Grouping ethics...

Ok, I am getting a little frustrated... part of grouping with classes is to make your party more effective with all of those classes... I am a lvl 15 E/Me (so I have little to no healing capabilities.)

I recently was doing The Frost Gate mission and I decided that instead of soloing (with henchmen) like I normally do, I would get in a group... The full group we had consisted of THREE of the members being a monk as a secondary proffesion... I am thinking GREAT! We should breeze through this... one of them was in fact a lvl 20 W/Mo.

To my dismay I died several times and never got healed once. I unloaded my healing spells prior to the mission because there were three monks in my group. When I asked, "Uhh... do you monks ever heal?" the reply was pretty much "no, I am only a monk to heal myself..."

None of the monks looked out for anyone in the group, and to get a rez was like pulling teeth.

By the end of the mission I was at -60% stats...

It would be nice that if people want to party, they make it clear that they don't follow the path of their proffesions.

-Tyrana Mistfyre

W/Mo's very rarely are dependable as a healer in a PUG, typically...and im generalizing, W/Mo's tend to be a little selfish unless they just flat out say 'i only have self heal spells'

which is fine and they can play that way, and since you never played with, or at least not that much with a PUG before, you didnt really know what to expect

generally you'll come to know that if you have no Mo primary in your group, you shouldnt expect any healing...

By rule of thumb consider only primary monks as dedicated healers.

W/Mo miss the divine favor healing bonus and they are usually short on energy, so they can't afford to heal other party members very often.

Generally all the attack classes (W, R), that have a Monk secondary will see red when the fight begins and will refuse to heal anyone than themselves.

Of course there are exceptions, but more on the Ranger side.

Of the others mostly Ele/Monks can do some healing because of their large mana pools, but don't expect any life-saving actions, because the primary monks can heal much more effectively.

War/Mo are horrible in groups... tanks have too much to worry about without worrying about healing the party also. Ranged warriors would work but its pointless to do that since rangers are so much more effective at range... healers need to stay out of the action. Most people don't realize this.

So... basically when I am in a group full of monks who dont heal, maybe I shouldn't focus my damage spells on the multiple mobs attacking the warrior taking all the agro? Perhaps I should just sit back and conserve energy by only attacking the mobs who come at me?

The whole point of grouping with others is to help each other out. Damage is what I do, Im an E/Me, (fire based)... if I can't count on my party to look out for me and heal me, then why would I help them by killing 4-5 mobs at a time with my meteor shower?

I am just saying that it seems a little backwards to party with people who are Whatever/Mo who don't heal. I can use henchmen and stay alive longer. (Which is probably what I will wind up doing)

i'd lay the blame on the group leader for not getting any healers and going tank heavy

while having three tanks is nice...it leaves the rest of your group, which is usually some support characters, out to dry, as they will be targeted first...have less armor...and have nobody to heal them...

As a rule of thumb do not stay in groups, that don't have the healer role assigned - be it a full-time Monk or 2 secondary caster/monks for one primary.

Sometimes we do some actions without monks, but everyone has to be ok with that. Even in random groups. It's much thougher, because the warriors need to actually protect the most damaged characters and that's not what an average group will be able to do.

Actually most of the M/?? I have seen are rarely healers, I have seen more ??/M that are healers for some reason. Almost all of the M/?? I have seen are protection and some smiting. So IMO it is best to just advertise for a healer and see what you get, and do be suprised if the monk is secondary.

I started grouping with other players (other than my husband) this weekend. My Me/Mo was pretty much the only /Mo who was healing in all the parties I was in. I was surprised at the lack of healing of other party members being done by the other /Mo characters.

On the flip side, it did surprise the members of my parties that I was healing them. They were like "Who's healing us?" So, I guess it isn't expected of the /Mo characters to heal.

Many people take monk secondary for the unlimited res rather than the res signet. I do that with most my PvE chars and the other 7 slots are of my primary profession. Also if you are dying that much you are not staying far enough back. Let the warriors engage and once the battle is going run up and drop all your AoE on top of it.

I never rely on someone with /Mo unless they explicitly say they are 100% support healing.


I have an Elmo. I have a Nemo.

