Scamming...Your opinion - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

HDS

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2005

PS

Mo/W

18 Feb 2006 at 00:54 - 121

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

According to HDS, if you are shot, it is your own responsability for not being able to avoid the bullet. If you could but didn't manage to, it's all your fault.

Yet again incorrect, according to me if you kick an anrgy guy with a gun in the nuts he will shoot you and it will have been your fault.

Maxiemonster

There is no spoon.

Join Date: Jun 2005

Netherlands

Mo/

18 Feb 2006 at 01:01 - 122

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDS

Yet again incorrect, according to me if you kick an anrgy guy with a gun in the nuts he will shoot you and it will have been your fault.

That's kinda different situation..

You're saying that people are 'forced' into this because they can't get money? If they feel forced, it's because of themselfs, because they think they need more money, and start scamming. If they'd had a gun in their face by a guy saying "I'll pull the trigger if you don't start scamming people right now!" they'd be forced, but in this case, they're not.

Nawn Centz

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

Tombs of Primeval Kings.

W/

18 Feb 2006 at 01:01 - 123

As long as there are people who are able to be scammed, there will be scammers.

HDS

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2005

PS

Mo/W

18 Feb 2006 at 01:07 - 124

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxiemonster

That's kinda different situation..

You're saying that people are 'forced' into this because they can't get money? If they feel forced, it's because of themselfs, because they think they need more money, and start scamming. If they'd had a gun in their face by a guy saying "I'll pull the trigger if you don't start scamming people right now!" they'd be forced, but in this case, they're not.

They may feel forced because of others.

Another analogy wih the bullet would be:

It IS your fault if you walk into a gang shootout instead of avoiding it when you could have easily done so b sparing 5 seconds time.

Blue Steel

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jun 2005

The Blue Empire [BLUE]

W/Mo

18 Feb 2006 at 01:10 - 125

Just a quick lecture in legal principles, for fun:

1. The law does provide a remedy to fraud, and victims of scams are entitled to relief: They CAN get back every penny they lost in a court of law if they can carry the burden of proof and establish that a scam occurred (the reason many people do not get back money sent to scammers of every ilk is because there are no assets left to enforce a judgment against; the morons who steal are also generally bad about the use and preservation of wealth)

2. The common law of England and the basis of most American jurisprudential criminal legal systems distinguishes between crimes that are excused and those that are justified. In short, if you steal a loaf of bread because you are starving, you probably won't go to jail, but you can bet that the court could require you to pay back the cost of the bread as soon as you are able.

Diablo???

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2005

Seattle

SPQR

N/R

18 Feb 2006 at 01:11 - 126

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDS

It IS your fault if you walk into a gang shootout instead of avoiding it when you could have easily done so b sparing 5 seconds time.

How can anyone tell there will be a gang shootout in 5 seconds? The victim is called an "innocent bystander" unless they had prior knowledge of when and where there will be a shoot out.

lord_shar

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2005

near SF, CA

18 Feb 2006 at 01:13 - 127

Quote:

Originally Posted by eom

I think this thread should be stickied.

I saw one guy claim that the highest paying positions in this country are filled by the most honest people, and some other guy cites a lawyer as his expert witness on morality and ethics.
I may never see another thread like this again.

...<SNIP>...

Not entirely accurate, but I think you get the picture. Not every CEO is bad, but when a high ranking corporate executive betrays everyone's trust, there's always hell to pay. BTW, the above doesn't apply to politics, for very obvious reasons

EDIT: If any poster want to make a point, it's better not to use analogies... the practice never works very well. Just explain your personal perspective in a concise, point-blank manner. It's not that difficult to write in an expository form. This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but it's very difficult to follow hypothetical stories as opposed to the bare facts.

Rhys ap Llysgwr

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2005

E/Mo

18 Feb 2006 at 01:15 - 128

Scamming is unethical, but what I find even more disturbing is the mindset which supports that sort of behavior. "It's the victims fault for being weak/stupid/careless/etc." Typically people who have this attitude have scammed themselves, and feel the need to justify it.

