High Level MM Build - Advice

Samueldg

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2005

Colorado

N/Mo

07 Mar 2006 at 17:28 - 81

I agree with manic smile..

Energy is the least of the MM's problems .. soul reaping is the apex for spell spamming.. minions are also super efficient for casting 15 ene for a horror and a 10-12 soul reap means a horror is dange near free.. minions are also almost totally free.. both defensively block.. provide equal damage ( two 13 lvl minions come close enough in damge to one horror for it to pretty much not matter.

if your making a fiend heavy army ene might get tight if you dont have good timing in making a fiend when something dies..
again its not a fault of the build its the person smashing the keys..

Wilheim Eversmann

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2005

07 Mar 2006 at 17:39 - 82

Could anyone give commend on my build?
N/Me
9 blood
16 death
9 soul reaping

Vamp Gaze, Offering of blood, awaken of blood or BR, BoM, V.S. Echo, Bone horror and fiend. i found it quite good and i could manage an big army easily, many ppl call me a good MM so does it a N/Me is more all arounded than a N/Mo? (no offence, just want to know) because they could do both SS and MM job with a good performance.
thx for any advice^^

Undead Shadowknight

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jan 2006

dallas

07 Mar 2006 at 18:39 - 83

Wilheim - I personally don't like your build because you have a lot of sacrificing spells. Esecially if you are using Awaken the Blood before using BoM, V.S., Offering, etc. You will basically kill yourself. Also, you have have a res signet etc in your build. Are you going to bring V.S. and echo? Cause if you echo V.S. you are going to lose 30% of your hp on just casting 2 spells. And with Vamp Gaze you have to get pretty close to your enemy to use it.

I still like a mix between curse and death but I am a N/M MM. Pretty simple to cast SS whenever you have time for extra dmg. Use purtid explosion or death nova for extra dmg as well. In Tombs Heal Area is really nice when running between groups and waiting for pulls etc.

Manic Smile

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

Hawaii

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08 Mar 2006 at 00:04 - 84

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilheim Eversmann

byteme!

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

On Earth

W/P

08 Mar 2006 at 00:39 - 85

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fates Monk

15 fresh minions are way more effective as a wall than 15 old minions that have been kept alive w/ HA. WRONG! YOU would have 15 fresh minions. I will have 15 fresh minions plus 15 other minions that I have managed to keep alive and near full hp if possible. (not exact figures but I think you get the idea)

bam23

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2006

08 Mar 2006 at 03:46 - 86

The only practical thing I see about keeping around a ton of minions is that the old ones will drop like flies the minute they start fighting, and give soul reaping bonuses more often.

wsmcasey

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2005

Right behind you.

HeRo

W/Rt

08 Mar 2006 at 15:16 - 87

Okay, I changed my second profession to ranger last night so I could try out healing spring and serpents quickness.

My Results:

I think Healing Spring is awesome!

5 points in (Healing) granted me an 80 point heal for (Heal Area)
5 points in (WS) granted me a 30 point heal ever 2 seconds for 10 seconds using (Healing Spring)
= 150 points of healing for the same energy cost. (worked great just before and after battles)

I don't think that Serpent's Quickness works with VS (sorry)

SQ reduces recharge times for your SKILLS, but VS is a SPELL. Has anyone confirmed that this works, because I think it doesn't. Maybe quickening zepher, but thats a really high energy cost and probably not managable.

Edit: Dark Bond is a better alternative to healing after using your sac spells imo.

I'll have to try this when I get home, but I'm wondering if I use 3 superior runes for a lower hp build and use darkbond, if the damage reduction will improve like it does on the 55hp builds using prot spirit. Anyone try this yet?

MasterThrawn

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2006

Gryffindor

08 Mar 2006 at 15:49 - 88

Wow - this has gotten a lot of good responses. Since starting this, I have switched to Mo secondary, and do not think I'll change for an MM build anyway. After they changed Offering of Blood to 20% sacrifice, there is not a much better choice. If you have to use it, cast it, than use your Heal Area, and your set. Soul Reaping takes care of almost all of my energy needs especially in Tombs or FOW, but you may need to use OoB, and 20% life loss is a lot on top of using your other sacrifice skills. With this setup, the monks don't even have to worry about me. I never need energy, almost never need heals (other then my HA), and Minions stay alive a long time. I love this build.

PlayTooMuch

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Feb 2006

08 Mar 2006 at 23:00 - 89

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterThrawn

Hmm - Enfeebling Blood - did not think of that one as being an MM skill, but that sounds interesting - now I would like to bring SS, but everyone was telling me Offering of Blood is what all the "good" MM's bring, in case they need energy... I'll have to try out some of these variations - oh and I meant Verata's Sacrifice in my build (always get those mixed up). Thanks for the tips! In tombs, it's not that common you'll run low on energy and need offering/blood.

Carinae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2005

Inside

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

09 Mar 2006 at 00:01 - 90

OoB is there for the rare times when you need energy now and can't wait.

