For PvPers: Why are you against 'unlock through PvP', why UAS?

It is quite obvious that a large part of the playerbase is dead set against an UAS button / UAS ladder, and if so many detest the idea, maybe they have a point.

A possibility to unlock skills 'over time' through pure PvP play (with fame points or whatever) has been suggested numerous times, and I have yet to see anyone speak against the idea.

But for some reason, the UAS defenders chose to mostly ignore this option. Why? You would be able to gradually unlock what you want without needing to 'grind' in PvE, and everyone would be happy. You would be able to get what you want by doing what you enjoy without forcing others to do something they detest.

To be honest I think a lot of the people who are against the whole UAS button haven't even beaten the game yet, there for they don't quite understand where we're coming from, not to mention PvE people have no motive to unlock any skills because it really isn't required to beat the game. The idea of rewarding people for doing what they like to do is a great idea, PvE people get rewarded with PvE benefits, PvP people get rewarded with PvP benefits, It's really a win win situation yet I highly doubt it will ever be implemented.

The same way I have no problem with PvErs having to earn their sigils through PvP or farming, I likewise have no problem with PvPers having to earn their skills through some form of grind. The current system is not monumentally difficult for capturing skills. I'm against UAS even though I am primarily a PvPer. Let us earn our stripes, I say.

This is pretty par for the course in terms of MMOs... I mean, compare the amount of time you have to put in to be competitive in GW to the amount of the time you have to put in to be competitive in WoW... see if you don't blow a gasket in awe-inspired stupor.

I think an option people are leaving out is someone who plays both PvE and PvP. Some people want to work their way through PvP, and be rewarded for all the time they put into the character when they step into the arena, not to win, but to have fun taking the character they worked on and seeing him or her in PvP battles. I know I like taking my PvE character into PvP much better than just creating a PvP character with the same stuff, it's like "Yeah, I did the PvE, now I can compete in the PvP too using what I learned in PvE", sort of thing.

Look at it this way, when you beat any other game, is it more satisfying to beat HALF the game, or beat ALL of the game. Getting everything in the entire game is much more rewarding than just "beating" the game. And this is why some people who play both would feel cheated when they go through PvE, and then want to take it into the arena, and face people with everything...you get the idea.

One thing I don't understand though is people who complain about skill points/capturing elite skills. I have NEVER not been able to get a skill I wanted, unless the boss was at a place in the game I'd not gotten to. In which case, within a few hours, I just progressed through the story until I got there. In one day you can get everything you'll need for PvP, as a whole, even if it were 2 days, hell, who CARES about 2 days? It'll take you that long to get GOOD anyways.

I think though, that unlocking things progressively over time in PvP is a BRILLIANT idea. And it works for everyone. PvE characters who want to do some PvP can still use their PvE characters, knowing that the PvP guys had to work for it to, PvP characters won't have to do PvE, and PvE characters will get the usual.

And for PvP players who say "getting things over time in PvP still isn't skill over time played you dum dev liar heads!" If you unlock them over time in PvP it IS skill that will get you what you want, because you'll have to be SKILLED, to get them. Sounds like a good thing to me.

Edited by Inde. Trollbait.

Wow. A more shining example of equitable character I have not seen yet. Blaming an entire segment of the population for your gaming woes is original and necessary in times like these.

Why do people keep creating these threads? And why do people INSIST on implimenting or suggesting game breaking fixes that will suit one side and totally anex the other?

This is absolutly crazy, stop characters created in PvE participating in PvP? Give all PvP builds access to all items runes and skills?

Trully excellent suggestions that will only improve and enhance an already great game.. not.

Iv been thinking about this subject a bit, and id like to share my view on it.

In almost all games the best players, be that through equipment, achievments, or the respect of their fellow gamers, tend to be the most dedicated and hardcore players.
These players play the whole game, they do what must be done, they discover and achieve things others dont, and generally whether they agree with aspects of the game or not they accept them and utilise them and play through those aspects.

Under no conditions should that ever change in gaming.

There is however a crowd, possibly a large crowd, who feel deeply that having to play this way to be on a par with the average is unacceptable. They feel they shouldnt have to devote hours and hours of play to anything other than PvP. They have many arguements, many examples of what they consider grind etc. and have many possible answers to this problem.

Here is my answer.

