Anet doesn't care about PvE?

I have to say about the skills unluck that was more of pvp player problem than a RPG player problem. I don't see anything about fixing RPG problems.

I would also like to note it is kinda unfair that anet change pve and not battle Island. I Personly don't think that RPG should not be depended on any pvp player or players. I think Anet should focus on what RPG players want and would like. I only see this as forcing pve players to play with pvp players. There already has reports of people fighting, people being rude. Also RPG players dropping out because they don't want to pvp. I think in the real changes will not be seen until the game comes out. There is not alot people who come to these fourms that play the game. I really don't think this will work. Pve players want different things than pvp players.

I think people need wake up and smell the coffee. I maybe wrong but I can bet money on it this will not work. I think that Anet really miss the boat on this one.


All I hear coming from Jeff Strain is pvp. I can go and write list of reasons rpg players are different than pvp and why it will not work. I also think that Anet has not put in their system. What it is rpg players really wnat. I think pvp or anything that is pvp should be a opation not forced in any way or form. I would have to wonder about Anets 1000 beta testers. How be it that in the fourms are where the problem was first brought up and not in the beta test! It really makes you wonder. I also feel there is not laot pve players who know what is going on. When they buy the game they maybe in for a shock!

look at HOH right pvp right now. I can see the whole fractions allinace going that route. One does not have to look far to see a train reck. I also like to note that is pvp is not up to par, there is always the Rpg to keep Anet a float. What happens in the pvp sinks, you this have rpg to keep anet afloat.

Think Anet is is driving the pvp and rpg players out the door! A game company should not take the players for granted! They should be respect for their styles. Like I said before pve players know what they want. Those people fighting agisnt other peoples play styles. Your only hurting the game even more. Your driving people out of the game. When that happens, you may one day have drived eveyone out of the game.

Either that or Gaile was wrong.


Incorrect. It behooves a guild to be in a *faction* with lots of PvP-based guilds that can claim territory. For their alliance, a guild is best off if it joins with several *farming guilds* to maximize their alliance standing and gain control of those cities and outposts. As far as control of cities goes, the good PvP guilds are going to be patently *bad* allies.


Those players don't have the slightest clue how the mechanics actually work. I'm not saying that there won't be radical changes before release, but as things stood during the FPE your access to 'Elite' content depends 99% upon your alliance's ability to zerg standing with one faction or another.

Here's a rundown of the mechanics as they stood during the event, to the best of my understanding:

Each faction has its own 'ladder' of alliance standing. Standing is gained by dumping large amounts of faction into it, and that standing decays over time, so maintaining standing is a continuous process. To gain a high standing and a high place on the ladder, you need a lot of players each gaining a lot of faction that they're willing to use to pump up that standing.

The alliances for each faction are given control of major cities and outposts that belong to that faction. The Luxon alliance with the highest standing had control of Cavalon, for example. How the different outposts were handed out I'm not sure, but basically the teams on the top of the faction ladder had control.

The cutoff point for how many guilds from each alliance get access to this high-end content depends on that faction line and how outposts shift control. If the Kurzicks are winning at any given point in time and control more territory, more guilds from the top of the Kurzick standing ladder will have access to elite content. The same goes for Luxons. It should be noted that the *number* of alliances granted access to elite content does not change.

Similarly the most powerful standing guilds are going to be largely immune to these shuffling effects, because they have first grab at any territory that their faction does happen to control. Only guilds on the bubble in the alliance standing will be affected, because the break point for gaining access to a territory is a dynamic thing.

Helping your faction gain territory is more of a cosmetic feature, it's largely going to be impractical. If you're an alliance that's on the bubble, that's affected by the swings in the faction lines, then it's of paramount importance that you maintain your standing at all costs. If alliance battles remain the way they were during the FPE then moving the line is going to depend upon large numbers far more than individual actions. However if moving the lines and taking control of outposts cuts into your faction per hour (FPH) then you're actually hurting your chances of taking a city, as even though you might gain territory it's likely that a more dedicated FPH will pass you in the standings and take control of that outpost you gained. A good player that can win all of his alliance battles will have trouble cracking 3000 FPH from alliance battles even if he wins every time - the repeatable quests should be worth a comparable amount, if not more, once they are analyzed and farmed.

In other words it becomes largely like the favor system, where your needs to focus on your alliance standing above all else if you're on the bubble, and hope that the PvP part of your faction comes through to give you access to content.

If you want to powergame the system to gain control of the best cities, the technique is fairly simple:

Create a massive faction farming alliance of 1000 people who contribute to the alliance standing pot. This will maximize your standing on the alliance ladder and give you control of the best cities available.

Make sure that your alliance is composed of serious farming guilds, not casual players. Faction is going to need to be farmed like it's a job if you want to stay on the top.

Refine the farming of repeatable quests to an art so that you can gain faction more quickly as in individual. Train your alliance in how to run these missions to really push that alliance standing.

Join whichever faction has the strongest PvP presence - avoid the PvE favored faction. During the FPE this was the Kurzicks. Not only does that faction control more territory more consistently, but the competition on the ladder will be thinner, making your job of maintaining the top spot easier.

