For PvPers: Why are you against 'unlock through PvP', why UAS?

No, it happens to be a true one. The ignorance lies in those unwilling or unable to accept it.

I can guarantee almost every competitive gamer would consider your statement extraordinarily absurd in the context of this discussion.

Somehow, the notion that the 'NOW NOW NOW' brigade doesn't agree fails to disquiet me.

On the other hand, I can guarantee you that almost every competitive gamer, contrary to what you seem to assert here, is enjoying themselves actually playing and winning the game, not whining on the forums about how they have to work for it.

Let me illuminate with an example, Virago. Let us say there is a FPS Lan tournament. In this FPS, there is a 1% random chance at the start of a match that a player will do double damage with all his weapons throughout the match. If during the finals both players fail the roll for the double chance, it will be a level playing field. If during the finals one player wins the roll and the other doesn't, it will not be a level playing field. Note that there is an arbitrary and completely unskilled advantage obtained in this example.

Since I've kept track, this is the 4th time you've misconstrued and fallaciously stereotyped PvPers.

I would disagree. Many pvp guilds have complained if you haven't been aware.

Is there even a single RPG which GW definitey is, regardless of if it is MMO or CO, that has this mysterious "Level Playing Field"?

I know what youmean Air.. Truly I do. But given the genre the game is in.. RPG and not FPS.. I sicerely doubt you will ever have a level playing field right out of the box.

They can adjust things to make it easier to acheive the LPF as an end goal. but it will likely never happen as a starting point.

If you are asking about games that have unbalanced pvp, but its still available? tons. Neverwinter nights, nox, uncountable muds, etc.

The concept is not really novel, even though it might seem like it to some people.

This is a straw man argument that ignores the points brought up as to why competitive pvp doesn't benefit from grind as its starting point.

What I meant was what I said.. How many RPG gaames have a Level Playing Field from the get go? I realize that this one doesn't by your terms, but tell me which if any of the others do.

...read my post again?

This is not an FPS. It is an MMO. The core premise of the MMO is time investment is a required ingredient.

It is neither a misconstruction nor a fallacy. A good 98% of all such posts on the topic have completely ignored anything that even remotely hints at compromise in favor of insisting their way is the 'only way' and predicting all manner of gloom and doom if ArenaNet doesn't cave in to their demands. This is precisely what a 'NOW NOW NOW' mentality is, and considering I'm a PvP player (though admittedly much less so these days), my opinion on matters is just as valid as yours, even if you do dislike it.

I hate to break the bad news to you, but there isn't a single PvP guild that I recognize playing this game:

- Shadowclan is in WoW and still clinging to Shadowbane, and DAoC,

- SiNister is in WoW,

- Mithril Alliance is in WoW, DAoC, and Shadowbane,

- Disciples of The Dark Hand is pretty much in every PvP game on the MMO scene except this one, and for the most part, any of the PvP guilds with history have either not noticed this game or have preferred another to it.

In all honesty, I'm a bit surprised ArenaNet hasn't offered any of them trial access. Then again, I'd hate to see what passes for PvP here get the 'show up'. (grin)

Kindly note, every one of the guilds I mention above I have either had personal experience playing with or against, and every one of them are what I'd call a true PvP Guild -- a group of people who hone their skills across numerous games and pursue PvP simply for the enjoyment OF PvP.

They don't whine about what they have to do to win. They just do it. And they do it damned well.

A lot of would be PvP glory hounds on these forums would do well to take a few pages from their book, hence the links.

Suffice to say, I've enough experience with PvP guilds of all types to know that those trying to present themselves as 'speakers of the milieu' here are anything but such.

Sometimes you really wonder why people keep on insisting that GW should be kept at the level of the other mmonrpgs out there when it was specifically designed to be otherwise. And that those same people are trying to tell the alpha and beta players that they're wrong about the game.

"Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain" (schiller) pretty much sums up why this issue is still flaring in debate.

^ good book too

Little thing called 'competition', Zeru. Trivial to most who play games, but surprisingly important to those who make them. Go figure.

You talk as if ùnlevel playingfields is a good thing. The fact that other MMORGPs have unlevel playing fields because of ph4t 100t and infinite levels isn't an argument in favor of having unlevel playing fields in GW, it's an argument against those other MMORPGs.

All other MMORPGs also charge per month. That means that the whole business concept of the game is to keep people grinding, and perpetually holding a carrot in front of them in the form of loot and levels is the way people are kept on the treadmill.

GW wasn't supposed to be that way. It was supposed to be a level playing field, where a noob could come in, create a PvP character, and compete on equal terms with the people who've been here since beta. As of now it isn't, unless the noob joins an elite guild who helps him run at least one PvE characters through the campaign and outfits him.