And just ftr, I have never been successfully scammed, but I've reported plenty who have tried with documenting screenies. With luck I've helped to close a few scammer accounts.

Diablo???

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2005

Seattle

SPQR

N/R

18 Feb 2006 at 01:17 - 129

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Steel

2. The common law of England and the basis of most American jurisprudential criminal legal systems distinguishes between crimes that are excused and those that are justified. In short, if you steal a loaf of bread because you are starving, you probably won't go to jail, but you can bet that the court could require you to pay back the cost of the bread as soon as you are able.

I agree, and learned something new

.

The law may be black and white, but retribution can be flexible. It definitely wouldn't make alot of sense if a starving bread-stealer recieves the same punishment as a homicidal maniac.

Loviatar

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Feb 2005

18 Feb 2006 at 01:18 - 130

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDS

They may feel forced because of others.

how about giving some specific reasons that you feel scammers are justified in ripping people off?

not this vague causes stuff be specific in telling us when scamming is justified and why it is justified

and how are they possibly being forced and by what others?

if you cant justify it stop defending it

lord_shar

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2005

near SF, CA

18 Feb 2006 at 01:37 - 131

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDS

They may feel forced because of others.

I apologize if this sounds like an attack, but the above line of reasoning suggests jealousy as the person's motivation for scamming. Defrauding another player to better one's character's in-game finances is still an evil act. The more a person tolerates this behavior, the more he/she slips away from civil society.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDS

Another analogy wih the bullet would be:

It IS your fault if you walk into a gang shootout instead of avoiding it when you could have easily done so b sparing 5 seconds time.

Hypothetical analogies are useless for making any direct point. Stories are for Mother Goose. If you want to make a point, just stay what that point is, then follow it up with a clear explanation of how you arrived at the conclusion.

storm of daeth

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

somewhere

Zealots Of Abaddon [ZOA]

W/

18 Feb 2006 at 01:59 - 132

ok this is my opinion on scammers go ahead and flame me all you want
but here i go

scammers are the lowest dirtiest pices of crap in gw but they are the trickiest, i mean scamming in pretty much just another profession a game just wouldnt be the same without the cirminals. i think scammers shouldnt be able to be banned as its just a decision they made its the player who got scammeds fault for not being careful or taking their time with the trade. personally to keep myself from being scammed i always make sure the other guy accepts first and then i check to see if its the same item with the same stats.

Tuoba Hturt Eht

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2005

Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia

Deimos Tel Arin [CCTV]

W/

18 Feb 2006 at 02:26 - 133

My opinions:

Scammers:
Bad people, very bad.
Should be punished for what they did.

Scammed people:
Unfortunate people.
Sometimes however it is a case of carelessness.
Simply need to be more careful, and not doing things in a hurry.

Lord Iowerth

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2005

Atlanta, GA (#guildwarsguru FTW!)

Biscuit Of Dewm [MEEP]

R/Mo

18 Feb 2006 at 02:45 - 134

This thread is very interesting, I think i've read every post twice or more ... the thing that is still killing me (besides the hilarious analogies

) is there are still some folks out there saying: "It's the person getting scammed who is to blame for being careless" ... now, i'll save you the horror of throwing another analogy in here, but this just seems ludicrous to me ... not even the good kind of "oh that was odd, lol" ludicrous either, but the "what the hell is wrong with you?" ludicrous.

There are fraudulent companies (REAL WORLD scammers) out there who, every day, scam the country's elderly ... why? They are an easy target. They come from a generation where you could trust people for the most part, are sometimes a little forgetful, and can't really do much to fight back. Are they to blame as well for being so easy to take advantage of? Honestly, ask yourself that question.

Not to imply that there are many elderly playing Guild Wars, mind you, but the concept is the same. Those who are new, those who are not as GWeducated, those who are trusting: these are the people who get scammed. Is it their fault? NO. The only way to truly combat this type of behavior is through education of the masses: something that this site does very well.

Diablo???

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2005

Seattle

SPQR

N/R

18 Feb 2006 at 02:53 - 135

Wanna know a real scam? Coffins.