That's how the game works right now. If you don't like how that works, complain vigorously about it.


That's simply creating a PvE map with multiple, simultaneous goals. There isn't anything terribly special about that.

What I'm asking is what random grouping would do to enhance people's PvE experiences. In PvP randomness is incredibly important because it applies to both teams, and has important metagame considerations. Organized teams and random teams will play out very differently even if they're playing on the same map with the same objectives.

At the same time I don't see how random groupings for PvE will accomplish anything. There aren't exactly metagame considerations to deal with or things like that. How would, say, forming up two groups of four in a mission outpost, then randomly pairing them up for a mission lead to a better gameplay experience than just choosing the 8 from the beginning?


I guess I just don't see it. If you have two teams in a mission that don't interact with each other, all you're doing is adding an arbitrary failure point to the mission. I.E. in your example your mission is basically 'hold off wave after wave of mobs for N minutes, where N is a randomly determined number between 1 and infinity'. I really don't see how that's any more fun than 'hold off wave after wave of mobs for 10 minutes'.

If the teams do interact, and as far as I'm concerned they have to, then again, what's to gain from adding the random grouping component? Why not let teams form themselves for the mission and split up as needed?

PvE, at least in my mind, is a puzzle game. You're presented with a set of obstacles and it's up to you to figure out how to overcome them. Once you figure out how to beat something you just execute it and complete the mission. I am certainly game for more complex puzzles and will lobby for their inclusion. But what I'm not keen on, at all, is random failure factors. "Figure out how to beat a mission, then continue forming teams, failing for reasons beyond your control, and entering the mission until you get a lucky pairing and complete it."


What exactly are gold pieces if not tradable points?


The most interesting mission, of course, would be 'how many times will I have to enter this mission until I get a random group competent enough to complete it?' Oh look, a Whammo with henchies, better quit out and try again.

Making that whole process maddening is the direct relationship between the need to quit out and how interesting the mission actually is. If it's a trivially easy mission you can just wait it out while the random teams stumble through their parts. But if it's a difficult mission with a non-trivial failure chance for even a good group, you're going to want to be very discriminatory if you don't want to waste your time. Join, check other team, if it isn't up to spec quit out and try again.

Granted this is a problem of every random format (I quit early and often in random arena, and in 12v12 I'll leave immediately if I see certain problems like quad assassins), but at least in those formats both sides are subject to the same randomness. If, say, you were forming a team in random arena, and *knew* that you were going to be playing against an organized team from team arena (which isn't even equivilent to a static PvE mission but it's closer), then you wouldn't even bother waiting for the match to start with, say, 80% of the teams that you get spawned on. You know you don't have a chance, and playing it out just wastes everyone's time, so you just keep re-entering until you get a group that does have a chance.


I know they said that, and it might be their intent - but they need to seriously re-evaluate the mechanics they're using if they want that to be a reality, because right now that just isn't the case.

Peace,
-CxE

ok i love pve its all i really play but...i love the 12 v.s. 12 battles finaly i can pvp with some meaning woot! and no /rank emote hateing thats why i never got in to HA or any form of HoH fighting its no fun you have to be a cookie cuter build to get anywhere in there and thats no fun just becuse i have a w/mo that uses sword im hated becude i dont use iway or change to ganger for the easy pet kills to up my attacks im happy with where there takeinf factions plz a net keep upo the kick a@@ work ill keep paying to get new chapters ^_^
gold furious katana of fortitude (+15% wile in stance) FTW

Did you know that that 12 vs 12 will not be radom like the weekend! The radom 12 vs pvp just for this event!

that would suck but im still happy with my katana when i get one

No it's not.

My understanding was this: PvP wins and moves the lines. Those cities now "won" would then be awarded by the alliances with the most ladder points. Since this is done once a day, largest cties are then awarded to alliances with the most and then it trickles down to outposts and smaller cities. Is this not correct? If not, what does PvP do if anything? I am just so lost. lol

There's also nothing special in anything we've seen in Factions so far either*. 12v12 is being called fun by PvPers that are playing it, why not adapt something new to PvE? There is something new about it, something we don't have now. Keep reading.

It's not total randomness at all. It would be as follows. You enter mission area and find the grouping is limited to 4 to 6 players. You build your group click "Enter Mission". One or Two other groups have done the same and the server links the two or three groups placing them in the instance. Each group is given a goal that needs to be completed. When that goal is done, another is given untill the end is reached.
The randomness comes from not knowing who the other team is, and what goal your team is going to get set with.
If any other team wipes or drops, then your team would be assigned those mission goals as well.
PvE would be easier to lure people into staying with descent drops at the end of each goal.

Eventually, the teams will interact. Either through a mid-point "video" or at the end when the final confrontation takes place.

Yea, answered above.


Can those points be universally spent in all areas of the game? Are they going to be usable in Chapter 3? Can they buy each and every comp I need for every piece of armor? Even you have to agree, they are far from close.

