Mesmer Are Truly Undervalued.
Undead Preacher
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Originally Posted by Banebow
Besides monks, not really (and even monks are debatable). It just takes less brain work for people to stick with the trinity, so they do.
Mm-hm, and this was mentioned before as well. Probably the biggest thing going against the mesmer currently is the fact that no fotm farming build involves one. (can't be a tanks order dog? Better not try and find a group
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Actually, it is a PvP warrior. My attitude comes from the statement that mesmers are effectivly pointless in PvE and should stick to PvP. Shall we say that elementalists should stick to PvE because warriors can cause more damage in PvP? Never seen an ele make much of a difference in pvp... maybe cuz the mesmers that own drain then.... so yea, lets say they should stick to pve
Mm-hm, and this was mentioned before as well. Probably the biggest thing going against the mesmer currently is the fact that no fotm farming build involves one. (can't be a tanks order dog? Better not try and find a group
)Actually, it is a PvP warrior. My attitude comes from the statement that mesmers are effectivly pointless in PvE and should stick to PvP. Shall we say that elementalists should stick to PvE because warriors can cause more damage in PvP? Never seen an ele make much of a difference in pvp... maybe cuz the mesmers that own drain then.... so yea, lets say they should stick to pve
Arcanis the Omnipotent
10 years old, yeah that's me. Geez, you really are acting like a noob throwing out insults like that. And yes, I do realize I just became a hypocrite there, dont care much.
16 curses huh? Ok, so if I do say 12 in Dom and 12 in Illusion, and fast cast say.... Conjure Phantasm, Phantom Pain, Energy Burn and Energy Surge, and Cry of Fustration, how many curses spells are you gonna have done by then? And, how quickly do you think you're going to out damage me, when Conjure is easily put on 3 people very quickly, thus by the time the other spells recharge, another man is dead almost instantly.
Speed is what a mesmer does best. The most things put on an enemy in the fastest ammount of time. Even if you do have 16 in curses, and there for have the highest damage potential, who would have more curses on someone faster? Not only that, Mesmers can recharge their own skills in half the time, meaning you could easily recast all those curses again, probably before the Necro got through them all once.
16 Curses speed killing, right...
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16 curses huh? Ok, so if I do say 12 in Dom and 12 in Illusion, and fast cast say.... Conjure Phantasm, Phantom Pain, Energy Burn and Energy Surge, and Cry of Fustration, how many curses spells are you gonna have done by then? And, how quickly do you think you're going to out damage me, when Conjure is easily put on 3 people very quickly, thus by the time the other spells recharge, another man is dead almost instantly.
Speed is what a mesmer does best. The most things put on an enemy in the fastest ammount of time. Even if you do have 16 in curses, and there for have the highest damage potential, who would have more curses on someone faster? Not only that, Mesmers can recharge their own skills in half the time, meaning you could easily recast all those curses again, probably before the Necro got through them all once.
16 Curses speed killing, right...
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If anything, Mesmers are essential to PVE more than people know, and people should know it. Properly taken care of by the rest of the party, a mesmer can essentially shorten battle times by 50% or higher by doing what they do better than any other class. Screw every enemy type up. They arent better than every other class, and Necros have things going for them that Mesmers cant do. But a Necro is not as good at a Mesmer's job as he is, not even if the Necro is a Mesmer secondary.
That job is simple f*ck every enemy up as fast as possible, in as many unexpected ways as possible. When you see a Necro, you have an idea. MM, Battery or Hex. But when you see a Mesmer, you have no idea what to expect. And that's why we're underappreciated in PVE, because we do the job, get it done, and its not visible. Its not seen. Mesmers tend to make PVE teams function better and faster, and but because they are purely a support class, the main classes dont really see the results like they do with a monk.