You can buy em, but you cant use em... not while you're alive at least...

storm of daeth

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

somewhere

Zealots Of Abaddon [ZOA]

W/

18 Feb 2006 at 03:26 - 136

ok trusting people maybe scammed but they have to learn to survive and plz stop talking about elderly people were talking about a game right now. the first time you get scammed you might just be too trusting second time maybe the same case but by the third time you should wise up to people scammers are the ones who know how to take advatage of opportunities

Diablo???

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2005

Seattle

SPQR

N/R

18 Feb 2006 at 03:40 - 137

I think we've already reached the conclusion that victims of scams are partially responsible for being too casual in an environment sprawling with scammers. We're just addressing that these "opportunities" are not all viable methods of making profit.

There's a difference between taking an advantage, and exploiting one.

Nyax Soulreaper

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

Canada

X Death Dragons X

N/E

18 Feb 2006 at 03:42 - 138

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

Wanna know a real scam? Coffins.

You can buy em, but you cant use em... not while you're alive at least...

lol good point

ive only read a couple of posts, and i think i have a general idea of what people are trying to say. ive heard a quote before (maybe some of u have heard it),

"fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" - not sure who it is from, but i think it proves a good point in this discussion IMO. i can easily see a scam take place like selling characters. if you get scammed once, that person is a 'fool', if you get scammed again, he/she's not the only one to blame. however thats IMO, no comments needed if you think otherwise

generik

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

18 Feb 2006 at 04:52 - 139

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxiemonster

It's kinda lame that you can actually earn alot of money on scamming. You buy something for 40g because the one you're buying from thought it was 40K still earns you 39K 960g, and yes, people fall for this scam very easily. Even though people getting scammed are rather stupid, scamming is a lame thing, so don't start with it. Making use of common mistakes isn't a good thing, you might think "Woohoo! Another way to make money!", but you might've made a 10 year old boy cry because he was just a bit to hasty with buying your items. If you scam, think of that 10 year old boy every time, if you still continue to scam, hope it'll make you feel bad, since it should.

Getting scammed - Stupid.
Scamming - Heartless and selfish.

Hey, for all you know the scam might make that 30 year old single loser cry... and then spurs him to realise what a true loser he is, reassess his life, stand strong, participate in "The biggest loser", and win a million dollars.

If you got scammed, take the lesson and move on with it. It's not the end of the world, and of course most importantly, admit that it was partly your fault and LEARN.

The biggest problem today is people nowadays are so afraid to take the blame for anything. Case in point, why is the average IQ score 100? Well, it would be very hard to explain to people that their little Timmy only score 70 points on intelligence isn't it, but if it is hundred, they think it is "100 points!" and go off happy and contented. People are all so stupid.

Savio

Teenager with attitude

Join Date: Jul 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

18 Feb 2006 at 04:59 - 140

Quote:

Originally Posted by generik

The biggest problem today is people nowadays are so afraid to take the blame for anything. Case in point, why is the average IQ score 100? Well, it would be very hard to explain to people that their little Timmy only score 70 points on intelligence isn't it, but if it is hundred, they think it is "100 points!" and go off happy and contented. People are all so stupid.

It's at 100 because it just makes it easier than saying "Your IQ is 1.35482." IQs are for the most part irrelevant and wrong anyway.

That aside, a scam may be in part because the scammed person is negligent or not paying attention, but the scammer willfully takes part in it.

Mustache Mayhem

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2005

BEN

R/N

18 Feb 2006 at 06:50 - 141

it's really on the buyer.. I mean if you get scammed it's more of a lesson learned- next time you'll be watching unless of course your iq is the issue.. then you gotta ask how did they even get signed up for an account

lord_shar

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2005

near SF, CA

18 Feb 2006 at 07:02 - 142

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mustache Mayhem

it's really on the buyer.. I mean if you get scammed it's more of a lesson learned- next time you'll be watching unless of course your iq is the issue.. then you gotta ask how did they even get signed up for an account

Blaming the victim is poor tact. Furthermore, there are some crimes and mistakes that victims don't get to walk away from.

