Grouping ethics...

Hmm, well I guess I'll have to check on that. I was under the impression it did effect my energy, but could be wrong. If not, then my energy regen sucks anyway. I've made a build heavy on Adrenaline spells and 5 cost energy stances, with only one 10 cost spell.

If Mending only effects the caster, then I'll stop asking them to disable it.

Only the person maintaining it has lower energy regen...I pity the caster who was trying to keep you mended due to your ignorance.

I played with about 10 different groups earlier today trying to finish the thunderhead keep quest. There is ALWAYS at least ONE person who just does not listen to anything. It's like all their chat channels are muted and they're completely oblivious to the fact that they're even playing in a group.

One of the ones that pissed me off the most is when our Monk decided he was a tank. I knew he was going to get us into trouble because about half way into the mission where you have to clear the town he started to take point ahead of the warriors and get hurt, A LOT.

To stop here for a second, if people would run a tight formation this game is insanely easy with an experienced group. Warriors take point ahead of everyone else. Monks stay behind warriors but out of aggro range. Once warriors have the FULL aggro the monks run in and heal them since they're probably taking quite a beating. About the same time the elementals (me) run in and nuke the piss out of everything. This whole process probably takes 45 seconds at most with any mob I've run into if it's done right (even in UW and Fissure).

Something always goes wrong with this, though. Either the warriors are scared to take point and fight or they try to "pull" things towards the group and in doing so the aggroed mob goes flying right passed the warriors and attack the casters. Sometimes the casters will be too close to the warriors and the same thing happens.

Anyhow, back to that monk on thunderhead. Eventually we bumbled through the mission to the part where you have to defend the fort. We were ALMOST finished and he ran outside and tried to tank (no shit) the level 28 M-word (can't spell it, matuura, somthing, sorry) boss, BY HIMSELF. The whole team went outside to try to help him and in doing so, two jade warriors came in the back way and I was the only one left trying to keep them off of the King.

Various other problems as I've listed above were the cause of the other failures. If people would just follow that simple formation strategy this game is 100 times easier.

For pickup groups to really work, everyone in the group should know how other members are trying to function. There are some other documents on this, but the BEST way to understand each proffession is to walk a mile in their shoes.

Some things you'll quickly learn:

Primary Warriors: Under no circumstance can they cast well. It's just not really possible. They have the best armor, and therefore are best able and expected to take the most damage (because they end up taking less).

Healers: Any caster class with Monk primary or secondary can potentially be a healer. You should always ASK who is healing, and how much. A party of six players often wants 1.5-2 healers. One Necromancer with a powerful Well of Blood might be ok for a backup healer (i.e., the half of a healer in 1.5 healers). You'll want a largely dedicated healer, which is *usually* either a monk primary or an Elmo. Many other classes (usually with Monk secondaries) can take some healing, and often do, but you should check. And to be clear, while many people debate the merits of it, a monk primary does NOT mean the character is a healer any more than WaMos are healers.

Healers a kind of contentious, as evidenced by this thread, even.

Elementalists (sometimes secondary): Elementalists can generally deal the most damage the fastest. In PvE especially, Fire can effectively wreck many monsters at once.

Elementalist Pretender: Elementalist primaries are often not really Elementalists. Because of their large energy pool, they are great primary casters for Monks, Mesmers, and Necromancers. It's definitely wrong to assume that an Elmo, Elme, or Elne is definitely a blaster.

In general, asking what other people are doing is a good idea. An elementalist primary CAN tank, if they are really trying to, using defense earth and water magic. Smiting monks abound (and take much abuse). If you actually TALK to your party, things will go much more smoothly. That little chat area is very important.

Interesting points being made, guess I'll toss in my two cents.

I play as a w/n so I can heal myself most of the time. However, I do appreciate the occasional spell when I'm following the leader's orders. Nothing worst than being told "Racthoh, rush the group and call the priest" and being killed before I reach the priest. Not even a Healing Breeze before I run in, an Aegis, nothing. The reason we have to wait 15 minutes before attempting the HoH is for a monk, and the monk isn't even doing his part in the party. Today I was frustrated when I looked down at the party screen to see that everyone by myself had a little yellow arrow indicating they had some form of enchantment on them but me. And it wasn't just because I was a warrior, because the other warrior in the group was enchanted.

