For PvPers: Why are you against 'unlock through PvP', why UAS?

You guys love to just skip over everything don't you, We have NO PROBLEM WITH BEATING THE GAME TO GET SKILLS, But beating it a second, third, and fourth time should not be required to keep up with the meta game. The devs do not even play their own game, most of the pve people who are against the uas button do not partake in PvP, havn't beaten the game, have no reason to unlock skills, or don't understand anything behind PvP.

This is called 'empirical evidence. What you need to make a point is called 'objective evidence'.

Example of usage:

There are no 'Top Guilds' (objective) in PvP playing this game. There are, however, many 'Top Guilds' (empirical) in PvP playing this game.

The reason I posted this , was to demonstrate by way of example both the point and the concept.

The 'Top Guilds' (objective) have either ignored this game, do not know about this game, or chosen not to leave what they're doing presently to try it out.

The 'Top Guilds' (empirical) here should thank their stars this is the case.

'Top Guilds' (objective) don't whine about what it takes to win. They just do it. That's why they're 'Top Guilds' (objective) and not 'Top Guilds' (empirical).

Get it?

Thats just it my slightly dim friend, those who want almost every single thing in the game right away without having to go through the entire game to unlock it all can fire up a PvP only character fighting in PvP only ladders with almost everything that is accessible to the players of the full game.

A.net, im sure the majority of the playerbase has noticed although obviously you have not, has not created a PvP game with hints of Role Play on the side, or an RPG with hints of PvP at the side. A.net has created a game where whether you like it not you the 2 aspects are closely linked, interwoven, and support each other and rely upon each other to make the game happen. You fight and quest to increase/improve your skills and abilities.

Now if you simply slice the game in two you will destroy it. Enough people might still play one part of the game enough to keep it alive, but GW will be dead, and whatever is left wont last long at all.

What my suggestion did was give a point in playing through the 'full game' the PvE - PvP - PvE attitude, that point was the extra bonuses you can only get through PvE, elites and runes.
It would give the full version of the game a bit more competitive meat than PvP only, yes thats true, thats also what the developers aim for this damn game is. So what my suggestion was is too simply give PvP only characters almost everything, but limiting from them a few top end abilites or items that you can gain access to by playing the whole, full, PvE containing game.

Just because you dont particularly enjoy a certain aspect of this game doesnt mean that makers should make that whole aspect irrelevant to PvP, and hand you every thing you desire on a silver platter at the expense of competition, hence point, in the PvE aspect of this game.

If you dont want to PvE you dont have to, but then youll never quite be able to make quite as strong a character as me, although you might easilly be a more skilled player than me, and we will never fight each other so youll never see the slight imbalance, read bonus I get for PvE-ing.

That was my suggestion, sorry you dislike/insulted/rediculed it, but imodest as I am I personally think thats a better answer than splitting the game into PvE and PvP or giving every single thing to PvP only builds..

A difference of opinion it would seem, but I ask you not to be quite so rediculing of me next time you disagree with me. Its called manners.


I think its a method of spreading out the current available content, both in PvE items skills and gear, as well as PvP builds, over as long a period as possible.
If it cost people money then all skills could be unlocked via a trader a lot quicker by a lot more people than by EXP - skill point - skill. This means a.net has more time not only to plan the next big chapter, but that they have more time to spend on other thing.

Basiclly if the game was running out of new ideas, builds etc. after 2-3 months then a.net would be pushed to consider the newest chapter earlier to offset boredom, there would possibly be less bug fixing or content/patch checking, possibly worse performance due to dodgy coding not being fixed etc...

Well equipment is an issue to a degree. Getting a +15% weapon might be a real pain, but +13% max rares are fairly straightforward. Staves would be an issue if they weren't available from collectors.

The problem equipment is still the Superior Runes and a couple specific upgrades (+20% enchanting, +5 vampiric), but RP characters actually come out ahead there since they can trade for said items, at least in theory, while PvP characters need to have those unlocked.

I haven't thought of weapons and armor as being a problem, though, as those are generally available to everyone. The problem (surprise!) is the stuff that needs to be unlocked.