Example: If you need to cast VS right now, or raise a minion where corpses are highly contested.

Samueldg

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2005

Colorado

N/Mo

09 Mar 2006 at 05:08 - 91

I could understand OOB in pvp.. hell I could even understand it if your running a blood based build..

but why oh why dump points in blood when you are wearing a DEATH SCAR PATTERN?

doesnt that mean you should be contentrating on death?

you know soulreaping works.. your party is all about moving ahead and gettin you more ene via soulreaping.. why spread yourself thin?

soulreaping =1 pint of ene per death per point..

OOB is what 5 to cast PLUS you sac 10% life.. and get 8-20 back.. meaning you will probably get what 13 back with 8 in blood? basically you spend ene to make a little bit back..

what about just kill a monster... put all those point you where squeezing into blood in reaping and enjoy the ene stream.. CAST MINIONS DURING COMBAT...

stop using -1 regen stuff and rock on..

max blood I could see the reasoning but with max death your cutting something else that works BETTER to be able to use that elite.. put the point in soulreaping.. as a mm your never short of things dieing.. why why why?

if you MUST have an elite toss on grenths balance.. thats a fun one ( great way to backhand a grasp on you..) and it doesnt cost you any attrib points to use..

I totally dont get any need for ene from a MM..

even at 10 soulreap I have never had a problem having the ene to make a minion out of everything around.. I just dont get the "NEED" people have to spread a build out into so many areas..

16 death
7-8 heal for self sustaining
the REST in soulreaping ( generally 10-13)

Carinae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2005

Inside

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

09 Mar 2006 at 05:40 - 92

Frost

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2005

W/R

09 Mar 2006 at 06:14 - 93

Chunky Monky

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2006

09 Mar 2006 at 06:26 - 94

I like to bring deathly swarm when I MM also

Manic Smile

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

Hawaii

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09 Mar 2006 at 07:25 - 95

Quote:

Originally Posted by wsmcasey

But at 8 Healing HA heals for 110hp near instantly, add in the fact that you can spam BotM with it. BotM > HA > BotM > OoB > HA

122(127)+110+122(127)+110 = enough

Quote: Originally Posted by wsmcasey Edit: Dark Bond is a better alternative to healing after using your sac spells imo. How do you use Dark Bond to heal yourself? Typo?

Quote:

Originally Posted by wsmcasey

I'll have to try this when I get home, but I'm wondering if I use 3 superior runes for a lower hp build and use darkbond, if the damage reduction will improve like it does on the 55hp builds using prot spirit. Anyone try this yet? Dark Bond works like Life Barrier or Life Bonds so by the description I would think no but I haven't tried 3 sup runes. The reason I suggest DB is that it allows for me to run two superior runes while still allowing me to soak a reasonable ammount of hate. Just got to watch out for that shatter enchantment while being ganked.

Manic Smile

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

Hawaii

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09 Mar 2006 at 07:37 - 96

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frost

I run a N/me minion master, simply for the fact that i'm lazy to switch profession when a SS necro is required. That way i can find a party faster.
I've never had a problem with MM before as a N/me though. Anyone good shouldn't have a problem with MM without a secondary skill. Only because the monk was willing to heal you < every 30 seconds. In one FA run I told my gf(healer monk) not to heal the MM outside of battle and I didn't either(bonder), though we did remove hexes and conditions which did heal some as my gf is a boon monk, and still you should have seen how hard a time he was having...was at half life most the time and died twice...

Manic Smile

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

Hawaii

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09 Mar 2006 at 07:53 - 97

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samueldg

doesnt that mean you should be contentrating on death?

Because death caps at 16...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samueldg you know soulreaping works.. your party is all about moving ahead and gettin you more ene via soulreaping.. why spread yourself thin? downtime/emergencies/flexability

Quote: Originally Posted by Samueldg soulreaping =1 pint of ene per death per point.. soulreaping =1 pint of ene per death per point

Quote: Originally Posted by Samueldg OOB is what 5 to cast PLUS you sac 10% life.. and get 8-20 back.. meaning you will probably get what 13 back with 8 in blood? basically you spend ene to make a little bit back.. 20% life...15energy back at 9 Blood so 10 energy at the cost of ~72 life

Yes that is still *uber*

Quote: Originally Posted by Samueldg what about just kill a monster... put all those point you where squeezing into blood in reaping and enjoy the ene stream.. CAST MINIONS DURING COMBAT... same reasons...Great MMing isn't about raising minnions solely it's about keeping minnions up on the margin...i.e. while doing all the other things a MM needs to...the balance of 20 minnions while raising 5 more and healing yourself and healing the monk being ganked...that is the beauty of OoB with /mo

Quote: Originally Posted by Samueldg stop using -1 regen stuff and rock on.. /confusing

