Game designers completely LIED

ROMAC

I'm assuming that you didn't try going to seekers passage first. Hell all you have to do is enter the zone that seekers passage is in and die. Your respawn is right next to seekers passage. From there it is a straight shot west to elonas. IT IS EASY TO GET TO ELONA'S USE SOME STRATEGY.

Also, look in the community works forums for a full map. It will do wonders for you.

My necro and a ranger made it is about 30 minutes. Work, smarter, not harder.

I hate n00bs


BTW thirsty river is easy. Have rangers attack the mobs before talking to the hero. You can kill them all off and then just go after the priests when you talk to the hero. Try thinking out of the box.

With responses like these being so common, I am surprised you had the nerve to post at all, on *this* forum. It is the habit of the more elitist fans among us to assume that anyone who expresses a reservation about a game, is a lazy, idiot noobie who must just suck at gaming, as well as at life, and who therefore is deserving of ridicule. I can't agree with that assessment, myself, and I find that crude commands to cram things in private places, tend to destroy one's credibility and undermine his opinion, whether or not it is the correct one.

I think it would take an ethics professor to determine whether a half-truth, a lie of omission, or a lie of exaggeration is in fact, a true lie. I tend to think that the claim that the game was made for casual gamers, should more accurately have read, the game is 'more made for casual gamers than most games'. I also imagine that there is a very wide spectrum of casual gamers out there. In my guild, there are members who play perhaps four hours a month of any game, while you claim to be a casual player at four hours per day. It is certainly more accessible than grind-based games like UO, EQ1, and L2.

But, being more casual, doesn't make it easy, and in fact, the issue of whether a game is too hard, is an issue of average gamers versus hardcore, not casual gamers versus pseudo-professionals. Unfortunately, many developers, for whatever reason, often substitute arduous, time-consuming, repetitive and uninteresting tasks, for what everyone, regardless of how hardcore you are, truly wants: challenge. Gamers who say a game is too hard aren't asking for all challenge to be removed, they simply want the challenge to be brought down to a realistic level, made more doable for the average gamer. In other words, what you consider a good wholesome challenge, might be impossibly difficult for someone else. Some people play "to play" not "to win", and when playing is too hard (for whatever reason, time, talent, etc) they give up. Worse, the average player isn't spending any time on gaming forums reading or posting; he runs into a frustrating obstacle, and chucks the game, and no one ever hears his concerns. We, on the other hand, come to forums and complain and suggest, hoping the game is made better through our voices. They only hear us, so kudos to those of us who advocate for the unspoken masses.

My husband and I both play this game together, consider ourselves borderline hardcore and big fans of D2 and W3, and have several times run into extremely frustrating missions, quests, and areas that clearly need major tweaking IF we assume the devs are attempting to make a game that flows and has no spikes in difficulty that might annoy players into leaving. If we feel this way, I can only imagine that more average/casual players are having an even rougher time. Rather than saying they just suck, why not make suggestions for improvement?

There are always ways for hardcore players to make the game more difficult and challenging for themselves - using weaker equipment, taking the long way, playing difficult class combos or builds, doing it with henchies (or PUGs, depending what you think is harder). The trouble is, there are rarely ways for average players to make the game more doable for themselves, if they run into an overly-difficult spot. And, presuming that these average players are the silent majority, I imagine game companies would really like to hear their voices... or at least the casual gamers who speak for them.

I agree with Romac this game isn't really friendly towards casual gamers. In some cases it does take an hour or so to complete some missions, and the thing that gets me is sometimes you're in the middle of a mission or near the end and you've spent all this time playing and an individual will leave suddenly or your party gets killed after all that hard work. I'm not here to complain about the game or anything, but I will agree with Romac.

I am definitely a casual gamer. Before I became disabled in late 1999, I rarely played any game and never any like Guild Wars. Even when I started to become involved with gaming, I pretty much stuck to Myst games. I have to say that the only thing I would like to see changed is a way to save your position in game, no matter where you are. There are times when I am half-way through a mission and RL breaks in. I have to leave before I've completed the mission. It just about kills me when it happens because I know it means that I'm going to have to start all over from the beginning.

