Guild Wars Guru

Game designers completely LIED

4 pages • Page 3
F
Forboding Angel
Frost Gate Guardian
• #41
ROMAC

I'm assuming that you didn't try going to seekers passage first. Hell all you have to do is enter the zone that seekers passage is in and die. Your respawn is right next to seekers passage. From there it is a straight shot west to elonas. IT IS EASY TO GET TO ELONA'S USE SOME STRATEGY.

Also, look in the community works forums for a full map. It will do wonders for you.

My necro and a ranger made it is about 30 minutes. Work, smarter, not harder.

I hate n00bs


BTW thirsty river is easy. Have rangers attack the mobs before talking to the hero. You can kill them all off and then just go after the priests when you talk to the hero. Try thinking out of the box.
P
Paloma Song
Frost Gate Guardian
• #42
Quote:
I'm sure you were to lazy to read this whole statement, since you oviously don't merit the time to develope and idea, so I'll impart the abbreviated version. Cram it up your ***.
Quote:
I hate n00bs
Quote:
So please stick the pacifier back in your mouth.
With responses like these being so common, I am surprised you had the nerve to post at all, on *this* forum. It is the habit of the more elitist fans among us to assume that anyone who expresses a reservation about a game, is a lazy, idiot noobie who must just suck at gaming, as well as at life, and who therefore is deserving of ridicule. I can't agree with that assessment, myself, and I find that crude commands to cram things in private places, tend to destroy one's credibility and undermine his opinion, whether or not it is the correct one.

I think it would take an ethics professor to determine whether a half-truth, a lie of omission, or a lie of exaggeration is in fact, a true lie. I tend to think that the claim that the game was made for casual gamers, should more accurately have read, the game is 'more made for casual gamers than most games'. I also imagine that there is a very wide spectrum of casual gamers out there. In my guild, there are members who play perhaps four hours a month of any game, while you claim to be a casual player at four hours per day. It is certainly more accessible than grind-based games like UO, EQ1, and L2.

But, being more casual, doesn't make it easy, and in fact, the issue of whether a game is too hard, is an issue of average gamers versus hardcore, not casual gamers versus pseudo-professionals. Unfortunately, many developers, for whatever reason, often substitute arduous, time-consuming, repetitive and uninteresting tasks, for what everyone, regardless of how hardcore you are, truly wants: challenge. Gamers who say a game is too hard aren't asking for all challenge to be removed, they simply want the challenge to be brought down to a realistic level, made more doable for the average gamer. In other words, what you consider a good wholesome challenge, might be impossibly difficult for someone else. Some people play "to play" not "to win", and when playing is too hard (for whatever reason, time, talent, etc) they give up. Worse, the average player isn't spending any time on gaming forums reading or posting; he runs into a frustrating obstacle, and chucks the game, and no one ever hears his concerns. We, on the other hand, come to forums and complain and suggest, hoping the game is made better through our voices. They only hear us, so kudos to those of us who advocate for the unspoken masses.

My husband and I both play this game together, consider ourselves borderline hardcore and big fans of D2 and W3, and have several times run into extremely frustrating missions, quests, and areas that clearly need major tweaking IF we assume the devs are attempting to make a game that flows and has no spikes in difficulty that might annoy players into leaving. If we feel this way, I can only imagine that more average/casual players are having an even rougher time. Rather than saying they just suck, why not make suggestions for improvement?

There are always ways for hardcore players to make the game more difficult and challenging for themselves - using weaker equipment, taking the long way, playing difficult class combos or builds, doing it with henchies (or PUGs, depending what you think is harder). The trouble is, there are rarely ways for average players to make the game more doable for themselves, if they run into an overly-difficult spot. And, presuming that these average players are the silent majority, I imagine game companies would really like to hear their voices... or at least the casual gamers who speak for them.
Y
Young_Anakin
Ascalonian Squire
• #43
I agree with Romac this game isn't really friendly towards casual gamers. In some cases it does take an hour or so to complete some missions, and the thing that gets me is sometimes you're in the middle of a mission or near the end and you've spent all this time playing and an individual will leave suddenly or your party gets killed after all that hard work. I'm not here to complain about the game or anything, but I will agree with Romac.
M
Mawgleah
Ascalonian Squire
• #44
I am definitely a casual gamer. Before I became disabled in late 1999, I rarely played any game and never any like Guild Wars. Even when I started to become involved with gaming, I pretty much stuck to Myst games. I have to say that the only thing I would like to see changed is a way to save your position in game, no matter where you are. There are times when I am half-way through a mission and RL breaks in. I have to leave before I've completed the mission. It just about kills me when it happens because I know it means that I'm going to have to start all over from the beginning.

