Grouping ethics...

Hmm, well I guess I'll have to check on that. I was under the impression it did effect my energy, but could be wrong. If not, then my energy regen sucks anyway. I've made a build heavy on Adrenaline spells and 5 cost energy stances, with only one 10 cost spell.

If Mending only effects the caster, then I'll stop asking them to disable it.

Only the person maintaining it has lower energy regen...I pity the caster who was trying to keep you mended due to your ignorance.

I played with about 10 different groups earlier today trying to finish the thunderhead keep quest. There is ALWAYS at least ONE person who just does not listen to anything. It's like all their chat channels are muted and they're completely oblivious to the fact that they're even playing in a group.

One of the ones that pissed me off the most is when our Monk decided he was a tank. I knew he was going to get us into trouble because about half way into the mission where you have to clear the town he started to take point ahead of the warriors and get hurt, A LOT.

To stop here for a second, if people would run a tight formation this game is insanely easy with an experienced group. Warriors take point ahead of everyone else. Monks stay behind warriors but out of aggro range. Once warriors have the FULL aggro the monks run in and heal them since they're probably taking quite a beating. About the same time the elementals (me) run in and nuke the piss out of everything. This whole process probably takes 45 seconds at most with any mob I've run into if it's done right (even in UW and Fissure).

Something always goes wrong with this, though. Either the warriors are scared to take point and fight or they try to "pull" things towards the group and in doing so the aggroed mob goes flying right passed the warriors and attack the casters. Sometimes the casters will be too close to the warriors and the same thing happens.

Anyhow, back to that monk on thunderhead. Eventually we bumbled through the mission to the part where you have to defend the fort. We were ALMOST finished and he ran outside and tried to tank (no shit) the level 28 M-word (can't spell it, matuura, somthing, sorry) boss, BY HIMSELF. The whole team went outside to try to help him and in doing so, two jade warriors came in the back way and I was the only one left trying to keep them off of the King.

Various other problems as I've listed above were the cause of the other failures. If people would just follow that simple formation strategy this game is 100 times easier.

For pickup groups to really work, everyone in the group should know how other members are trying to function. There are some other documents on this, but the BEST way to understand each proffession is to walk a mile in their shoes.

Some things you'll quickly learn:

Primary Warriors: Under no circumstance can they cast well. It's just not really possible. They have the best armor, and therefore are best able and expected to take the most damage (because they end up taking less).

Healers: Any caster class with Monk primary or secondary can potentially be a healer. You should always ASK who is healing, and how much. A party of six players often wants 1.5-2 healers. One Necromancer with a powerful Well of Blood might be ok for a backup healer (i.e., the half of a healer in 1.5 healers). You'll want a largely dedicated healer, which is *usually* either a monk primary or an Elmo. Many other classes (usually with Monk secondaries) can take some healing, and often do, but you should check. And to be clear, while many people debate the merits of it, a monk primary does NOT mean the character is a healer any more than WaMos are healers.

Healers a kind of contentious, as evidenced by this thread, even.

Elementalists (sometimes secondary): Elementalists can generally deal the most damage the fastest. In PvE especially, Fire can effectively wreck many monsters at once.

Elementalist Pretender: Elementalist primaries are often not really Elementalists. Because of their large energy pool, they are great primary casters for Monks, Mesmers, and Necromancers. It's definitely wrong to assume that an Elmo, Elme, or Elne is definitely a blaster.

In general, asking what other people are doing is a good idea. An elementalist primary CAN tank, if they are really trying to, using defense earth and water magic. Smiting monks abound (and take much abuse). If you actually TALK to your party, things will go much more smoothly. That little chat area is very important.

Interesting points being made, guess I'll toss in my two cents.

I play as a w/n so I can heal myself most of the time. However, I do appreciate the occasional spell when I'm following the leader's orders. Nothing worst than being told "Racthoh, rush the group and call the priest" and being killed before I reach the priest. Not even a Healing Breeze before I run in, an Aegis, nothing. The reason we have to wait 15 minutes before attempting the HoH is for a monk, and the monk isn't even doing his part in the party. Today I was frustrated when I looked down at the party screen to see that everyone by myself had a little yellow arrow indicating they had some form of enchantment on them but me. And it wasn't just because I was a warrior, because the other warrior in the group was enchanted.

In my experience, well of blood never works as well as I need it to. If nothing is dying, it is a useless skill to have and the limited range is only best suited if your enemy is also in the circle or the battle is pretty much over. Plus 8 guys standing in a small area is just begging for a meteor or two.