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samueldg

max blood I could see the reasoning but with max death your cutting something else that works BETTER to be able to use that elite.. put the point in soulreaping.. as a mm your never short of things dieing.. why why why? ...uh yea...I'm really not...unless you mean like 20 more life from HA...2 more energy from dead monsters that refill my 52 energy anyway...think about it

~5 monsters = full energy at soul reaping of 10
~4 monsters = full energy at soul reaping of 12

where is this huge gain?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samueldg

if you MUST have an elite toss on grenths balance.. thats a fun one ( great way to backhand a grasp on you..) and it doesnt cost you any attrib points to use.. when Factions comes out I intend to try out that Flesh Golem but that's nothing but a pipe dream at the moment...

as fo GB...why? 150 dmg or so max when 1 minnion could outstrip that in 10 attacks or so on average....

if I was going to run an alternate Elite it would be Martyer in conjuncion with Infuse Condition

and if you don't like OoB Essence bond makes an awsome non elite alternative for s&g

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samueldg

I totally dont get any need for ene from a MM.. It's not the need for energy...it's the need for energy when you need it

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samueldg

even at 10 soulreap I have never had a problem having the ene to make a minion out of everything around.. I just dont get the "NEED" people have to spread a build out into so many areas.. what else would you do with all those skill points? Besides I've been running two sup runes for all the saccing anyway for a very long while...i'm in no real shortage for skill points

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samueldg

16 death
7-8 heal for self sustaining
the REST in soulreaping ( generally 10-13) 13 soul reaping is such a loss on the margin

Manic Smile

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

Hawaii

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09 Mar 2006 at 07:59 - 98

Quote:

Originally Posted by bam23

The only practical thing I see about keeping around a ton of minions is that the old ones will drop like flies the minute they start fighting, and give soul reaping bonuses more often. Give the SS staggered energy boosts > MM needs as by the time you have that large an army up the dieing monsters and soul reaping almost always keep you filled

5 more Fiends = 5 to 25 * 5 more damage...it can make a big difference on how fast a mob is cleared and it makes for a nice wall when you're not running a book trick

Raziel665

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2005

Defenders of the Blackblade [DotB]

N/Mo

09 Mar 2006 at 11:43 - 99

Now I could be wrong here, but I dont see why Healing Spring is so great.

For Healing Spring to work, your minnions need to stay in 1 area, for 10 seconds, in order to heal more then Heal Area, while Heal Area is instant and way more usefull when you need a quick heal while running.

But anyway, lets say after a battle, you want to heal you army cause your group is moving to the next mob, you have to stand there for 10 secs to heal them back to full, giving you a 10 second delay before you reach the next group, in that time, your minnions are gaining more natural health degen. Basicly, making them weaker before the next battle even starts.
Another thing why I prefer Heal Area is that you can use it during travel, you only have to pause for 2 secs to let your army cath up, cast it, and cath up with your group instead of waiting for 10 secs for Healing Spring to do its work, delaying your group even more.

Your goal is to keep your minnions alive as long as possible and to get the most possible damage out of them, so getting them to the next battle as fast as possible and healing them in the shortest amount of time.

Another small thing I like about Heal Area is that when stuff gets chaotic and the monks are having a hard time, I can run up to various team members and cast Heal Area on myself and them.

Manic Smile

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

Hawaii

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09 Mar 2006 at 11:50 - 100

it's not...it's just the only alternative...and allows you to utilize other ranger skills

btw...did you read the posts, you repeat many of the points made by many different posters

Raziel665

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2005

Defenders of the Blackblade [DotB]

N/Mo

09 Mar 2006 at 12:12 - 101

With so many different MM topics about builds and if Heal Area kills minnions faster, it can be hard to remember what you did read and what you didnt read, so I thought I'd just throw it all out.

Manic Smile

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

Hawaii

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09 Mar 2006 at 12:27 - 102

lol...fair enough...but yea I agree with your points

TKDSamdan

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Dec 2005

Waterloo, Iowa

N/Mo

09 Mar 2006 at 19:33 - 103

I think everyone presented some awesome points here, but it has reached that time where everything is getting repeated. I personally run a N/Mo build with my new MM (only lvl 17) because I don't have V.S. yet, and BoTM and HA are acceptable for the moment. Having a hard rez is nice, especially working with henchies, but isn't always necessary (Granted, I would rather be with a hard rez than a used rez sig when I need it). I will definitely try out different class combos to see what works best for me. I think that's the key element in this whole discussion. What works best for you? Some of us enjoy and use the Monk secondary well, while others despise the Monk secondary and use, say, a Mesmer or Ranger secondary for even better results (for them personally).

This has been stated before. Everyone is different, and everyone has different playing styles. I think that everyone NEEDS to play with other classes as their secondary and not be afraid to take chances. Sure, you can try builds that have been suggested here, but who is to say that is the best one for you? Don't flame other people because they have a different build than you and you disagree with that fact. Recognize that they have something to offer and try to learn from them. I get very tired of people saying things like, "your build sucks smart-ass," or, "you're making an ass of yourself," because it just isn't necessary.