There is a post asking why cant their be a PvE ladder and an UAS ladder, or why cant the game be split into PvE and PvP. I say this might just work, under a few conditions.

The PvP only characters get access to all their skills. They do not EVER get access to elite skills or runes. These should only be avaible via PvE, thus meaning that hardest hardcore of the game will remain the full game, PvE to PvP character, while still giving PvP only characters access to almost everything, except the very best.

This means that the players who play the entire game with the most hardcore attitude can achieve the most hardcore characters, builds, and achievements. This ill mean people who play ALL OF GUILD WARS will be the only ones who can possibly squeeze every last ounce of power and ability out of their characters. Thus meaning that those players who wish to be the best at the game in all respects shall have to deal with entire game, and tbh I dont think anyone who has aims of being the absolute champion of Guild Wars will have considered doing any less...

Those people who do not wish to 'grind' 'farm' or 'work' to get near maximum enjoyment do not have to, they can create characters as good if not better than most right from the beginning, but the absolute hardcore achievements of victory, and highest level of skills and character power shall not be handed free to them, indeed shall not be accesible, excpet via the entire game.

This will no doubt anger a lot of those who stand on the PvE=Grind side of the fence, but I do not care, put your ego and impatience aside for one minute and you will realise that my answer is probably the best one so far.

Great idea mate, I personally agree with it, even though I am a PvE player.

One thing though, I don't know if that will satisfy all the PvP only people because then it STILL isn't equal because they can't get their precious elite skills or runes, oh no! What a terrible thing to not have! Like having 2 extra points in an attribute will matter when you have -50 health!

Yeah I know that was rude and uncalled for really.

Anyways, I like that suggestion, pretty well thought out. I'm just curious as to how others will feel.

I dont believe this is true at all... and callling people PvE players is incorrect in most cases. Many of us came from other games for the combination of PvE and PvP. A lot of us came to Guildwars from other MMORPGs because of the competition and ladder. We play PvE to unlock skills and weapons for PvP! Other MMORPGs focoused on the RPG without offering real competition for the fruits of our labor. The attraction to Guildwars is that playing the RPG to build and develop chars to compete in a true cooperative environment with the chars we have developed. So dont claim the PvE players dont have interest in PvP, that is FAR from the truth.

I was supprised to find out that PvP chars competed in the same areas as the rest of the players, that seemed unfiar to the PvE&Pers until I realized that the PvP only players would not have have access to all the same skills , runes, etc. that the PvE&P (better name for the majority of players) players could have.

If Arenanet, in order to satisfy the requests from the PvP only crowd, added more skills to the PvP char it would greatly take away from benefits of develoding PvE&P char. Changes to the existing system would ruin the reason we develop chars in the first place. So... in my opinion, seperate ladders is the only fair option. I support seperate ladders and I ask other PvP&Eers to do the same.

Arenanet will have to do something to make the PvPers happy, do we want their answers to negetively affect the PvE&Pers? No we dont. The recent announcement of Arenanet adding more bosses to make it easier to get the Elite skills seems an effort to do just that, if it continues we will see the benefit of PvP&E chars greatly diminish, and that scares me. So I urge everyone to voice thir support the of seperate ladder creation. This is the only way to satisfy the PvP only players while keeping the true spirit intact for the PvP&Eers.

However, the current ladder (PvE&P) needs to continue to allow the use of PvP chars. Players have to be able to create different class chars for battles. Many of us go through a lot of PvE grind to unlock skills for additional classes allowing us to be deverse in the team make-up durring PvP or GvG.

But why stop with 2 ladders offering only 8v8 on each, do it right, take the opportunity to enhance the game at the same time. Create a range of competition. Have the main split of PvP/PvE&P ladders, but under each ladder add more than just 8v8... add 4V4, 2V2, objective, TDM, round based, etc..

And BTW... where are the flags flying throughout the towns with the current first place guild emblems that we heard about? Remeber Arenanet's claim that the winning Guilds would be hansomely rewarded?

Please support the creation of sperate PvP and PvE&P ladders!!!

-Nim

I usually do about an equal share of pvping and pveing myself, and I like the unlock through pvp better than a UAS.