This is where the more forgiving nature of PvE comes to play. One doesn't have to have a perfect build in order to beat the game. Just someone who can enjoy his/her character and stay alive with it. If that Whammo with henchies claims he/she can pull it off, then go for it. If they wipe, my team will get this goals and his drops. Might take me longer to complete the missions now, but the added "goodies" will make it worth the trouble.


That's all we (PvEers) are wanting, for Anet to re-think the direction they went with Factions and redo/add some more dynamic, more interesting mission types with future chapters.

*From what I've seen and read (in this post alone) PvEers got PvP in a clown suit (still my favorite line in the thread - thank you for that ), lots of "gofer" missions (Fed-ex), missions to compete on a score board (PvP e-sports), and faction points to farm (as if farming wasn't already dull, now we get to do it a lot more). Maybe I'm missing it, but I don't see any new "dynamic" play system here for PvE. Locking cities and Elite missions is surely not a new dynamic either, we have that with in a similar flavor already with FoW and UW. The only really new dynamic is the 12v12 Alliance battles... again, PvP.
So, yea, I and many others would like some new additions to PvE other than "fluff" and "clown suit" mini games.

Lastly, correct me if I'm wrong here, I know you or someone will. PvE gets to do farm for faction points. PvE HAS to farm to get FoW and 15k armor. PvE HAS to farm to get the gold for items they want and need. PvE can opt to farm to gain drops from current Chapter 1 zones. Can Anet think of nothing for PvEers to do other than farm? I mean, wow, we get to either kill the exact same thing over and over or run the same route over and over again... No new dynamic mission maps... No new multi-team missions with multiple goals and puzzles... but hey, we get more farming...

If even if it is or isnot radom how will it take take till. it does become what pvp players want. Call it what you want it if forced pvp on pve players.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3000396

I have no clue what your first two sentences mean, but the last one: "Call it what you want it if forced pvp on pve players." 12v12 has a minor effect on PvE. You can PvE all of Factions without a guild or alliance, and all you'd miss are a few elite quests/areas and occasionally an NPC merchant won't talk to you. Big whoop. You have all the storyline quests available to you, a bunch of new weapon skins, armor looks, and pets to make you happy, and you don't even have to PvP to gain Faction. As Ensign stated above, you can take over the map without ever touching PvP.

Please feel free to lose your soul to a Korean MMORPG. This game made it clear up front it would have the full spectrum, including a focus on PvP alongside traditional PvE content. I'm sure you disregarded this fact with the large amount of preview events and superb content. It is not Anet's fault if you demand the the sheer amount of PvE content of MMORPG's, yet aren't paying or being forced to grind.

Anet is connecting into the vibe of most new games - conflict. To be blunt: it will sell. Anet's economic model is in selling those expansions, so a common trend needs to be followed. They aren't doing this coldly, however, as they appear to have a true desire at unifying the playerbase. Count yourself lucky that Anet would never think of server transfering epic players to endlessly gank your new character.

Besides, you don't worry yourself, there are plenty of farmers on PvP WoW servers. Count yourself lucky you won't be ganked by people 10 levels lower then yourself due to you stuttering "pee vee pee?" Pure PvE is still viable, Anet has just offered incentive to broaden your skills (puppy dog AI is a shame, isn't it? - albeit a rabid puppy!). I think players need to experience the game in the full spectrum. Unlocking skills conventionally as well as chasing that faction down. Go out and experience the whole game, it will give you better perspective on your skills.

Ok so why don't they go change HA why PVE! I really hope anet doesnot market this faction as RPG! they should be clear what it is! Why pve depended on pvp?Why can't pvpdepended on pve?

Technically they did. HoH became HA and the former HoH became an elite PvE instance which unleashed green item sets to the fans, if I'm not mistaken?

Let's not forget the poor Minion Master. A staple of PvE, he suddenly found out he rocked 12v12. "Change" is a relative term. You are just so biased you only look at the change on "your" side.

That is where you ar wrong! In the business worl you mean what you say! You say what you mean!

HA is still pvp, until they place npc in it it has not become anything but pvp!

Where I come it is about facts, I am far from byuss! You can't call guild wars RPG! There is some bad rpg in the game and littlle of it. So I want to see how anet will market this product. They focus more pvp more than anything else.

Your a professer you should know how the legal system works! Why do you need me to tell you. You should be well aware what is facts and is not!

He meant tournament games were moved to Heroes' Ascent, while the old Tomb of the Primeval Kings became a high-level PvE area.

I still fail to see how PvP affects PvE in Factions any more than it does already in Prophecies.

Most so-called "RPG" videogames nowadays have little of the Role-Playing in it. If you really want an RPG, play a pen-and-paper game like Dungeons and Dragons. If you want real grind, play another MMO. Arenanet stated that this was to be a CORPG, or "Competitive Online Role-Playing Game". That's right, competitive. As in Player versus Player.

I really think that pvp is froced on pve players. One does not have to llook to far to see it. You have to chosse a side. You can't even do the story based mossions with out even a taking a side. Pvp is no longer an opation but forced.

As for rpg I can get stanard game terms for you! When look at them you really cannot class GW as RPG.

In several single-player RPGs, you choose a side too. Example - in Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, you can choose Light or Dark side. Doesn't make it PvP.