I don't mind having to jump around and buy the skills I need to run a particular PvP guy. What I do mind is having to run 3 (or more) characters through all of the PvE in order to have enough skill points to unlock what I need. I'm seriously considering making a throwaway character just to unlock crap with, but I have zero patience for that at this point. I've already run through most of the PvE twice now, covering four classes, and while I have a bit of a buffer to buy skills on those guys it isn't enough to make me comfortable switching secondaries and blowing 8 skill points to make a PvP build for the other classes - I mean, that's eight hours worth of skill point grind, plus diminishing returns that'll make it worse each time I do it.

Oh, and I'd have to run around the mountains with my gimp to the middle of nowhere and drop a bunch of items on the ground and spam capture signet in the hopes of getting a key skill.

I think I'll pass on that.

Peace,
-CxE

The Reason why im for UAS is simple. It is already in the game. The button is in plain View. Just hold your mouse over it and click it for 500-1000h - or just hire someone from a third world country to do it while you enjoy an single player RPG (or your Real life). Dont know anyone? People are selling this service on ebay and other sites already. So how many of those who keep flaming and insulting everything that is against grind are working for them? A flamebait maybe? NOW NOW NOW crowd= i want to cure cancer NOW NOW NOW. Bleh these instant gratification kidies who expect to be able to buy a game and get a grindfest right out of the box without earning it by complaining for 100dreds of hours make me sick. Did you EARN this box by 500 hours of field labour? Work for your right to grind.

You dont earn anything by enduring pain. besides being called stupid.

im for UAS (or unlock all in less then 30h, and without repeating content) because GW may then be the first popular MMO game without an special entry on weLevelj004ca$$.com

(Im a PVE/Grind player btw... its just that GW fails as a grind game without UBAR, RARE, COOL rewards... so let me have the parts that work flawlessly without working for it. 500-1000h @ 5E/per h=> 2.500-5.000 Euro. If i was one of those "EARN EARN EARN" people, id got a Mcjob. No matter how good the pvp part is, i surely can get more rewarding things with 2500 Euro+)

(Note: its against the TOS to buy / sell ingame content for real cash.)

That's funny. My PvP skills tend to go to the crapper the longer I stay in PvE. Sigh. People need to understand that PvE is too easy where mobs are too dumb to react. Situations in PvP is waaaaaaaaaay different than that found in PvE. A very basic example is AoE's very usefulness in PvE while in PvP it is a complete waste, well except for HoH of course because you are fightning that mob called, Ghostly Hero. To say that you need to go through PvE to learn how to PvP shows lack of understanding of the game and PvP mechanics.

I was referring to learning your skills, not learning how to PvP. Combos, the exact differences in effect between 5 and 10 attribute points for a particular skill, some non-obvious uses not pointed out in the skill description... you learn every skill. Very valuable knowledge. To figure out that static AoEs that can be easily walked out of are useless in PvP you only need common sense, though. Just like a lot of other facts.

And if your PvP skills 'go to the crapper' during the time you spend in PvE... uh... what about doing both the same day? It even helps concentration, as the human mind becomes less effective after hours and hours of doing the same thing.

As for paying to be effective in PvP - in other MMOs, you could spend 300 bucks on some uber item of d00m that actually makes a huge difference in PvP. Here the difference between average and awesome is minimal.

How many times do I have to repeat it? Is it really so hard to understand?

PVE IS FUN FOR US BECAUSE OF THE PVP REWARDS. WE DONT PVE TO KILL MONSTERS. THERE IS NO RAID CONTENT. NO PVE END GAME. THE PVE FUN IS UNLOCKING.

THERE ARE NO PVE REWARDS FOR PVE PLAY. IF ALL SKILLS ARE A BUTTON CLICK AWAY, PVE WILL BE AS EXCITING AS A PAIR OF OLD SOCKS.

Thus, you DO kill PvE play with an UAS button.

I and many others totally agree that PVPers should not need to do something they hate to unlock their skills. Which is why we support an 'unlock through PvP only content' system.

Who the F is WE?!

You sure don't speak for me, and I play PvE exclusively!
No, a UAS button kills it for people like you, who don't want to play PvE, and do it only as a grind to play PvP. It doesn't kill it for people like me, who actually like it and are totally uninterested in playing PvP, ever.

