guild wars: is it really all skill?

an editorial by Mickey C.

guild wars: is it really all skill?

you may recall opening the flap of the guild wars box and reading the sentence “You’ll prove your worth with every battle as skill, not hours played, decides your fate.” you may also recall feeling ecstatic about finally getting into a mmo-style game that doesn’t require you to spend countless hours fighting meaningless monsters all by yourself and being bored to tears while you search for one rare item. some of you still feel that guild wars has lived up to its promise. however, there are countless others who disagree.

at approximately 3:30pm, est, on monday afternoon, i logged onto gw and toured all of tyria asking everyone this very question: “all in favor of reducing the grind, say ‘yea!’ all opposed, say ‘nay!’” while most players felt no need to respond, i did get a clear picture of the feelings of the majority within about 5 minutes. the “nay” vote was a whopping 5 people, while the “yea” vote was put to shame at only 22. of course, there are several intelligent people who stand up for the game the way it is and claim the grind, if there is such a thing, isn’t all that bad. around the time i conducted my little poll, i interviewed the leader of the team that had just won in the hoh, Marquis De J. he had this to say: “it’s a lot more based on skill then other rpgs, and beside, even fps need some skills… i mean… even fps need some grind.” well said, marquis. why, i remember wasting several months of my life trying to find the right gun in counterstrike while attempting to avoid awps people were able to use within 5 minutes of gameplay.

some of you may at this point be asking yourselves “what is this raving lunatic talking about? there is no grind.” while i do agree that the grind involved in gw is rather small in comparison to other games, such as swg, daoc, and lineage 2, there is still an ominous grind that is inescapably present. (those of you nay-sayers who don’t know what big words like “ominous” mean can find a dictionary and look them up.) yes, you can enjoy the game by playing through the pve missions a time or two and be done with it all in a week. yes, you can attempt to play some pvp without looking for runes or skills and keep yourself entertained for another few days. but, for most gamers, the entertainment value of the game is related to both sides being on a level playing field as well as being capable of winning. it is painfully obvious (“painful” means “it hurts”) that it is virtually impossible to win a pvp match against teams that have had the chance to grind if your team hasn’t. it also clearly does not put the two sides on a level playing field.

in addition, you may protest by saying that it takes little time to unlock most of the skills you would need for one or two different pvp characters. however, some of the more serious players like variety, which involves playing different professions. yes, you can switch your secondary profession once you ascend, but if you’re going for the large variety most hardcore pvpers are going for, you won’t have the skill points to buy the skills for your new secondary. yes, you can get those skill points by leveling past 20, but that, again, requires grind time.

the bugs inside the game the devs are failing to do anything about just make the grind that much more excruciating. it took me three days to unlock one skill i needed for a spiking ele build because every time i went into the zone and died, my henchmen would respawn underground. then, when i died again due to a lack of healing or tanking from the missing henchmen, i couldn’t respawn because i had henchies still living far away from anything threatening deep beneath the surface of the ground. upon complaining about this grind to my guild leader, sama, he simply responded with “what do you expect? it’s grind wars.” further into the conversation, he said “a lot of people claim you can do well in this game without unlocking stuff if you have the skills. but, if you go up against a team that has all the runes unlocked, you’re at a huge disadvantage.” and how can you argue with that? but, in order to get those runes, rare items, and elite skills, you have to spend months on tedious pve. so, i ask you, is it really a skill based game?

my british friend, Eternal, says it is. when i asked him this question, he told me, “it is skill based. whoever grinds the best wins.” as we sulked to one another a while longer, he reiterated his feelings: “i believe the pve-ers are happy the way things are, so i don’t see why the devs can’t just leave the pve intact exactly the way it is and allow the pvpers to unlock what they need more freely.”

while i can’t argue that there is some need for a grind and that the “unlock all skills” button from the betas may be a little ludicrous, i do believe firmly that something must be done to reduce the grind from its current state; especially since the reduction of rare drops they implemented last patch. it now takes a solid three hours to get a single rare item, which is absolutely absurd.

i do feel a bit on the dumb side for posting this on the public forums, because i know it will get flamed to death, but keep in mind that i’m not arguing that anything be changed to impair the pve aspect of the game. i just want my pvp skills and my runes to come a little easier. is that really so much to ask?

-Mickey C.
K A R M A [ZEN]

There IS grind. I mean, you gotta run the infusion thing 5 times. No, that's not quite right...you have to SUCCEED the infusion run 5 times. If that's not a grind, I don't know what is.

