Anets response to the celestial sig problem

The "jerks" already are, I'm seeing people asking for 6-7 gold, unidentified items for one sigel. People like that just need to be given a big FU by the community.

And so long as one group of players control a single source of currency, aka the sigels, in this game we're going to continue having this problem.

I'm confident that ANet will soon realize this and start giving out "gold" rewards to the PvP players and sigels for PvE players.

So this is the reward for being an alpha tester? You get to play the game for 2 years, get extra information about the game engine that noone else is allowed to know, then when it is released you extort/belittle the people who didn't get in as testers and are at an obvious disadvantage.

This game is unique but I don't think it's unique in a way that was intended. Most online games at least let new folks play. I don't think anyone can just pick up a copy of Counter-Strike or Warcraft III and be the greatest player ever the first time they play. This is the first game I've seen that allows alpha testers to keep paying customers from playing the game the primary way it was advertised. Guild vs Guild

Do you really believe if this disclaimer was put on the box Guild Wars would have sold at all?:

Disclaimer: Even though the name of the game is Guild Wars in order to participate in a guild vs guild battle you must either defeat the alpha testers who know more about the ingame mechanics than you do and have 2 years more experience or you need to take a chance at paying $30 to someone on ebay.

Hahaha - nice one jdwoody. ;-)

And this elitist-approach is what annoys me the most. I don't mind what you think of PvP, I don't mind what you think of PvE, but hell, let other players go their own way without playing their gods!

"Give me all your money, all your items, so, your weapons are customised - doesn't matter - we'll just salvage them - ah, and throw in your armor as well - we could use the runes you have on it - good - now you have a sigil, go and make yourself a Guild Hall while we are swimming in our money - and don't even THINK of beating us in the HoH - we play 24/7 anyway and 50% of us were Alpha testers - have fun with your sigil" ;-)

Obviously the people who have a stranglehold on the sigil prices are going to want to keep that power. Power attracts the corruptable, and the corrupted begets the vain and vulnerable. For every post here that decries paying such high prices for a sigil, there are 5 or 10 guilds willing to fork over 80k+ gold to buy it. Those with stashes of sigils want to keep the prices high so that they can in turn buy the runes and upgrades to outfit their characters, and get items for which they never have to farm. Now they want unidentified gold salvage items because these unlock runes for all PvP characters they create.

It's a vicious cycle created by the quick and dirty PvP character system, which personally I dislike on principle. The level 20 PvP characters seemed like a good idea at first, a promise of no grind and fast entry to PvP. But what it creates is a lot of laziness on all levels of gameplay. Play the game for fun, not as an aristocrat waiting for everything to be handed to you on a silver platter. If you want to do that, go watch some television.

You want sigils easily? Fine, make ArenaNet unlock all skills and runes and stuff for PvP first. Then you can have them hand out all the sigils you want in Lion's Arch or whatever.

I'm not gonna sell mine, both as a protest, and since gold is useless anyway and won't get me anything unlocked.

#1 - No one said they want it "easy". People are (I think) mainly pissed that a select few that are hording them are charging extortion rates for a single in-game item. Just like you.

#2 - People also (I think) don't care about ladder position as much as the chance to be ON the ladder. Again, jerks holding something hostage for their own free and easy end is stupid and lame. It goes back to what I said before, a few jerks dictating to the rest of the people how to play.

#3 - People also are pissed that the PVE players are beeing treated as nothing more than rune/item farmers for the lazy PVP players.

Notice a common theme?

Aparently, the only people being lazy and trying to get something in a cheap fashion are the PVP only players hording sigils and demanding the PVE players to ***** themselves out for the highest bidder.

GJ.

Yes, by george you've got it, I started a thread that had the same thought about two weeks ago when the Sigil price was 30k


Anariel, you are one of my new heros!


The selfish and narrowminded are well represented by your statements
Thank you making the following point.

i can't believe no one has commented on this statement... In my case, I want to have a comment but I'm at such a loss for words...

Allow me to make some observations about this game and this thread.

1. The economy was broken at the very start of the game. As such, money is quite useless. It's been falling like rain for me even without selling sigils. I get 5k+ in about 10 mins during my riverside runs while farming runes.

2. The sigil winners are more or less the same people day in and day out. So it basically means that the increase sigil drops will be going towards the same people who've been winning it before. So I don't see how this "fix" would help much.

