High Level MM Build - Advice
Samueldg
I agree with manic smile..
Energy is the least of the MM's problems .. soul reaping is the apex for spell spamming.. minions are also super efficient for casting 15 ene for a horror and a 10-12 soul reap means a horror is dange near free.. minions are also almost totally free.. both defensively block.. provide equal damage ( two 13 lvl minions come close enough in damge to one horror for it to pretty much not matter.
if your making a fiend heavy army ene might get tight if you dont have good timing in making a fiend when something dies..
again its not a fault of the build its the person smashing the keys..
Energy is the least of the MM's problems .. soul reaping is the apex for spell spamming.. minions are also super efficient for casting 15 ene for a horror and a 10-12 soul reap means a horror is dange near free.. minions are also almost totally free.. both defensively block.. provide equal damage ( two 13 lvl minions come close enough in damge to one horror for it to pretty much not matter.
if your making a fiend heavy army ene might get tight if you dont have good timing in making a fiend when something dies..
again its not a fault of the build its the person smashing the keys..
Wilheim Eversmann
Could anyone give commend on my build?
N/Me
9 blood
16 death
9 soul reaping
Vamp Gaze, Offering of blood, awaken of blood or BR, BoM, V.S. Echo, Bone horror and fiend. i found it quite good and i could manage an big army easily, many ppl call me a good MM so does it a N/Me is more all arounded than a N/Mo? (no offence, just want to know) because they could do both SS and MM job with a good performance.
thx for any advice^^
N/Me
9 blood
16 death
9 soul reaping
Vamp Gaze, Offering of blood, awaken of blood or BR, BoM, V.S. Echo, Bone horror and fiend. i found it quite good and i could manage an big army easily, many ppl call me a good MM so does it a N/Me is more all arounded than a N/Mo? (no offence, just want to know) because they could do both SS and MM job with a good performance.
thx for any advice^^
Undead Shadowknight
Wilheim - I personally don't like your build because you have a lot of sacrificing spells. Esecially if you are using Awaken the Blood before using BoM, V.S., Offering, etc. You will basically kill yourself. Also, you have have a res signet etc in your build. Are you going to bring V.S. and echo? Cause if you echo V.S. you are going to lose 30% of your hp on just casting 2 spells. And with Vamp Gaze you have to get pretty close to your enemy to use it.
I still like a mix between curse and death but I am a N/M MM. Pretty simple to cast SS whenever you have time for extra dmg. Use purtid explosion or death nova for extra dmg as well. In Tombs Heal Area is really nice when running between groups and waiting for pulls etc.
I still like a mix between curse and death but I am a N/M MM. Pretty simple to cast SS whenever you have time for extra dmg. Use purtid explosion or death nova for extra dmg as well. In Tombs Heal Area is really nice when running between groups and waiting for pulls etc.
Manic Smile
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilheim Eversmann
Could anyone give commend on my build?
N/Me
9 blood
16 death
9 soul reaping
Vamp Gaze, Offering of blood, awaken of blood or BR, BoM, V.S. Echo, Bone horror and fiend. i found it quite good and i could manage an big army easily, many ppl call me a good MM so does it a N/Me is more all arounded than a N/Mo? (no offence, just want to know) because they could do both SS and MM job with a good performance.
thx for any advice^^ Jack of all trades...
And yea even without using AotB before any death saccing spells you'd not have the self healing to spam them like a /mo does.
N/Me
9 blood
16 death
9 soul reaping
Vamp Gaze, Offering of blood, awaken of blood or BR, BoM, V.S. Echo, Bone horror and fiend. i found it quite good and i could manage an big army easily, many ppl call me a good MM so does it a N/Me is more all arounded than a N/Mo? (no offence, just want to know) because they could do both SS and MM job with a good performance.
thx for any advice^^ Jack of all trades...
And yea even without using AotB before any death saccing spells you'd not have the self healing to spam them like a /mo does.
byteme!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fates Monk
15 fresh minions are way more effective as a wall than 15 old minions that have been kept alive w/ HA.