So far (and I haven't gotten very far....only to Yak's Bend and just that yesterday) I rarely have to repeat a mission more than a couple of times. But that's because I am a very careful player and when I see mobs come into the map area I take time to figure out how to best take them on a few at at time, when possible. I try to pick them off in twos or threes (I usually play with henchmen and prefer the ranger to the warrior). I did have to do the mission at Nolani Academy about 5 times because I just didn't run fast enough when told to return to the Prince....and when he died, so did I. And of course, that mission didn't end with returning to the Prince.....I didn't think that one was ever going to end. Thank goodness I was able to play straight through (once I guit getting killed off) without RL butting in....but I would have been heartbroken if I'd had to log off on the way to Rin.

I don't think having a save game option would effect the challenge aspect of the game and would definitely help people like me. And if you didn't want to save your game they could also offer the option not to.

However, I think Romac's point could have been made just as sucessfully, and perhaps moreso, without resorting to recriminations against the dev's.

You know, if you think it's a lie, STOP PLAYING.

Please do not waste time that some of us volunteer to make us mop up messes.

Even though your original premise had merit, it has been lost in the mass of flames and foul language found within.

If you have something to say, say it with common human decency. You know you want them to show it to you.

I agree with some points and disagree with others. Still, a lot of what I would have to say is opinion, and I normally keep that to myself. Safer that way.

Yet another "Grind thread" *sigh*

The devs did not lie, the "casual" gamer has just as chance to complete a mission as a "hardcore" gamer dose. Whether you have to do a mission 20 times or 1 time is completely up to you. Missions take skill and a basic understanding of the game, but that dose NOT mean that every mission will be a walk through the park.

If you are having trouble on a specific mission, stop and rethink your strategy. If you still cant get it, this game is not for you.

As I said before it takes a basic understanding of the game......

There is no such thing as "User-friendly". In fact, most products which claim to be such are simply half-assed and filled with bugs.
Guild Wars is good at what it tries to be: a game for both hardcore and non-hardcore gamers. Unlike D&D, GW's numerical are hidden. Unlike Everquest, the interface is more polished. Unlike Gothic, the controls are easier to learn. Unlike Diablo, you need not to lose gold/xp/your equipement when you die. Unlike Morrowind, you do not have to walk for hours in order to get from once city to another.
Guild Wars requires strategy and that is no secret, however I find that the missions gradually increase in difficulty allowing the new player to rather painlessly learn the ropes.

Nevertheless you might want to double-check your skills.I have recently started a character for PVP and been rushing through missions. Funny, but the Ice Gates, the one mission I had zero trouble at, I had to redo five times yet the Gates of Kryta, my nemesis since the beta, was a breeze. Now I am not saying that I failed the Ice Gates because I am such a good player but my party sucked and all. I am just saying that there are many factors linked to success and a single skill can make a whole difference between heaven and hell.
You got pretty far so I know you probably don't need advice.

Don't care about the whole argument thing, it's in a dozen other threads as you would've found out by going to...I don't know, any page since there are so many.

But I've got a suggestion that's helped me out on several occassions, I'm a pretty casual gamer, and while I play quite a bit I don't play it LIKE your average hardcore gamer, I have fun, mess around, am not concerned about winning. Just fun and what not.

For instances where you know you don't have the time to finish a mission, or when you need to go, just try killing all the mobs in the area, then sitting there in a safe spot while you go off to do whatever it is you need to do. Now you might not want to leave it on for 8-10 hours of whatever if you're off to work or something, but I do that all the time if I need to go in for a few hours, or if I get hungry or something like that. Just wipe the area of mobs and then sit somewhere clear of enemies while you go do whatever, then come back. I've done it loads of times and has worked for me just fine.

However, I'm only in the lands of Kryta and have not gotten to many portions of the game thus far, I have noticed though that there are many areas where enemies roam around and scout out the place. Typically though, you can find a good spot to rest.

If not, go back to the near-entrance and sit where it IS safe, I've done this in the stone summit mountains where the guys patrol every now and then from different areas, that way you can just walk back to where you were relatively quickly and not have to fight the enemies again.

Just a suggestion, it's helped me out a lot, might help you in the future with times when you find a mission doesn't fit your time schedule.

Thanks for the suggestion....I don't know about Romac, but many times this will work for me. Doh! Why didn't I think of it myself....although a save game option would still be nice.

Try the Evercamp2, er, I mean Everquest2. Took me three days to get BloodTalon to spawn to do part of a quest. Some camps in EQ1 you have to get on a LIST to camp. That's why I love GW, how you go through a mission from point A to point B to accomplish something, not everCamping a spot....and no "Kill X amount of Y Monster" quests. Gawd I hate those kind of quests.