3. the reason why pvp is inherently more challenging than pve is because of the type of opponent you're facing. In the former, you're playing against different people that are capable of adapting (the most important skill any pvp player can have). While in pve, it may be challenging the first time around, but once you figure out the course of action, it simplys becomes an act of repitition.

4. the animosity between pve and pvp has grown a bit in this thread. aren't post that are direct flames normally removed?


Currently, the only two ways of obtaining a sigil is through winning the HoH (pvp way) and buying one of a HoH winner (pve way). Neither should be difficult to do for both types of players. I should point out that a sigil is solely used for buying a guild hall -- an item that is purely a status symbol to pve guilds as there is nothing you can do there but start gvg matches. Anet made sigils rare for a reason. Their philosophy was that guilds needed to earn a guild hall, not be given one. This is not too different an argument pve players make against pvp players in the skill acquisition issue.

I am also hoping they do something about elite skills, but I don't understand "gold is useless." I would think that with all the gold you have you could easily buy all the runes you want, you don't need to unlock them.

Good luck with your protest, no matter what you elites have to say about those lowly people like myself that just want to enjoy the game, at least we don't go out of our way to make you miserable.

You're again missing the point. Instead of the PVP players (and a select few at that) determining who and how and at what price PVE players pay for a sigil, this needs to be determined by AN. Not you.

Will AN's "fix" truly fix anything? I doubt it. The only real way to "fix" it is to completely separate the PVP from the PVE. PVP HoH only. Thus, those that want to simply play PVP can do so without raining on the PVE player's parade. The PVE players will still "earn" their sigil without the PVP players interfering with the PVE economy - and vice versus.

Then AN can unlock all those elite skills the PVP players are so desperate to gain for nothing.

Hehe - so we have a nice situation here:

PvP players are too lazy to unlock their skills, PvE players are too lazy to get the gold needed for a Sigil. But you know - maybe if more guilds had halls they would realize how nice GvG can be. ^^
I'm worried about the number of guilds listed on the ladder - there should be FAR more. I know, that not every newbish guild should get a GH right from the beginning, but that's exactly where my suggestion on making Sigils untradeable comes into play. As a guild leader you would have to do a real QUESTto get your guild a GH (PvE) or win the HoH the usual way (PvP) - this would amount to about the same thing that is happening now - that is: Sigils would be still hard to come by, but at least it wouldn't lead to some elitist jerks using other players as their minions for collecting runes/upgrades and getting richer and richer in the process. 0_o

Fixed.

I think he's implying that you got a nice head-start - by the time GW was out you had like 2 years of experience.

i personally don't think you need to seperate pvp players from pve players anymore than they're already been seperated. you never have to step foot in a pvp area if you're a pve player for the entire life of your ingame character.

Also, every item in the game is regulated by the laws of supply and demand. Why should sigils be different? I would also like to clear up that i don't personally set the price of sigils are 100k. Unless, you consider that by indirecting accepting the fact that someone wants to pay me 100k for my sigil that i earned, i do not as an invidual or as a representative of my guild regulate the price of sigils. supply and demand. period.

PvPers complain that they HAVE to get elites and rares by grinding. PvEers complain that they HAVE to get a guildhall somehow but can't. Guys, realize that if everything is handed to you within the first month, there is no VALUE to it. You won't feel the sense of pride of standing in a hard-earned home for your guild if you feel that you are "supposed" to get one so easily.

I think its fine how it is now. I play PvP and PvE. Currently doing the ascension trials, I have more than 10 plat and I do not farm. Combine that with a few guildmates, and you'll have enough money to buy a sigil if you're pure PvE.

PvPers need to stop using the fact that they don't have that ONE elite spell as an excuse for losses.

I also find it funny that if making money is "so easy" or "can be done in 10 minutes" then why aren't hte PVP players doing it?

Oh yeah, right, it's because in order to GET to a place where you CAN earn 5K-10K takes a PVE player TIME to invest - time spent redoing the same quests and missions over and over. Time, I might add, that is spent AWAY from playing in PVP to try and get a sigil the PVP way. And since the top guilds have a virtual lock on winning sigils, then it kind of reduces PVE players to expending that very same amount of TIME. Meanwhile, the PVP players simply keep jacking up the cost of the sigil.