So far (and I haven't gotten very far....only to Yak's Bend and just that yesterday) I rarely have to repeat a mission more than a couple of times. But that's because I am a very careful player and when I see mobs come into the map area I take time to figure out how to best take them on a few at at time, when possible. I try to pick them off in twos or threes (I usually play with henchmen and prefer the ranger to the warrior). I did have to do the mission at Nolani Academy about 5 times because I just didn't run fast enough when told to return to the Prince....and when he died, so did I. And of course, that mission didn't end with returning to the Prince.....I didn't think that one was ever going to end. Thank goodness I was able to play straight through (once I guit getting killed off) without RL butting in....but I would have been heartbroken if I'd had to log off on the way to Rin.

I don't think having a save game option would effect the challenge aspect of the game and would definitely help people like me. And if you didn't want to save your game they could also offer the option not to.

However, I think Romac's point could have been made just as sucessfully, and perhaps moreso, without resorting to recriminations against the dev's.
Serafita Kayin
Serafita Kayin
Exclusive Reclusive
• #45
You know, if you think it's a lie, STOP PLAYING.

Please do not waste time that some of us volunteer to make us mop up messes.

Even though your original premise had merit, it has been lost in the mass of flames and foul language found within.

If you have something to say, say it with common human decency. You know you want them to show it to you.

I agree with some points and disagree with others. Still, a lot of what I would have to say is opinion, and I normally keep that to myself. Safer that way.
Manderlock
Manderlock
Wilds Pathfinder
• #46
Yet another "Grind thread" *sigh*

The devs did not lie, the "casual" gamer has just as chance to complete a mission as a "hardcore" gamer dose. Whether you have to do a mission 20 times or 1 time is completely up to you. Missions take skill and a basic understanding of the game, but that dose NOT mean that every mission will be a walk through the park.

If you are having trouble on a specific mission, stop and rethink your strategy. If you still cant get it, this game is not for you.

As I said before it takes a basic understanding of the game......
Devil's Dictionary
Devil's Dictionary
Wilds Pathfinder
• #47
There is no such thing as "User-friendly". In fact, most products which claim to be such are simply half-assed and filled with bugs.
Guild Wars is good at what it tries to be: a game for both hardcore and non-hardcore gamers. Unlike D&D, GW's numerical are hidden. Unlike Everquest, the interface is more polished. Unlike Gothic, the controls are easier to learn. Unlike Diablo, you need not to lose gold/xp/your equipement when you die. Unlike Morrowind, you do not have to walk for hours in order to get from once city to another.
Guild Wars requires strategy and that is no secret, however I find that the missions gradually increase in difficulty allowing the new player to rather painlessly learn the ropes.

Nevertheless you might want to double-check your skills.I have recently started a character for PVP and been rushing through missions. Funny, but the Ice Gates, the one mission I had zero trouble at, I had to redo five times yet the Gates of Kryta, my nemesis since the beta, was a breeze. Now I am not saying that I failed the Ice Gates because I am such a good player but my party sucked and all. I am just saying that there are many factors linked to success and a single skill can make a whole difference between heaven and hell.
You got pretty far so I know you probably don't need advice.
PieXags
PieXags
Forge Runner
• #48
Don't care about the whole argument thing, it's in a dozen other threads as you would've found out by going to...I don't know, any page since there are so many.

But I've got a suggestion that's helped me out on several occassions, I'm a pretty casual gamer, and while I play quite a bit I don't play it LIKE your average hardcore gamer, I have fun, mess around, am not concerned about winning. Just fun and what not.