DABhand

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2005

W/R

18 Feb 2006 at 07:05 - 143

Its easy to blame the victim, thats why people do that..

Its similar in PUG's, one warrior blames the monk for not healing him when he ran into a huge group of Mursaat Ele's and Mesmer's lol

generik

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

18 Feb 2006 at 07:48 - 144

Ok guys, it is time for me to remind you yet again that:

1) This is not a real life or death issue here.
2) This is not even a life or death issue here for a *game* character.
3) No meat and bones involved, I repeat.
4) It is some in game gold.

lord_shar

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2005

near SF, CA

18 Feb 2006 at 08:00 - 145

Quote:

Originally Posted by generik

Ok guys, it is time for me to remind you yet again that:

1) This is not a real life or death issue here.
2) This is not even a life or death issue here for a *game* character.
3) No meat and bones involved, I repeat.
4) It is some in game gold.

No, but blaming the any victim is still relevant, virtual or not. The criminal is always at fault, which is why society doesn't bother sending victims to prison.

Diablo???

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2005

Seattle

SPQR

N/R

18 Feb 2006 at 08:01 - 146

Discusson got too serious for ya generik?

generik

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

18 Feb 2006 at 08:05 - 147

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

No, but blaming the any victim is still relevant, virtual or not. The criminal is always at fault, which is why society doesn't bother sending victims to prison.

It doesn't matter, whatever's done to the victim has already been done.

generik

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

18 Feb 2006 at 08:07 - 148

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

Discusson got too serious for ya generik?

Yes, in fact some of the parallels drawn from a scam (that I believe is STILL largely due to the victim's ACTIONS) to real world crimes is not just ridiculous, but not valid at all.

lord_shar

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2005

near SF, CA

18 Feb 2006 at 08:09 - 149

Quote:

Originally Posted by generik

It doesn't matter, whatever's done to the victim has already been done.

Sure it does, which is why the modern world continues to maintain a penal code system. Criminals get incarsarated or executed as necessary. In one particular country, the government puts a bullet into the condemned criminal's head, then bills the family of of the criminal for the price of the bullet.

generik

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

18 Feb 2006 at 08:25 - 150

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

Sure it does, which is why the modern world continues to maintain a penal code system. Criminals get incarsarated or executed as necessary. In one particular country, the government puts a bullet into the condemned criminal's head, then bills the family of of the criminal for the price of the bullet.

Just say China if you meant to, it is damned clear especially when you mention the billing.

So, how do you propose the examples you mentioned will translate into GW?

Diablo???

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2005

Seattle

SPQR

N/R

18 Feb 2006 at 08:35 - 151

Quote:

Originally Posted by generik

Yes, in fact some of the parallels drawn from a scam (that I believe is STILL largely due to the victim's ACTIONS) to real world crimes is not just ridiculous, but not valid at all.

I agree that some of the analogies are a bit far fetched. But boil it down to the root of it: Scammers vs Victims. They may both share some fault, one is of innocent carelessness, the other is of malicious deception, which immediate actions should be taken to isolate them.

What's done is done, but that does not mean for victims to neglect the scammer. Reporting a scammer is not an attempt to recover your stolen goods, but an attempt to prevent future scams.

Diablo???

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2005

Seattle

SPQR

N/R

18 Feb 2006 at 08:39 - 152

Whatever mistakes the victim may have done is for themselves to learn, we have no right to place blame on them. You do not scold a child when he burn his hands, you do not tell others that it was all his fault, you reassure him the dangers of fire and to avoid them in the future. There's no need to inflict more pain to him, the fire has already done that for him.

(hope that analogy was not too far fetched...)

lord_shar

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2005

near SF, CA

18 Feb 2006 at 08:44 - 153

Quote:

Originally Posted by generik

Just say China if you meant to, it is damned clear especially when you mention the billing.

So, how do you propose the examples you mentioned will translate into GW?

I tried to remain politically correct

I'm not asking for any changes. I just wanted to make it clear that no random victim of any random crime is ever to blame for any criminal act.

generik

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

18 Feb 2006 at 08:50 - 154

To not bear blame is one thing, but the important thing is.. victims must still carry the responsibility for their own stuff up. No matter how you twist it really, in a GW scam more often than not it is made possible because of the victim's negligence.