And finally, in the end, it's just a game. Relax and go with it. Who cares really? Not me. We play for fun and a good challenge.

Peace

Eve

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2005

Fortune Cookie [LucK]

10 Mar 2006 at 17:39 - 104

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

This is a ridiculous statement and I can only encourage you to re-read the thread to understand why. I could say "If you don't have Heal Area on you skillbar, then you're not a real MM", and it would be closer to the truth.

N/Mo might not be the BEST build, but it's the most optimal anyone's discovered yet. The difference is not small. Why do you have a Mesmer secondary? Are you not using it at all?

Have you tried N/Mo? I have tried N/Me and N/E and N/Mo and N/R. I'm looking forward to trying N/Rt.

Step outside Beetletun and see how far you get solo. Not very far? Either sacced yourself to death, or had to skip a minion heal to regen didn't ya?

Now USE that experience to improve your SF build. Don't be a drain on your monk(s). Use soloing as a gauge to become self-sufficient.

Monks are there to repair DAMAGE, not saccing. If you're using a monk to counteract sacrifices, your doing the same thing as crappy Elementalists who can't manage their own energy and NEED a Necro Battery there to in order to do their JOB!

There are many ways to be a MM. But the whole point of this thread, is that N/Mo provides a serious advantage that the others do not. This is one of the few rare cases in GW where one particular build clearly IS stronger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

OoB is there for the rare times when you need energy now and can't wait.

Example: If you need to cast VS right now, or raise a minion where corpses are highly contested.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Well, I explained why. Re-read my last post.

I normally run:

9 Blood
16 Death
9 SR
7 Healing

But I'm trying Manic Smiles suggestion of double superiors, so now I'm:

8 Blood
16 Death
11 SR
8 Healing I beg to differ what you said. You seemed to be sterotyping MM as necro/monks only. Soul reaping plays a important role in a MM and i guess the experienced MM knows that by now. I shall explain what i mean by the importance of soul reaping here and also that monks are not necessary the optimal secondary class for necros too.

For example necro uses fiends and horrors:
Fiends uses 25 energy to summon and Horrors uses 15 energy to summon. Given such a number, a ideal soul reap number will be 12/13. With a high soul reaping I dont see the need for OOB. Why you may ask?

Common PVE scenario if soul reap is at 13:
Monsters dies (13 energy back from soul reap) -> Necro summons Fiends -> Fiend die (13 energy back from soul reap) -> Monster dies (13 energy gained again) -> Necro summons Horrors -> Horror dies (13 energy gained again)

Lets isolate one cycle:
Fiend die (13 energy gained) -> Next Monster dies -> (13 energ gained) -> 26 energy gained (more than enough energy to cast summon fiend/horror and if you are summon horror while waiting fiend to recharge, excess energy can be used to cast veratas or other spells)

Ok once you understand the cycle, note that once the initial start up costs in terms of energy of first few summons are invested. Everytime your party kills one monster (corpse for you to use) and a fiend/horror dies you have 26 energy back. It becomes a cycle of regaining and investing your energy again. So what I am saying here is that energy needed for the next fiend or horror doesnt come from your energy regen at all. It comes from you soul reaping and hence there is no need for OOB. 26 Energy per cycle is more than enough to summon a fiend, and if necro uses it to summon a horror, the excess can be used for

Soloing is not the only guage for a good MM and Monk is not necessary the optimal secondary build for a MM too. Running MM in PVE depends on suitations. I have run MM with necro/ele with much success too (And no i dont use minion bomb build). With Glyph of Renewal GoR (Ele Elite) I am able to maintain 25+ Summons most of the times in new tombs green farming. Sometimes I dont see necro/monks doing as well as I do. As for the arguement for self healing, i bring along soul feast as there is no lack of corpse in new tombs/uw.

GoR - For 15 seconds, your next spell instantly recharge.
Verata's Sacrifice - Sacrifice10% of maximum health. For 8-18 seconds, all undead allies gain 10 health regeneration. All conditions are removed from those allies and transfered to you. At death 16, its 21 secs.

So whenever I use GoR before I use Veratas (lasts 21 secs), Veratas recharges immediately. It takes 15 secs for GoR to recharge. Once Verata's is up after 15 secs, use GoR and Verata's again. The previous Verata's even have NOT ended and you are able to cast it again. So almost 10HP regen constantly at any time. 10HP regen -> 10 Blips -> 20HP per secs for the duration of veratas (300 HP for 15 secs GoR recharge time). If you use the cycle of GoR and Verata's sacrifice, you should be able to maintain the Verata's up all the time. All summons are experiencing Verata's Sacrifice, but they will still die due to the increasing degen of their HP over time. However using this i am certain that a MM can easily maintain 20+ summons at any one time in the new tombs/uw farming.

I would like all MM to test what they like to use and experience what is most optimal for yourself. I personally believe it is based on your preference, based on the situation and depends on how the party plays too.