I can't relate entirely to a lot of the problems people are describing because I went through almost the entire game with just henchmen. I hate sitting in town waiting for monks to join. The only time I partied up was for missions that I just couldn't beat with any combination of henchmen. And everytime we failed the mission or lost in the HoH, the instant we were back in town the name calling started and someone would leave the group. Ugh.

Other than in specific situations, I'd like to see 120+ dmg from an Axe wielder consistently...it won't happen....but I do agree whole heartedly that each class or party member has a role and needs to stick to it.
I started a Wa/El build as my first character in GW's but have fallen in love with my E/Mo build, primarily because with the lil bit of Monk skills I have, I'm a 650+ health/Fire bombing beauty who knows that I can take some hits before needing healing (which I can do a lil of myself). I stay at range, letting (hopefully a smart tank) be the meat sheild while I help make his/her job easier by raining down for 100+ fireballs, Phoenix, Meteor Storms and Firestorms....and occasionally will run in close for a 100+ Inferno etc. Anyone who's played with Cynder Burn, knows that I don't try to tank with her and that I give to the party as good as I get.
...heck, how many players good or bad, do you know that will give you a high end item for your class either for nothing or for trade of something you found that fits my build??
....sorry for the self-horn tooting, but like many who've posted above, it gets a lil old playing in pugs where someone thinks they are the know-all to end-all and END up causing the party to rinse n repeat. In the perfect world, I'd see 2 Tanks with a Monk assigned to each, 2 Ele's for the AOE + 2-3 of any of the other classes for the benefits they bring Necro (Well of blood is great for the warrior once a dead body is lying at their feet), Rangers poison and in some areas their spirits are GREAT buffers, then the Mesmers stealing energy, draining life....hey we all need one another for allot of situations but if you THINK you're that good.....adventure alone.

Secondary Mo's are crap at healing, especially for themselves and this is most because they don't have Divine Favour. Best they can have for a group is Heal Other, which for me with 10 in Healing, heals for 132 BUT I can't use it on myself. The best I can heal myself is with Orison of Healing which heals for 53. Healing could potentially take up my entire time but that isn't why the group picked an E/Mo in the first place; they wanted a nuker.

It's a secondary class for a reason. Never expect someone to be specialised in a secondary profession.

Unless your in a guild and your working as an organised team, then your no1 role is to keep yourself alive.
It is NOT the job of anyone else in your PUG to keep you alive! Even if they are a prime Monk - Especially if it is PvP.

In PvE then things are not so bad. Monsters are easy to shake off and any prime monk can keep himself free of mobs enough to heal the party.
But your 'healing' prime monk (not smiter etc) needs you to work with him!. Keeping yourself alive makes it easier for him to keep everyone alive.
Staying in a battle where you are taking huge damage is not only a way to get yourself killed, but because the monk is focusing on healing you, everyone else may be killed as well. - You then blame the monk when infact you should blame the fool who does not know how to stay alive!

In the act of keeping yourself alive, there are many ways to perform this action. 1: Run away (Always good). 2: Heal yourself. 3: Control mobs. 4: Protection.

a Wo/Mo often takes option 2 or 4. He can also use option 1 with sprint. This means he will need major healing less often than other members. Thus he will not be a drain on any prime monk. (Unless he is stupid). It does not mean he will have time, mana or skills enough to heal anyone else.

Unless YOU declare to your PUG that your unable to look after yourself and need a prime healer to watch over you, then don't complain that you end up on -60%. Only 1 person is to blame here - you!
What skills did you bring with you to keep out of danger? Any Teleport, Run, Heal, Cure, Life Drain, Protection, Steal skills etc should have been used when things got rough. Did you try to shake off any mobs? In PvE this is very easy to do.
or, as so many players do, did you just stand there, spamming your skills as you seen you life and the mobs life get less and less. Thinking - 'Someone better heal me soon!' and 'I am sure I can drop this mob before he drops me'.
If your still at the skill spamming stage then you have a lot of playing skill to gain. That's the difference between a poor player and a great player!

Sorry to be so harsh but no Sympathy at all mate!

Your second proffesion is a mesmer so try to use ether feast on yourself. You have way more mana then a warrior and if you use armor of earth you dont need to heal yourself that much. I use these skills om my E/ME and i live way longer then the tanks i the party.

A second proffesion like a monk is more off a support for your primary proffesion and if you se a /monk dont expect healing from that player (dont even expect healig from a real monk, it can be a smiter or a protector). If you want healing do it yourself wich your own skills or ask players if there is someone that can take the role as a healer.