In my experience, well of blood never works as well as I need it to. If nothing is dying, it is a useless skill to have and the limited range is only best suited if your enemy is also in the circle or the battle is pretty much over. Plus 8 guys standing in a small area is just begging for a meteor or two.

I can't relate entirely to a lot of the problems people are describing because I went through almost the entire game with just henchmen. I hate sitting in town waiting for monks to join. The only time I partied up was for missions that I just couldn't beat with any combination of henchmen. And everytime we failed the mission or lost in the HoH, the instant we were back in town the name calling started and someone would leave the group. Ugh.

Other than in specific situations, I'd like to see 120+ dmg from an Axe wielder consistently...it won't happen....but I do agree whole heartedly that each class or party member has a role and needs to stick to it.
I started a Wa/El build as my first character in GW's but have fallen in love with my E/Mo build, primarily because with the lil bit of Monk skills I have, I'm a 650+ health/Fire bombing beauty who knows that I can take some hits before needing healing (which I can do a lil of myself). I stay at range, letting (hopefully a smart tank) be the meat sheild while I help make his/her job easier by raining down for 100+ fireballs, Phoenix, Meteor Storms and Firestorms....and occasionally will run in close for a 100+ Inferno etc. Anyone who's played with Cynder Burn, knows that I don't try to tank with her and that I give to the party as good as I get.
...heck, how many players good or bad, do you know that will give you a high end item for your class either for nothing or for trade of something you found that fits my build??
....sorry for the self-horn tooting, but like many who've posted above, it gets a lil old playing in pugs where someone thinks they are the know-all to end-all and END up causing the party to rinse n repeat. In the perfect world, I'd see 2 Tanks with a Monk assigned to each, 2 Ele's for the AOE + 2-3 of any of the other classes for the benefits they bring Necro (Well of blood is great for the warrior once a dead body is lying at their feet), Rangers poison and in some areas their spirits are GREAT buffers, then the Mesmers stealing energy, draining life....hey we all need one another for allot of situations but if you THINK you're that good.....adventure alone.

Secondary Mo's are crap at healing, especially for themselves and this is most because they don't have Divine Favour. Best they can have for a group is Heal Other, which for me with 10 in Healing, heals for 132 BUT I can't use it on myself. The best I can heal myself is with Orison of Healing which heals for 53. Healing could potentially take up my entire time but that isn't why the group picked an E/Mo in the first place; they wanted a nuker.

It's a secondary class for a reason. Never expect someone to be specialised in a secondary profession.

Unless your in a guild and your working as an organised team, then your no1 role is to keep yourself alive.
It is NOT the job of anyone else in your PUG to keep you alive! Even if they are a prime Monk - Especially if it is PvP.

In PvE then things are not so bad. Monsters are easy to shake off and any prime monk can keep himself free of mobs enough to heal the party.
But your 'healing' prime monk (not smiter etc) needs you to work with him!. Keeping yourself alive makes it easier for him to keep everyone alive.
Staying in a battle where you are taking huge damage is not only a way to get yourself killed, but because the monk is focusing on healing you, everyone else may be killed as well. - You then blame the monk when infact you should blame the fool who does not know how to stay alive!

In the act of keeping yourself alive, there are many ways to perform this action. 1: Run away (Always good). 2: Heal yourself. 3: Control mobs. 4: Protection.

a Wo/Mo often takes option 2 or 4. He can also use option 1 with sprint. This means he will need major healing less often than other members. Thus he will not be a drain on any prime monk. (Unless he is stupid). It does not mean he will have time, mana or skills enough to heal anyone else.