Um... of course you can't do a mission without a mission.

Get those standard game terms for me. You'll find that in video games, the term RPG can mean a variety of things.

Thank you for the clearification, Savio.

I was delighted to get my Professor POST RANK (duh?) as I haven't losted around here in rougly 5 months. I like to get my posts with grammar, spelling, and punctation wrapped up in a more involved process then some of the chatter spewed out.

In terms of me speaking about the economic goals of Anet, it's what they've said up-front. Also, any game of this genre is an RPG as you are in the ROLE of your CHARACTER PLAYING in a GAME. But please note all MMORPG referances were to WoW. Guild Wars is not in that classic MMORPG category as it lacks a monthly fee.

Now thats just funny heheheh

And...Anet shoots their foot off with a rocket launcher...I'm going to read that conversation in hopes that there is a saving grace, but that just seriously pissed me off.

Edit:RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO. Unfortunately; nothing more than that; no follow-up responses, no answeres as to how difficult/possible it will be to change you/your guilds Faction if you so choose.

This worries me...

haaaaaaaaaaaahahahahah! haaaa! haaahaahaa! haha...haha...heh..hehe...ha...


sorry...sorry... too much irony.

mind if i slip you a ray of hope?

Gaile did not differentiate betweem the super elite control of town/city missions and the storyline missions.

as Anet headand developers have said

*there are a few super hardcore elite missions/quests geared to the control of a city/town*

*these few ultra hardcore missions/quests are optional and will tax the best players*

NOW THAT PLACES 99.99% OF THE PEOPLE YELLING I CANT HAVE IT IN THE POSITION OF WHEN THEY GET IT THEY WILL FAIL IT MISERABLY

Yeah, I do kind of get that vibe, The Jade and Aspenwood mission/quests pretty much force it on PvE'ers.

They are exactly the same as HoH based PvE instances open through the Temple of Ages. People are just afraid of change, or know full-well their skills cannot handle a better game and are afraid they will fall out of place. It will be fine. Please just go spend the time you sit making silly postings and improve your skills. Perhaps one day the HealBot blues will be a marvel to the new level of skill even in the average PUG. As it stands now, they're doomed.

It is the player who makes the game, not the developer who caters to the vegetable.

Loviatar: thanks for trying but the key word in that quote on my post was faction. Not owning a city; Kurzick versus Luxon.

the renewable quests were a way to prevent people from having to PvP but still enjoy the majority of the PvE game. Without that, I don't see how people can change fation--maybe even retrieve enough fation to use merchants!--if they don't PvP.

Some days I'm off my game. Or some days I don't feel like PuGing (and then there are all too many where the PuG just...SUX!). When i do, I don't want to be penalized becaue my standing with Luxon is too low; denied the option to help a guildie through a mission because I just sold off my points for Jadite.

This takes away a point of easy swap between alliances for end-game players. Part of the communal PvE spirit I saw (admittidly in my own mind) is destroyed by Gaile's words. Instead of PvPvEers saying "Hey! Luxon's getting their butt kicked! less go help them you're relegated to only the other, mroe greedy option of 'Hey! Luxon's getting their butt kicked! Lets go...farm..."

From what I know so far, is if you want to talk to Luxons (merchants) you have to have higher Luxon faction starting from zero. Meaning, you have to zero it out, and then gain Luxon faction before gaining any Kurzick, and vise versa.
Having to constantly zero it out, means constant farming. Missions require 10k in the FPE, we've seen no indication that will be different in the full release. So, doing a mission will be nearly impossible unless you PvP or are online all the time to farm. Here's why:

New armors 15k versions require the faction points for the items. So, if you want the armor, you have to spend the points.
You'll need to constantly feed the alliance ladder so a heavy constant stream of faction points will have to be pouring in. Again, spending points.
You want access to the missions? More points are needed to gain entrance (Jeff Strain said "purchasing entrance" with points - so unless they change this, or there are other points...), more points needed.

Look at the amount of farming to get anything done. If you don't farm it, you PvP it.
Now, here's the real kick in the pants. Say your a casual gamer, the gamer that Anet claims to be targeting. You log in Tuesday, farm your points, contribute to your alliance and log off, your time is up for the night.
Wednesday you log on and find your alliance buddies are heading in for one of the elite missions. You can't join cause you aided your alliance ladder, now you get to go farm again. When your done farming, your buddies have already entered the mission and your time is almost up. Thurday night comes along and now your ready, but the border is moved and your locked out of the mission. Your hardcore buddies have already zero'd out their faction and are ready to enter the other sides elite mission cause they've faction farmed all day. Again, you're left out cause you haven't the time to farm non-stop.

I am one of those life-less nitwits that play 6 to 8 hours a day, so this is a null issue for me. However, 90% of my guild is a casual gamer that plays at max two hours a day, but mostly one hour. That leaves me to finding PuGs to get the missions done. No thanks.
It's not change we fighting against, it's change we're fighting for. Change the point system, change the locking of content, and for heaven's sake, change the players so we have toes... (Minus Sign gets that one).

Also, it's late and I rambled... my apologies. Been a long day.