For instances where you know you don't have the time to finish a mission, or when you need to go, just try killing all the mobs in the area, then sitting there in a safe spot while you go off to do whatever it is you need to do. Now you might not want to leave it on for 8-10 hours of whatever if you're off to work or something, but I do that all the time if I need to go in for a few hours, or if I get hungry or something like that. Just wipe the area of mobs and then sit somewhere clear of enemies while you go do whatever, then come back. I've done it loads of times and has worked for me just fine.

However, I'm only in the lands of Kryta and have not gotten to many portions of the game thus far, I have noticed though that there are many areas where enemies roam around and scout out the place. Typically though, you can find a good spot to rest.

If not, go back to the near-entrance and sit where it IS safe, I've done this in the stone summit mountains where the guys patrol every now and then from different areas, that way you can just walk back to where you were relatively quickly and not have to fight the enemies again.

Just a suggestion, it's helped me out a lot, might help you in the future with times when you find a mission doesn't fit your time schedule.
M
Mawgleah
Ascalonian Squire
• #49
Thanks for the suggestion....I don't know about Romac, but many times this will work for me. Doh! Why didn't I think of it myself....although a save game option would still be nice.
Defafnyr
Defafnyr
Academy Page
• #50
Try the Evercamp2, er, I mean Everquest2. Took me three days to get BloodTalon to spawn to do part of a quest. Some camps in EQ1 you have to get on a LIST to camp. That's why I love GW, how you go through a mission from point A to point B to accomplish something, not everCamping a spot....and no "Kill X amount of Y Monster" quests. Gawd I hate those kind of quests.
D
Deten
Ascalonian Squire
• #51
Hrmm, another post which begins with out of the line implications, and far to tunnel sighted. This game isnt a complete lie, and dont just yell that your pissed. Give facts.

The game was not hard, but not easy, it was fun because ive beaten the game, and faster than many Final Fantasy games, now i dont have the desire to stay up till 3am, i pvp often, but not too much.
DrSLUGFly
DrSLUGFly
Desert Nomad
• #52
I agree that the game requires too many long term commitments. I can't realistically hope to get an hour in before I leave for work etc. However I can say that my overall rating for this game is somewhere in the vicinity of a 7 or 8 out of 10.

The things I'd really like to see are as follows (and I think a few of these would drastically improve the OP complaints:

Massive monsters with large co-op parties fighting them (imagine 100 people fighting a dragon)

More open maps: I don't like being given the illusion of a real world, when it quickly becomes obvious that most of the world is made of linear paths and and the rest is unreachable.

Mounts: Would drastically take care of run time, would be more fun and interesting... and in fantasy doesn't a mount seem like an obvious inclusion? And they would make the next suggestion more plausable

Creeps spread out more: I'd like the creatures to be more varied and less common. The creatures are all very cool... but it's frustrating when I want to explore the world or to travel to a specific area that I have to stop and fight 5 to 10 creatures within 20 seconds of just having fought (20 seconds if I'm lucky) I know that this is what people refer to as "grinding"... and it reduces the fun of the game. I want there to always be an option to sneak around them.

NOTE: There usually is an option to sneak around MOBs actually, it makes the game (for me) more exciting and fun since my heart starts thumping while I try to not get caught.
Siren
Siren
Wilds Pathfinder
• #53
Romac, no offense, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Romac
I'm not hardcore, but i do have about 4 hours per day to play if i get up at 5am to queeze in an extra 2 hours. My wife also just took our daughter for a 3-day weekend so i bought a couple of sixpacks, drank beer, and played my ass off for about 3 days...went from 15 to 20 in three days.
Just so I completely understand here...

You have about 4 hours each day to play GuildWars, and you would get up at 5 am (5 am, as in "5 am it's still dark out and birds haven't started chirping") to squeeze in an extra 2 hours. So, you're getting up even earlier than most adults would get up for work on a regular work day...so you can play a video game--an online RPG at that.