There's really not enough to bother me, though. I think it's balanced out pretty well.

I think what people don't realize is its not suppossed to be easy. I play both pve and pvp. I don't have all the skills I want in pvp unlocked either, but I plan on finding them. When I do I'll feel I earned them. I'll feel a little bit more special then the guy that buys the game and in five minutes has everything. This is not Counterstrike, or one of the dozens of other out-of-the-box-plug-and-play games.

Can you be competitive with a pre-built temp? Very. I've seen pre-builts kick arse and I've seen custom builts with Elites and fancy flaming swords get schooled.

I'm not trying to flame you, but maybe Guild Wars isn't the game your looking for. Me I'm happily surprised that it beat my expectations on both PvE and PvP fronts. IMO

I think the reason you got so many not responding to your shouts in game, was most probably didn't agree with you.

just check out the poll on the thread over at the guild hall if you don't believe me.

http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15353.

people want it skill based, not hours spent, like it says on the box. and i don't disagree that we should have to earn our stuff, but i don't think it should be as ridiculously difficult as it currently is. three hours for one rare that probably doesn't even have the rune were looking for? three days for one skill? it's just too much.

Nox sounds like a game you'd have liked better, PvP wise. Every skill/spell from the get go, but no weapons at the start - players just run around grabbing floating weapons on the map and then trying to catch and pummel each other. Fun for short bursts but really gets boring after a while.

I like the PvE (I still want to call it PvM...why does every game have to have it's own set of abbreviations for the same things) but even so, it has a grind. Hell, some would say that just the 'run forward, kill monster, run forward, kill monster' of action-RPG's is a grind unto itself. I can't think of single game that didn't have some grind, in some way. It's just kind of the nature of gaming.

I think GW does a pretty decent job of trying to balance it out so there's neither too much grind nor too much 'just handed to you on a platter' that leads to early ennui.

But I do see your point. For those who just want to hop into a full PvP w/out ever having to do PvE to be able to experience/utilize the 'full' PvP range of options/strategies...then no, GW doesn't appear to be that game.

EDIT - and if you don't change the PvE game, how then are you going to change it so it's easier for PvP folks to 'find' stuff for their PvP matches? Create another server/world with different drop rates? I don't think that's going to happen.

unless you can equalize practice time it will never be equal even if you get your **** unlock everything button back

pvp practice=GRIND

the pvp guilds that grind the most practice have an advantage and how are you going to equalize that?

I bought the game for the PvE and may never play PvP, but I can understand the frustration of the PvP'ers. Based on the statements that ArenaNet themselves make about skills v grind and the nature of the betas v the released product, I'd be disappointed myself. There should be some way to open up the elites and runes without making the PvP'ers become PvE'ers first.

Please lets not fall into another "PVP is in need of all skills unlocked" thread that has been done plenty of times already. Please note there is a "grind" time otherwise called a learning curve just in how the game itself plays. Now for us lucky few from beta we know how already but for the countless others who have purchased the game there wil be the "grind " of learning what skills work well together in the best combos etc. Now just because you may find this learning enjoyable others finding the unlocking of ELITE skils enjoyable. No one can master the SKILL to be sucessful in this game instantly. - queitly stepping off the soapbox-

Good news! If you're into PvE and don't want it to change, nobody is asking for PvE to change.

I'm into PvP tho, and the PvE grind is killing me.

Thanks.

Not to disagree with a Minister of Knowledge, Loviatar, but should you require PvE grind to gain skills for PvP. Absolutely, those who practice/grind PvP will become better at PvP and that IS where skills should come in. PvP'ers shouldn't have to become expert PvE'ers just to get the skills and runes they need for PvP.

IHMO!

Storm I think our esteemed Minister's point; if I may be so bold; (please forgive if I am incorrect) is that there is grind either way. Just one type of grind may be more enjoyable to them than the other. Now the arguement of whether or not ELITE skills or equipment should be avaliable for PVP only avatars I beleive is argueable the SHOUT of GRIND GRIND GRIND is beside the arguement itself and is really counterproductive to discussion of the issue.

After reading this post several times, I'm still not sure I fully understand it.