Lady Callingwell
The main issue with mesmer is just the lack of "uber-pve" skills, like goof AoE, stances (distortion pwns in PvP but isnt really worth it in PvE), and other "immortallity" skills. The sole reason that PvE enemies are stupid (e.g. no spikes, no kiting) and the lack of prolonged battles makes a mesmer running the domination line relatively less usefull, inspiration less necessary as energy can just be burned awayand regened before the next battle and the degen based illusion line doesnt stand a chance against all of the late game, insane health enemies.
Avarre
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Originally Posted by Undead Preacher
this thread is... oh man... nobody likes me...
memsers are the kids left on the sideline, the ones picked last for dodgeball, lol.... they can be great... and the statements i made was in reference to them not being in demand... If i was making a team... then I would honestly have a mesmer in the mix.... I was simply saying thats not how many people look at it
The only good thing I have ever seen from a necro in PvE is Spiteful spirit. And every necro runs it, and the vast majority completely suck at it. Got news for ya necro, Spiteful is actually a mesmer domination elite, put under curses. Its the elite empathy.
The only fully-natural build necros have that I appreciate is MM, the traditional style necro that is actually cool.
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Originally Posted by Arcanis the Omnipotent
If anything, Mesmers are essential to PVE more than people know, and people should know it. Properly taken care of by the rest of the party, a mesmer can essentially shorten battle times by 50% or higher by doing what they do better than any other class. Screw every enemy type up. They arent better than every other class, and Necros have things going for them that Mesmers cant do. But a Necro is not as good at a Mesmer's job as he is, not even if the Necro is a Mesmer secondary.
What the man said.
Mesmer shutdown also lends to the fact they are nigh-invincible in PvE. With empathy and distortion alone you can do quite alot, even if your party is dying. With SV, you aren't at risk from warrior spike damage. Distort makes you immune to rangers, Hex removal from necros (which incidentally, are the mob-class least feared in all of FoW), interrupt on eles... get the picture? Necros have degenerated into a pseudo-ele damage class, mesmers are not just blind offence. NinjaKai
Holy Hera have mercy. More than 80 posts in this thread. O_O I never expected it to last this long.
LightningHell
I completely agree to anything Avarre says and Arcanis.
Both play Magic: the Gathering too, as a bonus.  That was random...Firstly, why is Preacher in the Mesmer subforums anyways? Secondly, why does Preacher say "teh N3rc0 0wnz j00 m4zm4r 1n pve"? Has he even played the Mesmer class before? The necromancer canNOT and will never be able to replace the Mesmer class. Vice versa. And for all classes.
Oraculum
I've got a Me/N and N/Me. Both are equally good, and combined, both are equally superb for their given tasks.
Personally, the necro I use for MM, coz I find it fun. The mesmer I use coz I find the whole mesmer skill-set fun and love (learning to) interrupt and cause lots of damage. So much so that I may well use a spare slot from Factions to make another Mesmer primary. NinjaKai
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Originally Posted by Oraculum
I've got a Me/N and N/Me. Both are equally good, and combined, both are equally superb for their given tasks.
Personally, the necro I use for MM, coz I find it fun. The mesmer I use coz I find the whole mesmer skill-set fun and love (learning to) interrupt and cause lots of damage. So much so that I may well use a spare slot from Factions to make another Mesmer primary. A key tip to interrupting. Timing is essential. Lady Callingwell
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Originally Posted by NinjaKai
A key tip to interrupting. Timing is essential.
Timing (I assume you mean reaction speed) is just one part of it. A ranger can dumbly spam his interupts. As a interupting mesmer there is one thing more important, knowing nearly any skill in the game and the capabillity of linking their combo to other skills used around the field. This holds mainly for PvP and a lot less for PvE but even in PvE it's good to realize how differnet targets contribute to a groups damage/healing output and how this can be dropped significantly.
Mesti Arcanus
Yeah, knowing WHAT to interrupt is possibly the most important part of interrupting as a Mesmer. Even if you babysit a target (like, say, the enemy monk), you can't just madly try to interrupt every spell it casts. If you do, you're bound to miss some, and then you've wasted that interrupt until it recharges. Once you get better at it, you might be able to hit all but the fastest spells, but until then I'd suggest focusing on figuring out what takes long enough for you to hit. I know there's still days that I miss Orison because my reaction time wasn't good enough.