A lot of the argument so far has been coming from the hate pvp crowd, and the hate pve crowd, but what about us who do both? I don't feel that I should be barred from the pvp ladder because I brought a character through the pve elements, yet I don't think we should be handed every skill possible right away. Honestly, playing through the pve and getting the skills when I do teaches me how to use them best so I'm better prepared for pvp. I have combo's that I can use and tricks up my sleeve, rather than having every skill and going "Oh, this one does some damage."

I remember the UAS option from the BWE's, and it led to a lot of people using uber skills with NO idea how to use them. Instead of learning how to be good with what they had and working their way up, a lot of people just took whatever they thought were flashy, and the quality of pvp was very low. People never learned their skills and how to increase the effectiveness, and very often, didn't change their play style and skills around at all when they lost because "I have the best skills, it's everyone else who sucked."

So, here's a detailed description of the unlock through pvp idea I've put out a few times.

The idea is that for every 5 wins in a random 4 on 4 arena, not conesecutive wins, mind you, just wins, gets you access to a new skill that you could learn from an arena trainer that has the skills up to and including the skills you would learn from a trainer or from quests in the surrounding areas, thereby granting you access to all skills at the final arenas.

You would unlock these skills through pvp skill. If your good, you'll unlock them faster. If you suck, it'll take a little longer to get five wins and you'll have time to re-examine your skills and your style.

Elites can be captured from other players in the arena, and wouldn't be based on your proffession. You capture the skill, you get it, since loosing one skill for pvp for a SOC is risky, that would be the payoff.

For runes and weapon upgrades, you would get them from "drops" from other players. The other player of course wouldn't actually drop his equipment, but you would gain access to it to unlock it for yourself. It would work the same as grouping in PvE, someone dies, and they drop whatever upgrade or rune they have to a random party member.

You could unlock all the skills, runes and upgrades through your skill in pvp, or through pve, or even mix and match. Get some from both. It's once again skill dependant, and forcing you to learn how to use what you have. This is my suggestion for the people who ride the middle ground and do both, which I personally beleive is an unspoken majority.

However, if the community is forced to be split as some people reccomend, then I support Eventhorizons idea. His idea would give the pvpers and equal playing field, and the pve'ers a little something extra for playing through the whole thing.

*edit*
Oh, and StandardAI, I have beaten the game, and I'm about to bring a second character through Assenction, so I do know your side.

Any chance we could stay on topic? There are loads of PvE vs PvP threads already. This one was created for the purpose of letting those who insist on UAS ladders explain the rest of us why they SO STRONGLY OPPOSE OTHER SOLUTIONS. Why an UAS ladder, why seperate PvP from PvE and thus kill part of the game and make it pointless? Why not work for skills and runes through PvP play? Are you really just lazy?

I also dont believe seperating PvE from PvP would do anyone any good. The whole point of the PvE in Guild Wars is PvP. Even WoW, which is pretty fast-paced, offers over 300 hours of PvE fun - with better loot, harder monsters and raid content for the end game. GW lacks this. There are no rewards for pure PvE.

GW, at this point, is not geared towards offering a pure PvE experience.

If you take the PvP away from PvE, you could as well play Baldur's Gate 2 instead... except that Baldur's Gate 2 has a higher replay value and more content for PvE players.

Haha, yeah, the best members of the elite PvP guilds are certainly dedicated and hardcore, and they're certainly respected by other PvP'ers, no doubt about that.

This changes nothing. You still force PvP players to play PvE and hating every second of it to be competitive in PvP. You'll still have bored/annoyed PvP players doing the stuff people complain about: dropping out the second they get the leet skill or item, harassing noobs (who are too slow or don't know what to do as they've not done the mission 15 times before), twinking & powerlevelling new members...
The reason those things happen is because there is a segment of the playerbase who don't want to do PvE.

Why force them to farm skills & runes when they don't want to?
How would it ruin the game to only have those who want to do PvE, do PvE?
Truly, I don't see the problem.

Haha, good one...
Anyway, I'm on the PvE side, and I don't understand why you feel it necessary to force those who don't want to do PvE to do PvE.

I still think PvE should be voluntary, and I still think the only way to achieve this is to completely separate the PvE from PvP.

That's the only way to give the PvP'ers a level playing field, and let the PvE'ers get on with exploring without interference from people who hate it and don't want to be there.

And yet it does.