I beleive what you're saying is that PvP practice (which I have fun doing) is grinding? And because this is, to you, a form of grinding we should also enjoy the PvE grind? How are these 2 things related in any way?

y'know, I think the point of people not wanting PvP to have unlocked skills is that PvE-ers don't want to spend 50 hours collecting half their skills, then fight a 2 minute old character with ALL its skills to choose from. Of course if that person had no clue of how to use all those skills, whereas the PvE-er knew exactly what their skills did, it wouldn't matter as they'd still be able to win easily, but still. Someone told me in another thread that PvE-ers shouldn't fight PvPers in that case... well i thought this game was about 'everyone in ONE world'. You can meet anyone and fight everyone.

On the skill points thing... there is obviously a max number of skills you can have (something like 75 per profession?) so that could maybe be altered so you receive more than one skill point per level, so that at level 20 you have all you could need but I dont really know how/if that would work and personally like it the way it is.

On the grind thing, well you collect skills but you get all the regular skills if you do the quests anyway, and sure elite ones are a pain (i still don't have one) but if you keep the Capture Sig on you theres no problem there. Grind to me = spending hours farming drops until you get the ultimate weapon/armour... and you can quite easily find at least one rune plus a top damage weapon by the time you are level 20. Find one rune, swap with someone who has one you want. You dont HAVE to go out searching for it yourself. It's just that many people seem loathe to trade in this game, they'd rather make a drake hunting party than ask if anyone has a rune to sell. *shrugs*

I think the problem is that a lot of people on GW at the moment ARE playing it a lot and levelling up quickly etc. Or getting through the game quickly. Whereas the point in the quick levelling is that you could play it once a week for 6 hours and STILL reach max level and finish the story long before the next Chapter is out. Right now it's new and everyone is mad over it (i know i am) but once that settles down and people aren't playing it as their 'primary' game, I reckon a lot of the grind talk will settle down.

according to a pvp person you dont just play your way to pvp success it takes hours/day of hard practice to be actually good.

not playing for fun but working at it.

to ME that would be a straight mind numbing GRIND

it simply seems that GRIND has different meanings to different people.

and there will never be that level playing field they want due to some peoples ability/willingness to invest the time and some who wont

EDIT

why not offer a person a skill or a skill point for a quest?

what if the same quest giver had more than 1 quest to give and by doing both you could get both the free skill and a skill point

i think the present way of getting skill points is unreasonably long

People who invest more Time in a game will be better on average than people who don't. End of story. It's the same in just about every game you play. In fact, name a game (other than something trivial like tic tac toe) where more hours invested doesn't translate to greater advantage. Those who wish to attain perfection will devote countless hours in that pursuit.

There is always an element of natural skill of course, and it's usually most visible in first person shooter games like Quake 3. I'll never be able to match the aim of names like Thresh, Immortal, or Fatal1ty no matter how many hours I play. However with enough hours played I can still outfrag someone who might be a natural talent but doesn't know all the ins and outs.

In RPGs you have to balance the fact that these are persistent characters by giving them some long term goals to achieve. Unlocking every single skill in a game will only give an individual a miniscule sliver of advantage over someone who has unlocked most of them. It's a matter of diminishing returns but at least it keeps the players interested by offering stuff to find in the future.

In other threads, grinding is defined as doing the same thing over and over. A lot of PvE players don't really feel like they're grinding when they explore or go skill-hunting. A lot of PvP players don't feel like PvP practice is grinding either. The point is, what is heinous to one can be fun and enjoyable to the other. Asking for "the PvE grind" to go away, no matter the context, is sort of like suggesting PvP players only get to log once a week for their matches so they can save time and not waste all that precious time practicing, honing skills, or running drills. I like running around in the world, not knowing what I may find or if it will be worth it. I enjoy playing with my friends in a non-competetive way, just as I enjoy playing with them competetively as well. The current system makes you work pretty hard to get everything you *may* need. Alternately, you can only hunt the skills you know you'll use, for builds you specialize in.

Either way, the act of playing this game again and again is, in and of itself, a grind. If you enjoy it you may not call it such, but it is a grind by the definition of many.

[ ]

Now, perhaps I'm imagining things.. but.

Something that people always seem to forget is that Anet specifically said on at least one ocassion, that PvE charachters would ALWAYS have an advantage in combat.

Someone dig this up and put this damn horse to rest, please?

Spending time on the game improving your PVP skill is not a grind. A grind is when you spend time doing stuff solely for the reward and not the process. A grind takes little skill, just time.