LouAl
ahhh, no more undead preacher to get into flame wars with
NinjaKai
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mesti Arcanus
Yeah, knowing WHAT to interrupt is possibly the most important part of interrupting as a Mesmer. Even if you babysit a target (like, say, the enemy monk), you can't just madly try to interrupt every spell it casts. If you do, you're bound to miss some, and then you've wasted that interrupt until it recharges. Once you get better at it, you might be able to hit all but the fastest spells, but until then I'd suggest focusing on figuring out what takes long enough for you to hit. I know there's still days that I miss Orison because my reaction time wasn't good enough.
Knowing what to interrupt is very important. Shame no ones written a complete guide to mesmers. As for interrupting builds, etc. I would always take Avarre and Arcanis advice. They definitely know what they are doing.
LightningHell
Most Blue players know what they're doing.
As someone said, a Mesmer needs to know what the opponent is doing, possibly better than the target himself. And he needs to know how the target contributes to the opposing party. I'll have to add more...later. DieInBasra
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The only good thing I have ever seen from a necro in PvE is Spiteful spirit. And every necro runs it, and the vast majority completely suck at it. Got news for ya necro, Spiteful is actually a mesmer domination elite, put under curses. Its the elite empathy.
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In PvE you almost need 1-2 tanks and healers, which leaves you with 4 characters. You want those characters to do as much damage as possible. SS necros do AoE damage, and mobs are almost always in larges groups. This is the same with Fire eles, and to a lesser extent water and earth eles. Rangers bring other things to the table, like traps(more AoE vs melee) and barrage, interupts, as well as some utility spirits.
Mesmers can take a target down a single target. Woohoo. Almost all of the time you're going to be running into big mobs, where taking them down one at a time just isn't as effective as dealing damage to all of them at once. The times where you do run into a monk boss, sticking rend on the necro and some interupts on the ranger, maybe the tanks as well, can shut them down just as well as a mesmer with backfire.
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Mesmers are essential to PVE more than people know, and people should know it.
I think that in the 4-5 months that people have been playing this game, if mesmer were "essential" then they would have found out already.
SnipiousMax
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Originally Posted by LightningHell
Most Blue players know what they're doing.
As someone said, a Mesmer needs to know what the opponent is doing, possibly better than the target himself. And he needs to know how the target contributes to the opposing party. I'll have to add more...later. Dang I always played green.... Mesmer's depened on foresight more than any other class. You could say that a mesmer knows how to play every class, just from knowing how to screw up everyclass. All I know about necro's I learned from playing a mesmer!
NinjaKai
Speaking of interrupts. Mesmer are the only profession with the most skills that can interrupt almost any skill.
SnipiousMax
Quote:
Originally Posted by NinjaKai
Speaking of interrupts. Mesmer are the only profession with the most skills that can interrupt almost any skill.
Bow interrupts interrupt everything.
DieInBasra
Mesmer are horrible interrupters, if that's what you're looking for. An interupt on a mesmer isn't a bad idea, but a mesmer interupter is outclasses by a ranger interrupter by a mile.
romeo_longsword
On a lighter note, my new Me was doing the Thirsty River mission, where the priest would heal and rez all his friends every 2 mins.
My baby Me killed all the priests by himself (most damage and supression was applied by him), but with the aid of my team holding the other mods, with one exception that at the end, one of the bosses was a monk, which I had to supress his healing boss while all other was killing the priest. I am quite proud of the Me class. /bow NinjaKai
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Originally Posted by SnipiousMax
Bow interrupts interrupt everything.
What about signets?
NinjaKai
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Originally Posted by romeo_longsword
On a lighter note, my new Me was doing the Thirsty River mission, where the priest would heal and rez all his friends every 2 mins.