Hrmm, another post which begins with out of the line implications, and far to tunnel sighted. This game isnt a complete lie, and dont just yell that your pissed. Give facts.

The game was not hard, but not easy, it was fun because ive beaten the game, and faster than many Final Fantasy games, now i dont have the desire to stay up till 3am, i pvp often, but not too much.

I agree that the game requires too many long term commitments. I can't realistically hope to get an hour in before I leave for work etc. However I can say that my overall rating for this game is somewhere in the vicinity of a 7 or 8 out of 10.

The things I'd really like to see are as follows (and I think a few of these would drastically improve the OP complaints:

Massive monsters with large co-op parties fighting them (imagine 100 people fighting a dragon)

More open maps: I don't like being given the illusion of a real world, when it quickly becomes obvious that most of the world is made of linear paths and and the rest is unreachable.

Mounts: Would drastically take care of run time, would be more fun and interesting... and in fantasy doesn't a mount seem like an obvious inclusion? And they would make the next suggestion more plausable

Creeps spread out more: I'd like the creatures to be more varied and less common. The creatures are all very cool... but it's frustrating when I want to explore the world or to travel to a specific area that I have to stop and fight 5 to 10 creatures within 20 seconds of just having fought (20 seconds if I'm lucky) I know that this is what people refer to as "grinding"... and it reduces the fun of the game. I want there to always be an option to sneak around them.

NOTE: There usually is an option to sneak around MOBs actually, it makes the game (for me) more exciting and fun since my heart starts thumping while I try to not get caught.

Romac, no offense, but...

Just so I completely understand here...

You have about 4 hours each day to play GuildWars, and you would get up at 5 am (5 am, as in "5 am it's still dark out and birds haven't started chirping") to squeeze in an extra 2 hours. So, you're getting up even earlier than most adults would get up for work on a regular work day...so you can play a video game--an online RPG at that.

When you have a weekend to yourself, you buy beer, then sit on your ass for 3 days and play GuildWars, going from Level 15 to 20 over the span of those 3 days. Presumably, the only times you would be out of the chair is to eat and take care of bowel movements. If I'm missing anything there, please mention it.

So, here we have you getting up before dawn--before your daughter and wife are awake, correct?--when you admittedly squeeze in an extra 2 hours, you powergaming an entire 3-day weekend when your wife takes your daughter on a vacation (I presume you weren't invited along?)...I don't think you're as far from the label of "hardcore gamer" as you may think.

EDIT: And really, I think there's a huge, huge, huge mislabeling going on around here concerning "casual" vs "hardcore" players.

I always find it amusing when someone labels his or herself a "casual" player, but it's clear to anyone here that person easily plays upwards of 25 to 30 hours a week, and then they bitch and moan about how much time they're spending in the game, claiming that they're "too casual" for the game, or some asinine rubbish like that.

I'm not sure how much time the "hardcore" players regularly invest in this game and others of its ilk, but I'd be inclined to say that 25-30 hours a week is much more "hardcore" than "casual."

So, that comes down to a player whining about how much time they're investing into this game, when the reality of the situation is they're the ones dumping all of that time into the game. "I'm a casual gamer!" they cry...but have logged 35 hours into one character already. "Casual" my ass. lol

And the fact that they complain about it doesn't seem very "casual" either. Would a truly casual player whine and bitch so much? I certainly don't, lol, and I don't see many truly casual players being so hurt and/or emotionally traumatized by the amount of time they're putting into the game.

Why? Because they understand it's just a game. It's not reality; it's not life. It's a game.

So, I think the general approach regarding "casual" vs "hardcore" is fundamentally flawed. Amount of time played is a factor, I'm sure and I don't doubt time played factors in here, but I think the truest determining factor is not quantitative at all; it's qualitative. The factor we need to consider the most here is approach (the mentality).

And the fact that the most vocal complainers here (at least, the majority of them) clearly belong to the powergamer/hardcore/powergrinder mentality is testament to there's more in the labeling than merely time spent playing, because if it were not for the mentality, there simply wouldn't be as many people investing so much time, and thus, simply wouldn't be so many "OMFG teh Devs totali lyed11!1!!" type of posts.