You got to admit that the acquiring process of top notch elite skills are not fun, period. The easy elites are ok cuz they're common. Anyone who tells me that the capture system now is fun are either lying or they have never spent time getting a specific elite before. Let me explain...

The random boss spawn system is so annoying. It's by luck or time spent that you acquire an elite, and not by SKILLS!!!!! <<<-------MY MAIN COMPLAINT!!! Where is the SKILLS in finding a boss that only spawns randomly. All i see is countless wasted hrs.

I'm not exactly SAYING NO TO GRIND, but i'm beginning to think the SoC system as it is now is kinda lame. I demand that arenanet make getting elite not easier, but definitely more interesting and less luck. I dont even mind doing pve stuff to acquire skills i need for pvp; I actually think that it makes sense, but at least make it more interesting and definitely none of that random spawn crap.

Being able to acquire it through pvp at hoh is not a bad idea either. I see it as self taught or learn from the ppl you defeat...=) It also shouldn't just be handed down to anyone who wants it either though.

Here we go with the I should have it all stuff. This is the attitude that has killed other games like uo. Just work for it and enjoy the game play.

I may have misunderstood the intial argument of the original poster of this thread. All I'm hearing are definitions of "grinding", and pleas to get access to skills easier. It seems to me the argument is "Spending time in PvE is the only way to be better at PvP, and therefore this is not a game based off of skill." I find this statement to be untrue. A person who spends all his time in PvE is going to get rocked against real players. A person who spends his time in PvP only is going to get beat by builds that are stronger, more versatile, or more specialized. To succeed at PvP you need to spend time in both PvP and PvE aspects of the world. This means that the game has some skill required. If the PvP aspect of the game is more important to successful PvP play, then it is a "skill based game". I would argue the pvp time is more important. Runes do not have a huge enough impact on the game to make it so that a team without full runes can't compete. Likewise most of the pre-generated builds have enough variety that they can compete with a non-specialized team build (one that isn't made to destroy the pre-made builds). It is argueable that creating a build takes skill as well. Obviously, the team that has the stronger builds and equipment will have an advantage, just like a debater who does more research will have an advantage. However, if you do not know what you're doing in PvP, you're going to get your *** kicked. This is a skill based game.

or how about either nerfing the unbalanced elites down to size and making them available like any other skill?

or eliminating them completely?

or just keeping them out of competitive play?

that way someone who wanted to get them all could spend the time doing it and nobody who played competively would have to waste time on it.

i gave 3 workable solutions people

instead of complaining how about some more REASONABLE ideas on it that would have a chance of being implimented?

generally, Guild Was is skill-based in the sense that if you have mentally deficient allies and/or henchmen, you're gonna die. whereas if you have a skilled-team instead, you're gonna win

although Guild Wars also has a huge grind, and you can not really compete at end-game PVP unless you have grinded all the same stuff as everyone else so yeah there definitely is an argument to be made that in the end-game Guild Wars is more grind-based than skill-based

GW is one game. People should think of it as one game with options. I know there is PVE and PVP option in beginning. Did you guys ever think Why you start off Level 20 in PVP? PVP side was design to test out you character before you actually get there. It was not meant for you to Start in PVP and Keep on playing in PVP. It's like test driving a car. You don't own it but, you just feel how good it drives and how good it handles. Then, You will drive another car and compare what is better for you. Same concept, It was design to see how your character will be compare to other PVP character out there. This is why you don't start off in Level 1. don't you get it?

GW designer want you to play PVE or RP side. It was design for you to enjoy the storyline and quest.
One question, why would you play PVE if you can buy all the skills in PVP? It doesn't make sense. There is not much effort.
Some people might say make it difficult to get it in PVP. O...k... This will create some form of grinding too.
You guys can argue to death but just think about how game is design.

Let's say you enjoy the PvP very much and you hate the PvE even more, what do you do?

I htink people seem to get this it's skill based, by that they mena Players skill not the skills of your character.

At the end of the day if PvP chracters get a method to quickly unlock all skills I don't want to PvP with them ever, unless my PvE character get the same. It's just not cricket.

For a level playing field we all have to endure the same tasks. If you want the playing field unblanced go play UT or somthing like that and use an aim bot.

I'm sorry but if PvPer want a game with instant death then this is not your game. The reward for playing PvE is a better choice in PvP. A better choice in PvP is not a reward for whining and moaning that you cannot dominate all the noob's.