You've proven my point without realising it.

We, Saerden, totally believe that you are wrong. The changes you proposed will kill the PvP part of the game. A major part of the competitive aspect of PvP, according to our opinion, is self-improvement. If you no longer need to improve your mind and body to be able to withstand the parts of the game that are "as exiting as a pair of old socks", then you will get weak. And the weak shall perish, only the true, hard, ENDURING Players shall be in the top 10. Only the fittest shall Rule. Since PvP is close to what one can call "remotely fun", allowing people to improve their toolset through PvP will make self improvement REDUNDANT. This totally goes against the vision of Arenanet: your mental and physical skills (to withstand pain) should decide the outcome of a battle, not (leisure) time spent.

/pluralis majestatis off
/sarcasm off
ERROR, resetting default mode:
sarcasm: on

I speak for those who enjoy both PvE and PvP, which I estimate is about half the playerbase. Besides, if I hated PvE, why would I care about it being 'killed' by an UAS button? That doesnt make any sense whatsoever.

The pure PvE'ers are usually the ones who post they are quitting after a couple weeks because there is 'nothing left for them to do'. Seeing as they leave rather quickly, they are a minority. I wonder how long you will stay

The second part is funny, because I DO enjoy PvE, and I dont consider it a grind. I very much look forward to new missions in upcoming expansions. I dont farm, I take things slowly, and I have fun. Unlocking new skills is a thrill and excitement, but I dont 'rush' through the content to get one particular skill so I can return to PvP. Most of my guild plays and enjoys GW the same way.

Without realizing it, you have proven MY point, because people who run out of arguments tend to agressively pretend they 'know' the other person so they can pick their posts apart and 'prove' themselves right based on false assumptions. And in the process, they start to make absolutely no sense.

IF PVE =! PVE , Celes is right.

Celes, you obviously dont care about story, exploring new areas, fighting difficult AI controlled enemies, etc.

How about the following proposal:
By doing the otherwise boring PvE - Did you actually notice what the boring story was about?) you can unlock the following:

1. cooking recipes
2. Pictures of semi-naked, hot chicks
3. Rap music
4. New, cool vehicles in Halo 2

A compromise we can all live with?


PS i dont believe you actually ment both posts seriously.If you did, you just called GW a failed, broken game - and the designers incompetent.
So did everyone who spouts the "UAS kills PvE enjoyment" argument. If there is no point besides unlocking PvE-unrelated things (aka PvE is NOT FUN), why design it in the first place? If the PvE is pointless without the unlocking part, why botter with a story or great scenery, noone cares anyway.

Sorry if i said the same thing a couple posts above, i just did not consider the possibility that people actually could admit thinking the same and still stay with Guild Wars.

*steps forward bows head and admits to one and all I AM PVE ONLY*

having admitted it i have a character with 75+ hours of simply looking around enjoying the game and will still be playing when the next chapter comes out (or not if i get tired of it for awhile)

i see no point in burning through the game as fast as i can.

when i find something and get a rune or upgrade i am happy to find it but it is a bonus bit of fun not a reward for farming

sort of the difference between 2 people at the beach with metal detectors with one going as fast as they can and the only thing that counts is the amount of loot in his bucket

and the other who is enjoying the surf the girls the breeze the sun everything and suddenly jumps when his detector buzzes because he was paying no attention to that part of what he was doing

one is enjoying the experience for itself
the other only sees it as a way to an end

You just stated above that the only reason "we" play PvE is to unlock skills and get items for PvP. Other than that PvE is as "exciting as old socks".

Yes, of course I will leave when I've tired of the PvE.

Just like you won't play any PvE once you've unlocked the stuff you want for PvP, and will leave when you've tired of the PvP.

You enjoy old socks?

Uh huh.
In case you have forgotten, you argued that:

"PVE IS FUN FOR US BECAUSE OF THE PVP REWARDS. WE DONT PVE TO KILL MONSTERS. THERE IS NO RAID CONTENT. NO PVE END GAME. THE PVE FUN IS UNLOCKING.