WRONG! YOU would have 15 fresh minions. I will have 15 fresh minions plus 15 other minions that I have managed to keep alive and near full hp if possible. (not exact figures but I think you get the idea)
bam23
The only practical thing I see about keeping around a ton of minions is that the old ones will drop like flies the minute they start fighting, and give soul reaping bonuses more often.
wsmcasey
Okay, I changed my second profession to ranger last night so I could try out healing spring and serpents quickness.
My Results:
I think Healing Spring is awesome!
5 points in (Healing) granted me an 80 point heal for (Heal Area)
5 points in (WS) granted me a 30 point heal ever 2 seconds for 10 seconds using (Healing Spring)
= 150 points of healing for the same energy cost. (worked great just before and after battles)
I don't think that Serpent's Quickness works with VS (sorry)
SQ reduces recharge times for your SKILLS, but VS is a SPELL. Has anyone confirmed that this works, because I think it doesn't. Maybe quickening zepher, but thats a really high energy cost and probably not managable.
Edit: Dark Bond is a better alternative to healing after using your sac spells imo.
I'll have to try this when I get home, but I'm wondering if I use 3 superior runes for a lower hp build and use darkbond, if the damage reduction will improve like it does on the 55hp builds using prot spirit. Anyone try this yet?
My Results:
I think Healing Spring is awesome!
5 points in (Healing) granted me an 80 point heal for (Heal Area)
5 points in (WS) granted me a 30 point heal ever 2 seconds for 10 seconds using (Healing Spring)
= 150 points of healing for the same energy cost. (worked great just before and after battles)
I don't think that Serpent's Quickness works with VS (sorry)
SQ reduces recharge times for your SKILLS, but VS is a SPELL. Has anyone confirmed that this works, because I think it doesn't. Maybe quickening zepher, but thats a really high energy cost and probably not managable.
Edit: Dark Bond is a better alternative to healing after using your sac spells imo.
I'll have to try this when I get home, but I'm wondering if I use 3 superior runes for a lower hp build and use darkbond, if the damage reduction will improve like it does on the 55hp builds using prot spirit. Anyone try this yet?
MasterThrawn
Wow - this has gotten a lot of good responses. Since starting this, I have switched to Mo secondary, and do not think I'll change for an MM build anyway. After they changed Offering of Blood to 20% sacrifice, there is not a much better choice. If you have to use it, cast it, than use your Heal Area, and your set. Soul Reaping takes care of almost all of my energy needs especially in Tombs or FOW, but you may need to use OoB, and 20% life loss is a lot on top of using your other sacrifice skills. With this setup, the monks don't even have to worry about me. I never need energy, almost never need heals (other then my HA), and Minions stay alive a long time. I love this build.
PlayTooMuch
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterThrawn
Hmm - Enfeebling Blood - did not think of that one as being an MM skill, but that sounds interesting - now I would like to bring SS, but everyone was telling me Offering of Blood is what all the "good" MM's bring, in case they need energy... I'll have to try out some of these variations - oh and I meant Verata's Sacrifice in my build (always get those mixed up). Thanks for the tips!
In tombs, it's not that common you'll run low on energy and need offering/blood.
Carinae
OoB is there for the rare times when you need energy now and can't wait.
Example: If you need to cast VS right now, or raise a minion where corpses are highly contested.
Example: If you need to cast VS right now, or raise a minion where corpses are highly contested.
Samueldg
I could understand OOB in pvp.. hell I could even understand it if your running a blood based build..
but why oh why dump points in blood when you are wearing a DEATH SCAR PATTERN?
doesnt that mean you should be contentrating on death?
you know soulreaping works.. your party is all about moving ahead and gettin you more ene via soulreaping.. why spread yourself thin?
soulreaping =1 pint of ene per death per point..
OOB is what 5 to cast PLUS you sac 10% life.. and get 8-20 back.. meaning you will probably get what 13 back with 8 in blood? basically you spend ene to make a little bit back..
what about just kill a monster... put all those point you where squeezing into blood in reaping and enjoy the ene stream.. CAST MINIONS DURING COMBAT...
stop using -1 regen stuff and rock on..
max blood I could see the reasoning but with max death your cutting something else that works BETTER to be able to use that elite.. put the point in soulreaping.. as a mm your never short of things dieing.. why why why?
if you MUST have an elite toss on grenths balance.. thats a fun one ( great way to backhand a grasp on you..) and it doesnt cost you any attrib points to use..