Then you would agree this game is lacking in RPG or weak.( I would call it a hack and slash) I am glade you know your terms. I would have to disgree that the terms comes from WOW. Rpg has been around alot longer than WOW. Rpg has roots all the way to D&D. Some would even say rpg started when J.R.R Tolken made the book lord of the rings. It is true no game can ever get the true feel of RPg in a computer game,thus you have what alot players now call grind. But as soon as you fight another person it is no longer becomes an RPG. It is human vs human or Player vs player. A Professor should know that.

You have to for give my spelling, I am what people call gifted. Enlgish is my worst subject. However it doesnot mean I am not Educated, In fact I am. They say I do have a very High IQ. But we both know IQ really means nothing. LOL I am respected in the field I am in right now. I am no Professor, I don't want to ever spend the time to become one, I am happy where I am. However I have to say, I know what I am talking about. Normally when I am writing a paper, It takes days. However you are on the net so I don't have the time to go over my work. for people who want to help in my grammer jsut send me an e-mail I will take the time to fix it.

That being said I would like to know what kind of Professor are you. Just because your Professor does not mean you know alot on this subject of games people play.



But not to you Professor I know that you know your terms. I personaly think that your views are just a little darken. I guess I am challenge you Professor to prove me wrong. Please don't use a big vocab LOL. I know how some Professor like to use them. I do have a very good vocab but I like things simple. I only use big words when I have no other way to express my self. LOL

rpg terms
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massive...e-Playing_Game
pve terms
http://internetgames.about.com/od/glossary/g/pve.htm
pvp terms
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_versus_player

more terms on pvp
http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/PvP
more terms on rpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game


Now ask you self where does GW fit in these terms! Would you say that guild wars is an RPG? I Would give better details on terms but being this is the net I am limited.

@Dreamhunk

First, off I would have to say spell check would help a lot (even if it is an email spell check). This will allow people that are not too familiar with the Typonese side of the English Language.

Second, a large majority of RPG end game goals are PvP based. What AN is doing is tying them more closely together. They are not forcing you to Pvp they give the players some end-game content and from my understanding of factions pvp only effects pve in alliance stuff which in no way effects the storyline pve. During the event did AN force you to pvp to unlock stuff or did they force you to play in Fort Aspenwood or Jade Quarry. The answer to these would be no. The Choosing a side is tied to both the PvP portion and the PvE storyline as seen in the Kurzick Only Mission "The Eternal Grove" and the Luxon only mission "Gaya Hatchery" missions.

Third, If you don't like the way AN has done GW just do not play it. A game full of with more PvE oriented content I would recommend for you would be Diablo II or Runescape to a lesser extent. These are just the free to play online games, but you could always get a Pay to Play game like WoW. WoW's game end-game is mainly PvP as well and you choose a side on there too. Another choice for an online Pay to Play would be Ever Quest.

I believe AN has done a good job so far in what they have done with GW. They are not perfect, but nothing in the world is perfect and try not to judge GWF too harshly till you see what all it has to provide. The event this past weekend was only a sample of what you will see in the full game and remembers they do consider what the fine people that post on Fan sites like this one and many like it. AN is doing their best on GW and its following chapters so please bare with them.

~Konohamaru

P.S.
Acting like you know everything and are never wrong is never a good thing to post as everyone is wrong at times.

Yeah, that's pretty much correct, though I'm not sure about the update period. All that PvP does really is determine whether the cutoff point for town control is, say, the top 15 alliance standings or the top 25. Where individual alliances will fall in those standings is largely unrelated to PvP.


Ok, sure, mixing up the goals a bit wouldn't be a bad thing. But why does that other team matter? Will my success or failure in the mission depend upon them at all? If not why are they even there?

Basically I'm looking for a way for this to happen without those other teams either being meaningless, or just random failure chances.


The reward system of pretty much every MMO has been completely ass-backwards. The fastest way to get rich is almost universally through grinding out mobs with the smallest team you can get away with. Why is that the behavior you want to reward? DDO is the first MMO that I know of that got it right - you don't want to reward people for killing monsters, but for completing mission objectives. If you want to gain levels or wealth in that game you're best served by teaming up with a bunch of people and completing a (repeatable) mission and its objectives. It rewards people for playing the game the right way, not for ignoring those missions and just grinding goblins or something.

A pity that game is so terrible otherwise.


You can't buy any of the things in the game that I really care about with gold - guild rating, fame, faction, skill points. All that you can buy with them are trinkets for PvE toons. Granted that's why they exist - gold pieces *are* the currency of PvE trinkets after all. But ultimately wealth is just a scoring system that I really don't care for.


In other words PvE is really easy. That's a selling point for a lot of people, to be fair. But to me, the way to make PvE interesting is to pose difficult problems, and if all the new problems have to be easy because they cater to the lowest common denominator, then it really isn't a gametype that will ever be able to hold my interest.


So, effectively, instead of the other teams being random, uncontrollable failure conditions, they are merely random conditions that may or may not lengthen the mission or add additional stages?

C'mon, I'm looking for a compelling gameplay benefit - which very well may be there - not a needlessly complex random number generator.