When you have a weekend to yourself, you buy beer, then sit on your ass for 3 days and play GuildWars, going from Level 15 to 20 over the span of those 3 days. Presumably, the only times you would be out of the chair is to eat and take care of bowel movements. If I'm missing anything there, please mention it.

So, here we have you getting up before dawn--before your daughter and wife are awake, correct?--when you admittedly squeeze in an extra 2 hours, you powergaming an entire 3-day weekend when your wife takes your daughter on a vacation (I presume you weren't invited along?)...I don't think you're as far from the label of "hardcore gamer" as you may think.

EDIT: And really, I think there's a huge, huge, huge mislabeling going on around here concerning "casual" vs "hardcore" players.

I always find it amusing when someone labels his or herself a "casual" player, but it's clear to anyone here that person easily plays upwards of 25 to 30 hours a week, and then they bitch and moan about how much time they're spending in the game, claiming that they're "too casual" for the game, or some asinine rubbish like that.

I'm not sure how much time the "hardcore" players regularly invest in this game and others of its ilk, but I'd be inclined to say that 25-30 hours a week is much more "hardcore" than "casual."

So, that comes down to a player whining about how much time they're investing into this game, when the reality of the situation is they're the ones dumping all of that time into the game. "I'm a casual gamer!" they cry...but have logged 35 hours into one character already. "Casual" my ass. lol

And the fact that they complain about it doesn't seem very "casual" either. Would a truly casual player whine and bitch so much? I certainly don't, lol, and I don't see many truly casual players being so hurt and/or emotionally traumatized by the amount of time they're putting into the game.

Why? Because they understand it's just a game. It's not reality; it's not life. It's a game.

So, I think the general approach regarding "casual" vs "hardcore" is fundamentally flawed. Amount of time played is a factor, I'm sure and I don't doubt time played factors in here, but I think the truest determining factor is not quantitative at all; it's qualitative. The factor we need to consider the most here is approach (the mentality).

And the fact that the most vocal complainers here (at least, the majority of them) clearly belong to the powergamer/hardcore/powergrinder mentality is testament to there's more in the labeling than merely time spent playing, because if it were not for the mentality, there simply wouldn't be as many people investing so much time, and thus, simply wouldn't be so many "OMFG teh Devs totali lyed11!1!!" type of posts.

Ultimately, I think people need to get honest with themselves here, because many who label themselves as "casual" gamers really are not in the least: their posts, their time played, their game progress, but most importantly, their approach to the game, clearly point to something more than "I'm just going to hop on every now and again."
Romac
Romac
Lion's Arch Merchant
• #54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Witchfinder General
And people like me and some others are here to make usre that the devs clearly understand that you are not a majority; nor an accurate representation of the totality of their customer base.
you're at kryta? lol you're barely out of the tutorial.

come back to this thread when you get to the ascension missions then thunderhead keep, then ring of fire...until then you have no idea what you're talking about.

if you can only play for 2 hours per day plan to take about a week to do the three ascension missions...plan to take another week to do thunderhead and maybe ring of fire...unless you get lucky every time and are able to get into experienced teams that know precisely what they are doing.

dude the whole game is pretty easy until you get to ascension and the missions after that...prepare yourself for some frustration is all i have to say.
Romac
Romac
Lion's Arch Merchant
• #55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xoduz
The OP has no clue what grind is.
grind = doing the same thing over, and over and over and over, and over

grind = me grinding a jedi in swg which took about a year...my painful introduction to mmo's
grind = me grinding 3 lvl 35 toons in eq2 and 4 lvl 35 crafters ...quit when my hatred of grinding overpowered my fascination with the graphics
grind = me grinding 4 lvl 35ish toons in WoW...definately better than those other 2...but that turned into a boring grind nevertheless
grind = spending over 8 hours on elona's
grind = taking 4 tries spread over about 6 hours and 2 days attempting thunderhead before success
grind = spending all the free time i've had spread over 3 days attempting ring of fire

if you look at my list, and are familiar with all these games, you'll see that i have successfully reduced my gaming grind over the past few years, and that i'm more than aquainted with the definition of grinding.

guild wars is a beautiful game
i love it to death
it is the least amount of grinding i have experienced
but there are a few sticky spots in the game that are definately a grind, and are extremely frustrating, and this thread is designed to bring that to the designer's attention

thank you all for flaming, agreeing, disagreeing...a 3 page thread is more likely to get their attention than a one page thread.
Spirit Firefly
Spirit Firefly
Frost Gate Guardian
• #56
wow i can't believe someone would take so much time over 1 post. Is this you English coursework assignment?
Spirit Firefly
Spirit Firefly
Frost Gate Guardian
• #57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siren
Romac, no offense, but...