Note I am running necro/ele in these pics, they are fiends and horrors:

Carinae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2005

Inside

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

10 Mar 2006 at 22:57 - 105

Eve

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2005

Fortune Cookie [LucK]

11 Mar 2006 at 05:02 - 106

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Your scenario is wrong. The point of N/Mo is to keep them alive as long a possible. This not only delays the second boon from SR due to the minions death, but also consumes additional energy along the way.

I am running with 11 SR as it is. So 11 isn't enough, but 13 is ok? Come on.

Offering isn't required, but it is on-demand energy and helps in crisis situations. Well, the point I am trying to make here is that sterotyping MM as necro/monk is not necessary. I believe that other secondary classes are able to do the job as well. As I posted earlier on, GoR+Verata's Sacrifice works fine for me and some other MMs. As for soul reaping, I guess 11 is fine but as you can see from my pictures, 13 is ideal for my playstyle. I do like to emphasize that what sort of build and secondary class is situational and based your playstyle and preference. It is not necessary to put others down if they do not use necro/monks just because one think its optimal.

Manic Smile

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

Hawaii

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11 Mar 2006 at 08:34 - 107

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eve

Well, the point I am trying to make here is that sterotyping MM as necro/monk is not necessary. I believe that other secondary classes are able to do the job as well. As I posted earlier on, GoR+Verata's Sacrifice works fine for me and some other MMs. As for soul reaping, I guess 11 is fine but as you can see from my pictures, 13 is ideal for my playstyle. I do like to emphasize that what sort of build and secondary class is situational and based your playstyle and preference. It is not necessary to put others down if they do not use necro/monks just because one think its optimal.

It isn't their play style that I have issue with but their blanket, incorrect statements made with a superior attitude...I'm not even going to bother going back through and quoting the posts I am refering to as I think you can find them yourselves. Any honest discussion brought forth without attitude, I feel I have responded to with an honest attempt at seeing both sides. But for the sake of sorting out differing opinions/playstyles from efficient vs. inefficient builds lets play Greek logic.

A. We are discussing the Minnion Master as it pretains to PvE.

B. The purpose of the Minnion Master is to: (in decending order)
1.) Get up the highest level minnions possible
2.) Keep the minnions alive as long as possible
3.) Get up as many minnions as possible
4.) Do as much as he can to keep himself alive
5.) Get up the minnions as fast as possible
6.) Provide as little drain on the rest of the party as possible
7.) Provided as much aditional party support as possible

I feel we can all agree that the ability to raise the highest level minnion possible belongs on the top of this list...not one poster has suggested we use Necro as a sub class and with good reason. Minnion level effects minnion damage, life and indirectly, the ease at which a minnion can be maintained over prolonged periods of time. < 16 Death is simply not a real consideration for a Minnion Master at this time in PvE.

I think it is clear from the responses/arguments/posts/flames/rubbish that here in lies the biggest disagreement with what a Minnion Master is/does. I think clear imperical data can be gathered to show that under any case an equally skilled /mo Minnion Master can keep alive his minnions longer then a equally skilled non-/mo Minnion Master. The issue then lies in whether or not keeping the minnions alive the longest belongs in the number 2 position or if it is relevant/significant at all. So why don't we try focusing our discussion here. How does this sound to community interested in this? Lets start writing a real guide with real information...be it of /mo or /whatever but with facts and educated, supported opinion instead of just watered down bs.

Obvioulsy as it is ordered now it lends strongly to the /mo > /ra > /e or /me > /rest but perhaps we can seperate those that feel the order is different and hence the ranking of efficient sub orders would be different from those that simply do not understand what they are doing.

thisissayantan

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Sep 2005

E/R

12 Mar 2006 at 18:52 - 108

LokiCai

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2005

N/Mo

20 Mar 2006 at 05:37 - 109

Taste of death will keep you from embarassing yourself in tight situations. You don't want to be killed when there are 10+ bone fiend/bone horros around you and see them turning against your team. Offering of blood is a waste of energy and time, not to mention the points that you have to put into blood. It takes 15 seconds to recharge and only allows you to animate one more bone fiend/horror at the cost of your Hp. 16 death, 11 soul reaping and the rest into healing with healing area. With healing area, BoM and VS, you can maintain your minions as long as you like. But once into battle, they still die fast if the degen has reached certain number. Tainted flesh(E) or rotten flesh is much more effective at lvl 16 death for attack. The disease spread out really fast.

Manic Smile

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

Hawaii

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20 Mar 2006 at 10:49 - 110

*sigh* At least kinda read the prior posts...

Quote:

Originally Posted by LokiCai

Taste of death will keep you from embarassing yourself in tight situations.

ToD ranges from pointless to just plain stupid...you're saccing a minnion and an additional skill slot to a spell that isn't needed at all...especailly with /mo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LokiCai

You don't want to be killed when there are 10+ bone fiend/bone horros around you and see them turning against your team.