I MIGHT throw word of healing or breeze on a team mate to help out between my castings, but there is a reason Mo is my secondary... it's there when I have time for it. I have other things that take up my time and energy and if someone dies because I was midcast and couldn't fire up WoH, well, not my concern. I'm more than happy to stop casting and throw out heals to help the monk if shit hits the fan, but otherwise I'm cursing and raising my babies (minions).

Edit: Also, I HATE relying on a healer to "get to me when they can". That's why 3 of my skills are healing. Healing Breeze (+7 regen), WoH (supporting the team mates, cheap so why not?), Heal Area (after battles, I use on my minions, during battle, I don't CARE if it heals the bad guy beating on me, I don't want to die and 120 extra health is nice).

As being a being a primary monk i realized a long time ago that my 2nd class wasn't really gonna matter. I could not afford to burn up my energy with spells or go in there war style and beat them down with monk armor. I am far past lvl 20 and have beaten the game and i find myself as an exellent healer. I just hate when the team ALWAYS blames the monk/monks. I actually have just let my team die before bc they kept whining. I was only monk and i had to conserve energy to heal an 8 person team and yea i would let there health get below half or so before i healed them so i could conserve but they didnt die. They were dumb of the situation so lets just say the next mob taught them a lesson. From then on i got no gripe from that group.

I play as a dedicated healer, so it's good to hear that all the part-time monks aren't stealing our job :-)

Secondary monks can have a hard time keeping themselves alive. On more than one occasion I have found myself healing a W/Mo. To heal a team effectively, you really need to have multiple spells. For example, I often use a combination of Healing Breeze and Reversal of Fortune to keep a teammate from dying. To keep my own heal high so I can focus on healing others I use Live Vicariously.

It's also a matter of focus. Dedicated healers have little else to do but to heal.

I play a W/Mo and I'm one of those that will go to save the non-tanks if I see them being attacked. I don't have the energy to afford healing most of my teamates, although I want to. So, I try to heal myself to stay alive so the monk(s) can heal others. I'd also throw in a heal or two (if I have the energy) to heal the monks or those close to dying, and take the rez with me in case someone dies. In a general rule, don't expect secondary monks to be effective healers, especially warriors since they only have 20 energy. This is the same as asking a secondary warrior to tank, or a secondary ele to deal massive damage, because they should be focusing on the primary. There're exceptions, but don't expect much.

I play both W/Mo and Mo/Me, and let me tell you. W/Mo is NOT a healer. The energy regen is about 2 at most, and unless the warrior spend all the points on Healing attribute he's still only half as good as a healer than a Monk as primary class because of the missing Divine Favor.

Please do not judge a class without knowing all the facts. Even if a Warrior concentrate on nothing but healing, it's going to be VERY hard to keep the group healed... and then he won't have a chance to do any damage and play his role. When I play my healer doing high level missions, I have a very hard time keeping everyone alive even with my healing bonus... do not expect a W/Mo to heal the party other than keeping him self alive. And it's not selfish only healing him self, he's saving the energy the monk has to use to heal the warrior.

Selfish is when you don't bring a rez signet because you're not a healing class.

Lady Leara, I appreciate your point on this, but let me say that all of this tell me that if I am a dmg dealer (i.e. E/Me) then I have no reason whatsoever to party with real people because there is no one I can expect to save my neck.

My job is to deal massive amounts of damage... I am good at it... but as I mentioned I have literally little to no healing. If I as a damage dealer am going to be expected to deal dmg, then I would also expect the trade off to be kept alive. A warrior can tank a group of mobs till they are all halfway down on health, and as soon as I throw a meteor shower at that grouping, literally half of them come my way. I have no defenses against this. And as such, I DO think its reasonable for me to expect someone in my party with an /Mo to heal me.

As I said, the opposite point of view here is that I dont do any damage and I just sit in the background and only attack mobs that come my way. This isn't the way to play in a party. If I have to go out on a limb because my professions demand it, then I would also expect my party to reciprocate and make sure that I dont die. I out damage really good warriors by 2:1 with all my fire spells... I would think that I would be an assett to the party.

Tyrana Mistfyre
lvl 16 E/Me

Fie!