It's a difficult problem, because if you look at the mass market, gofer quests, level grind, and farming are the most popular pasttimes in the PvE demographic. Look at how successful World of Warcraft is, dominating the entire MMO market with a formula that doesn't pretend that it's anything deeper than those things. Similarly look at how disliked missions that deviate from the PvE linear-monster-steamrolling-quest norm are.


There are lots of other things for PvE players to do, none the least of which is exploring the entire map and finishing all of the optional objectives. Still most players choose to ignore those goals for the more tangible GP objective.

It isn't a matter of there being different objectives. People want there to be sexy loot and they want to farm to get it. Call it stupid, but that's the demand of the market.


I have yet to see a dynamic map or quest system that wasn't a parody of itself in any venture.


Which as far as I can tell still don't make a lick of sense.


Puzzles are a pretty laughable addition really. Not only is it really hard to come up with a new puzzle, but it's something that only lasts a couple days before it's solved, and that solution becomes widely known. Plus it's rather trite because PvE in and of itself *is* a puzzle due to its static content.

Multiple simultaneous goals would of course be an interesting thing, even if they would very likely cause pick up groups to go down in flames at a remarkable rate. Just look at the closest thing to this that we have in Chapter 1, Thunderhead Keep, and tell me how well you think teams would handle needing to be in two places at once.

Is that the real benefit of multiple, random teams? It makes the split explicit and thus idiot proof?


This scenario is unrealistic. Casual gamers will not gain control of towns, nor gain access to elite missions, unless Factions is a miserable failure in the marketplace. Things like elite missions and having to maintain faction standing are concerns that really don't apply to you at all.

Peace,
-CxE

interview at gamingsteve.com Jeff Strain says lines will be drawn once a day. Thus making actual mission planning with a group of friends impossible for casual gamers. See more below.

So then we both agree that Anet has failed in keeping the casual gamer base as it's main target? Is that what I am seeing? Time and time again Jeff Strain has commented on keeping the casual gamers into the game, but as we can see, and you agree, there's no point in the casual gamer to continue on in anything but a PvP game play.

The elite missions and elite content do concern me as much as any other player. I paid for it, I paid for access to it and they are my goals. Being locked out of it due to poor design (which is what I and so many others are concerned about) is not right. What I see your saying, and from what Jeff Strain has said in his interview on gamingsteve.com is that after Factions version of ascention, the casual gamer can go ahead and quit cause he/she is done and has little hope of getting into end game content (unless they are lucky). Because, at this point, we pick a side and begin the point farm and faction working. So, if the casual gamer stays, they are nothing more than a faction point farmer for his/her alliance (yea, that's fun - not) or again, they get really lucky.

Unfortunatly, that scenario is completely realistic and not at all grasping. From one day to the next you can not know who will have control of the city, therefore you can not plan as a guild, group or alliance on what missions (elite or other wise) you want to do during the week. So spending faction points is risky yet needed.
You don't care about the gold pieces cause they serve you little. I feel the same about points. Those "trinkets" are what the goals of a PvE player are, and is why the farming is needed. Thus we have the distinct differences of the play styles showing.

You also say that Faction would be a complete failure if the casual gamer can gain access to the elite content. I say Factions is a complete failure if they can't gain access to it. There's no reason at all that each and every person that pays for the game not be able to enjoy the game in the way they find fun. Locking content is not fair no matter how one looks at it. I for one would enjoy seeing all PvP arenas and 12v12 battles locked out untill enough faction points are farmed and spent to gain access. One battle for 10k faction points. Battle is over, farming time again. See, not fair nor fun.

If single alliances are able to hold and monopolize cities and missions, the system is broken and a complete and utter failure. If only a couple of alliances are able to do the same, then Anet has failed in it's "balanced" game play. Every single alliance should have access to this content at one point or another. I know that goes against everything competitive about the build, but again, some of us don't want the competitve game play. We want the new elite missions and drops we were told we could get. Anet can't seriously think to force all it's players into alliance farming teams, that's just... I don't even have a word for that nonsence. That's just not even fun.

Since "failure" is obviously a point of view term, it can apply both ways, can we agree on that?

It is easy do to a lack of creative mobs in the game thus far. I saw some much improved mobs in Factions. Unique skills and abilities that players don't have access to really made the mobs more interesting to battle. They were still pretty easy, but hopefully we see some improvement going forward. As a former EQer for many (too many) years, I'm used to mobs where an entire group had to work on one at a time other wise they would wipe us out. The mobs here in GW are very easy to take down. I would like mobs like that again, but I can't see how that would work with GW system of play. Especially since there is no real way of locking down multiple foes and too few people (in PuGs especially) actually call and share targets. There is also a major lack of a real aggro system. That's another thread though.

In close, the point of view I see constantly from those that enjoy PvE and PvP is that Factions is going to be great. Oddly, that's what I keep saying and keep getting ripped for saying. As the conversation grows, those that ripped me for saying Factions is great for people that enjoy both are suddenly saying the same thing or saying the game is competitive based (PvP - and again what I had said before). I have also heard time and again, that PvE is easy and is nothing but a farm-fest. I agree with that as well and when offering up possible improvements to the PvE game, "Stop signs" are placed up with no way around them. Instead of shooting down any and all possible improvements to the game, how about some suggestions that do not pit players vs players.