I understand this, but I suppose the reason I won't let it go is because it wasnt just a W/Mo, there were two other monk secondaries in that group, one was a N/Mo and one was a R/Mo

In my open and honest answer I would not expect them to heal me.
I would however be a bit miffed if none of the /Mo's has a Res spell on them to pick up my sorry butt when I failed to keep out of harms way!

The point is still the same.. That necro could just be carrying heal area at 6-8 pts of healing prayers, sure, it sucks for healing usually, but with minions it can be great. That ranger could have been carrying smiting prayers for Judge's Insight and such, you should never just assume that you know what this character or that character is going to be doing based on their profession.

you assumed they could heal

sounds like poor communication because no one asked if anyone could heal


Rezzing is the responsibility of the entire party

you dont need to be a monk to be able to rez

just a side note:

I have a R/mo -- but im specced as a pure ranger

only monk spell I bring with me is Rebirth

I have a Me/N, but haven't touched necro spells since Ascalon. Would you also be angry with me because I don't have Blood is Power?

Should everyone's builds cater to your expectations?

im a w/mo and i tend to healing myself b/c after one healing breeze, i am down to half of my energy, however, if i see someone goin down of health fast or bleedin or blind or whatever, ill send tehm a healing breeze or a mend condition as well, but i dont have enough power to do continuous healin for the whole group. I used to be a w/e w/ a mana pool of 39 energy w/ the helpof the gladiator armor (+7energy) and a flame artifact (+12 energy) and i turned to a w/mo b/c a lot of the time, the monks would be pre-occupied w/ otehr to heal me, and also majority of the time the dont take off my blindness and it is frustratin as a warrior to be blind and to "miss, miss, miss" in place of damage. but if i can, i do tend to heal a lil and to mend conditions and i revive as quikly as i can

I know that with our group that we venture out with, we don't ever have a Primary Monk (other than Alesia, when we borrow her...). We never have a problem in missions or quests at all. We all have fun doing our jobs and working together as a team. I have myself as a Warrior/Necro, a Elementalist/Monk and a Mesmer/Monk, and it's great fun. We don't worry about who will heal who and such. They have minor heals, but we focus on dealing damage and disruption, and we find that we work out well together, even without the massive heals of primary monks.

I play a R/Mo. For Monk skills, I carry Judge's Insight (if I expect undead) and Resurrection. For healing I use Ranger skills -- Troll's Ungent for myself and, occasionally, Healing Spring for the party. I try to make it clear to the team, before we start, that they should not expect healing from my character.

With the last couple of missions, The Wilds and Bloodstone Fen, I have partied with a guildmate who is a Monk primary. I have really learned to appreciate the effectiveness of a dedicated player-healer. However, up to that point, I've been partied with quite a few */Mo's and have not received (nor expected) any healing.

I disagree.

First of, your primary monk will have around 40 energy (on average), where I have 80. While his divine favor at, say, 10, will do 34 extra healing per spell, he can only keep casting for about a minute or so at a sustained rate (using orison of healing) before running into energy issues.

I use Heal Other and Healing Breeze at healing 12. I have no real specific spell to heal myself, which is a weakness, but I simply overcome that by never aggroing. And if a monster DOES happen to find me offensive, I'll train him on the tank. I never understand why people that aren't supposed to be tanking take along three or four PERSONAL protection /healing spells anyways??

But I digress. I can keep up to three party members healed for about 1.5 to two minutes before I start running into energy issues. That's a lot longer than the monk can do it.

Hey, don't get me wrong, primary monks rock. But the E/Mo is a VERY, VERY good healer. If you don't believe me, team up with me sometime, Shauna Wolfsclaw. If the team does their job right, and only two tanks are taking damage, I can keep them healed until Anet switches off the servers.

Creston

1) 100% agree there. ASK who heals in town. When you join a team, say hi to your team, explain to them what your roles are and what role the leader would like you to fill. Then ask who will be healing. If there is no healing, ask if that's going to be a problem.

2) I agree that ressing is the responsibility of the entire party, however, any 2nd monk who does not bring a ress SKILL, is in my opinion missing the whole point. What, you want the R/N to bring the freaking ress signet because the monk can't be bothered to sacrifice that slot for the ress skill?
I'm sorry, but I WOULD expect a 2nd monk to have a ress SKILL (ie unlimited uses). Even my W/Mo has one, and believe me, I have plenty of other stuff to spend that slot on.

Creston