Before you click that accept button just think "What's the hurry? Not like there are TONS of this item waiting for you where it came from right?"

lord_shar

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2005

near SF, CA

18 Feb 2006 at 09:11 - 155

Quote:

Originally Posted by generik

To not bear blame is one thing, but the important thing is.. victims must still carry the responsibility for their own stuff up. No matter how you twist it really, in a GW scam more often than not it is made possible because of the victim's negligence.

Before you click that accept button just think "What's the hurry? Not like there are TONS of this item waiting for you where it came from right?"

Nothing is being twisted. The scammer preys on a victim's potential lack of first hand experience for profit. Furthermore, GW has no mechanism to trace the act back to the purpotrator. As a result, most scammers continue to profit unchecked.

Educating people is a good start, but the evil half of human nature is the true root of the problem.

Diablo???

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2005

Seattle

SPQR

N/R

18 Feb 2006 at 09:14 - 156

Quote:

Originally Posted by generik

victims must still carry the responsibility for their own stuff up.

The point is they do, but it is a burden they did not deserve. We shouldn't constantly be forced to be paranoid. But we have to, it's not fair but it's life. As long as there is profit to be made, scammers will continue to exist. That doesn't mean we shouldn't take actions against them, that doesn't mean we should just ignore them, scammers are to blame, and they shall be reported by anyone accordingly.

Evil will always exist, but for evil to win is for good men to do nothing.

Tur713

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2005

Pink Animal Clan

E/Me

18 Feb 2006 at 10:09 - 157

Quote:

Originally Posted by generik

No matter how you twist it really, in a GW scam more often than not it is made possible because of the victim's negligence.

Pure and true ignorance is not the same as negligence. Not knowing is one thing; knowing and not checking is another. Not all scams are carried out on the negligent, they are more easily performed on those who just plain don't know.

Andy_M

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2005

Worthing, UK

(Don't fear) The Beaver

18 Feb 2006 at 11:00 - 158

I don't understand the problem Scamming is wrong, if it can be proven then the guilty person gets banned. End of problem.

HDS

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2005

PS

Mo/W

18 Feb 2006 at 14:28 - 159

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

how about giving some specific reasons that you feel scammers are justified in ripping people off?

not this vague causes stuff be specific in telling us when scamming is justified and why it is justified

and how are they possibly being forced and by what others?

if you cant justify it stop defending it

Calm yourself.

I never said it is justified, i said there is a cause to it. There is a difference. I will defend it for as long as i so wish to do, it is my choice to do so.

As for the second last question i will let you figur that out on your own... if you can then ill give you a cookie.

Hint: Not everybody in game is able to farm 8 hrs per day and has piles of gold in storage.

Again, once more so maybe you can get it: I never said it was justified, however i do say there is a cause for it.

HDS

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2005

PS

Mo/W

18 Feb 2006 at 14:37 - 160

Quote:

Originally Posted by storm of daeth

i mean scamming in pretty much just another profession a game

Rofl, imagine Scammer primary:

Primary att: Deception (lower you victims ability to percieve your scams by 5% for each point into deception)
Next att: Lieing (for each point into lying you become more effective at it)
next att: stupidity (for each point into stupidity you gain 5 IQ points)
next att: evilness (for each point into evil you feel less & less remorse per victim scammed)

Skill connected with deception: Abort trade signet (For 5...25 seconds you are able to close and open trade widnow at speed at which victim will nto notice, if scam is pulled off as such you gain 5....25 energy)
Lieing: Description alterer (cost: 25 energy) (For 1...5 seconds object's description is altered in trade window to what you advertised it as)
Stupidity: Fact blast (cost 15 energy) (For 5...10 seconds GW spews random useless facts to other player to force them to forget what they were doing letting them be scammed easier and forcing them to forget to take screenies to avoid reporting)
Evilness: Laughing (maintained enchantment, cost 10 energy) (While you maintain this enchantment you feel 10....25% less remose for victim of your scam)