As a competitive FPS gamer I can completely see why the PvP'ers don't like this situation.

My own perspective is however slightly different. In GW I am a pure PvE'er, and I am tired of finding myself in pick-up groups with annoyed and petulant PvP'ers out speedlevelling, farming some elite skill, or elite drop. They don't want to be there, I don't want them to be there - so why make them?

I mean, seriously, what's the point?

I think some people who bought the game assumed this was only a pvp game. When you bought the game it has 2 halves. RPG and PVP. They have to complement each other or you dont have a full game. Sorry but you also must play both, to get the most out of your game. End discussion. Nothing was ever labeled any differently from ArenaNet.

1) You can pick up a lvl 20 char and jump right into the pvp.
2) You can concentrate on RPG if you like.
3) The full game involves both, rpg and pvp, to get the most out of it.

Quit trying to stetch it into anything different than what it was labeled as. You must take part in both to get the most out of the full game.

Well, if it is to involve both rpg and pvp to get the most out of it, then what about a suggestion from, I think Laz made it. Beating the game once gives you access to the skills?

Perhaps beating it could unlock at least all the non elite skills for your primary and secondary?

Why would you need ALL the skills? I don't understand this at all. Some skills just aren't good for your intended build...so why bother wasting time getting them? I do the skill quests, buy what I need from merchants, beat the game and I'm done. It's no different now, than what you're suggesting.

They may be good for your intended build, but what about when you want to change your build around?

Say you have an interuption ranger, and have no skill points left, after spending them for your pve and pvp setups. What about when you want to try, say a pet ranger, but have no pet skills? Play forever to get the skills points to unlock the pet skills, or start from the beginning and play all the way through again to get those?

In a pvp game like this, stragety is important, and strageties to beat other teams are constantly changing, builds becoming obsolete. People should be able to change a little quicker than what it is, or else pvp will become very stagnant.

Then go back to the merchants and buy them...they aren't expensive.

As I said I do all the skill quests along the way..they are simple enough. At merchants I don't bother with skills I wont ever see myself using. Trust me...theres plenty of skills you can tell you wont be using. And if a rare occasion comes up where it may prove to be useful...just go and pick it up from the merchant.

You can't buy them form merchants if you don't have any skill points left, though.

There's one big constraint on PvP characters that isn't really talked about, and that's the desire to not obsolesce RP characters in PvP. Like it or not, a lot of people do want to bring their RP characters into Tombs and feel that they're competitive, not just being blown away by tricked out PvP characters with gear that can't realistically be acquired.

Hence the whole unlocking thing.


Personally I think the biggest problem is that PvE characters are not flexible enough. Sure you can switch secondaries, but you quickly run straight into the skill point wall. There simply are not enough skill points available to learn every skill from your first two classes, let alone any class you switch to. You can't just keep grinding out skill points, either, as the amount of experience required keeps increasing - I'm up at around 30k required per skill point and it just takes forever. This is just going to keep getting worse in expensions, of course. So realistically if you want to change secondaries you need to play *another* character with that secondary up to unlock skills with, then make a PvP guy with that profession combination.

But then you need to have runes unlocked as well, and with the neccessity of Superiors in high level play that simply is not realistic. You either have to spend days grinding out superior runes (and then you only get a random assortment), or you twink every PvP guy with runes that you buy in town, which gets expensive absurdly fast.

Don't get me started on +5 bowstrings and the like.

Now personally I think that a ton of this would simply be fixed by allowing people to trade in skills from one class for skills from another - let me junk some of my Mesmer skills to buy Monk skills when I switch my secondary from Mesmer to Monk, or whatever. Then I could realistically switch from El/Mes to El/Mo and play a useful character, instead of 'well, I can switch secondaries, then spend three hours grinding out skill points to buy the skills I need to make this build, or I can just make a PvP guy that'll give me the flexibility I need'.

Secondary class switching was something I was hesistant about at first, but it's a great idea - it just needs the next step, to allow people to realistically acquire skills for their new secondary instead of having to grind out a ton of skill points to be functional.


I love the flexibility that PvP characters give, but I wish it didn't feel so mandatory. Give RP characters much of the same sort of flexibility, and I think many of the complaints will go away.

Now, to solve the rune / upgrade availability and 'run to the middle of nowhere to capture a key skill' problems.

Peace,
-CxE

Perhaps you missed the "out of skill points" part of my question.

I know I hardly ever have skill points. I tried building two new pvp test characters, and have been out of sp since. Since I've already beaten the game, it takes me a while just to get 1 sp.

*edit*
Agreed. I've wanted to switch my R/E to an R/N for a while, but it's taking me at least 2 days to get an sp or 2, so my secondary would be worthless to me for too long.