Time a top PVP team would take to win one sigil in HoH - about 20-30 minutes. Time spent for an entire guild to farm 100K in gold (from pre searing all the way to ascension for each character) - about 400 hours. This is if both groups were the same, skill wise.

So....which is easier again?

No one sees the matrix-ish way this whole thing has turned into? That the PVE players are simply coppertops for the PVP machines? Isn't it sad?

I don't have to assume anything. The alpha testers got to play alot more than the rest of us. During the BWEs alpha teams held 9 of the top 10 top spots on the ladder. Alpha players were given alot more time to look at various skills and how they worked while the skills were unlocked. It has also been mentioned in these forums that during the alpha you had special clients that unlocked special pieces of the game. It would take non-alphas alot more game time to see as much as the alphas have seen. Alphas obviously have a huge advantage over the rest of us from day one. Many alphas tried to help new people, others chose to berate new people, call them "skilless" and are now actively hoarding sigils to keep other people from getting guild halls.

I'm not making excuses for anything. My guild already has a guild hall, that doesn't mean I have to stand by the sidelines and read posts about how people who don't spend every waking minute of their lives playing Guild Wars aren't "deserving" of a guild hall of their own. If arena.net really didn't want casual players they shouldn't have advertised for them.

(I never implied that alpha testers don't have to pay for guild wars)

I think too much of a line has been drawn between the PvP and the PvE player. There are countless number of people who are BOTH PvP and PvE minded, and who have both played through the missions and played through the PvP random arenas or HoH. Many PvE players have a PvP character they take through the gladiator's arena, or they will take their main character to the gladiator's arena. However, as these arenas do not give any fame points or ranks or any reward other than a paltry amount of exp, the "casual" PvPer is ignored for all intents and purposes. Yet they are spending as much time PvPing as someone who is in the HoH, if not more. The only difference is that in the HoH the fights last far longer due to arranged teams of numerous monks as well as the king of the hill fights between 6 teams which can last up to a freaking hour.

The main problem right now is that most players either do not have the organization or the time or endurance or enough monks (because let's admit it, winning HoH requires a large number of monks!) to do it. The sigil symbolizes no more skill for a particular player, PvP or PvE. You throw an extremely skilled player into a bad group in the HoH and that person isn't going anywhere. You also see a lot of people unable to PvP continuously for hours on end just to get to the end of the HoH. Are these people just PvE? Or are they just people who aren't as hardcore and have to go to the bathroom, take of their kids, etc.? I really don't think that the line distinguishing the PvP and the PvE people should be drawn so sharply. I do, however, think that the arrogant, self-righteous people who think they are better than everyone else need to get a better grip on reality. :P

I am constantly amazed by how much venom is being thrown at 'greedy, elitist PvP players' over the price of a sigil, as if that has anything to do with the price.

There are two causes for the current mess:

1) Sigils are bloody rare, likely far too rare given how important they seem to be for most people's fun. There are tens of thousands of guilds in the game, but only around three thousand sigils. It really doesn't matter how they're found or by whom, when you have serious supply issues on such a high demand item prices are naturally going to go crazy.

2) Gold is abundant. Maybe not for you, but for guilds that PvE aggressively, or for people who just play a lot later in the game, money is all over the place. The increase in the price of a sigil has not represented cold fisted sigil monopolies, but simply the increased gold supply in the game. There are no significant, lasting money sinks in Guild Wars. Cash is going to continue to build up in the economy, prices are going to continue to skyrocket, and gold is going to become worthless unless this is checked, hard.


The sigil problem has nothing to do with PvP rewards, or top guilds, or monopolies, or PvP vs PvE, or any of the other stupid little reasons where people blame each other for this mess. Sigils are getting sold to the high bidders, and those high bidders have more than you do. If you want to throw blame around, direct it at arena.net for creating a broken economy.

Peace,
-CxE

I think that fits my description very well. Thanks Blackace. And I hope all PvP guilds keep on earning Sigils and destroying them to get more PvE players to try and get to the HoH. If they like grind they'll like grinding their way to the HoH. Maybe after a while they'll get good at PvP and start playing some more which may result into a richer ladder filled with at least some form of challenge.

As Blackace also stated not many alpha testers are all that great at PvP. In fact some teams like Idiot Savants which you may have seen many times win the HoH only have 1 or 2 alpha testers on their rosters and for personnal reasons these people can't participate in PvP when the guild wins the HoH. Lots of good PvPers aren't alpha testers and are just plain old ordinary players who look outside the box and figure out skill pattern combinations that beat others.