Ultimately, I think people need to get honest with themselves here, because many who label themselves as "casual" gamers really are not in the least: their posts, their time played, their game progress, but most importantly, their approach to the game, clearly point to something more than "I'm just going to hop on every now and again."

you're at kryta? lol you're barely out of the tutorial.

come back to this thread when you get to the ascension missions then thunderhead keep, then ring of fire...until then you have no idea what you're talking about.

if you can only play for 2 hours per day plan to take about a week to do the three ascension missions...plan to take another week to do thunderhead and maybe ring of fire...unless you get lucky every time and are able to get into experienced teams that know precisely what they are doing.

dude the whole game is pretty easy until you get to ascension and the missions after that...prepare yourself for some frustration is all i have to say.

grind = doing the same thing over, and over and over and over, and over

grind = me grinding a jedi in swg which took about a year...my painful introduction to mmo's
grind = me grinding 3 lvl 35 toons in eq2 and 4 lvl 35 crafters ...quit when my hatred of grinding overpowered my fascination with the graphics
grind = me grinding 4 lvl 35ish toons in WoW...definately better than those other 2...but that turned into a boring grind nevertheless
grind = spending over 8 hours on elona's
grind = taking 4 tries spread over about 6 hours and 2 days attempting thunderhead before success
grind = spending all the free time i've had spread over 3 days attempting ring of fire

if you look at my list, and are familiar with all these games, you'll see that i have successfully reduced my gaming grind over the past few years, and that i'm more than aquainted with the definition of grinding.

guild wars is a beautiful game
i love it to death
it is the least amount of grinding i have experienced
but there are a few sticky spots in the game that are definately a grind, and are extremely frustrating, and this thread is designed to bring that to the designer's attention

thank you all for flaming, agreeing, disagreeing...a 3 page thread is more likely to get their attention than a one page thread.

wow i can't believe someone would take so much time over 1 post. Is this you English coursework assignment?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

that one just for the record

heh what the hell.... i clearly have no idea what i'm doing it said page error please disregard anything i say starting now

well when they add the term casual gamer to the dictionary we'll have something to go by...until then we'll have to suffer each other's definitions.

casual gamer to me has nothing to do with the intensity you play a game with, or your ability...the difference between a casual gamer and a hardcore gamer IMO is mainly time.

now how many hours per day makes you a 'casual gamer' is the question.

i'd say 4 hours per day is casual, but then i'm basing my opinion on my own mmo experiences which began with SWG. In SWG i played about 6 to 8 hours per day, and pulled some 12 hour stints on the weekends...i'd say that's pretty hardcore, but that's more than double the time i spend now.

i'm lucky to get 2 to 4 hours per day on weekdays, and sometimes less on the weekends...rarely more than that on the weekends, and often less. Some weekends go by and i barely get 2 hours in the whole weekend.

To get my 4 hours on a weekday i have to get up at 5am...sometimes i get up at 6 or 7 so that means i play 2 hours on those days.

so if you had to average it all up i'd probably say about 3 hours per day, including weekends.

3 hours per day is definately not 'hardcore' by my estimates, and i would say that even 4 hours per day is not hardcore either...especially when it's busted up into 2 hours from 5 to 7, one hour from 1 to 2, and another hour beween 6:30 and 7:30.

define me as you will, but i think it's pretty clear that i'm a casual gamer if time and not intensity is what defines a casual gamer.

Romac it only takes common sence to get through the later missions.

If you are complaining about that, its plain pathetic.

Like has been said before, Grind is doing the same thing over and over for 1% of a level.

Not doing it over and over and over because you can't beat the mission.

And yes, a 3 page thread is going to catch their attention. They'll look at it, and see that your argument is just whining, and ignore you.

well... casual is in the dictionary. which one of these applies to your gaming schedule?

1. Occurring by chance. See Synonyms at chance.

2. a. Occurring at irregular or infrequent intervals; occasional: casual employment at a factory; a casual correspondence with a former teacher.
b. Unpremeditated; offhand: a casual remark.

3. a. Being without ceremony or formality; relaxed: a casual evening with friends.
b. Suited for everyday wear or use; informal.

4.Not serious or thorough; superficial: a casual inspection.

5. a. Showing little interest or concern; nonchalant: a casual disregard for cold weather.
b. Lenient; permissive: a casual attitude toward drugs.

6. Not close or intimate; passing: a casual acquaintance with avant-garde music.



I played some this morning too. I soloed against the dwarves outside of yak's bend for fifteen minutes. It's probably all I'll get to play today. It was fun.

if i had to pick one i'd have to go with #2

i don't think most people are refering to playing a game half-assed or not trying when they say 'casual gamer'

when people play a game they are almost always trying to win. If i only play pool once a year do i not try to win? of course i do. would you not call me a casual pool player because i'm trying to win? would you call me a hardcore poolplayer? of course you wouldn't.

if casual means you don't really care if you successfully complete a mission, then everyone that plays guild wars is hardcore by your insinuation.