E/Mo's are, IMO, better healers than Mo/whatevers (or, at worst, only a hair worse). Sure they miss out on runes and Divine Favor (which hurts the healing/spell somewhat), but with a much larger energy pool, I can afford to throw my healing around a lot more. I can spam Word of healing + Heal Other + Healing Breeze combos for at least 3 people before I have to slow things down. I realize that after about 2-3 minutes into combat my extra energy has probably run out, but by that time if we don't have things pretty much under control, I don't think we'd have had a better chance of having it under control with a monk primary either.

However, when the group has an E/Mo, be sure to ask if they heal or nuke, because most of them do nuke.

Its really already been explained; You should not jump to conclusions based on a players seconday profession, if I went into a group expecting you to do interupts and other mesmer spells, would I be justified in being unhappy?

Its a question of effectiveness, I don't even like warrior/monks in the first place, I'd rather have them 100% focused on tanking and dealing damage than even healing only themselves. I will not play in a group without a dedicated healer in it. Quite frankly you chose the wrong group for what you wanted, so you truly only have yourself to blame.

You want healing? Get a monk. If your more comfortable with Alesia, Lina or Mhenlo then there ya go.

You can party with a Mo primary or a more mature group. As I mentioned, as a W/Mo, I would try to save a nontank as best as I can and throw in a heal or two if I have the energy. Just don't expect too much from secondaries. By all means, ask before you go into battle if anyone's healing (even if there's a primary monk, because he/she can go smiting). If none said so, either leave the party or expect to play more defensively.

EDIT: BTW, you should avoid damage anytime even if there's a healer, since you're just letting them down. I understand the pain as being targeted all the time, but you should try your best to save yourself first. You just can't expect it's others' duty to keep you alive.

I changed the secondary on my warrior to monk in order to keep myself alive longer. The primary monks do not have to worry about me and this benefits everyone else.

I cast mending on myself and use the remainder of my energy for warrior skills. I also bring rez signet along.

You can't expect a warrior with his 20 energy to heal a group. You need to be responsible for yourself. As a warrior, I was rarely in danger of dying.

I've now started a monk primary and nothing is more annoying then have to constantly spam healing on warrior/monks. They have the ability with their warrior skills and monk skills to keep themselves alive.

Rambis... Lady Leara really nailed it here, and while I totally understand your frustration, do think that there's an element not sinking in with this. A Warrior primary, regardless of their secondary, has little energy and abysmal regeneration. I have an Elementalist primary character too, and it wasn't until I started playing a Warrior that I realized how weak they really are regarding energy management overall.

Most non-adrenaline warrior stances and skills require 5 energy to use. If a warrior casts one +10 or +15 skill from their secondary along with a single stance or energy-based attack skill, they are pretty much out of energy for the rest of the battle. If they have a Zealous weapon equipped, which drops their regen to 1 pip, this can become even more difficult.

I understand expecting an Ele/Mo, Mes/Mo or Necro/Mo to heal you when in trouble... my point is to never expect a W/Mo to heal anybody but themselves except under extreme circumstances. They are in the middle of the fray, trying to pull aggro, protect party members and stay standing while being pummeled on from all sides, often with less than 10 energy in their bar at any given moment. It's not being selfish... it's simply a matter of the way a warrior is wired.

I prefer to have to heal them, that means they are doing their job. A warriors job is tanking and dealing damage. If they are taking damage that means they are tanking, if they need healing that means they are busy dealing damage instead of wasting their resources using their own less efficent heals. What is more annoying is when casters stand there and get beat on - they are so much harder to keep alive and will drain your energy in no time. PvP is an exception of course where casters are always primary targets.

Edit: Actually those warriors in PvE using long outdated armor are the most annoying. Their health drops like a rock as they try to tank and then get pissed because you can't keep them alive grrr.

I play a Necro/Ele.
Doesn't have much in the way of healing, but the tanks love me.
Let them hack someone down, then cast Well of Blood (pumped up to +3 regen).
The warriors learn VERY quick to stay within the pretty green circle of blood.

There are a few other healing options available, but Well of Blood is my favorite because its cheap, and it can heal all party members. (Provided they stay within the circle.) Cost=15 energy, health regen max=6 people x +3 = +18 regen for the party. (Or +24 for a group of 8) Thats a lot of extra health for the party.