So it seems to me, once we've "ascended" in Factions; PvE need not apply unless you want to farm* almost non-stop. Casual gamers need not apply as you'll not be granted access to elite areas "unless Factions is an utter failure" - that sounds like a fun game to me. Jeff Strain says in his interview that "ascention" in Factions happens much faster than it did in Chapter 1. I believe the ratio was Chapter 1 to ascention was 40% of game time, and in Factions it's 10% to 20%.

*Yes, there are quests and missions to do. But, once those are done? Farm. And I say again, why farm points when you can farm gold and have the cash you'll want for Chapter 3 in six months? Makes no since to me.

Anet cares about one thing: $$

If it pisses off the entire player base but brings in twice as many people who know absolutely nothing about anything than they will do it. Theyre pretty careless and look at things as a business rather than it just being an enjoyable game. Thats why im not buying Factions and if this were PayToPlay I would've canceled my account a very long time ago. The fact that its free is the only thing that keeps me coming back from time to time.

In Conclusion: Anet = Careless Bigots.

Huh no that would be Every other MMORPG company in existence. if anything anet has been extremely liberal in allowing free and open access to their networks for no value added cost. Look at all the new content we got in Chapter 1 for no additional cost. none of these added content is in the CD you purchased. Yet you have access to it all for free... If anything that proves Anet is not all about profit... I think they do a pretty good job giving everyone a little something they want. They balance out the requests pretty fairly. Obviously they don't want to destroy the game play value of the game so they can not bend to every whim of fancy... But they do give an awful lot to PvE and PvP communities. And with the Canthan addition they are extending that to new levels. Encouraging but not requiring faction battles in PvE. With the quests, you can continue the storyline on through to completion and not even bother doing Faction battles if you do not want too. However if you do, there is no reason to believe that it will lessen your enjoyment of PvE questing. And for hard core PvPers, well they get even more new areas to fight in. with new options for game play... If anything it may be boycotted by the PvPers for making it so easy to allow PvE people into their precious territory by having limited random player selection for the alliance battles. Personally I like that more people are getting exposure to the full game... with less potential of Elitist attitudes from the PvP people locking out new players with rank or armor requirements.

Like what? The fact that you actually have to play the game rather then do the same thing over and over again to exploit it? What exactly did they do to bring more people in that pissed off the community? nothing I can think of. If anything it pissed off the people that were bringing the game down... And hey not all that long ago you didn't know crap about the game either. Why treat other new people like scum just because you bought the game a few months earlier... Who exactly is the bigot in this conversation???

Boy thats the best news I have heard to date. Maybe then Cantha will be free of your kind huh? Sounds like the place to be to me... Heck I would even pay a subscription if it meant being rid of your kind. Anet will not stoop that low however... So you can thank your lucky stars, that you will continue to get a place to play for free and continue to get updates for free all because ArenaNet cares for the general public that play their games...

Must of the end game game content and weapons are locked off. So if I want them I am forced pvp.

I have play alot of these mmorpg alot of them are weak when it comes RPG. However at least they are putting the RPG first and working on it, Pvp is a after thought. The compies that are making mmorpg main focus is RPG. Not the other way around. Another thing never did I say I know ever thing! I don't have a professor tittle. I know alot on this subject more than the average person. I don't need to go in to my full background.


Some of quests stories are not even well developed. I am also saying that Anet needs work on what pve players want not force them in things they don't want to do.


Last note maybe Anet doesn't care who buys this game. Maybe your right they are only after my money. If they care so much why are they forcing me to play pvp. Why are they locking me out of end game stuff? Why has not the rpg gotten better after all the fourms posts people have talked about.

All I hear coming from Anet is pvp, pvp, pvp and pvp! I don't even hear any thing about RPG! People can't even say GW is RPG base or not. It is not clear to alot of people out there. You are getting alot of people calling this a pvp game not a RPG! If that is the case it is miss leading to people buying this product! If you want futher proof of this ask I and I will show you!

P.S
If you are taking on a Professor tittle you better know your stuff.

the PVP content in the game account for less the 25% of the game. I don't know why you people are always crying about lack of RPG in the game. There is tons of stuff do do outside of the Battle Ilse or Alliance battles... I think you just don't like the style of RPG it is. and as such complain a lot. None of the other MMORPGs did it any better or worse then anet. Maybe larger mobs and parties, but that is not what I personally want in a game... That is why I came to GW. not PvP, Not Free to play. but the aspects of instances... Which is much like another popular yet aging game called Phantasy Star Online. same concept Towns and outposts where everyone forms parties then they go into private instances for the missions and quests... Adds to alot of re-playability to the game.