If 110 life HA can't help you(8 in healing) then 420+ health sure isn't...hell I don't even have 420 health normally. 100 health I would say is the bare minimum for HA to be resonable to counter act the MMs saccing...OoB or not. 100 health is 1/4 to 1/3 of your life, if you are being ganked to where HA can't keep you alive long enough to kite the mob then either you should be getting some help of the monk persuasion or your party has problems and you're going to die anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LokiCai

Offering of blood is a waste of energy and time, not to mention the points that you have to put into blood..

Where are you going to put the points anyway? It's not about energy as it is about energy when you need it. As for time...5-->15 energy vs. waiting for 10 more energy to naturally regen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LokiCai

It takes 15 seconds to recharge and only allows you to animate one more bone fiend/horror at the cost of your Hp.

You don't need the life as you're a back line player, or should be and you shouldn't be spamming it to where you ever really have to wait for the recharge.

Quote:

This is a funny paragraph. I encourage everyone to read it repeatedly.

So what you're saying is:
We are lying, blind, arrogant pricks because we are making empirical arguments that a self-healing minion master is a superior solution to general purpose minion mastering.

And why is this so? Because you say so, of course.

At this point people are going to have to make actual cases for or against a given secondary. There are actual mathematical and logical arguments presented in this thread in favor of self-healing. I find it very difficult to discuss your counter-argument of "Nu-uh!".

Quote:

Originally Posted by LokiCai

16 death, 11 soul reaping and the rest into healing with healing area. No argument with the 16 death but when is 11 soul reaping ever going to be needed where 10 is not enough?

---Dead Mobs----Net Energy Gain----Horrors-------Fiends---
SR---------------10-----11-------10---11------10-----11
---------1--------10-----11--------0----0--------0------0
---------2--------20-----22--------1----1--------0------0
---------3--------30-----33--------2----2--------1------1
---------4--------40-----44--------2----2--------1------1
---------5--------50-----55--------3----3--------2------2
---------6--------60-----66--------4----4--------2------2
---------7--------70-----77-------4----5--------2------3

granted this isn't considering the less expensive spells on your bar you could use more often inbetween but they aren't really a breaker for a MM...at least I don't have problems having enough energy for them off of just natural regen

Quote:

Originally Posted by LokiCai

With healing area, BoM and VS, you can maintain your minions as long as you like. But once into battle, they still die fast if the degen has reached certain number. agreed for the most part

Quote:

Originally Posted by LokiCai

Tainted flesh(E) or rotten flesh is much more effective at lvl 16 death for attack. The disease spread out really fast. meh, waste for the reasons stated before...

Manic Smile

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

Hawaii

----- 15^50[Rare] ---- Alliance: ----- [SMS] -----

20 Mar 2006 at 11:18 - 111

Quote:

Originally Posted by thisissayantan

I use N/ME for my Minion Master. I have been told by many traditional peeps, that it's a very wierd combo. But N/Me MM has it's advantages.

16 Death magic
13 soul reaping
rest in inspiration

Echo{E}
Animate Bone Fiend
Death Nova
Blood of the Master
Verata's Sacrifice
Power Drain
Channeling
Ether Lord/Inspired Hex

Altho it is not the easiest of builds to play, I have found it very useful. pvp or pve?

Energy is never enough of a problem for a MM to need Channeling and when you do need energy Channeling isn't going to help as the only really spammed skills (4>1) are the raising skills.

Not much point to Death Nova in PvE as most pugs are too disorganized to get any help from it and to maximize the benfit you'd need to run Minnions>Horrors.

Ether Lord isn't going to shut much down alone and you don't need the regen as well as getting a block of energy is more useful then the 6ish pips of regen you'd have...as well as hexes being unreliable.

Inspired Hex is just not really nessisary or useful for the most part...let the bonder run it as to not water your skill set down to much.

Power Drain is useful and does give you energy but not needed enough to give up over other more useful skills...be you sub monk or not as well as it's 25 sec recharge time.

You have no self heal and even if you echo verata's I guarentee I can keep my minnions up longer then you with a /mo.

Bel Ebih

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2005

Puerto Rico

Crusaders Of Valhalla [Odin]

20 Mar 2006 at 13:15 - 112

Seriously, N/Mo is just as good a choice as any, but it is not superior in anyway imho. I've been running MM for quite a long time and have played all variations of it. Atm, the one I use the most is N/E when in groups. N/Mo is ideal for soloing because of the self-heal, so that's what I use that for. I have no problem keeping and maintaining 20+ minions with either. I mean, keeping a large army isn't dependant on your secondary, but your overall skill as a MM. So, if one in particular suits your play style, fine. But stating with an attitude that your's is superior is simply blind arrogance, making you look like quite a prick. Those with 'impirical' (learn how to spell it before using it) evidence are just trying to validate their arrogance with something other than 'because I say so'. It impresses no one.