Just my 2 cents....
Dwig

If you EXPECT people with a secondary monk class to always have to heal you, why didn't you take Monk as your secondary class yourself?

Dedicated healers are becoming rare in the game, since most 12 year old punks feel the need to abuse them when they're so flaming retarded they run off into a poison swamp, out of healing range, to take on that lvl 28 boss and his 10 lvl 20 minions, then bitch that they died in two seconds.

Most people now take secondary monk to heal themselves when needed, and to have unlimited ress. I've given up on trying to play any other 2nd class when I play with henchies, since alesia just dies within five seconds of being aggro'd. (HEAL YOURSELF YOU DAMN WENCH!!! )

Want to say, btw, that my E/Mo rocks in healing. If a party I join has no dedicated healers, I will switch some skills around from fire to healing, so I will have healing 12, then I just spam Heal Other and Healing Breeze over and over. Works very well, and my large energy pool lets me do this for quite awhile.

Btw, I have yet to see a mob that's aggro'd on the tank come after me when you cast meteor strike on them. They will STAY aggro'd on the tank. It's so easy to shake aggro in this game that I don't understand why you're so worried about healing anyways
Casters, when you are taking damage from a monster that's clawing at you, RUN AWAY!
Run a circle past the warrior, and you'll train the monster onto the warrior, who's JOB it is to take damage. It's far easier for me to heal that one warrior than it is to have to try to heal 3 people continuously. If just the W is taking damage, I can keep him healed pretty much indefinitely.

Also, to avoid initial aggro, don't attack. Let the warrior do that, that way HE will aggro all the critters, and THEN you can spam your AoE damage. Don't attack first, causing all the monsters to scatter around, because that makes your tank useless too..

2nd monks, unless they are E/Mos, are not there for party healing. Don't count on them as such.

Creston

Of course you would be a major asset to any party, and my warrior would love to have you along. But be careful here, because I do think you're falling into the whole arrogance trap of "my Ele doesn't need warriors because I do uber damage" which seems to be all too common amongst nukers around here.

Your nuker can do more damage with a single spell than my warrior can, true. But my warrior can inflict deep wounds, weakness, bleeding and aoe damage on a per hit basis, with an axe that averages +120 hit per strike, and do a temendous amount of sustained damage per second. He can single-handedly take down a mob of 5 to 10 high lvl Ettins in a few seconds, with all of them pounding away on him at the same time... your ele would die quickly under the same situation. The Elementalist's spells are more effective because of my efforts in general. And a warrior can save an Ele's life by running over and pulling the aggro off of them, which can be almost as effective as a monk casting healing.

I'm not saying that one is better than the other... in a good party, each member knows their role in the group, and understands the roles of their teammates. We are working together as a team toward a common goal, and each of must adjust our strategies and approaches to best fit the party that we're currently in. Frankly, the whole "I do the most damage and should be healed first, or will simply stop attacking" attitude is the kind of thing that makes groups suck in the first place. A party of real people are not there to support you playing in solo uber mode... take henchmen along if that's what you want.

Not only does a team need to adjust to fit well with each other, but each member must adjust to fit well with the team as a whole. If you find that all of your parties suck because they don't understand you, maybe it's time to step back and question whether you really understand the team or not. I've had to deal with that question myself, and found that the better teams I've been in are ones where I adjust to fit in with them, not the other way around.

Finally and fwiw...

One of the biggest complaints I hear from Monks, both on the forums here and in private or ingame communications, is that Elementalists drain all of their healing attention in a group, making it impossible for them to keep their energy up and heal the entire party effectively.

In my experience so far, most Elementalists who dish out lots of damage think that they can also tank, and that the healers will/should just heal them while they get pounded on. And that's an extremely selfish attitude, which weakens the entire party. I know many monks who simply stop healing a party member who constantly demands all of their attention. It's impossible for a healer to be effective if they are continually focusing on only one player all the time.