I've to date got over 100 hours of PvE out of Guildwars. That means that it's given me the same total playingtime as Knights of the Old Republic and Knights of the Old Republic II combined, and better than twice the value-for-money.
Content-wise the PvE campaign of GW is OK; not anywhere near e.g. Planescape: Torment or GothicII, but better than, say Baldurs Gate I or NeverWinter Nights OC.

So I'm happy.

But I'm very unlikely to ever get in to PvP.

No no bad, no bad, no no! Do you know how quickly people would take advantage of this? Get a guild that has 30 or 40 members to flood the arena in the wee hours of one morning, "fight" each other consiting of one team taking off there armor and dancing. Get one person with a new skill and have him tell the four on the other team "Get ready to capture it". Until within maybe 1-2 hours everyone there has all skills, all runes, and all weapons unlocked!

That is a terrible idea IMHO, most PvE are PvP as well, and that sollution ruins the reason most play. Only a pure PvE player would support such an idea and guildwars was never intended to be a pure PvE game, there is not enough content.

Why? Oh Why? Am I doing this? I guess this proves I am totally nuts, but here goes nothing.

AI, one would assume that the good folks at A.Net have beaten the game by now, can we agree this far at least?

And, as it turns out, A.Net is deadset against the UAS also as it is counter to their vision for the game.

I am utterly confused as to why certain individuals have such a difficult time grasping such a simple concept.

Okay, I'm done. Flame away! LOL!

Hmmmm, consider this noobish but since I haven't created a PvP build yet....maybe it's just more an inexperienced thought but.....

Wasn't the whole intent of giving the choice of PvE vs PvP builds, to keep them separate? I didn't know that a PvP build could cross over, which is what allot of these rants are making it seem. If that is the case, then there is the flaw and solution. The character selection screen that gives you an option of PvE or PvP, should be the determining factor of where THAT characters has access to. Furthermore, the PvP arenas those PvE players see in towns/outposts should be PvP against other PvE players who chose to enter the arena. While the originally built PvP character has their own areas for action.........this is how I thought it was to have been from the start.

How so?
All it means is that you cant bring your PvE avatar to PvP. You'll need separate avatars, that's all. How many dedicated PvP'ers play with a build made for PvE anyway?

You're right that guild wars was intended to fuse PvE and PvP, but it isn't working. At least not well. It is apparently "troll bait" to say that I don't want PvP farmers for teammates in PvE missions, because they hate PvE'ing and cause no end of grief, but it's the truth.

I also know I, like most who are not in elite guilds, will never have the cash & help to get all the skills and equipment I need to be competitive in PvP, even if I wanted to.

Now we have a situation where PvP players are unhappy about having to grind PvE to get a level playingfield, and PvE players suffer because, let's face it, an annoyed PvP player who doesn't give a sh!t about the mission or his PUG and has done the mission 15 times before, isn't the best teammate you can have on a mission.

Solution: separate the games.

What would happen?

Downside: There would be slightly fewer players in the PvE areas.
Upside: Those who were there would want to be there, they'd be there to play the game, not farm.

Downside: There would be slightly fewer players in the PvP areas.
Upside: But those who were there would all have the same opportunity. Matches would be decided by skill, not who had farmed the most or had most help from their guild.

PvE'ers can PvE, PvP'ers can PvP, and if a PvE'er wants to PvP he can create an avatar which has the same chance as anyone else.

As for PvE content... don't worry about it, there's plenty.

So where's the problem? I still don't see it.

Numa,
Considering that A.Net has stated that GW will remain an integrated game this question is academic really, but, in the 2 game scenario you discuss, why would a PvE player who wishes to PvP create a PvP character? Why not PvP with the PvE character she has leveled?

I think you missunderstand me... I fully support seperation of PvP and PvE&P. But not PvE and PvP. I want to use my PvE char to compete against other PvE chars, thats why I play PvE, to make a good PvE char for PvP. But to seperate PvE from PvP, where only PvP chars compete and PvE is left only to PvE is against what the PvE&P players play the game for.

Because,our PvE chars unlock runes and skills to use in competition for mre than just our 1 Primary/Secondary char. I play and Ele/Mes but since I have unlocked many Mesmer skills and Runes I also play a PvP Mes/Ele durring battles. Also I have unlocked enough Runes to play almost any class that I can create in PvP. I dont want to be limited in my teams strats to only the primary PvE char we play. I also may create a PvE Warrior/Mo to give me access to skills for a possible 16 different primary-secondary builds.