I totally dont get any need for ene from a MM..
even at 10 soulreap I have never had a problem having the ene to make a minion out of everything around.. I just dont get the "NEED" people have to spread a build out into so many areas..
16 death
7-8 heal for self sustaining
the REST in soulreaping ( generally 10-13)
but why oh why dump points in blood when you are wearing a DEATH SCAR PATTERN?
doesnt that mean you should be contentrating on death?
you know soulreaping works.. your party is all about moving ahead and gettin you more ene via soulreaping.. why spread yourself thin?
soulreaping =1 pint of ene per death per point..
OOB is what 5 to cast PLUS you sac 10% life.. and get 8-20 back.. meaning you will probably get what 13 back with 8 in blood? basically you spend ene to make a little bit back..
what about just kill a monster... put all those point you where squeezing into blood in reaping and enjoy the ene stream.. CAST MINIONS DURING COMBAT...
stop using -1 regen stuff and rock on..
max blood I could see the reasoning but with max death your cutting something else that works BETTER to be able to use that elite.. put the point in soulreaping.. as a mm your never short of things dieing.. why why why?
if you MUST have an elite toss on grenths balance.. thats a fun one ( great way to backhand a grasp on you..) and it doesnt cost you any attrib points to use..
I totally dont get any need for ene from a MM..
even at 10 soulreap I have never had a problem having the ene to make a minion out of everything around.. I just dont get the "NEED" people have to spread a build out into so many areas..
16 death
7-8 heal for self sustaining
the REST in soulreaping ( generally 10-13)
Carinae
Well, I explained why. Re-read my last post.
I normally run:
9 Blood
16 Death
9 SR
7 Healing
But I'm trying Manic Smiles suggestion of double superiors, so now I'm:
8 Blood
16 Death
11 SR
8 Healing
I normally run:
9 Blood
16 Death
9 SR
7 Healing
But I'm trying Manic Smiles suggestion of double superiors, so now I'm:
8 Blood
16 Death
11 SR
8 Healing
Frost
I run a N/me minion master, simply for the fact that i'm lazy to switch profession when a SS necro is required. That way i can find a party faster.
I've never had a problem with MM before as a N/me though. Anyone good shouldn't have a problem with MM without a secondary skill.
I've never had a problem with MM before as a N/me though. Anyone good shouldn't have a problem with MM without a secondary skill.
Chunky Monky
I like to bring deathly swarm when I MM also
Manic Smile
Quote:
Originally Posted by wsmcasey
My Results:
I think Healing Spring is awesome!
5 points in (Healing) granted me an 80 point heal for (Heal Area)
5 points in (WS) granted me a 30 point heal ever 2 seconds for 10 seconds using (Healing Spring)
= 150 points of healing for the same energy cost. (worked great just before and after battles)
122(127)+110+122(127)+110 = enough
Quote: Originally Posted by wsmcasey Edit: Dark Bond is a better alternative to healing after using your sac spells imo. How do you use Dark Bond to heal yourself? Typo?
Quote:
Because death caps at 16...
Originally Posted by wsmcasey
I'll have to try this when I get home, but I'm wondering if I use 3 superior runes for a lower hp build and use darkbond, if the damage reduction will improve like it does on the 55hp builds using prot spirit. Anyone try this yet?
Dark Bond works like Life Barrier or Life Bonds so by the description I would think no but I haven't tried 3 sup runes. The reason I suggest DB is that it allows for me to run two superior runes while still allowing me to soak a reasonable ammount of hate. Just got to watch out for that shatter enchantment while being ganked.
Manic Smile
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frost
I run a N/me minion master, simply for the fact that i'm lazy to switch profession when a SS necro is required. That way i can find a party faster.