I'm sorry that you think it's essential that you have everything in order to play this game becasue, i think haveing everythign right out of the box is not fun and rather dull. The veriety comes fomr not having everything and getting that rare unlock not many people have. Also haveing everything unlocked in PvP means you will just ge a bunch of build clones who all follow the best build. Sadly I think this would make GW nothing more then a fantasy version of Quake 3 or UT.

So it's pointless whining all the time as we all have to endure teh same toasks, just play the PvE and get the skills, with the guilds avilable you can probably get them all in a few weeks, then at least if you put the effort in to get the rewards, yu will be better than the other because you will have them rather than just maoning about them.

This whole PvP gripe is getting boring now, all it seem to be is a group of people who only seem to think of themselves and not the other million players out there.

22 people is not a majority vote by any means, and most of the time people won't say anything unless they have somthing to moan about. So naturally your poll will be bias. But inless you can get a sizable percentage of players wanting changes a few disgruntled layers won't change the way things are run. An being loud and obnoxious about it just makes the devs want you out of the game. At the end of the day they want friendly players not PvPers who stamp ther foot if they don't get things there own way.

OK How about I start a gripe, the PvE character don't get an Instantly kill PvP character skill. We need this becasue PVPers need all the skills and runes unlocked. The 'Instant Kill PvPer' skill will make the balance fair as the PvEer won't ahve everything unlocked by the time they reach the HoH.

"Grind" is an all together too commmon refrain for those who've found something in game they don't like. As many have said, other games were far more intensive and pointless in the amount of time and effort you had to expend to gain a reward. But most definitions of grind, most sensible ones, are something along the lines of "having to do something I don't want to do - something I find boring or repetative - in order to do something or gain something I want." Just "work" isn't grind. It's work you'd rather not be doing but have no alternative - other than simply giving up and not putting in the effort - so you're, in effect, forced into that boring or repetative task. Putting your nose to the "grindstone", as it were, and "grinding" out another kill, another level, another drop, or whatever else. Like anythign else that's originated on the internet the exact meaning is something very much up to debate and I doubt ou'd find very many people who agree on a single definition. But that's close to what I get from talking to the "PvP crowd" (I'm one of those who sees marking yourself as PvEr or a PvPer as a false distinction. It's one game, we all play the same game, we just happen to like different aspects of it. There are, there should be no such camps, we should all be working together to make the game better for all of us.) or those who're saying they find grind in Guild Wars.

What those people feel is that they're forced into random, repetitive, and unnecessary steps in order to have fun or even to prepare to have fun. Say, for example, the developers decided tomorrow to recuire every mission and explorable area in the game past, say, Post-Searing Ascalon to require an item - one item, call it a key - for each and every party member before they can enter that mission or go on that quest. And the only way to acquire that key would be to PvP for it. You'd need to go to an arena and win a battle on each and every map in the rotation at that arena and then you'd be given a key. You take that key, you give it to the NPC by the portal, they unlock it and you can enjoy some PvE. So, PvPing would be essential, vital for you to PvE. You wouldn't *have* to PvP, of course, in order to enter your next mission. Those who PvP a lot would be gathering lots of keys and they'd eventually sell them off as they'd never use all of them and you could farm away and gather the money to keep going. It could be made even worse, let's say that even henchmen required a key so that those who wanted to solo couldn't get just one key, they'd need to come by one for each and every hench they want to hire making it much more difficult for those who want to or need to go it alone for whatever reason. That's, in effect, what those who enjoy PvPers are saying has happened to them. They don't want to PvE or when they do they want it to be because they want to enjoy it. They want it to be optional - some way, some how - so that they're not forced into things the way requiring a key would be forcing those who don't enjoy PvP to somehow deal with it or forget about doing what it is they *do* like. Practicing PvP is not grind, it's doing what you want to do, no more than someone who enjoys PvE running their way through mission after mission is grinding. It's work, it's effort, but no one's forcing you to, it's not grind if you're having fun. But tracking down the requirements you need in order to enjoy yourself - to prepare to have fun - is where people percieve the grind to be.

Skills are too hard to find, skill points are too hard to come by, bosses are too hard to track down, rare drops to unlock the upgrades are too, well, rare, and finding the item with the right modifier is a random and difficult process. Even for those with a lot of resources, let alone those who are left to their own devices by not having a guild or not knowing about the various resources out there in the community. And while none of that is needed to have *a* win, it's necessary to have *many* wins - to be competitive - especially in an environment where everyone else can go out and obtain those advantages even if you don't. It's an arms race; if everyone could agree not to grind and to just PvP with premades and un-upgraded weapons then no one would have to bother with it but as soon as someone starts grinding then everyone else has to in order to catch up.