Just so I completely understand here...

You have about 4 hours each day to play GuildWars, and you would get up at 5 am (5 am, as in "5 am it's still dark out and birds haven't started chirping") to squeeze in an extra 2 hours. So, you're getting up even earlier than most adults would get up for work on a regular work day...so you can play a video game--an online RPG at that.

When you have a weekend to yourself, you buy beer, then sit on your ass for 3 days and play GuildWars, going from Level 15 to 20 over the span of those 3 days. Presumably, the only times you would be out of the chair is to eat and take care of bowel movements. If I'm missing anything there, please mention it.

So, here we have you getting up before dawn--before your daughter and wife are awake, correct?--when you admittedly squeeze in an extra 2 hours, you powergaming an entire 3-day weekend when your wife takes your daughter on a vacation (I presume you weren't invited along?)...I don't think you're as far from the label of "hardcore gamer" as you may think.

EDIT: And really, I think there's a huge, huge, huge mislabeling going on around here concerning "casual" vs "hardcore" players.

I always find it amusing when someone labels his or herself a "casual" player, but it's clear to anyone here that person easily plays upwards of 25 to 30 hours a week, and then they bitch and moan about how much time they're spending in the game, claiming that they're "too casual" for the game, or some asinine rubbish like that.

I'm not sure how much time the "hardcore" players regularly invest in this game and others of its ilk, but I'd be inclined to say that 25-30 hours a week is much more "hardcore" than "casual."

So, that comes down to a player whining about how much time they're investing into this game, when the reality of the situation is they're the ones dumping all of that time into the game. "I'm a casual gamer!" they cry...but have logged 35 hours into one character already. "Casual" my ass. lol

And the fact that they complain about it doesn't seem very "casual" either. Would a truly casual player whine and bitch so much? I certainly don't, lol, and I don't see many truly casual players being so hurt and/or emotionally traumatized by the amount of time they're putting into the game.

Why? Because they understand it's just a game. It's not reality; it's not life. It's a game.

So, I think the general approach regarding "casual" vs "hardcore" is fundamentally flawed. Amount of time played is a factor, I'm sure and I don't doubt time played factors in here, but I think the truest determining factor is not quantitative at all; it's qualitative. The factor we need to consider the most here is approach (the mentality).

And the fact that the most vocal complainers here (at least, the majority of them) clearly belong to the powergamer/hardcore/powergrinder mentality is testament to there's more in the labeling than merely time spent playing, because if it were not for the mentality, there simply wouldn't be as many people investing so much time, and thus, simply wouldn't be so many "OMFG teh Devs totali lyed11!1!!" type of posts.

Ultimately, I think people need to get honest with themselves here, because many who label themselves as "casual" gamers really are not in the least: their posts, their time played, their game progress, but most importantly, their approach to the game, clearly point to something more than "I'm just going to hop on every now and again."

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Spirit Firefly
Spirit Firefly
Frost Gate Guardian
• #58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siren
Romac, no offense, but...



Just so I completely understand here...

You have about 4 hours each day to play GuildWars, and you would get up at 5 am (5 am, as in "5 am it's still dark out and birds haven't started chirping") to squeeze in an extra 2 hours. So, you're getting up even earlier than most adults would get up for work on a regular work day...so you can play a video game--an online RPG at that.

When you have a weekend to yourself, you buy beer, then sit on your ass for 3 days and play GuildWars, going from Level 15 to 20 over the span of those 3 days. Presumably, the only times you would be out of the chair is to eat and take care of bowel movements. If I'm missing anything there, please mention it.