Yes, Elementalist's get targetted by the aggro a lot, as you mentioned earlier. But there are ways to deal with this other than being spam healed when it happens. Warriors can take lots of damage with very little healing needed, so let them play that role. Let the warriors attack first and pull the aggro, or get the creatures in a mob surrounding them, then lay down that aoe spell or fireball to finish them off. If a creature is focusing on you, run over by the warrior and let them take them away from you... this is a very effective strategy for dumping creatures on the tank. If you cast a powerful spell, stand either behind the warrior when doing so, or around a corner where the warriors are blocking the passageway. Follow the targets being called, and help drop them faster when the creature is below half health and about to self heal. Focus your fire on the healers, instead of the damage dealers. Things like that...

Play smart and utilize the abilites of the team, then you might not need to be healed so often. Let tanks be tanks, and you do what you do best with good timing and positioning, and everything should be ok.

I agree that it is better that they are taking damage, because that means they are tanking. But, there are quite a few things that they can do to help themselves. I always used "Endure Pain" when I played my warrior. The added health of 258 for 12 seconds kept me alive so the monk could heal someone else and come back to me when their energy regen'd. With monk as a secondary, I could cast mending on myself to help get my HP back up. "I Will Survive" and "I Will Avenge You" helped as well.

The point is, a good party member will be responsible for their own health with the aid of the healers. I often never died and had to rez the monk at times.

As a monk now, I let the ones that run off die. I focus my healing on the warrior tanks. I warn any elementalist that tries to tank, that they will not be getting healed if they continue to tank. After I let them die the first time, they get the hint.

On a different topic: Is it just plain wrong for a Warrior to carry a bow?

in PvE,
bows have the longest range for pulling or for obstructed targets (towers)

every warrior should carry a spare bow
- you have 4 hotkey weaponslots for a reason

Monk does not always = Healing


you need to *ask* the party who can heal

Since this tread is titled 'Grouping ehtics' I would like to say this....
Having a monk in a group that is expected to heal and he/she has all protection skills up is a waste. Although protection monks are good they can ruin a group when he is expected to HEAL. It would be just as effective as having an El/Me (or another caster type) casting and getting agro then getting pounded on, trying to tank. Every player has a role to play in their group. The warrior should get agro and pull to the group, with this being a pattern the monk can cast healing seed or other HOT (heal over time) spells before the battle starts, then focus on one group member for healing. All casters should wait for a moment before chain casting, especially if your either continualy getting beat on till near death or if you have any DP. The more DP you have the more you need to wait til you start to attack.

There are many other group tactics that are a do or die situation, so its up to everyone to work it out and comunicate. If everyone rushes in you'll find out soon enough just how much you sux. I sure hope no one expects the warrior to be the main healer. Should he pull some attribute points out of swordmanship so he can heal the tanking elemetalist? A warrior can handle a small group of foes by himself for some time, especially whan there is a monk healing him. But an ele will die in seconds.

exactly.

Try letting the warrior do the tanking, just wait a bit and don't chain cast.

Yes, and a long bow at that, have you ever played a warrior puller? Makes the riverside mission alot of fun.

I have a Mo/R build pure heal, and a E/Mo build. With my E/Mo you wouldn't have a problem getting a heal out of me. I carry half my bar with healing. The only time would be when I am needed to do a massive amount of damage, then I can be running a bit low on energy, yes even Elementalists run low on energy lol. I would say you could look to some E/Mo classes for a healer at times. Again asking the person in the group if they heal would be a good advice. Heck even asking the Mo/xx would be good too.

Actually, a warrior with a zealous weapon and balthazar's spirit on regens at an equivalent of more than 4 pips. When my warrior was a monk secondary, I could actually throw healing breezes on my party members every 5 seconds or so, and still have enough to heal myself. In fact, in some parties, I had to act as a primary healer because for some reason the primary monk who was supposed to be a "healer" wasn't quite healing =/.

However, you're back in borlis pass, and chances are most warriors do not have zealous weapons and definately do not have balthazar's spirit (quest skill given at Beacon's perch) Thus, their mana regen is a equivalent of 2 mana every 3 seconds (1 every 3 if they have mending on) Even if they want to throw a heal on you, they probably can't because they simply dont' have the mana nor the regen to use a healing spell on you.

As I'm not monk secondary, I have no experience with Balthazar's Spirit. But with a Zealous weapon equipped, one pip is subtracted which drops it to one total. Then if someone casts Mending on me, which happens frequently, my energy regen basically comes to a halt.