Are PvPers better than PvEers ? I couldn't say so since one requires coordination, strategy and teamwork while the other requires patience, cooperation (not go aggro all the mobs) and the ability to shut down your brain for the duration. Both are hard TBH.

I agree with what you are saying here. While I hope that the "fix" will indeed bring the price of sigils down, I will believe it when I see it.

Again I totally agree with this statement. I have seen people offering me exorbitant amounts for what I would normally have to spend hours trying to sell. If you have some piddly items that you are hoping to sell off in an hour or 2 and possibly get 1k gold out of them, and someone comes along and offers to buy everything you are selling for 30k, it's hard to pass up. Just as I imagine if some fool is spamming "WTB SIGIL 100k" it would be damn hard not to take him up on the offer... if not to just shut him up LOL.

Thank you for emphasing this. I hope people take the time to read it.

Here we go again with the hard and fast distinction between PvPers and PvEers. Ability to shut down your brain for the duration? Hmm, let's see, I'm sure people who shut down their brains never screw up their teams to wipe during missions. No strategy whatsoever during missions either, nope. Patience? I'm sure that PvPers don't need patience when they go up against teams with 4 primary monks or hold back and not rush in all at once. /sarcasm

In any case, once again you miss the point.

People that do PvE ALSO PvP!! Is that such a difficult concept to grasp that no one can possibly comprehend it? The people that do both can excel at both. But what's happening right now is that the HoH is a flawed system at best, and a broken system at worst, of determining the worthiness of a guild to obtain a guild hall. The fact that most sigils are bought and sold rather than earned is a clear indication to many that there is no PvP necessary to get a guild hall.

Personally I have a lot of time on my hands and can stay in the HoH or farming for hours (I've done both). But many people are upset that they do not have this time and therefore are not privileged as some of you are. It doesn't mean they aren't PvPers or are carebear or stupid or inferior. The fact that people who have the time and energy to farm mobs over and over, or to farm the HoH over and over, are in conflict with each other, just goes to show that the game plan doesn't reward the casual player as AN claims, but the person with oodles of time.

Yes, let all the PvE fanboys who so rabidly oppose reducing grind for PvPers spend time grinding PvP for their sigil and see how the like it. Don't sell sigils.

Which is what people have been saying for a long time now, mostly PvPers. But the grind-loving fanboys insist that you must do boring repetitive stuff over and over, so you can "earn" stuff, even though it goes against the basic point of playing a game, to have fun.

For me the price has nothing to do with it, these quotes however are depressing as I've played alot of online games and I've never seen this much hostility aimed at new players. How can there be good competition if the players already on the top block others from even playing?

(not all these quotes are from the same person)

You never know if the "gunk" and the "insignificant" could someday become good quality players unless they get a chance to try it. Is the the HoH really the only place to learn PvP? You don't see any value in letting mid-level teams learn strategies for themselves fighting eachother rather than just putting them up against the very best from day one?

Sure I do, that's why you have to fight through several rounds against such mid level teams before you even get to the hall of heroes.

Peace,
-CxE

Yup I'm ignorant. Guilty as charged. I'm ignorant because I feel guilds should have to prove themselves worthy by spending less then 60 minutes collecting a small amount of gold.

The price hasn't really gone up due to demand or due to sigil's being rare. It's gone up for the same reason everything else has gone up in price: People can easily obtain 15k-20k an hour. It's called inflation. On top of that, people have next to nothing to waste money on. These 2 reasons are why people will easily fork 100k for a sigil. It's like paying $1 for a Dodge Viper, it's such a small amount of money you'd easily pay the $1 and not even try talking the car dealership down to 90 cents. The $1 means nothing to you compared to what the Viper means to you.

I am all for unlocking things. Give all guilds a guild hall for free. Give all the PvPers all the skills and items. Let people play to have fun, not to acquire. Unfortunately there are those who don't agree. Many of these are PvE fanboys. In protest against their narrowmindedness and the amount of grind, I am not selling sigils.

Another part of the problem is with the economy. Even if I did sell a sigil there would be no use for the gold, I'd have to grind everything myself anyway for the unlocks. Maybe if I could gamble for or buy unlocks, it would be worth selling sigils for gold. I can't. Gold is useless.