My baby Me killed all the priests by himself (most damage and supression was applied by him), but with the aid of my team holding the other mods, with one exception that at the end, one of the bosses was a monk, which I had to supress his healing boss while all other was killing the priest. I am quite proud of the Me class. /bow I waited till I was about level 16 before doing thirst river. Makes getting to level 20 easier if your already a higher level when doing ascension. But ascending for mesmers is pretty EASY. Emphasis on the easy. DieInBasra
Yes, they do interrupt signets. They interrupt everything.
NinjaKai
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Originally Posted by SnipiousMax
Bow interrupts interrupt everything.
True there are 4 skills that can interrupt any actions. But two are elite so your potential range of interrupts is only 3. Though I do see your point. When it comes to spellcaster interrupting though, mesmer spellcasters are the ones who shine most since the effects of the interruption skills are wider ranged and the benefits are greater.
DieInBasra
And choking gas, concussion shot, and Dirsrupting Lunge. Your second point is meaningless, as both classes have befinifts, and it depends on the group build as to which benifits are greater. However, if you're group needs an interupter, pure and simple, a ranger is better because his interrupts can be spammed and interrupt everything.
Is this still on topic? >_> NinjaKai
Quote:
Originally Posted by DieInBasra
And choking gas, concussion shot, and Dirsrupting Lunge. Your second point is meaningless, as both classes have befinifts, and it depends on the group build as to which benifits are greater. However, if you're group needs an interupter, pure and simple, a ranger is better because his interrupts can be spammed and interrupt everything.
Is this still on topic? >_> Not on topic. But there's nothing wrong with a friendly debate is there. ^_^
SnipiousMax
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Originally Posted by NinjaKai
True there are 4 skills that can interrupt any actions. But two are elite so your potential range of interrupts is only 3. Though I do see your point. When it comes to spellcaster interrupting though, mesmer spellcasters are the ones who shine most since the effects of the interruption skills are wider ranged and the benefits are greater.
Punishing Shot (E)
Concussion Shot Savage Shot Distracting Shot Only one's elite. But you also have Incendiary Arrows and Choking gas (although I think that CG only interrupts spells) and disrupting lunge (and I guess you can count the pet skill that knocks down someone casting spell). Back on topic.... Where Mesmer's outshine Rangers.... there spell interrupts only take 1/4 second (or faster) to cast, and are instantly interrupting. Ranger interrupts have a "casting" time of 1/2 second (not any faster), and have to travel to the caster. So for those pesky hard to time quick cast spells or skills, Ranger's depend on luck or quantity rather than Razor edge precision like a mesmer enjoys. That said... I still like Ranger interrupts. But to each his own right? NinjaKai
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnipiousMax
Punishing Shot (E)
Concussion Shot Savage Shot Distracting Shot Only one's elite. But you also have Incendiary Arrows and Choking gas (although I think that CG only interrupts spells) and disrupting lunge (and I guess you can count the pet skill that knocks down someone casting spell). Back on topic.... Where Mesmer's outshine Rangers.... there spell interrupts only take 1/4 second (or faster) to cast, and are instantly interrupting. Ranger interrupts have a "casting" time of 1/2 second (not any faster), and have to travel to the caster. So for those pesky hard to time quick cast spells or skills, Ranger's depend on luck or quantity rather than Razor edge precision like a mesmer enjoys. That said... I still like Ranger interrupts. But to each his own right? Understand that I got my information from guildwiki so the information on the skills was probably correct at the time. As for interrupts in the end both are useless if the person has an anti-interrupt enchantment on them.
Dragannia
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Originally Posted by DieInBasra
And choking gas, concussion shot, and Dirsrupting Lunge. Your second point is meaningless, as both classes have befinifts, and it depends on the group build as to which benifits are greater. However, if you're group needs an interupter, pure and simple, a ranger is better because his interrupts can be spammed and interrupt everything.
Is this still on topic? >_> I have to agree. Ranger interrupters are significantly better than Mesmer ones. However, a Power Block for instance hurts more than a Punishing Shot, and Mesmers can cast through obstacles.