Romac, you just done a dumb thing.

Since you like that definition, Romac, we'll go with that one, then compare it to things you've previously said, just to see if you "fit" with #2.

This doesn't seem like an irregular or infrequent interval to me. You were sitting on your ass doing nothing but playing GuildWars for an entire weekend, Romac. Infrequent? Please. You devoted an entire weekend. An entire weekend of your life was spent doing nothing else but playing the game. It doesn't sound like you went out dancing; it doesn't sound like you went jogging. Hell, it doesn't even sound like you slept. You play irregularly or infrequently? If given the opportunity, you would play all the time, so don't play that card here.

Irregular or infrequent? Try again.

2 hours in the morning.
1 hour in the afternoon.
1 hour in the evening.

That sounds like a work schedule. Irregular or infrequent my ass, man.

Face it. You aren't a casual gamer, going by any stretched definition of the word.

And maybe that's your problem. You're too concerned with playing. "I have to get up before the break of dawn just so I can get playtime in." Romac, that isn't healthy, end of story. And the fact that you "have" to all the more colors you has hopelessly devoted to an online RPG.

Romac, you don't have to do anything, let's make that perfectly clear, okay? You don't have to powergame over weekends, chugging six packs, when your wife and daughter are on vacation (again, do answer my question--did they invite you?). You don't have to get up at 5 am to play, not only because it's absurd--you're married, you have a family...don't you have a job?--but because it's wholly unnecessary.

That's a schedule. Don't try to play it off like you're just logging in whenever, because you're not. The fact that you've given us precise times is evidence that it's become a habit for you, i.e., a schedule.

And quite frankly, that's a load of horseshit, because look where it's gotten us. As I said before, time is not, and should not be, the major determining factor. The major determining factor should be qualitative: the approach or mentality of the gamer, and Romac, your approach/mentality ("I MUST PLAY WHENEVER I GET THE CHANCE," because that is the kind of attitude you're demonstrating here) is so incredibly far from a casual "Oh, I'll play whenever. No worries" that I'm starting to expect a Waiting for Godot coming from you. I'm going to wrap-up my post by returning to that "point" of yours, by the way.

No, no, no. You're getting confused. Don't get confused. It will only further derail whatever it is you're trying to argue.

I'm not saying that casual gamers don't play to win, because many of them do. But that is competition in the heat of battle, and is something entirely different than what we're discussing here: the gaming tendencies, specifically in terms of mentality and to a lesser extent, time devotion, of the gamer.

Being a casual gamer who plays to win when they do play is something entirely different than spending an entire weekend playing an online video game when the wife and kids are on vacation, and likewise, something entirely different than waking up to play said online video game before most people are even awake to get ready for work.

Don't confuse the issue here, Romac, and don't confuse the focus of the discussion. Competition among casual gamers, and competition among "hardcore" gamers, are another discussion entirely.

And to hit on one point again...

Where in the hell did chpmmttn ever indicate anything of the sort? He posted a definition then added an incidental remark about beating up midgets. You're arguing against points that were never raised to begin with.

Your logic here is faulty, and demonstrates a total lack of understanding of what we're saying here.

What I'm saying casual should mean is the gamer takes a more relaxed stance on the game, as in not forcing his or herself to get up at 5 or 6 am, that instead of staying at home and playing a video game the entire weekend, that person actually goes out and does something with physical people--or perhaps even accompanies his family on a vacation.

Nowhere did I ever say that a casual gamer doesn't really care if you successfully complete a mission. What I am saying, however, is that a truly casual gamer would try a few times to blast through a difficult mission, but after that, if they still didn't complete it, they wouldn't attempt it 20 more times, they wouldn't obsess over it, and they sure as hell wouldn't be bitching and moaning about it as much as you are in this thread, Romac.

Intensity has everything to do with it. And that's not "intensity" in the sense of being competitive; far from it. It's intensity in the sense of how much of their life is the gamer willing to devote to a game--and Romac, you've consistently characterized yourself as the type of person who would play all the time if they were able to.

I'm done with you. If you can't get what I'm saying by this point, you're a fool--and a whiny, bitchy fool at that.