THERE ARE NO PVE REWARDS FOR PVE PLAY. IF ALL SKILLS ARE A BUTTON CLICK AWAY, PVE WILL BE AS EXCITING AS A PAIR OF OLD SOCKS."

Now you're suddenly saying that you enjoy PvE for itself, just like I do.

So which is it?

Let me think... hmmm. No. I'm not lesbian.

You have an impressive imagination. Really. You should do something with it... ever considered a career as a writer?

I have yet to see anyone state the pure PvE is not fun, and poorly done. The problem is, for MMO standards, it is SHORT. Which is fine, a lot of great offline games have less content. However, it doesnt entertain most pure PvE'ers long enough to stay for months, unless a new expansion is released. The Devs did a great job with the no monthly fees there. Pure PvE'ers can finish the content in a couple days to a few weeks, then buy the next expansion. It works out for them and it works out for Arenanet.

Now after going through all the non-PvP content, the PvP based rewards are what still makes the PvE aspect of the game fun after 50-200 hours. Which is why I still play and enjoy PvE after doing all quests, exploring, and finishing the storyline. While others who dont care about PvP quit.

And an UAS button would kill THAT. Namely, my next 500 hours of PvE fun until I have unlocked most skills. Yep, FUN, cause I dont grind and see no need to.

If you still dont understand that, then I can only shake my head and stop caring whether or not people have any ability to listen or discuss without getting offensive.

Indeed, as stated above, the story, quests and exploring were fun by themselves when I did them the first time. For about... 120 hours. Now, unlocking skills is why I STILL enjoy PvE. For more hundreds of hours.

You can dig for possible contradictions all you want, and you'll probably find some, cause (DUH!) I'm not a native english speaker. I guess I could find an expert to go over all my posts and find/correct exactly the word that expresses exactly what I meant exactly the way I meant it, but... no, I dont care to.

Peace.

Oh well im beaten.

/me sobs

If there are so many people who cant find anyhing else to do besides asking for the PvE linear story part of a game to remain fun for the 100th time through it, this world is doomed anyway.

*edit: since you didnt like my pseudowitty way of writing:

Why does AN care if all the "true" PvE players quit after the second time through? Thats why i am suprised by the "artificial content". Less Server load, and they will have beautiful memories haunting them till they finally get an expansion. "More content for a game i enjoyed 3 months ago" is the best argument to sell one.

I can think of worse ways to pass your time - just think about all the time spent in other MMORPGs where you perform the same redundant tasks over and over until your eyes bleed...

this game was billed as everyone being on a equal playing field and where skill is more important then time played. All the UAS button does is unlock the skills for that character. You can not bring the skills you get from a UAS button into pve. The pve players will still get there fun from unlocking skills and runes and the pvp player can completely ignore the pve part of the game. The only people that a UAS button would effect is the elite grinders who want any advantage they can get over everyone else. So much for skill over time spent and being casual friendly to everyone.

Awww, Ensign doesn't want to do ascenscion runs :P The games really going downward for a number of reasons I guess.

No, a UAS affects everyone. Read both this thread, the other UAS thread, and people's posts to find out why. There's been some really good arguments made for both sides, but as Airong said in the other thread, there's a million misconceptions on both sides. No ones going to budge, and half the posts seem like people aren't even reading anyone elses posts. To the few that have been and have been evolving hteir debate, I salute you. I know my opinion on this has changed since this started, because I'm reading the arguments, and actually thinking about the statements instead of just "This is my side, I'm sticking to it and not reading anything anyone thinks." Airong, Lazarous, you helped changed my opinion to my current "unlock through pvp" stance, and my change the SoC stance. I've put my new stance that I'm happy with up, and now, I'm done with these threads. They all mutate into people not even thinking about other people opinions, and everyone telling each other that they don't know how to play.

My FINAL stance: A one week unlock through pvp method. It's a learning curve that's much needed by many, especially new players, and it will make pvp better. Capture Elites from other players, and be able to unlock skills, runes, and upgrrades through pvp. That's my stance, just so you all know where I stand.

And now, I'm out of this argument, I'm sick of going in circles.