And, while you can argue whether or not the various assumptions in that viewpoint are valid what you cannot argue is that some people out there believe in it. There is a problem if only because people say there's a problem. Some of us playing Guild Wars are not having as good a time as they could and ignoring it or telling them to go away solves nothing. PvP is an important, integral part of the game. It's a selling point, it's a great way to have fun. I, for one, had no interest in PvP when I first started playing Guild Wars during the E3 event. But, having gotten tired of being destroyed by the Charr in one mission or another I tried it out. And lo and behold, I loved it. I had a blast there and I continue to have a blast whenever I find the time to PvP. Just as I have fun in the PvE parts of the game, too. The game is better served when entry into that facet of the game is as quick and painless as possible. More people playing means more chances for people to like it. More people liking it means more people who keep playing it. Who'll stay with the game and buy the expansions. Who'll provide opponents for competition. Who'll try out techniques and strategies that force everyone else to deal with them and make us all better players by raising the bar that little bit. Who'll populate our world and our community and make it all that much better. And that's a lot more likely to happen the easier it is for those who want to play PvP and for those who might like to play PvP have of avoiding what they find to be repetitive and extraneous and to get into what it is they might not even know they enjoy. As with the best, most strategic, most long-lasting games, it's an hour, a day, to learn and a lifetime to master.

Nice Post!

yes. if you have a skilled team, you're going to "when" ...

anyway, i feel i need to expand upon this topic because the entire thread, as i feared, has transformed into a big flame war between pvpers and pve-ers and whatnot. i noticed a lot of replies that point out the fact that you are required to play both pvp and pve in order to succeed at either side. while i definitely see this is the case for pvpers, i don't so much see it for the pve. the only instance of pvp a pve-er ever has is the 2 minute arena-style match you're required to go through at the academy. that's it. this match is kind of a nice little feature, though, because you're only required to do it once, win or lose, and it gives the pve-er the indication he needs on how he feels about playing the pvp side.

however, the pvper is required to spend hours in pve in order to unlock what he wants/needs. i believe someone stated in a reply that gw is a game with choices. you have three choices: you can play pvp, pve, or both. ture, and not true, because pvpers are forced to pve. thus, they aren't really allowed to choose pvp alone. this really only gives you two choices: you can pve, or you can do both.

this brings me back to the original point i was trying to make with the editorial. leave the pve intact, because pve-ers are happy. give the pvpers what they want so they can be happy, too. if that means bringing back the "unlock all skills" button, fine. but, there are other ways of doing it if you get creative and you refuse to make it that easy.

one suggestion i got from the thread i started at the guild hall was to allow pvpers to unlock things through the pvp itself. this could entail repeatable quests for winning x number of matches in tombs or arenas or gvg or winning the hoh and being rewarded with different skills and skill points after each repitition. it could also include additional rare item drops throughout the pvp whenever you win a match instead of dropping a single item for a random player upon victory in the hoh.

of course, i am but a lowly gamer. what i say really means nothing at all. but, my voice is not the only one speaking. what really matters is what the devs do. they're called "developers" for a reason: to develop the game in order to obtain and hold as large a fan base as possible. i'm not a fan of making idle threats, but i'm sure there are plenty of these angry pvpers who will get so incredibly fed up with the vast amounts of pve requirements that they will stop playing the game.

to reiterate, i do not propose we do anything to change the pve aspect. pve-ers like the way the game is, as they have said time and time again. i do ask, though, that the devs do something to please this angry mob of pvpers.

we all love your game. some of us don't love all of it, but we do all love the game. and we intend to continue playing it as long as the love remains. all i ask is that you please, please, please do something to rekindle the fire we're losing in this relationship before it's too late...

I was just about to write a response myself, and then read Sausaletus Rex's post above. And that pretty much sums up how I feel, though much more eloquently that I could have stated it.

There is an issue. If those who enjoy PvE were forced to PvP competitively for 100+ hours to unlock or progress through PvE, there would be a lot of upset PvE players. I like PvP, and only have a limited time to play each week. Since the pre-designed characters don't suit my playing style, I'm currently going through PvE to create a character that does. However, it's going to be many months before that character is ready for PvP, which in all honesty is a bummer, and in direct opposition to how this game was advertised.