Then I guess that's where we differ, I'd like to practice teamwork/skills GvG against a similarly rated guild then work my way up rather than being thrown into the ring with 5 other guilds in a free for all.

Here is my vote on how to fix the whole mess:

Team wins HoH: 2 Sigils drop for the winning team, 2 items with runes drop for the winning team and 1 sigil drops into the sigil trader.

Then all that needs to be fixed is the elite skill aquisition and everyone can do whatever they want...

Prove themselves to you? In God's name, why? If it's that easy to farm that much gold - why isn't everyone doing it? Why isn't sigils selling like hotcakes, people buying and selling willy nilly on a stree corner in Lion's Arch? Dozens of deals in an hour?

Oh, wait, because it's NOT that easy.

But I'm glad you justify your greed in such a fashion. If it's so easy, what worth are they proving to you? That they can be your drone? And now, instead of 100K in gold, it's now moving to unID Gold items, 7-9 at a batch? Care to tell me how long it would take us unworthy to farm that? Hmmmm?

Following this line of thought of fixing the problems rather the flamebaiting, calling names and whining that life isn't fare...

From reading the fourms and playing game way too much there seems to be two problems assocated with Guild Wars thats centric around the PvE vs the PvP communities that simply raising the number of sigels in the game will NOT fix.

In simplified arguments
1. PvP players are "force to grind"/"earn" their skills and spells, their runes, and their weapon upgrades.

2. PvE players are "screwed over by"/"providing needed materials and gold to" PvP players.

I'm wary of throwing this out there, because I really hate posts that say "this is how you fix the game", but I would like some feedback or discussions on these ideas.

Brief Description
1. Introduce a PvE enviornment/quest were sigels can be earned by the PvE guilds.
2. Introduce armor drops for winning the HOH that have a chance of giving runes.
3. Introduce "skill charm" type drops for winning the HOH.

Detailed Description
1. After completing enough quests in an Underworld or Fissure type mission award X number of sigels to the players. This would help elimiate one group of the community holding something that the other wants without the first from earning it themselves while playing the game the way the want to (aka "having fun").

2. Have gold, purple, and blue armors awarded at random to the team who holds the hall. These drops could be based on high level drop tables, and could be easyly balanced. This would allow one group of the community to play how they want to, and earn the materials they need (aka "having fun").

3. Award a type of rune or charm that would unlock a random skill/spell. This could behave much the same way runes are currently working now, an "ID" would unlock it while "using" it would let your character learn it. Again these charms could be random with "gold" charms having a high chance at an elite skills and lesser charms awarding more common skills.


So, would the community think there is any merit in these ideas?

Any constructive criticism?

Would this throw off the balance of the game, or help fix the percieved imbalances?

Have these options already been discuessed and I just missed the posts?

Rothgar

I have yet to hear someone say they've had troubles selling a sigil at 100k. Go to any tomb district and you'll see lots of people in chat willing to pay 100k for a sigil. That pretty much tells me everyone does have 100k, except maybe you and a few others who are still level 18 in LA.

Yes I'm greedy because I have boatloads of cash and nothing to spend it on. Or maybe I'm just the better player. You decide.

From reading through more of this thread as it's grown, there's obviously alot of assumption being tossed around that the issue surrounding sigils and their current prices is based on *PvE players vs PvP players*

Try and look beyond that or at least from the perspective that there's more than one route to getting to the HoH. The players who simply don't enjoy the pve aspects of the game typically spend less time there, and more time in pvp, that being their primary focus. Obviously though, there's a large number of guilds / players who enjoy actually exploring the richly detailed world that ANet created, don't feel it necessary to blow through explorable content as if it's simply a road-block etc.

If you've played much of both aspects of the game, you'll quickly note the major differences of play style required between pve ( an example being my nec thrives with death magic in pve ) vs. pvp ( where builds *too* corpse dependant become less effective )

It's no suprise then, that the guilds currently winning the HoH on a daily basis, and have high ranks on the guild ladder have most often had more of a pvp mindset / experience within the game. It's also no big suprise then that it is indeed the highest ranked gvg guilds are also those same select few you see with multiple HoH win streaks on a daily basis.

The thing here is ... just to get *on* the guild ladder in the first place, you're already having to compete agains the top ranked guilds via the HoH, correct ? I'm sorry, but it does feel more like full-on grind to work your way to the hall countless times only to be beaten by a top ranked guild the moment you get there.