-Nim

Because her PvE character would not stand a chance in PvP unless she grinds a lot post-ascension to get all the skills and runes and weapons she'd not got on her way through the campaign.

If, on the other hand, PvP was separate from PvE, she could create a character which had access to all skills, weapons, and armor, and any difficulties she'd encounter in PvP would be due to her personal skill, and her teams.

I agree that the question is academic, it is clearly against the intention of A.net, but I think it'd give both PvP'ers and PvE'ers a better, friendlier, game.

Yeah, people would exploit it. Good for them. Explouits happen. But a guild of 30 or 40 would take way longer than 1 - 2 hours to get everything. Also, the game wants to cut back on taking weeks to get a skill, this is a good way, and I see it as a better idea than the current one, where PvE and grinding in it is the only way to get something, and a UAS, which Anet is dead-set against. If you have a better idea than the standard "Open a UAS" or "Just grind and get stuff" then I'm all ears.

My box was advertised as skill over time played, not sure what yours says when you open the covor though. I have no problem with having to beat the entire game to get every skill I want, If that were the case no one would be complaining. But beating the game a second, third, and fourth time to compete in the meta game however is a different story.

The PVP Builds intent was only for those that wish to hop in and play an instanced character that is rolled at ..basically random to play pvp right off the get go. A 'Pick-up-and-go' character. It is not meant to be carried over into anything and they won;t ever give this character everything right off the bat (whine all you want, I'd bet just about anything it won't ever happen). The RPG Character however can do both, and it was intended this way.

I have no qualms with unlocking through PvP, although I still feel UAS would be better since it'd be a truly level playing field from the getgo.

I'm sorry if this hasn't been mentioned already....

but ISN'T there already a "unlock skills over time in PvP"??
in the form of leveling up and getting skills points... then its simply a matter of trotting over to the Skill merchant that you need to talk to and buying the skill....

although i guess money might become an issue

there seems to be a bit of difficulty in getting enough skill points for what they want

and the elite skills have to be gotten with a signet of capture from a boss

otherwise all are available from quests or trainers

There's also the issue of runes and weapon mods. The drops for these in the hall of heroes is very low and nowhere near alleviates the grind in the game.

As alot of people have pointed out, gaining skills, items, runes in pvp would be easily exploitable. Therefore this is not a plausible idea. Many people may complain about the PvE grind, but it really isn't much of a grind. I am an avid PvPer but i play PvE to unlock the skills and runes for my PvP character. I agree that it is hard to unlock skills after using all your skill points and i see why people would consider this a grind. I found that when I changed my secondary class I could not do any quests to gain my skills because i had already completed most of the side quests.

I propose a different solution from seperating PvP from PvE. To reset certain quests when you change your secondary class and allow you to gain the skills you need by completing these quests once again. I agree with many of you that there is a small grind in the game and it may affect the people who only want to PvP. But if Anet were to allow players to gain skills from more quests as well as using skill points, it would signifigantly reduce the grind and there would be no reason to create a UAS button or an "unlock through PvP".

so that's what UAS stood for...

sadly, that's not even true. very few of the devs actually play this game. very few game developers in general play their own game as intended. how do i know this? well, 1. we have game developers from prominent gaming houses in my guild, and 2. we share a vent server with some of anet's developers.

and what's even more interesting, some of the developers are for reducing grind and UAS. anywayz, just FYI =)

If I'm understanding part of the problem right now outside of the UAS issue is that there is not much really going on in teh way of GvG, making the ladder more of a joke than the competition it was intended to be.

SImple enough.. if they put whatever PvP skill/item gain in PvP.. Put it soley in GvG and make the quality of whatever you get based on how quality of the competition..

What I mean is that you get better rewards for winning against higher ranked guilds than you would against lower ranked guilds.. It would keep top guilds from making scrub guilds to better themselves and would eventually in effect level things out among the varying guilds competing..

Not only that but it would put some life back into the guild ranking ladder, it would get people out of the mindset that HoH is the ONLY place worth PvP action.

Just an idea..

"I cannot win unless I have at my disposal all possible runes and elites from which to choose." is the single greatest fallacy in existance upon these forums.

By way of example, my PvP Mesmer/Elementalist last night won on four different teams (losing twice over the six runs total) with nothing more than what my PvE Mesmer/Monk has discovered AT LEVEL 12.