One comment I found really funny while reading this though, is the one about how 'most noob MM's are N/E's' and how 'N/E are the W/Mo's of MM'. Funny because N/Mo is what most people run, especially in the early stages of the game, for the same reason Warriors run W/Mo: self-heal. If you want to keep pressure off the heal Monk, fine, but thinking you're superior just because you can self-heal is the equivalent of a wammo with Healing Hands in RA.

MasterThrawn

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2006

Gryffindor

20 Mar 2006 at 15:47 - 113

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bel Ebih

but thinking you're superior just because you can self-heal is the equivalent of a wammo with Healing Hands in RA.

I'm not saying N/Mo is better, but it's not only a self heal, it's a heal for your minions as well. THAT is a huge benefit. I use Verata's, BoM, and than Heal Area - keeps them going a long, long time. I played through almost the entire game as an N/E, and liked it a lot, but am now an N/Mo because I find it more versatile. I learned a lot from this thread.

LokiCai

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2005

N/Mo

20 Mar 2006 at 16:18 - 114

Taste of Death is not "Stupid", because shit did happen. In an ideal world, your minions/pets/warriors shall take the hit, not you. But I have been a ranger and a MM (for 100+ times now), it happened to me twice when I tried all these new build (especially the OoB (quite stupid, actually)) and I saw a MM died when 6/8 party members are still alive and a bunch of minions are around. It is beyound embarrassing, I can tell you, after you been rebirth (res) by the other team members. Now, in a typical Tomb build, there is one and only Monk, and you expect him to be super healer to take care of everybody? What if he is also under attack and is running for his life?

bobrath

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

Texas

Scouts of Tyria

20 Mar 2006 at 17:55 - 115

Carinae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2005

Inside

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

20 Mar 2006 at 19:03 - 116

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bel Ebih

Seriously, N/Mo is just as good a choice as any, but it is not superior in anyway imho.

There's what 5+ pages, in this thread alone, presenting angle after angle of why N/Mo (and even N/R) is a BETTER Minion Master than the other options. Stating it's "not superior in anyway" is simply wrong (because it's unequivocally superior in certain categories at least) and more importantly it isn't good enough of an argument to change anyone's mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bel Ebih

I mean, keeping a large army isn't dependant on your secondary, but your overall skill as a MM.

Raising a large army only requires N/. For the most part that's true, but having the right tools helps a lot. In terms of maintaining an army, N/Mo and N/R have the right tools. The others use crutches to limp home.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bel Ebih

But stating with an attitude that your's is superior is simply blind arrogance, making you look like quite a prick. Those with 'impirical' (learn how to spell it before using it) evidence are just trying to validate their arrogance with something other than 'because I say so'. It impresses no one.

Originally Posted by Bel Ebih

One comment I found really funny while reading this though, is the one about how 'most noob MM's are N/E's' and how 'N/E are the W/Mo's of MM'. Funny because N/Mo is what most people run, especially in the early stages of the game, for the same reason Warriors run W/Mo: self-heal. If you want to keep pressure off the heal Monk, fine, but thinking you're superior just because you can self-heal is the equivalent of a wammo with Healing Hands in RA.

No. It isn't.

Are W/Mo's packing Heal Area? So they are using a different self-heal? (Mending?) So, it's apple and oranges isn't it?

Lets calculate some figures for N/E maintaining GoR+VS.
Assume two uses of BotM per minute.

GoR = 5 energy plus VS costs every 15 seconds.

GoR+VS burns 60 energy plus ~288 health per minute.
BotM burns 20 energy plus ~96 health per minute.

Total just for maintaining the army, not including raising costs: 80 energy plus ~384 health per minute. In other words: 4 pips of energy regen PLUS 3.2 pips of health degen continuously while you have minions.

Now, as N/E, you do get to use GoLE with high SR, so energy isn't really a problem, but you are taking a HUGE penalty just to keep VS up for an extra 9 seconds.

Now, N/Mo's turn (similar numbers exist for N/R)
Assume 8 healing, and two uses of BotM+HA per minute.

VS burns 20 energy plus ~144 health per minute.
BotM+HA burns 40 energy and the MM GAINS ~124 health per minute, PLUS nearby Minions gain 464 health per minute, even when they are at full degen.

So, compared to maintenance costs for N/E we have +20 energy/minute and are effectively NEUTRAL in health.

PLUS having a 110 point self-and-minion heal on demand.

VERSUS spending ~384 health/min, 20 energy/min, half minions-healing power, and either ToD/Monk as your healing just to keep VS up for an extra 9 seconds.

N/Mo and N/R....simply....are....BETTER.

Yukito Kunisaki

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2005

Chicago, IL

W/N

20 Mar 2006 at 20:29 - 117

Can't we all just get along? lol

I run a n/e and I do NOT follow anyone's rules on how to play a 'single' style...

Unlike the cookie cutter n/x, my build was designed to kill about 3x faster than any minion army. The cost? Longevity.

I'm lucky if my minions last to the 3rd battle, but by battle 2, I have new ones so it's no big deal.