Even with the +1 per hit of a Zealous haft, it's just not worth it to me. Since so many healers or semi-healers use Mending frequently, I stay away from Zealous weapons altogether now. Unless I'm using Frenzy, Flurry or some other attack increasing skill, Zealous weapons are kinda pointless.

I use 3 Gladiator armor items for 26 energy, and carry around a spare idol which ups it to 37 when I'm not the only tank in the group. As a necro secondary who switches between Curses and Death Magic, I'm very concerned about Energy management, and have had no success with Zealous weapons whatsoever.

But hey, who am I to talk... I use a Vampiric Haft on a Deathbane Axe, which some people think is simply insane because of the -1 Health degeneration. But I switch to it frequenly against the undead and have no problems managing the health issue at all. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Unless you're using Mending on yourself, your energy will not be affected. Isn't that right?

Last I checked, mending is maintained by the caster, so a healer casting it on you would not take away your pip of energy.

Anywayz, each pip is 1 energy per 3 seconds. A warrior has 2 natural pips, so that's 2 energy per 3 seconds or 2/3 energy per second. A zealous sword takes 1 pip and balthazar's spirit takes 1 pip to maintain.

A sword attacks every 1.2 seconds (0.8 seconds if frenzied/furried/berserker stanced/etc) So you're essentially getting 0.8333 mana per second from a maintained attack, which is 26% more than 2 pips. If using increased attack speed stance, you're getting 1.25 mana per second, which is 7% less than 4 pips). Couple that with Balthazar's Spirit, which gives you 1 mana and x adrenaline everytime you're hit (physical or magical), against a enemy which attacks you every 1.2 seconds. Now you're getting 1.666 mana per second, the equivalent of 5 pips! Throw in multiple enemies and you'll almost never be empty.

Right now my warrior has switched to a necro secondary (to unlock skills) and with only a zealous, I have enough mana to cast well of power every time it refreshes along with a unholy feast here and there, and still have many left over for stances.

PS: Those numbers are rough estimations, I could probably be slightly off, but the general idea is there.

I have the same build as you, E/Me that is currently specializing in fire because I'm still levelling up in PvE.

If I'm in a group without a primary Monk, then what I do is throw a few points in Earth Magic and bring a couple of defensive spells with me. Yes, it means a couple less nukes on my hotbar, but it's worth it if it keeps me from a death penalty.

IMHO, you can get healers, whether Monk is primary or secondary. The question is, are the Primary or secondary monks in your party, healers or not? These sort of decisions need to be planned and is the responsibility of the group leader. He/she should determine what role each person in the party plays. I've been group leader in about 75% of the games I've played and I've been delighted at times when I've asked for monk primaries I've instead received requests to join from monk SECONDARIES sacrificing their fighting role to heal the party, who did their job exceptionally well mind you.

You just need the right sort of people in your party, unfortunately the group you described rambis sounds to have been rather uncoordinated and doomed to fail from the start . The solution is to (1) make sure you tell the leader that roles need to be ironed out at the beginning, (2) leave the party to join a more organised one or (3) create your own party .

Amen to that brother. My primary monk was in a group doing Thirsty River and silly me didn't realise it consisted of two mesmers. One of the mesmers was a gungho melee girl. She took tons of damage compared to the other team members, who also required healing. So I was running out of energy trying to heal all of them. And then she died and complained that the monk wasn't healing...in the first place I have to ask why is a primary mesmer doing melee? Needless to say, I left them high and dry. All the other members felt the healing was just fine except her.

Also came across an immolation elementalist who also fell into the same category. This is while doing Riverside. She too took inordinate amounts of damage compared to the others.

What I have noticed is that many players are too reliant on the monk to do all the healing and don't employ any damage reduction of their own. All classes have it...but they either don't know it exists or are just flat-out poor players.

Some players also complain when I use Smite Hex cuz they love being hexed since some mods increase damage etc while hexed. How stupid can they get. A hex is a curse and curses aren't supposed to be good. The mod is there to help them survive in case they're hexed but they stupidly don't realise that.

@OP. Don't expect any healing from monk secondaries because that is not what they excel in. They would be far more effective concentrating on their primary skills. If you can't find a PC healer, at least get Alesia or something if you want any healing.