In other words, just to get put on the guild ladder at 1,000 and begin working your way up your guild must first beat a guild in the top 50 or so.

Thus the selling of sigils to guilds who want an actual *fair* run at gvg, and working their way up the ladder via events against similarly skilled / ranked guilds. Myself and my guild choose to win our guild hall rather than buying it, but in the process, we first must either A ) Defeat a top ranked guild in HoH or failing that and were we to choose to purchase one with consideration of the extreme lack of usefulness of the Sigil Trader we'd have to then B ) Spend time farming gold for the express purpose of handing it over to ... you guessed it ! a top ranked guild.

*That* is where guilds who enjoy pve vs guilds who focus 100% on pvp differ, and how it fits into sigils and guild halls. Unless a larger number of sigils become available to the general player base, then basically before you even get a chance to be # 1,000 on the ladder, you have to defeat / pay large amounts of gold to the very top ranked.

( last note for those who constantly claim that gold comes in piles later in the game ~ From making capture runs on Perdition Rock which required more than one person since I'm not a *built for farming w/mo*, the fact is that it took over an hour to clear the entire island, moving at a fairly decent pace, and per person in the team not a single one of us walked away with a full plat ... so the * your guild of 20 people can farm that much in less than an hour * arguement simply isnt based on the reality of actual drop rates of gold / items at the end areas of the game )

This would really work... I'd like to see that.

Well it appears to me that ArenaNet's goal here is to make PvP feasible for players who avoid PvE like leprosy, but at the same time provide PvPers who don't mind PvE some form of incentive. If you give the same rewards for pvp as you do pve, then that incentive is lost, and many players will pvp exclusively since there's nothing in pve for them that they can't get through pvp.

Everyone is doing it. Why aren't you?


Because 5 drop per hour. Total.


I love how anyone who sells to the high bidder is a bad, greedy person who needs to be reprimanded for their evils.


Yeah, because gold is worthless, while unidentified rare armors are worth something. What are we going to do with gold, anyway? There's nothing to spend it on.


Who cares? My market is guilds who can farm such items in a few hours and save me the trouble.

Peace,
-CxE

I think that teams that want a meeting place should have one. Better them to have an area to meet then to all jump in a certain district at a certain city. Having a hall for your guild seems like a pretty big part of an RPing guild to me, and I would assume that most PvE guilds are RPing guilds.

I think it is funny that the constantly whiny PvP players are doing everything they can to keep other guilds from entering the competition - they will do it the long way, get their hall eventually, and go beating you, giving you something else to complain about.

This thread is not really a complaint about a problem, unless you consider PvP only people as a problem. They are amusing, that's all. I am sure after many lectures they will finally get us to understand that they have awesome skills, and that people that want to PvE must lack those skills.

Before there is any further confusion between the generally ignorant PvP people (that is a true statement, every time I see an argument on these forums it is the PvP only guys not understanding the PvE people), and the generally lousy at informing PvE people, let me explain:

PvP guilds are necessarily more active than the PvE guilds. The PvE guilds are looking for enjoyment more than competition, and do not need to be on as much to enjoy playing the game. A 40 player PvE guild is probably LESS active than a 20 man PvP guild. This means raising money for PvE guilds takes a long time.

It has come to the time in the game where the PvE guilds are at a number they are happy with, and ready to move on to casually do PvP. Let me make clear that the PvE people do not want to rush into PvPing, they just want to continue doing new and fun stuff when they log onto GW.

Up until this point, PvE guilds have been enjoying themselves on the quests, leveling up multiple characters, and hanging out with each other. They do not HAVE tons of cash. Farming is usually pretty far out of PvE players minds - that is not fun, so they didn't feel like doing it.

Now PvE wants to move onto PvP, and the PvP teams have control over who enters the PvP.

The PvP teams are treating the PvE teams as if they are other PvP teams - IE, they assume that the time the PvE guilds have spent on the quests and leveling up part of the game has also been spent farming, and plowing through the game simply to gain gold and items rather than to slow down and enjoy it. PvE players believe in working for things in GW, but a sigil is not one of them. It is like a pass to play a part of the game, not earning levels up or doing quests or finding a weapon. Buying a pass to play is just completely opposite of what most PvErs are trying for in the game.