So, here we have you getting up before dawn--before your daughter and wife are awake, correct?--when you admittedly squeeze in an extra 2 hours, you powergaming an entire 3-day weekend when your wife takes your daughter on a vacation (I presume you weren't invited along?)...I don't think you're as far from the label of "hardcore gamer" as you may think.

EDIT: And really, I think there's a huge, huge, huge mislabeling going on around here concerning "casual" vs "hardcore" players.

I always find it amusing when someone labels his or herself a "casual" player, but it's clear to anyone here that person easily plays upwards of 25 to 30 hours a week, and then they bitch and moan about how much time they're spending in the game, claiming that they're "too casual" for the game, or some asinine rubbish like that.

I'm not sure how much time the "hardcore" players regularly invest in this game and others of its ilk, but I'd be inclined to say that 25-30 hours a week is much more "hardcore" than "casual."

So, that comes down to a player whining about how much time they're investing into this game, when the reality of the situation is they're the ones dumping all of that time into the game. "I'm a casual gamer!" they cry...but have logged 35 hours into one character already. "Casual" my ass. lol

And the fact that they complain about it doesn't seem very "casual" either. Would a truly casual player whine and bitch so much? I certainly don't, lol, and I don't see many truly casual players being so hurt and/or emotionally traumatized by the amount of time they're putting into the game.

Why? Because they understand it's just a game. It's not reality; it's not life. It's a game.

So, I think the general approach regarding "casual" vs "hardcore" is fundamentally flawed. Amount of time played is a factor, I'm sure and I don't doubt time played factors in here, but I think the truest determining factor is not quantitative at all; it's qualitative. The factor we need to consider the most here is approach (the mentality).

And the fact that the most vocal complainers here (at least, the majority of them) clearly belong to the powergamer/hardcore/powergrinder mentality is testament to there's more in the labeling than merely time spent playing, because if it were not for the mentality, there simply wouldn't be as many people investing so much time, and thus, simply wouldn't be so many "OMFG teh Devs totali lyed11!1!!" type of posts.

Ultimately, I think people need to get honest with themselves here, because many who label themselves as "casual" gamers really are not in the least: their posts, their time played, their game progress, but most importantly, their approach to the game, clearly point to something more than "I'm just going to hop on every now and again."

that one just for the record
Spirit Firefly
Spirit Firefly
Frost Gate Guardian
• #59
heh what the hell.... i clearly have no idea what i'm doing it said page error please disregard anything i say starting now
Romac
Romac
Lion's Arch Merchant
• #60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siren
Ultimately, I think people need to get honest with themselves here, because many who label themselves as "casual" gamers really are not in the least: their posts, their time played, their game progress, but most importantly, their approach to the game, clearly point to something more than "I'm just going to hop on every now and again."
well when they add the term casual gamer to the dictionary we'll have something to go by...until then we'll have to suffer each other's definitions.

casual gamer to me has nothing to do with the intensity you play a game with, or your ability...the difference between a casual gamer and a hardcore gamer IMO is mainly time.

now how many hours per day makes you a 'casual gamer' is the question.

i'd say 4 hours per day is casual, but then i'm basing my opinion on my own mmo experiences which began with SWG. In SWG i played about 6 to 8 hours per day, and pulled some 12 hour stints on the weekends...i'd say that's pretty hardcore, but that's more than double the time i spend now.

i'm lucky to get 2 to 4 hours per day on weekdays, and sometimes less on the weekends...rarely more than that on the weekends, and often less. Some weekends go by and i barely get 2 hours in the whole weekend.

To get my 4 hours on a weekday i have to get up at 5am...sometimes i get up at 6 or 7 so that means i play 2 hours on those days.

so if you had to average it all up i'd probably say about 3 hours per day, including weekends.

3 hours per day is definately not 'hardcore' by my estimates, and i would say that even 4 hours per day is not hardcore either...especially when it's busted up into 2 hours from 5 to 7, one hour from 1 to 2, and another hour beween 6:30 and 7:30.

define me as you will, but i think it's pretty clear that i'm a casual gamer if time and not intensity is what defines a casual gamer.