UAS may level the playingfield but it will also level the creative field. If UAS was implemented (though it won't be accordong to A.Net) it would be great for the PvPers for about a month or two until the absolute best combos were ironed out and then it would be a game of sameness. every monk would have the same uber set up, so would every ele, etc.... I guarentee the same people in here whining about this would be bailuing out of the game after maybe 4 or 5 months. If everyone is the same it may be coimpletely skill based but it will defenetly be an arena full of the same things. Once this point is reached why have skills at all since each class would be using the SAME skills, armour, weapons, and runes. At that point everyone might as well be doing 5 dmg to each other. UAS will kill this game.

If the game is as balanced as everyone is saying it is, there won't ever be a "best combo". So there is nothing to worry about. Also, the PvP in this games is based on counters. So if there ever was an extremely popular build, like the one you are describing, it will quickly the be countered and forgotten. Then the counter to the original build will be countered, and so on.

Edit: added to the post

This is an excellent point which one needs to fully appreciate before making suggestions on how to change the game. One of the core principles guiding the design of GW appears to be this -

The PvP experience is about taking your PvE character, in whom you have invested a great deal of time, into a PvP environment.

This may not be the game you want, but it appears to be the game A.Net wants to make. When suggesting changes to the game, make sure they don't violate this principle. UAS violates this principle and will never be implemented. Having separate PvE and PvP ladders violates this pricinple and will never be implemented.


- Ian

That's actually a very good analogy, Loviator in almost every aspect. It has one flaw though (most analogies do have some flaw by virtue of being analogies). The means to an end presented in the beach example is a realistic constraint guided by actual real world mechanics. One can definitely choose to enjoy this means to an end or to simply treat it as work. The means to an end in guild wars for those who view it as work is a completely artificial barrier for those who want to simply experience the end result of their grinding (a fair PvP experience in most PvPers' case).

Morrowind had an editor. It allowed you to access (and change) the content of the game. You could place the best armor aviable in the game in the very first "starter chest". While this wasnt "one click away", the 100 mods or so that apeared on the first day and did exactly this,were. It totally ruined the replayability of Morrowind. Noone bothered to actually enjoy it, noone bought the expansions, noone invested huge amounts of time to create mods because the community would just use the editor to check what was in them and get bored after 10mins.
I cant understand the silly PvPlers who want to do this to GW.

This is a perfect example of someone who doesnt read other people's posts.
You definitely didnt read mine, and if you did, I'd like to know why you STILL have this opinion. Cause I have a ton of arguments against the points above.

^ All of those arguments boil down to wanting an unfair advantage.

And this boils down to not realizing that those who play more, and take more time to learn their skills and possible combos, will always have an unfair advantage. I'm a casual player myself, but that's life and I dont expect to be on top of the ladder. Why cant people just play for the fun of -playing- instead of constantly demanding to be the best?

Sheesh.

It also boils down to wanting to change a game that many enjoy the way it is. So why change it? No matter what you do, some will be ticked off.

Celes, from now on you have to play Soccer (or whatever) in a wheelchair. Those who dedicate themself to this great game can get rid of (unlock) this disadvantage.
Alternative: you buy it from welevelj004ca$$.com. It is LAW of MMOs that these sites MUST exist.

I am pretty much aware of the fact that i get owned in chess, soccer or GW, no matter what. With UAS, at least i would know that i wasnt playing in a wheelchair (or with one of my hands tied behind the back). If you cant understand the concept of time-> training vs time -> random task that can be done by a monkey (or Welevelj004ca$$):

Those "Nolifes" that can hone their skills 24/7 by playing this game >>> Those "Nolifes" who own me based on time (cash) spent.

silly, silly pve'er...you don't understand this game do you?

um seriously, UAS != godlike. there isn't an even playing field in competitive pvp atm and you know what, it won't ever be even at this pace. your morrowind analogy doesn't fit because um, well this isn't morrowind and never was intented to be like morrowind, and we already know what all the skills, runes, and weapon mods are in the game yet ppl still play. not to the mention that UAS doesn't necessarily make you a better player. it just makes the game actually fun to play.

and capturing elites off other players better be a joke. i thought the pokemon craze died with the last millenium.