Skill isn't about having everything to choose from... skill is about finding ways to win even if you do not. Something most PvP players today never grasp.

Good PvP isn't about winning all the time, or about losing only if someone else has 'better skills'. Good PvP is about winning when it isn't expected and learning from your losses so you can use that experience to win next time.

Frankly, whenever I hear 'I can't win unless I have access to all the elites and skills' all I really hear is, 'I'm a n00b. Gimme what I want or I'll whine until your head explodes.'

That's funny.. truly.. I got a chuckle out of it. Reminds me of my 15 year old. ( not your statement.. but the whining part..Doesn't get him what he wants either)

/end reference..lol

Being primarily a PvE player who occasionally enjoys a bit of PvP I don't find the current system a hassle.

However I can see that it does force people to play aspects of the game they seem to hate. That's why I.. and several others have come up with several ideas to give them options for gaining things in PvP that won't really mess things up as far as PvE goes and won't require either a UAS or a seperate ladder. I won't rehash all the ideas I've posted.. they are in pretty much all of the endless grind threads.

Unfortunately, while there are a few openminded and reasonable heads taking part in this umm.. discussion.. there remain a majority that insist that their way is the only way and if it doesn't go their way it's the highway for them and immediate doom for GW due to their absence. (Not trying to speak for all of you folks, but the attitudes speak volumes..on both sides come to think of it)

By now it should be an accepted fact that the devs have no intention of reinstituting the UAS used for testing during the BWE's. Gaile said as much.

Regardless of what anyone wants to think in either of the diehard camps, this game was not made just for you. It was made as a middle of the road game that would try and capture the best elements of both styles of play. Alex Weekes made the statment that the game is not PvP or PvE.. it is meant to be BOTH

Yes, the core combat system is designed for balanced PvP action.. better than any other I've ever played. But it is also made to grab and keep the attention of PvE players as well. The PvE content isn't a tutorial for PvP, PvP is not the endgame of PvE. THey are not meant to be diametrically opposed to one another in GW, but a way to integrate the two and not get burned out on either. I play PvE.. I get bored with it so I go PvP awhile.. I PvP until I get bored, so I go PvE awhile.. Simple as that.

If all PvE was meant to be was a filler or tutorial, why would they spend the countless hours they obviously have to make the PvE environment so detailed? I'm not talking about the pretty graphics alone.. but things like fish swimming in an obscure creek in a far off corner of an EA.. and not just a couple of fish but 2-3 obviously different species.. If PvP was their only real goal, all that effort would have been better spent elsewhere.

Likewise it is not a strictly PvE game, given that at least to this point there is not enough content to fully explore all of the skill and combinations available to the ever changing fluid nature of high level PvP

The PvE is not complete in any sense.. This game was from the beginning based on the idea that there were going to be expansions. It was never a case of "Well here is a game. Let's see how it sells and then maybe make an expansion for it for a little extra cash."

This game is even now ever growing.. Point in case, they are adding new areas and content already.

If either side thinks for one moment this game is all about them and only about them.. sorry to burst your bubble. Its all about ALL of us.

So everyone please drop the grandstanding. Ifyou want to see improvements in the game, stop the flaming and the whining, and come up with CONSTRUCTIVE ideas that have an actual chance of working within the scope of the devs vision for this game.

That means PvP need to stop with the "I HAVE to have everything at once or I'm not ever gonna be happy.. and oh by the way I know everything better than you scub PvE people ever will" routine .. and PvE people stop with the "You PvPers are all just f'ing lazy, elitist brats!" routine..

Let's put our collective and hopefully intelligent heads together and come up with some good, if compromising options that will work for the majority of players and not just your faction.

It gets tiresome when all we keep seeing is how much stuff sucks and don't get near enough new ideas and actually ahve the ideas that many of us have submitted discussed. Everyone is too entirely worked up and polarized into their narrow tunnel of thought to even open up and consider the other side.


So everyone take a step back.. take a deep breath.. and look at the BIG picture for a bit and see what you can think of that will work for both sides AND fit within the existing scope of the game without shredding it in two.
*Steps off soapbox and waits*

/clap on

# Edit #

I just want to say that I feel that do what you must to better the pvp experience, but the Elite skills are just that, Elite, and should remain that way. If an elite skill is making or breaking a battle, then it should be a gloriously even matched battle to partake in, and with spectator mode comming should be a joy to watch.