I've never had a problem with MM before as a N/me though. Anyone good shouldn't have a problem with MM without a secondary skill. Only because the monk was willing to heal you < every 30 seconds. In one FA run I told my gf(healer monk) not to heal the MM outside of battle and I didn't either(bonder), though we did remove hexes and conditions which did heal some as my gf is a boon monk, and still you should have seen how hard a time he was having...was at half life most the time and died twice... Manic Smile
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samueldg
|
Quote:
Quote: Originally Posted by Samueldg soulreaping =1 pint of ene per death per point.. soulreaping =1 pint of ene per death per point
Quote: Originally Posted by Samueldg OOB is what 5 to cast PLUS you sac 10% life.. and get 8-20 back.. meaning you will probably get what 13 back with 8 in blood? basically you spend ene to make a little bit back.. 20% life...15energy back at 9 Blood so 10 energy at the cost of ~72 life
Yes that is still *uber*
Quote: Originally Posted by Samueldg what about just kill a monster... put all those point you where squeezing into blood in reaping and enjoy the ene stream.. CAST MINIONS DURING COMBAT... same reasons...Great MMing isn't about raising minnions solely it's about keeping minnions up on the margin...i.e. while doing all the other things a MM needs to...the balance of 20 minnions while raising 5 more and healing yourself and healing the monk being ganked...that is the beauty of OoB with /mo
Quote: Originally Posted by Samueldg stop using -1 regen stuff and rock on.. /confusing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samueldg
max blood I could see the reasoning but with max death your cutting something else that works BETTER to be able to use that elite.. put the point in soulreaping.. as a mm your never short of things dieing.. why why why?
...uh yea...I'm really not...unless you mean like 20 more life from HA...2 more energy from dead monsters that refill my 52 energy anyway...think about it
~5 monsters = full energy at soul reaping of 10
~4 monsters = full energy at soul reaping of 12
where is this huge gain?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
~5 monsters = full energy at soul reaping of 10
~4 monsters = full energy at soul reaping of 12
where is this huge gain?
Quote:
You don't need the life as you're a back line player, or should be and you shouldn't be spamming it to where you ever really have to wait for the recharge.
Originally Posted by Samueldg
if you MUST have an elite toss on grenths balance.. thats a fun one ( great way to backhand a grasp on you..) and it doesnt cost you any attrib points to use..
when Factions comes out I intend to try out that Flesh Golem but that's nothing but a pipe dream at the moment...
It takes 15 seconds to recharge and only allows you to animate one more bone fiend/horror at the cost of your Hp.
as fo GB...why? 150 dmg or so max when 1 minnion could outstrip that in 10 attacks or so on average.... if I was going to run an alternate Elite it would be Martyer in conjuncion with Infuse Condition and if you don't like OoB Essence bond makes an awsome non elite alternative for s&g Quote:
Where are you going to put the points anyway? It's not about energy as it is about energy when you need it. As for time...5-->15 energy vs. waiting for 10 more energy to naturally regen.
Quote: |
Quote:
Originally Posted by LokiCai
16 death, 11 soul reaping and the rest into healing with healing area.
No argument with the 16 death but when is 11 soul reaping ever going to be needed where 10 is not enough?
But stating with an attitude that your's is superior is simply blind arrogance, making you look like quite a prick. Those with 'impirical' (learn how to spell it before using it) evidence are just trying to validate their arrogance with something other than 'because I say so'. It impresses no one.
---Dead Mobs----Net Energy Gain----Horrors-------Fiends--- SR---------------10-----11-------10---11------10-----11 ---------1--------10-----11--------0----0--------0------0 ---------2--------20-----22--------1----1--------0------0 ---------3--------30-----33--------2----2--------1------1 ---------4--------40-----44--------2----2--------1------1 ---------5--------50-----55--------3----3--------2------2 ---------6--------60-----66--------4----4--------2------2 ---------7--------70-----77-------4----5--------2------3 granted this isn't considering the less expensive spells on your bar you could use more often inbetween but they aren't really a breaker for a MM...at least I don't have problems having enough energy for them off of just natural regen Quote:
Raising a large army only requires N/. For the most part that's true, but having the right tools helps a lot. In terms of maintaining an army, N/Mo and N/R have the right tools. The others use crutches to limp home.