What do I do?

Taste of Death Nova combo.

Use your teammates and Deathly Swarm to bring down some bodies...
Raise minions [not horrors] so that you double your corpse count.
Cast Death Nova on them. At 16 death, it HURTS...
Then Taste of Death. You'll get a nice dose of hp and energy in the explosion as well as more dead bodies...

Why is it that minions HAVE to live? Can't a master of Death just kill things like some rampant whirling dervish of chaos?

My secondary is Ice Elementalist. Thereby becoming a true "Disciple of Grenth" so to speak...

What the hell would I use ice for? To snare enemies so that my minions can catch up to them and blow up in their faces... Or so that I can run away like the little pansy caster I am so my teammates can deal with the problem.

What's nice is that whether it's a teammate or a foe, any death to me is 2 death novas worth in hp, energy, and damage...

kaldak

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2006

20 Mar 2006 at 20:58 - 118

Yukito, thats a bomber build you're describing. It certainly can be quite effective, but its not quite the same thing as an MM build designed to build a fighting (as opposed to explosive) force.

Bel Ebih

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2005

Puerto Rico

Crusaders Of Valhalla [Odin]

20 Mar 2006 at 22:55 - 119

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

... snip...

At this point people are going to have to make actual cases for or against a given secondary. There are actual mathematical and logical arguments presented in this thread in favor of self-healing. I find it very difficult to discuss your counter-argument of "Nu-uh!".

... snip...

*Lookie! Numbers! I'm right and you're wrong because I'm throwing around meaningless numbers! Yay me! Aren't I special!?*

See that's the thing. All that 'mathematical and logical' BS means absolutely NOTHING when it comes down to real practice. I can raise and maintain just as large a minion army, and with equal effictiveness, with my N/E as you with a N/Mo. I can also do it with any secondary or no secondary at all (pure Necro build). Yet you, and a few others, seem to just be trying to make it a fact that if you're not running N/Mo for MM, then you're a nub and can never aspire to be as great as you, because you, of course, are the best.

I've always been of the opinion that being dependant on self-heals (when not soloing), no matter what you're playing, is one of the biggest crutches many people never overcome in both PvE and PvP. But you know what? If your thing is to be 'self-sufficient' then more power to you. I'm not gonna go trying to make my opinion an absolute truth. I'm not that arrogant.

So as far as my 'counter-argument', you completely missed my point. I'm not making a case for a particular secondary, I make a case for the player. In my opinion, if the player is actually a good MM, all he/she needs is the summons, VS, and BotM. Anything else just comes down to preferance on how to complement it, but it has no real significant impact on wether or not a large army can be raised and maintained.

Basicaly, those 5+ pages of empirical, numerical, and logical 'evidence' you're so proud of completely crumbles into a pile of meaningless bs when, in practice, people who do not meet your standard of 'the best' build for MM, can do just as good a job, if not better than you.

Oh yeah...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

All I can say is that N/E is the W/Mo of necromancers! You're the one that made the ridiculous comparison between MM's and wammos I was commenting on, so the apples and oranges are all your's.

LokiCai

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2005

N/Mo

21 Mar 2006 at 00:21 - 120

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobrath

Sorry, but in the tombs... if a MM is doing his job the monk is the most bored person on the map. All they have to do is regen the puller occasionaly and feed the self saccing necros. Neither of which is a "super healer".

If the monk is running for his life... why is no one helping him and pulling back at the same time? Lets not be too self important now.

Yes things happen, but experienced MMs know that the worst place for them to be is anywhere near the front lines. Trigger your minions forward and then back off.

Minions are higher aggro priority then players (ignoring dp heavy or 55- players). By ToDing one you're doing nothing but giving the grasps a worse for your team choice. The most effective tactic I've used in breakthroughs is to raise a quick horror or fiend (whichever is avail) from the recently deceased pet/ally and watch the grasp switch off chasing. Good teams can peal aggro off onto summons. (BTW death nova makes this tactic even better - one for the ally going down and a second on the summon)

The *last* thing I want to do as a MM in the tombs is reduce the meat shield.

ToD is great for bombing. Bombing is bad in Tombs. ToD is bad in tombs. You seemed so sure of yourself. Of course, if everyone is doing their job right, the Necro shall never be the "Hit Target", and the Monk shall never heal anybody but himself? (The MM does not need heal either, since first of all, he never got attacked according to your logic, secondly, Heal Area shall be plenty). But the truth is I did see Necro died while surrounded by his own minions. Read my paragraph more carefully, I never suggested to use ToD while you don't need it, it is the last resort to keep yourself from being killed and watching your minions turning against your party members and then everybody just quit because they were disgusted. What's more important, sacrificing one minion or have yourself killed and losing all minions? Most of time, I never need to use ToD if I went out with a great team and everything is as planned, but maybe one out of 10 times, the ToD would allow me to kill one minion to save myself and all other minions while continue the mission.