Even if every single skill/item were unlocked in PvP, and a person went in and made their dream character based on their ideal build on the day they bought the game, it would take them weeks or months to learn how to use that character effectively in a team - not to mention learning the nuances of the game itself.. CTF is not something one can master in a day.

And though some suggest that PvE teaches one real skills necessary to be an effective PvP player, I don't agree with that anymore. The two styles of play are so different, that what works in PvE teamplay can actually be detrimental in PvP play, and vis-a-versa.

Quick summary: The only thing you *need* to "farm" in Guild Wars are the Elite skills, everything else is evenly acquired by everyone else in the game as the next person.



I think what is holding back a decision of any sort from the Dev's, is how to "seperate" the 100% Unlocked PvP Characters from the PvE Characters.

While I do think a LOT of people are crying about "the grind" way to soon, considering the game was NEVER marketed as NO GRIND at all, I do agree there should be some sort of middle-ground where "Unlocked" PvP and PvE characters are on a level playing field...

HOWEVER: Anyone who takes the TIME to fully unlock all their skills manually, should be given an edge. That is the kind of conclusion I come to when thinking about the current state of the game. And you know what?

That is the state the game is in right now!

People feel they *NEED* the Elite skills to compete, and that is just not true.

I have a suggestion to fix what people feel is a problem concerning the *NEED* for skills, but honestly I can't be bothered to type it all out right now since I don't see a problem with being rewarded for your efforts. Am lazy, especially when I smell dinner cooking!!!!

Inac

The fact of the matter is when I look back at the bwe's the game was IMO perfect. The pve players would go through there missions unlocking there abilities and generally enjoying themselves. The pvpers would use a variety of different builds with no thought on pve at all. The pve players could bring there characters to the pvp arenas to compete if they wanted to and the pvpers could ignore the story completely and just do what they loved to do.


Right now I am sitting at my computer pondering if I should reopen my WoW or DAOC account not because they are better games but because I have already done the grinds there and all I have to do is go and enjoy the pvp.

Just my $0.02

I do completely understand the frustration of PvPers, I myself am not too concerned about it as I find the PvE portion of the game very satisfying in itself. But from what I've learned, the main problem is simply this:

PvP players want everything unlocked from the beginning, they weren't expecting to have to grind (if even for a ridiculously short amount of time compared to other games), to unlock all their skills/runes, etc.

PvE players don't really care if PvP players get it all, but then there would be NO reward for actually going out and getting them yourself. They don't want to have gone the extra mile only to come across someone who got the same stuff with the click of a button.

The only solution I can think of to this problem is for PvE players to only play PvE players, and PvP only characters to only fight other PvP only characters. This does however go against the whole "one world" thing, you get the idea.

We can't just give the PvP only characters EVERYTHING and ALL the best skills/runes in the game right off the bat, because then the people who actually earned such items would feel entirely cheated, and with good reason, why SHOULD PvP only characters get such privaleges when everyone else needs to work for their elite skills and runes? Doesn't seem very fair if they're going to be competing in the arena. One did the work, the other didn't. (Not to bash the PvP players here, but that IS what it would be.)

If you guys want to keep it PvE characters fighting with and against PvP characters, you HAVE to allow the PvE characters to unlock some things for their characters, as to reward them for taking the time and effort to accomplish such things.

Tough 'eh? I don't see this problem being solved anytime soon, if you don't want seperate arenas.

Maybe the more battles a PvP player wins the more he unlocks for himself? This still wouldn't be fair though, because then you could just get in a good party and even though you yourself did nothing to contribute, you'd still get the rewards because of your teammates.

Go figure, I'm not too concerned about it. I studied up on the game through the betas and after it was released, just the fact that they called it an MMORPG in ANY sense, even the smallest of senses, should've let people know that it was going to have some things you needed to work for.

I look at this argument very simply. This game is not supposed to be purely about PVP deathmatches. If it was, then there would be no PVM component at all. Since there is a PVM component, you either have to enjoy it for what it is, or you'll probably have to find some other game to play.

True enough, Buoyancy, I mean in all honesty, it is "skill" that decides the battle.