It is a game, not a way of life... I don't want a RPG that included biological movements, and the requirement to do tedious farming and grinding to accomplish a minor task like upgrading armor or weapons... I want to walk into a game and play for a few hours a day or a few hours a week, and it not matter one way or another in the game. I can go gungho like I did over the event weekend and play for 50+hours over the weekend, or I can pop on for an hour or two and play with some friends in HoH or doing a quest or mission or something... Can you say the same of games like EQ2, or WoW, or Matrix online, Or linage 2, Or Galaxies? Nope! those game require so much attention that if you leave the game for something else (LIKE REAL LIFE!) on occasion, you really cut your own throat in the game cause getting into groups is pretty hard then... Same if your new to the game. If your a new player in WoW you have ZERO chance of getting with a good party for a very very long time. Maybe after 2 months of hard grinding nonstop, you will be up to a level that you will be accepted into groups for ZG. Or whatever. I guess I was lucky in WoW I was with a good group in Beta that I played with when I wanted too. and it was never a big deal, but when I lost contact with some of them and interest in WoW, it was really not worth the effort in playing anymore... I moved on to GW because it was just what I wanted a casual players MMORPG, and just about everyone I played with during the original betas are still playing the game today, so that was a big thing for me... And it was easy on the wallet to boot. Unlike all the other games I have sitting on my shelve gathering dust now...

I must say that I am happy with Guild Wars and I am a PvE only person. Due to the fact that I have a full time job, a wife, and a 2 year old little boy I don't have the time to "practice" PvP. I wish that I could do more PvP but who would want me. I am not rank 6+ or whatever the standard is for today. In fact, I am rank nothing and I have been playing GW the beta weekends.

This is where these arguments of PvE and PvP stem from. I have ascended 4 characters and my wife has ascended 3. We have never seen between the 2 of us a Sup Vigor, Sup Absorbtion, or any of the truly great max gold weapons. Between the 2 of us we have roughly 800-900 hours of play time. Yet a PvP only person can farm some fame and "Buy" this good stuff. A PvP player can also switch armor around at will to get the best effect by just making a new player. For me to get the best effect from my armor I have to buy multiple pieces of armor and runes to go with that armor. This process can cost many 10s of thousands of plat.

Oh well, I will just stick to my little PvE world and hope I dont miss out on anything because the Elite PvP players don't want me around learning from them.

I am fighting for you trust me LOL and the people who can't pvp or anything like that.

If Anet cares so much they should find a better way for people to have acess elite missions and all fun stuff about pve! If Anet cears they will works on what pve or rpg players love and wants!


Where is the fun for everyone bite that Anet promised!

Well now for a long time I was one of the voices crying out about unfairness towards PvE but after thinking it over very carefully I've determined that they do the best they can to give everyone what they want. The reason PvP is the way it is is because PvPers have to bring their own content to the game. Honestly there are only so many interations of death matches and capture the flag you can run before it gets old. We PvE people on the other hand get new weapons and armor and monsters every time they make a new game not to mention the periodic updates and add ons.

I think the best bet is for the PvE population to find ways to enjoy what we have been given just like the PvP people have to do.

When you spend your money for a product why should you. When I read the contents of the box I am going by what it says.

That being said I hope Anet is clear when they market this product.

This where you are wrong PvP unlocks in no way effect the weapons/Runes/Upgrades of PvE. So for this I point you are in correct on and I should know quitea buit on this since I have played almost 3,723 hours on gw 3,000 of it being PvE so I think I do know quite a bit about it.

First, off the way you sound like you are never wrong thats what makes you sound like you know everything. I will admit that I get some things wrong, but I do my best to provide as much of a straight forward awnser as I possibolly can. Second, PvP wasn't the first though or the last thought it evolved at the exact same time as the PvE portion of the game did.

I will agree with you on this point some of the quests could of been done better and if they are the GWF quests remember they are still in the alpha stage and will be for another month. The quests you know for the most part are Optional save for some of the Primary Quests of course.


Of course AN cares about who buys their games. How are they locking you out of end game stuff? How are they Forcing you to PvP? It definately is not because of unlocks as they DO NOT effect pve at all since they are unuseable in pve.

If they wanted the game to be PvP do you think they would of added any of the PvE content in the last event at all. One of the End game Goals is PVP, but they do provide end game content for PvE as well.

Well, sir you should "know your stuff "as well cause you have given more false information than I have. I may not be perfect, but I can say I do know quite a bit about these sorts of games. I have played aprox. 6-7 years of RPGs, so I do know quite a bit, but not everything.

~Konohamaru

When I am talking about locked out I mean the elite missions. I think everyone should has access ro them just not pvp guilds who hold towns. That is my bad i should have been more clear. it is is forcing people to do what they don't want to do.

When you look at jeff stat ments you hear nothing about pve or rpg for that matter. all you really hear is pvp and what pvp will get.

I also think think you asume to fast. I am far from a type of guy who thinks he knows everything.

Now if anet cares so much why is the things that Pve want are not a addressed. For exmple the EOE update who are they really crating too. You are having pvp players saying this is not an RPG game, it is a pvp!


there is very little role playing in GW game, I only see more pvp.

i think this is one of the best ideas on this or any thread.

i am completely PVE and still find things to do besides farming.

i also have a permanent character in presear for vacations and expect to keep a new character in the Cantha monestary as Gaile said itwas even nicer than presear.