SnipiousMax
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Originally Posted by Dragannia
... Mesmers can cast through obstacles.
Good point. Mesmers can also interrupt blinded.
NinjaKai
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Originally Posted by SnipiousMax
Good point. Mesmers can also interrupt blinded.
It makes IW users happy. Since the weapon becomes more like a mesmer spell. Damaging through opponents armor. Kind of funny. Warrior with powerful armor. Meet IW mesmer.
Avarre
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Originally Posted by SnipiousMax
Good point. Mesmers can also interrupt blinded.
And we can interrupt attacks (clumsiness).
The major thing I like about ranger interrupts is the dazing concshot. Otherwise I'd stick with mesmer interrupts + diversion for shutting something down (better to bring both, because interrupting every spammed orison is a waste of time. Whereas rangers have that build into distracting :P)
romeo_longsword
Being mainly/mostly a Ranger player so far, the biggest difference when it comes to INT is the recharge time. Ranger has skills which has a lesser recharge time then the good old Me, and the skills also interrup both spells and skills, so for a noob like me, it become easy to just press the button without indenifying rather it was a spell or a skill.
But good training as now I wont just use the skill without planing.
romeo_longsword
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Originally Posted by NinjaKai
I waited till I was about level 16 before doing thirst river. Makes getting to level 20 easier if your already a higher level when doing ascension. But ascending for mesmers is pretty EASY. Emphasis on the easy.
I have just completed that quest, the match allowed me to cast three spells and it was over:
1, Cry of F 2, Backfire 3, Degen Then that was it. In interupted him first spell, then cast the other two, it lasted in seconds. Go Me. NinjaKai
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Originally Posted by romeo_longsword
I have just completed that quest, the match allowed me to cast three spells and it was over:
1, Cry of F 2, Backfire 3, Degen Then that was it. In interupted him first spell, then cast the other two, it lasted in seconds. Go Me. I just used the good old backfire, empathy and mantras. He killed himself in no time flat.
knives
I've heard rangers are versatile. I don't disagree, but lets see.
Beastmaster Spiker/Interrupter (basically the same builds anyways) Trapper Spirit Spammer Expertise Warrior Debilitating Shot (Rarely used) Prevented by many stances and enchantments such as aegis or guardian Runner Quickshot Barrage But I have never heard that Mesmers are versatile, so we shall see again. Energy Denial Migraine/Mass Degeneration (Almost the same) Illusionary Weaponry Diversion/Blackout Anti-Warrior Interrupter Echo/Shatter Hex Glyph of Renewal/Shatter Enchantment Spiker (Phantom Pain/Shatter Delusions) Boss Killer (Wastrels, Blackout, etc) Armor Ignoring Damage Only prevented by spellbreaker/obsidian flesh Runner (Illusion of Haste + Distortion) So which would you say is more versatile? If there is more that a ranger does, please feel free to add on to the list, but that so far is the only thing I have seen any ranger use. DieInBasra
I've only ever seen 5 types of mesmer in high-end gvg, and 5 type of ranger. Edenial, migraine, runner, anti war, and spiker. Ranger has runner, snarer, trapper, spiker, and interrupter. Maybe a mesmer is more versitile, but it's got the same amount of practical uses as a ranger.
Avarre
You missed renewal-diversion mesmers
 Shutdown ftw.
Arcanis the Omnipotent
*looks over the M:tg talk.*
Heh, and the sad thing is I started out as a Green/Black player too. =) Only moved to blue when I got my namesake and created a deck around him. 
Avarre
I still remember the description of Arcanis from 'One-card-army'
'... he can beat you up, steal your girlfriend, and STILL have a hand full of cards!' From what we can see, all the good mesmers seem to play M:tG... probably not coincidence
SnipiousMax
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Originally Posted by knives
If there is more that a ranger does, please feel free to add on to the list, but that so far is the only thing I have seen any ranger use.
Cripple Shot Ranger
Poison/Bleed Degen And I never got away from green...does that mean I'm a poor mesmer? :P |