If you've got a stock-PvP character and you're insanely skilled you can beat the little squirt who knows how to farm runes for his character, even though he has better equipment. However, if the guy who played PvE and went through the work of getting his character was ALSO skilled, then you won't win. This is not ONLY because of the items.

(Yeah, I know, that was a smart ass thing to say, but I'm right 'eh? Without skill as a factor you'd have nothing, so it HAS to decide things, if even in a distant sense. I'm not saying items don't also decide the battle, it's just that skill matters at the same time.)

Haha...got I'm horrible, just horrible. If not good for a laugh every now and then.

A lot of my friends that left there games are starting to drift back to them. The fact is the devs conned us into buying this game by saying skill over time spent. I played in the BWE's and was hooked, bought the game (collectors edition) and am now playing something else instead of it. During the BWE's I couldn't get enough of the game. I was playing for 40+ hours in a weekend and loved that I didn't have to put any time into the pve to compete. Low and behold I have 1 level 20 war/mes. I have been at 20 since about 5 days after release and I still don't have the elite skill I want and am still missing runes important to my character. I will pop in time and again but in all honesty the fun value of this game just isn't what it was before release. The grind in other games may seem worse but in all honesty I would rather go from 1-60 in WoW or even 20-50 in DaoC then attempt to capture all the skills I need for the classes I want to play.

You are wrong. The end game is almost purely about pvp battles. Yes you can do several underworld runs and what not but until they add expansions the end game is all about pvp. To compete in the endgame you are forced to farms for runes and go on capture runs which pretty much takes away every other good thing about this game.

How am I wrong? I stated that this game is probably not suited to the people who only want a PVP deathmatch. As you seem to want only the PVP deathmatch and aren't happy with the game, it looks like I was completely right. I don't see why this mythical thing called the "endgame" is so all important anyways. Once you have played your fill of what the game offers, then move on. You've easily made good on the purchase once you've had around 40 hours of fun.

Yes, but the majority of PvE players who don't think there is a grind, or don't see it as such... well the reward for them is playing the game itself, interacting in teamplay or enjoying the single player experience. I feel it's safe to suggest that most PvE players aren't going through just to make an uber PvP character as a payoff... it's only the PvP players that are doing that, or who feel a need to be rewarded for "grinding" so much. Which kind of brings us back to the whole point of the discussion.

One point that keeps getting overlooked is that just unlocking everything does not automatically grant one real skill at being able to play the game. The PvP games themselves and the dynamics of their gameplay have to be learned. Even in most FPS multiplayer games, where everyone has access to everything at the start, there are those who play better than others. One can't just build a dynamo character, jump into a CTF or King of the Hill type game, and own. At this point the PvP game, for the average newcomer, places too much focus on finding skills, rather than learning ways to apply them effectively in teams.

Those are players who are unlikely to ever be happy unless the game is changed so fundamentally that PVM has no bearing whatsoever on the effectiveness of PVP characters. The devs have pretty clearly decided that they don't want it to work that way.

I fail to see how the fact that a topic is being discussed supports one of the viewpoints under discussion.

Ok, so let me get this straight. PvP characters, who have no interaction with the game world beyond the arenas, are suddenly made to have access to all skills. A player who's been doing the missions and exploring the world decides to try the arena for a bit with his character, sees a pvp character that has all the stuff they spent hours and hours of their life getting and feels 'cheated'.

Why?

If the player had enjoyed the process, then they have no reason to feel cheated. The time wasn't wasted for them because they recieved compensation for the time - a feeling of accomplishment if nothing else. That they aren't able to fight with their character effectively in an all-unlock pvp setting when they can go create a pvp character themselves is similarly not something to engender feeling cheated. If they want to experience pvp, they go create a character quickly and off to the arenas they go.

They only time a person would feel cheated when presented with a character that had access to the skills they spent so much time collecting was if they had not enjoyed the process itself. If they had not enjoyed the process, that means they were expecting a payout at the end; they were working for the end reward, not the time in between. If thats the case, they are pvp players since their is no endgame content after you unlock everything beyond pvp. Not only that, they're pvp players who a.don't admit this to themselves and b.want to have an unfair advantage in a fight.

All of these threads, all of these debates really come down to the fact that if you enjoy pve for its own merits, you don't care if there is a cheap unlock or free unlock of abilities for pvp. Since you can avail yourself of that same mechanic, you happily putter along in pve saving the world and don't worry about feeling cheated that some guy in the arena has an elite skill your pve character hasn't unlocked yet.

Laz