Quote: |
This is a funny paragraph. I encourage everyone to read it repeatedly.
Originally Posted by Bel Ebih
One comment I found really funny while reading this though, is the one about how 'most noob MM's are N/E's' and how 'N/E are the W/Mo's of MM'. Funny because N/Mo is what most people run, especially in the early stages of the game, for the same reason Warriors run W/Mo: self-heal. If you want to keep pressure off the heal Monk, fine, but thinking you're superior just because you can self-heal is the equivalent of a wammo with Healing Hands in RA.
![]() ![]() Are W/Mo's packing Heal Area? So they are using a different self-heal? (Mending?) So, it's apple and oranges isn't it? Lets calculate some figures for N/E maintaining GoR+VS. Assume two uses of BotM per minute. GoR = 5 energy plus VS costs every 15 seconds. GoR+VS burns 60 energy plus ~288 health per minute. BotM burns 20 energy plus ~96 health per minute. Total just for maintaining the army, not including raising costs: 80 energy plus ~384 health per minute. In other words: 4 pips of energy regen PLUS 3.2 pips of health degen continuously while you have minions. Now, as N/E, you do get to use GoLE with high SR, so energy isn't really a problem, but you are taking a HUGE penalty just to keep VS up for an extra 9 seconds. Now, N/Mo's turn (similar numbers exist for N/R) Assume 8 healing, and two uses of BotM+HA per minute. VS burns 20 energy plus ~144 health per minute. BotM+HA burns 40 energy and the MM GAINS ~124 health per minute, PLUS nearby Minions gain 464 health per minute, even when they are at full degen. So, compared to maintenance costs for N/E we have +20 energy/minute and are effectively NEUTRAL in health. PLUS having a 110 point self-and-minion heal on demand. VERSUS spending ~384 health/min, 20 energy/min, half minions-healing power, and either ToD/Monk as your healing just to keep VS up for an extra 9 seconds. N/Mo and N/R....simply....are....BETTER. Yukito Kunisaki
Can't we all just get along? lol
I run a n/e and I do NOT follow anyone's rules on how to play a 'single' style... Unlike the cookie cutter n/x, my build was designed to kill about 3x faster than any minion army. The cost? Longevity. I'm lucky if my minions last to the 3rd battle, but by battle 2, I have new ones so it's no big deal. What do I do? Taste of Death Nova combo. Use your teammates and Deathly Swarm to bring down some bodies... Raise minions [not horrors] so that you double your corpse count. Cast Death Nova on them. At 16 death, it HURTS... Then Taste of Death. You'll get a nice dose of hp and energy in the explosion as well as more dead bodies... Why is it that minions HAVE to live? Can't a master of Death just kill things like some rampant whirling dervish of chaos? ![]() My secondary is Ice Elementalist. Thereby becoming a true "Disciple of Grenth" so to speak... What the hell would I use ice for? To snare enemies so that my minions can catch up to them and blow up in their faces... Or so that I can run away like the little pansy caster I am so my teammates can deal with the problem. What's nice is that whether it's a teammate or a foe, any death to me is 2 death novas worth in hp, energy, and damage... ![]() kaldak
Yukito, thats a bomber build you're describing. It certainly can be quite effective, but its not quite the same thing as an MM build designed to build a fighting (as opposed to explosive) force.
Bel Ebih
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
At this point people are going to have to make actual cases for or against a given secondary. There are actual mathematical and logical arguments presented in this thread in favor of self-healing. I find it very difficult to discuss your counter-argument of "Nu-uh!". ... snip... *Lookie! Numbers! I'm right and you're wrong because I'm throwing around meaningless numbers! Yay me! Aren't I special!?* |

I've always been of the opinion that being dependant on self-heals (when not soloing), no matter what you're playing, is one of the biggest crutches many people never overcome in both PvE and PvP. But you know what? If your thing is to be 'self-sufficient' then more power to you. I'm not gonna go trying to make my opinion an absolute truth. I'm not that arrogant.