You just proved my point that you don't know what grind is. What you are talking about is repetition. Grind, in an RPG sense, is the gaining of levels through repetition. Grind is not simply repetition, or just about everything can be defined by grind. I log in 10 times a day, do I grind when I log in? When I travel around the world multiple times, am I grinding when I click the travel button for the 20th time?

When I look at the list of your grinds in other games, notice you had to specify the level or it would be meaningless? And then when you come to your other points reguarding GW you refer to hours or tries, when they are all completely determined by your skill level. If your skill level, or that of your friends/party/guild, beats the mission first time through, does that mean you "skipped" the grind?"

Seriously, i'm not trying to be harsh because you seem intelligent and thoughtful enough, but your way off on your premise.

p.s. Less than 10 hours a week I would say is casual. More than 50 hours I would say is hardcore. Otherwise, you are better described as moderate, normal or adverage.

lol

nice flame

the funny thing is this is the suggestion forum, i suggested that some specific missions need adjusting because they take way too long and result in me getting very frustrated, and my main toon getting stuck in one spot for a week while i wait for the weekend to scratch the time together to complete it.

Judging by all the other threads similar to this, i'd say it's obvious many others share my opinion.

And the result is a flame fest...let's see...

i'm pathetic
i'm a liar when i say i'm a casual player
my wife dislikes me so much she didn't invite me to go to my in-laws for the weekend
i'm a whiner
i'm a fool
i'm a bitch
i'm too stupid to succesfully complete ring of fire

i'm certain there are other jems that i can't recall off the top of my head.

have i been flamed from a dozen different angles? yes
did i once flame anyone? no

it's been entertaining to say the least.

and you say you arent hardcore, first off, shitcan the beer, it makes you too stupid to know how stupid it makes you play. it slows your reaction times. Second, more than an hour a day is hardcore no matter how you look at it. its takign up a significant portion of yoru free time. If my daughter lived with me Id be spending all my time with her, not playing this game. Yeah I hated spendign 5 days trying to do river, it sucked ass, but it was nothign to the 5 months I wasted in DAoC and AC trying to get anywhere. I honestly dont see ths gae taking more than a month of my time to complete. Hell go to DAoC and try to beat the game in a week. There arent any more quests there than there are here, just as many mobs, they just gimp the xps so it keeps you playing and paying.

Yeah river took em a long time, but it was because I kept gettign retarded PUG's, as soon as I got a good one we did it liek it was nothin. Mirror? I honestly dont know wtf people bitch about, I did mine in the first try. Not because I have super uber 1337 skyllz, btu because I paid attention to what other people had to say about it and put some effort into actual strategy , instead of expecting to just spam 123 123 123 1234 and have my char mow down endless hoards of mobs.

Counter my points, Romac, not the very last sentence in my post--or are you unable to do that?

And you want us to take you seriously? Start posting with some intelligence, use punctuation, use capitalization, use some meaningful paragraphing, and most importantly, use some common sense. Your above response doesn't effectively respond to anything that was said. It's a vague, bitchy post and you're not helping your case at all by posting vague, bitchy posts, simple as that.

Try to take the high road all you want by "it's been entertaining to say the least," but your vain attempt at saving face here is a futile gesture at best, because you've shown your true colors here--and nothing you say is going to improve your image now.

You are done. Thanks for playing. Now go whine somewhere else.

By the way, that's also a load of horseshit.

Oh, please. We call you on the loads of horseshit you're spewing here, and you act like you're somehow the victim here? Get over yourself, Romac. "Flame fest" my ass. We were calling you on bullshit, nothing more. If you think that's flaming, then you are a fool--and a hypersensitive one at that.

Romac, you're married, with kids. Go spend time with them instead of wasting our time here, or wasting your time playing a dumb online game.

OK, that's enough. If I don't see civility in the next two posts, I'm calling EnDinG and we're closing this.

And not one more bit of foul language. You used your quota.

countering your points doesn't interest me in the least. you are too full of hatred, anger, and far too eager to flame.

And your points are meaningless to the intent of my thread.

The intent of my thread is to convey my PERCEPTION to those responsible for making changes to the game. Your perception means nothing to me.

My PERCEPTION is that the claims made by game designers about the game being perfect for the player that doesn't have large blocks of time to dedicate were lies...or at the very least misleading. I have 2 to 4 hours per day to dedicate yet i'm getting stuck at places for a week, then have to spend huge amounts of time on the weekends to get through them.

The whole over-dramatized title of the thread was designed to specifically grab the attention of any browsing employees of arena net.

I would think that the PERCEPTION of players is very important to arena net.