To start the "out of the box" thinking.

How about unique pvp mode where everyone starts with 0$ and starter skills to pick from. Winner of the round gets cash, and team cash per kill. Begin each round buying skills with money. Makes the first round like "knife round" from CS, and totaly level playing field for everybody.

I could see a pvp only quest line that perhaps went something like:
- Score 2 Kill shots
- Kill a monk/x
- Get 3 consecutive wins
- Win with 0 party member deaths

Something that would signify the same level of player skill that getting an Elite skill in pve instills.

Just a couple "out there" idea's to get the creative minds working.

/clap
That's the balance my friend.
Quite honestly, you don't need to have all of your skills to be at the top of your PvP game. My friends and I all threw together some PvP chars and di some team PvP and got 9 consecutive wins off of half our party not having any extra skills unlocked for their char.

Big picture, huh. Ok, heres a big picture for you - what does the UAS system do? Eliminates grind. What is the base mechanic for an 'unlock' system? Grind (or repetition or whatever you want to call it, functionally its the same).

What is the reason for not giving people full power at the start of an rpg game? So you can start the challenges off easy and make things progressively harder at the same time as making the characters stronger. Difficulty ramps with power. What is the purpose of not giving some people (who are not necessarily better) full power in a competitive pvp framework?

Note the competitive part. I can't answer that question. I don't think a satisfactory answer exists that will make sense from a competitive pvp mindset.

Logically, then, a pvp unlock system is a more palatable version of the pve unlock system but has at its roots the idea that you'll be fighting unevenly until you spend enough time in-game.

Are there levels of grind a person is willing to undergo to unlock part of the game they like? sure. That doesn't change the fact that they would prefer it if they didn't have to grind at all. Are there decreases in grind a pve player would be willing to see happen? Sure, but it doesn't change the fact that they would rather make it so that their full skillset is a rarity that requires immense time investment (i.e. earning).

If you lowered grind requirements to say, beating the game the first time through...that takes maybe 40 hours on average and then unlocked everything to pvp characters, would pve find this acceptable? Its a massive change from the 500+ hour grind you see now to accomplish a similar feat but it is a compromise.

My guess? you'll see the same screaming and bitching for and against you can witness now.

Make no mistake, all these 'compromises' do is change the time required to reach full unlock anyway. Unless you can come up with compelling logical reasons why competitive pvp is better in an unequal situation, the only point of compromising is to assuage the feelings of some people who like what is in essense ganking.

Thank you for completely misconstruing the PvP mentality for the third time in the exact same fashion, Virago. I might as well start keeping count and keeping track of how many times you repeat the same fallacious misrepresentation.

PvPers are not arguing that they should have everything in the game because "they cannot win without all the skills" according to you. They want them for a level playing field. Everyone in an ideal world would have everything unlocked for a completely fair PvP experience. A game where one side has a significant advantage over another from the onset of the match starting due to the rules of the game itself is not a balanced game and is detrimental to competitive play. Even if one can win with a gimped PvP template against lesser skilled opponents with unfair advantages, it does not make the game a level playing field. Please understand what I have said before commenting.

Lazarous, it'd more than 500 hours to unlock everything. Unlocking everything would take at the very least a thousand hours with the current drop tables.

The 'level playing field' is a myth. Please understand what I have said before commenting. Thank you.

1) You have no evidence beyond the purely anecdotal to support this assertion.

2) You seem not to understand that, in the context of game design and longevity, time sinks are good, not bad... and they are something that anyone who has played them for any period of time knows as expected.

But let's suppose you're right and it takes exactly 500 hours to unlock everything, or 1000 hours at the current drop rates -- this means you have to commit at least 1000 hours to the game to reap the full set of all possible rewards.

Yup, that's pretty well in alignment with MMO standards.

3) How do you fail to see that demanding shorter returns for time invested IS the 'NOW NOW NOW' mentality of which I am speaking?

It might be different if the people wanting it 'NOW NOW NOW' were willing to give something back to the playing community at large, but consistantly, the attitude is 'Give us this so we can go off in the corner over here and not have to bother with any of you further.'

Yeah, that's really going to win over ArenaNet... or anyone here.... or anyone interested in seeing the community in the game flourish. (wry grin)

This is a fundamentally very ignorant statement.