So as far as my 'counter-argument', you completely missed my point. I'm not making a case for a particular secondary, I make a case for the player. In my opinion, if the player is actually a good MM, all he/she needs is the summons, VS, and BotM. Anything else just comes down to preferance on how to complement it, but it has no real significant impact on wether or not a large army can be raised and maintained.
Basicaly, those 5+ pages of empirical, numerical, and logical 'evidence' you're so proud of completely crumbles into a pile of meaningless bs when, in practice, people who do not meet your standard of 'the best' build for MM, can do just as good a job, if not better than you.
Oh yeah...
Quote:
All I can say is that N/E is the W/Mo of necromancers!
You're the one that made the ridiculous comparison between MM's and wammos I was commenting on, so the apples and oranges are all your's.

LokiCai
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobrath
Sorry, but in the tombs... if a MM is doing his job the monk is the most bored person on the map. All they have to do is regen the puller occasionaly and feed the self saccing necros. Neither of which is a "super healer".
If the monk is running for his life... why is no one helping him and pulling back at the same time? Lets not be too self important now.
Yes things happen, but experienced MMs know that the worst place for them to be is anywhere near the front lines. Trigger your minions forward and then back off.
Minions are higher aggro priority then players (ignoring dp heavy or 55- players). By ToDing one you're doing nothing but giving the grasps a worse for your team choice. The most effective tactic I've used in breakthroughs is to raise a quick horror or fiend (whichever is avail) from the recently deceased pet/ally and watch the grasp switch off chasing. Good teams can peal aggro off onto summons. (BTW death nova makes this tactic even better - one for the ally going down and a second on the summon)
The *last* thing I want to do as a MM in the tombs is reduce the meat shield.
ToD is great for bombing. Bombing is bad in Tombs. ToD is bad in tombs. You seemed so sure of yourself. Of course, if everyone is doing their job right, the Necro shall never be the "Hit Target", and the Monk shall never heal anybody but himself? (The MM does not need heal either, since first of all, he never got attacked according to your logic, secondly, Heal Area shall be plenty). But the truth is I did see Necro died while surrounded by his own minions. Read my paragraph more carefully, I never suggested to use ToD while you don't need it, it is the last resort to keep yourself from being killed and watching your minions turning against your party members and then everybody just quit because they were disgusted. What's more important, sacrificing one minion or have yourself killed and losing all minions? Most of time, I never need to use ToD if I went out with a great team and everything is as planned, but maybe one out of 10 times, the ToD would allow me to kill one minion to save myself and all other minions while continue the mission.
If the monk is running for his life... why is no one helping him and pulling back at the same time? Lets not be too self important now.
Yes things happen, but experienced MMs know that the worst place for them to be is anywhere near the front lines. Trigger your minions forward and then back off.
Minions are higher aggro priority then players (ignoring dp heavy or 55- players). By ToDing one you're doing nothing but giving the grasps a worse for your team choice. The most effective tactic I've used in breakthroughs is to raise a quick horror or fiend (whichever is avail) from the recently deceased pet/ally and watch the grasp switch off chasing. Good teams can peal aggro off onto summons. (BTW death nova makes this tactic even better - one for the ally going down and a second on the summon)
The *last* thing I want to do as a MM in the tombs is reduce the meat shield.
ToD is great for bombing. Bombing is bad in Tombs. ToD is bad in tombs. You seemed so sure of yourself. Of course, if everyone is doing their job right, the Necro shall never be the "Hit Target", and the Monk shall never heal anybody but himself? (The MM does not need heal either, since first of all, he never got attacked according to your logic, secondly, Heal Area shall be plenty). But the truth is I did see Necro died while surrounded by his own minions. Read my paragraph more carefully, I never suggested to use ToD while you don't need it, it is the last resort to keep yourself from being killed and watching your minions turning against your party members and then everybody just quit because they were disgusted. What's more important, sacrificing one minion or have yourself killed and losing all minions? Most of time, I never need to use ToD if I went out with a great team and everything is as planned, but maybe one out of 10 times, the ToD would allow me to kill one minion to save myself and all other minions while continue the mission.