I'm certain that arena net also understands that the majority of casual gamers probably don't even participate in these forums, and that the PERCEPTION of the few that are here actually represent how a huge population of players feel.

My insinuation was that by the very fact that you had a gaming schedule, you probably aren't a 'casual player'. This has already been pointed out.

My comment on how much I played this morning was simply to illustrate that you can enjoy the game without playing it for hours. Your concept of being a casual gamer is very different than mine and I was trying to show that.

For you being a casual player is playing 4 hours a day. For me it is playing when I get a chance, whether it's a Sunday afternoon (which got me to Yak's bend) or just a few minutes in the morning. I didn't have time to do a quest or a mission so I worked out some kinks in my skill set and how I play.

Also, since you seem to be insinuating (lots of that going around) that I was playing half assed, let me say again that I was soloing, no henchmen, just me. I was playing as a W/N with swords and curses. My only healing was from Parasitic Bond and Insidious Curse; just enough to keep me barely alive. It was a very challenging fifteen minutes. After most fights I would watch my life drop to a sliver from bleeding and then have to skirt around roaming mobs while my life built back up.

When I get a chunk of time I'll finish some more quests and missions. I don't know when that will be, but it would probably be the same time that I might watch a movie if I wasn't playing this game. In the meantime I'll play when I get a chance for a few minutes and make my own goals. To me, this is being a casual gamer, and I am enjoying the game immensely.

This is not to say that if I had the time to play that you do that I wouldn't be. I probably would, but I wouldn't consider myself a casual gamer anymore. Hell, I probably shouldn't consider myself a casual gamer since I read this forum while at work.

Full of hatred? Anger? Too eager to flame? Those are excuses, Romac, not reasons. Frankly, they're lousy excuses. I'm no Anakin Skywalker here, so stop dealing in hyperbolics--you have a tendency to do that, too, so stop it. I'm not full of hatred, not full of anger, and certainly not too eager to flame.

You're just too sensitive. You're trying to discard my points solely on the basis of my personality (my personality is simply I'm blunt when I'm saying things). If you refuse to counter my points simply based on a personal reaction, then you really are unable to counter my points in an actual debate, or on the merits of an actual rebuttal, simple as that.

You want to prove me wrong, counter my points without resorting to anything that remotely resembles "no i wont because your mean."

Is that so?

Your perception (ooh, that's a nice 5-dollar word, now watch me turn it against you lol) of the game is a faulty perception, which is what all my previous points have been focused on.

1) You have continually tried to convince us here that you are a "casual" player, but that's an outright lie (or a self-delusion), simply based on what you have admitted to doing. Your perception is reliable? I'm sorry, it isn't.

2) Throughout the thread, you've been touting your SWG playtime as if it somehow would validate your criticisms, but what you have failed to realize is that it only hurts your argument, because it doesn't portray you as some sensible or mature individual.

All it does is show how skewed your perceptions are. SWG is a grind, yeah. I also experienced the Jedi Hologrind first-hand, but after I saw I needed to Master BioEngie, I knew it wasn't worth it.

But then to label difficult endgame missions in GuildWars as a grind simply because you're failing at them? Because you perceive them as a grind?

That's asinine, because again, your perception of the game is flawed.

3) While you would deny it vehemently, it's clear to any here that you perceive yourself as some type of gaming god, so if you're unable to complete a mission, that must mean the mission itself is designed poorly.

Again, your perception is faulty.

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Romac, you want to talk perceptual dynamics? You have none, and the fact that everyone here is totally disagreeing with you on many of your points should be a strong indicator of that.

Are you implying that YOU are their voice? With such a faulty perception to begin with, I think the only way for one to believe that would be for one to fool his or herself into that delusion.

Romac, you want to talk perception, bring it on. You have no idea what the word actually means.

i think one of the main questions here is why you are failing missions other people finish in one or two tries at less time per try.

are they all simply better than you are?

i think the game can have some unnecessary mobs removed or weakened. for instance, in the elona misison, in the beginning, u hav to kill bunch of bulls, which is absolutely pointless, then when u get to the crystals, before entering the base where the crystals are held, there are countless numbers of mobs just standing out in the open, which is also pointless, and people just use the "back alley" to get to the bases, and that countless number of mobs just stand there anyways. and sometimes when u team up with a noob and he runs into the mob, well, ur screwed, kuz u'd see this big patch of red dots moving towards u on ur map, and then u restart. so i think there are some mobs that can be removed

