but at least it keeps the players interested by offering stuff to find in the future.

In other threads, grinding is defined as doing the same thing over and over. A lot of PvE players don't really feel like they're grinding when they explore or go skill-hunting. A lot of PvP players don't feel like PvP practice is grinding either. The point is, what is heinous to one can be fun and enjoyable to the other. Asking for "the PvE grind" to go away, no matter the context, is sort of like suggesting PvP players only get to log once a week for their matches so they can save time and not waste all that precious time practicing, honing skills, or running drills. I like running around in the world, not knowing what I may find or if it will be worth it. I enjoy playing with my friends in a non-competetive way, just as I enjoy playing with them competetively as well. The current system makes you work pretty hard to get everything you *may* need. Alternately, you can only hunt the skills you know you'll use, for builds you specialize in.

Either way, the act of playing this game again and again is, in and of itself, a grind. If you enjoy it you may not call it such, but it is a grind by the definition of many.

[ ]

Now, perhaps I'm imagining things.. but.

Something that people always seem to forget is that Anet specifically said on at least one ocassion, that PvE charachters would ALWAYS have an advantage in combat.

Someone dig this up and put this damn horse to rest, please?

Spending time on the game improving your PVP skill is not a grind. A grind is when you spend time doing stuff solely for the reward and not the process. A grind takes little skill, just time.

You got to admit that the acquiring process of top notch elite skills are not fun, period. The easy elites are ok cuz they're common. Anyone who tells me that the capture system now is fun are either lying or they have never spent time getting a specific elite before. Let me explain...

The random boss spawn system is so annoying. It's by luck or time spent that you acquire an elite, and not by SKILLS!!!!! <<<-------MY MAIN COMPLAINT!!! Where is the SKILLS in finding a boss that only spawns randomly. All i see is countless wasted hrs.

I'm not exactly SAYING NO TO GRIND, but i'm beginning to think the SoC system as it is now is kinda lame. I demand that arenanet make getting elite not easier, but definitely more interesting and less luck. I dont even mind doing pve stuff to acquire skills i need for pvp; I actually think that it makes sense, but at least make it more interesting and definitely none of that random spawn crap.

Being able to acquire it through pvp at hoh is not a bad idea either. I see it as self taught or learn from the ppl you defeat...=) It also shouldn't just be handed down to anyone who wants it either though.

Here we go with the I should have it all stuff. This is the attitude that has killed other games like uo. Just work for it and enjoy the game play.

I may have misunderstood the intial argument of the original poster of this thread. All I'm hearing are definitions of "grinding", and pleas to get access to skills easier. It seems to me the argument is "Spending time in PvE is the only way to be better at PvP, and therefore this is not a game based off of skill." I find this statement to be untrue. A person who spends all his time in PvE is going to get rocked against real players. A person who spends his time in PvP only is going to get beat by builds that are stronger, more versatile, or more specialized. To succeed at PvP you need to spend time in both PvP and PvE aspects of the world. This means that the game has some skill required. If the PvP aspect of the game is more important to successful PvP play, then it is a "skill based game". I would argue the pvp time is more important. Runes do not have a huge enough impact on the game to make it so that a team without full runes can't compete. Likewise most of the pre-generated builds have enough variety that they can compete with a non-specialized team build (one that isn't made to destroy the pre-made builds). It is argueable that creating a build takes skill as well. Obviously, the team that has the stronger builds and equipment will have an advantage, just like a debater who does more research will have an advantage. However, if you do not know what you're doing in PvP, you're going to get your *** kicked. This is a skill based game.