In this competitive spirit, the PvP teams are charging huge amounts for the sigils (they assume that either the PvE teams have the money, that they will get the money, or that the PvE guilds actually threaten them on the competition ladder).

So now the PvE guilds are at a point where they have done everything there is to do before PvP, want to continue in to PvP, but need to farm every time they get on to do so.

The PvE people are more likely to start another character or stop playing than spend their time farming - so sigils end up getting hoarded as the PvE players continue going to look for something fun to do.

I personally do not have a lot of time each day to play. I am not going to spend my time hoarding items to sell so my guild can hopefully afford a sigil. I already gave all my money to the guild. When I get on GW now, I just play on my new character.

Final point: PvP teams need to understand that they are not going to get any benefit out of charging high for the sigils. The PvE teams that want to turn hardcore PvP may buy them, but the others will likely wait until it suits them, or until prices drop.

Look at that, I just wasted all my GW time posting. Please just start charging less so PvErs can keep playing the game at their slower pace. This is a problem brought about by PvP guys once again having probs with the way the game was intended to be played... it is an MMORPG as well, sorry if you want to be supercompetetive but GW is probably going to still have a majority of players that treat it like an RPG. If you want to keep being really competetive about this area, go ahead... it just means less fun for the PvP teams in the end, as they have less teams to play, while the PvErs repeat the game with new chars or find other amusements (or even spend a long time saving up for a sigil). The game was intended for both sides to enjoy GvG, whether casual or competetive, just like it was intended for the PvPers to need to experience the PvE part at least once to be truly competetive. Be aware that by making there be an item for GvG competition in the first place, GW kept unfit guilds from being allowed to trash up GvG. As long as Guilds hold the item and give it out carefully, there will be no rediculously weak guilds in the competition. There should be more worry about how few guilds are competing as opposed to weak guilds competing - like I just noted the weak guild problem was addessed before the game was released.

Lets hope this works out quickly, I would enjoy doing a few GvG games as opposed to leveling up another character. I made all the points I wanted to, I think... they are probably out of order because I am tired. To anyone that read this far, thanks for your time and good luck deciphering this post... get back to me when you find out what it says.

Edit: oh geeze I missed one point: Ensign, wake up - youre in the minority. You can act high and mighty for having sigils, but, quite frankly, you just wont have many teams to play for your stubborness. Congratulations on thinking that one out, you seem to make yourself look like a jerk with every post in this thread. I hope I do as well, because damn somebody needs to show you what it's like.

PvP guilds don't charge high for sigils because they want to keep PvE guilds out of the ladder. We could care less. We charge a lot because people are willing to pay it and we need that much money to buy runes to continue to be competitive in PvP.

Is farming fun? No! But if you want to buy a sigil then why shouldn't you have to farm and make money for one? Afterall, PvP players spend a huge amount of their time farmining, grinding through missions and capturing elites and they aren't doing it because they find it enjoyable. They do it because that's how the game is set up and if we want to PvP competitively we have to.

I honestly don't care if everyone in the game gets a free sigil when they make a character. But if you're going to do that then allow PvP characters to unlock all skills and runes so we don't have to waste time doing things we don't like. I'm sure you can relate to that since you're complaining about having to farm for money to buy a sigil.

Your solution 2 has one major problem - and that is the same problem that makes csigils so expensive: only one team can hold the hall at a given moment. While any number of people can run through the underworld, you're bottlenecking your pvp rewards to essentially nothing. That makes fighting in the hall to become competitive suboptimal, while once you're ready to go the rewards are pretty meaningless.

There has to be a better pvp reward system than simply winning the HoH.

Laz

The pvpers aren't at fault, it's simple econmics as has been shown many times in the thread. The amount of guilds out there is just so large, and once your average joe hears that he can own a hall, he's going to want one. The pvpers cannot charge 100k per sigil if nobody will buy it at that price, but people will, so they do. Look at the first few days of release and the betas, my former guild leader bought a sigil at 3k less than 3-4 days into release because demand for them was so low. You can't fault them for that, especially when they have received the worse end of the deal by far. I've gotten the 100k one would need for a sigil in maybe 12 hours total. Despite well over quadruple of that time devoted to unlocking skills weapon mods and runes I'm barely a 1/5th of what I want unlocked, and I definitely don't want everything, just enough to give me variety and choice in builds.