Weird, I didn't 'totally' disagree with him on anything in my post. Neither did a number of posters; in fact, several agreed that parts of the game were grindy and/or too difficult. Click back and have a look. You do not speak for me, nor for them. Frankly, you're being so rude to him I can't imagine wanting to be on your side, even if you happened to be right. As I said earlier, the ranting, off-topic e-peen contest just undermines opined opposition to his original claim. Aside from the obvious ad hominems I quoted earlier, the opposition's decline began with the attacks on the OP's clarity of perception in claiming he is a casual gamer, a ridiculous stand to take, since 'casual gamer' is a completely relative term, and therefore his claim neither proves nor disproves his perceptive abilities.

I'll reiterate my point, which lines up with the OP's in large part, though perhaps with more tact: the game has plenty of grind, and parts are too difficult for semi-hardcore players, let alone casual-average gamers, and Arenanet exaggerated and perhaps omitted truth in their claims that GW was intended as a casual player's dream game. With luck, and effort, and through well-intentioned threads like these, such problems might be heard and corrected in the future... hopefully, with less inflammatory drivel and verbal pissing contests clogging up the communication channels.

This post in the beginning was dead on, everyone who defends guild wars to the death using the line, "THIS GAME IS NOT LIKE ANY OTHER GAME!" Yet, if it is to defend it against a grind post it is always compared to other mmorpgs. In your words, "This game is not like any other game." Why compare it to the grinds in other mmorpgs? This is not a mmorpg. I agree with some people about it being too much of a grind, and others with it being ok in certain parts. I will say though, the game was advertised as many things that it is not and I will not defend Guild Wars against the title of this post.

I went through most of the game up to the desert, up till then it was alright, I was able to play 2 to 4 hours a day. Once I reached this point though it got a bit ridiculous, 6-8 spiders spawning at a time. Each of them able to heal with some DOT spell. It started to get utterly insane, instead of completing quests in this area all of the groups try to get as many warriors/monks as possible and sprint to the objectives. Is this what the Devs want?

think all missions are very easy, they were developed with thought in mind that one player with henchies could make it.
i have completed the game with n/me - 1 armor item infused (that is to stress that you dont need to make infuse runs)
i have 2nd char, lvl 20 R/E in one of shiverpeaks missions (ice caves or smth). I got to lvl20 in 2 days. (in15 seconds from lvl17 to lvl20 for killing my mirror). And guess what, almost all missions i did with henchies.. -- much faster.
As for last missions, yeah, you need more than 30 mins for them, and I really hate mursaat, coz they are disbalance, necro's minions and ranger's pet die in no time... Was very frustrating for me to play last missions; no point in my minions, I switched to curses.. And if its gonna be later that way ( I mean after addons) there is no sense playing necro, because he will suck not only in pvp but in pve too

Overall, i am dissapointed with game and dont play anymore.

btw, does any1 want to see how necro female 60k bonelace armor looks?

This is slowly edging worse and worse, though better than before.

And mobs in bad places make you strategize, which is a higher thought function.

First off man clam down the world is not over, however, I do understand the way you feel. Second of all the Devs did not "lie". The game is exactly as they said it would be. What they did is try to stray away from the "industry norm" of the market as of now.(EQ, WoW, etc..) Maybe your new to the RPG world, but it does take time thats part of the fun. Whats nice about GuildWars is that it is designed to be a hell of a lot faster than other online-rpgs out there. Take Everquest for example. You will spend 30+ actual days of playing your character. Thats not 30 days from when you created your character, thats litterally 30 days of actual playing the game just to get to a realatively decent level 60+ and access to teir 1 zones. To me that is a total waste of my time and I have to pay for it? Lol no thanks. What I'm trying to convey to you is that GuildWars greatly improved from a lot of these games and I believe the comparison the Devs are trying to make is that you don't have to spend countless hours of wasted time to see end game. Have long have you been playing? It seems like you would almost be level 20 if not already and be very near end game. You may have figured out some missions are harder than others, but its only harder if you are using the wrong strategy. I will admit it will take some tries before you get it down, but again thats part of the fun of the game. The missions are not easy (especially some of the higher level ones), but come on its a game, a very fun game at that. Just enjoy it, it seems to me that you started the "hardcore phase" you've brought the game to a personal level don't do that! Play the game thats whats it is meant for. In the end no one will really care what level you are what sort of gear you have, all I can is just try and enjoy yourself, but thats just my opinion.

-chris