The problem is, actually, that peole DO believe that UAS = GODLIKE.

Thats why UAS = lame cheaters.
People enjoyed morrowind with the best armor from the start. I didnt call them cheaters. Its not a cheat if everyone involved has fun.

Seriously, thats why the current situation is so lame. You know what skill xxx is, because you had to study them all in order to decide what skills you grind out (same for runes, but you cant plan which ones you get). There are no secret skills, runes or whatever. If there were any, the PvP crowd would NEVER complain on these forums. They would never talk about "the game that does NOT exist"

Morrowind had UAC (unlock all content) and the content actually was fun / new. Yet it still worked. In GW, the unlockable content is only fun if you can play around with it after you have it. Others may disagree.

(btw i hope that either you or me missed the invisible /sarcasm tag. Morrowind was one of the best games ever.

please dont use the word "intended" in connection with a MMO company (NCSoft). The only thing intented is to make $$$ by ripping people off.)

I think the guarenteed existence of welevelj004ca$$.com sites is actually a pretty good indicator that there is a problem with the MMO design. Why put in something so horrible that players will pay hard earned real life cash to avoid it?

People do not settle for anything but trying to be the best. What is the sense of joining a contest against other people and not trying to do your best to beat them. That is where the challenge and fun is for a lot of people. The reason people want the UAS button is this game was suppose to reward skilled players over grinders.

Thats a silly comparison, cause I dont know anyone who enjoys playing soccer in a wheelchair, but loads of people like GW unlocking the way it is. Why demand a change if people enjoy it? Either way someone will be unhappy, but less of work for the Devs without a change that might have undesireable effects other than the ones already pointed out by me.

There isnt a problem with the design. There is a problem with human nature. Human beings are lazy bums if they are offered an option to be - why do so many suffer health problems up to death from effects of overweight if it would be more healthy and even enjoyable to do sports if only they tried?

It is also part of human nature to want to be 'better' than others as quickly as possible and with as little effort as possible. It gives them some odd sort of satisfaction. Briefly.

Right, but... lets assume you start playing tennis. Would you expect to win against the world's #1 in tennis during youre first week of playing, and get pissed off if you lose? Doubt it. Instead, you'd start playing against your neighbor or friend, and enjoy beating them once in awhile.

The same goes for GW. People get ticked off because they cant beat the upper ranked guilds, and instantly want to be part of the #1 team. They want all skills and runes unlocked, then would still scream bloody murder because the top guilds likely have more time to play and train than they do.

Why not start to play against smaller, not so high ranked guilds who dont have all skills and equipment unlocked either? Thats what I do... it is a lot of fun.

So this game was designed to be played by elves?

It's target audience was humans. Therefore, human behaviour can be expected from players. Not taking that into account is a design problem.

If players are meant to have these items, why make getting them boring?

If players are not meant to have these items, why put them in?

I wouldn't expect to win against the #1 tennis player. I would expect to start with all my equipment though so that the only thing that seperated me from that #1 player is the skill we had at the game.

The problem is, again, others dont find it boring.

Same answer for you. Another tennis player enjoys earning additional equipment to play during the course of playing. And the system is set that way. Isnt it sort of selfish to want to change the system and take the fun from the other tennis player? And who has more of a 'right' to enjoy themselves, you or the other player?

Yep, I realize these examples are getting sorta silly. :P

Perhaps this is a better example:

You just started playing golf, you can purchase any clubs you like that are for sell to the general public, same as anybody else. But Tiger Woods is an "Elite" Golfer, spends lots of time and has endorsments from club makers that provide him unique and custom clubs. You would not expect to start the Pro Tour with your own endorsments and custom clubs, these things must be earned over time and effort on your part. So is the Pro Tour a level playing field? No. Is the Pro Tour Fair? Yes. Does Tiger win every tourney he plays because of his "Club Advantage"? No. A guy with a set of K-Mart clubs can come out on top, if his skills are top notch. I believe this is the kind of structure A-Net was shooting for...not a perfectly level playing field, but a model for fair play where skill is the true deciding factor. And personaly, I think they are closer to this model than anyone gives them credit for.