Unless YOU declare to your PUG that your unable to look after yourself and need a prime healer to watch over you, then don't complain that you end up on -60%. Only 1 person is to blame here - you!
What skills did you bring with you to keep out of danger? Any Teleport, Run, Heal, Cure, Life Drain, Protection, Steal skills etc should have been used when things got rough. Did you try to shake off any mobs? In PvE this is very easy to do.
or, as so many players do, did you just stand there, spamming your skills as you seen you life and the mobs life get less and less. Thinking - 'Someone better heal me soon!' and 'I am sure I can drop this mob before he drops me'.
If your still at the skill spamming stage then you have a lot of playing skill to gain. That's the difference between a poor player and a great player!

Sorry to be so harsh but no Sympathy at all mate!

Your second proffesion is a mesmer so try to use ether feast on yourself. You have way more mana then a warrior and if you use armor of earth you dont need to heal yourself that much. I use these skills om my E/ME and i live way longer then the tanks i the party.

A second proffesion like a monk is more off a support for your primary proffesion and if you se a /monk dont expect healing from that player (dont even expect healig from a real monk, it can be a smiter or a protector). If you want healing do it yourself wich your own skills or ask players if there is someone that can take the role as a healer.

I understand this, but I suppose the reason I won't let it go is because it wasnt just a W/Mo, there were two other monk secondaries in that group, one was a N/Mo and one was a R/Mo

In my open and honest answer I would not expect them to heal me.
I would however be a bit miffed if none of the /Mo's has a Res spell on them to pick up my sorry butt when I failed to keep out of harms way!

The point is still the same.. That necro could just be carrying heal area at 6-8 pts of healing prayers, sure, it sucks for healing usually, but with minions it can be great. That ranger could have been carrying smiting prayers for Judge's Insight and such, you should never just assume that you know what this character or that character is going to be doing based on their profession.

you assumed they could heal

sounds like poor communication because no one asked if anyone could heal


Rezzing is the responsibility of the entire party

you dont need to be a monk to be able to rez

just a side note:

I have a R/mo -- but im specced as a pure ranger

only monk spell I bring with me is Rebirth

I have a Me/N, but haven't touched necro spells since Ascalon. Would you also be angry with me because I don't have Blood is Power?

Should everyone's builds cater to your expectations?

im a w/mo and i tend to healing myself b/c after one healing breeze, i am down to half of my energy, however, if i see someone goin down of health fast or bleedin or blind or whatever, ill send tehm a healing breeze or a mend condition as well, but i dont have enough power to do continuous healin for the whole group. I used to be a w/e w/ a mana pool of 39 energy w/ the helpof the gladiator armor (+7energy) and a flame artifact (+12 energy) and i turned to a w/mo b/c a lot of the time, the monks would be pre-occupied w/ otehr to heal me, and also majority of the time the dont take off my blindness and it is frustratin as a warrior to be blind and to "miss, miss, miss" in place of damage. but if i can, i do tend to heal a lil and to mend conditions and i revive as quikly as i can

I know that with our group that we venture out with, we don't ever have a Primary Monk (other than Alesia, when we borrow her...). We never have a problem in missions or quests at all. We all have fun doing our jobs and working together as a team. I have myself as a Warrior/Necro, a Elementalist/Monk and a Mesmer/Monk, and it's great fun. We don't worry about who will heal who and such. They have minor heals, but we focus on dealing damage and disruption, and we find that we work out well together, even without the massive heals of primary monks.

I play a R/Mo. For Monk skills, I carry Judge's Insight (if I expect undead) and Resurrection. For healing I use Ranger skills -- Troll's Ungent for myself and, occasionally, Healing Spring for the party. I try to make it clear to the team, before we start, that they should not expect healing from my character.

With the last couple of missions, The Wilds and Bloodstone Fen, I have partied with a guildmate who is a Monk primary. I have really learned to appreciate the effectiveness of a dedicated player-healer. However, up to that point, I've been partied with quite a few */Mo's and have not received (nor expected) any healing.

I disagree.

First of, your primary monk will have around 40 energy (on average), where I have 80. While his divine favor at, say, 10, will do 34 extra healing per spell, he can only keep casting for about a minute or so at a sustained rate (using orison of healing) before running into energy issues.

I use Heal Other and Healing Breeze at healing 12. I have no real specific spell to heal myself, which is a weakness, but I simply overcome that by never aggroing. And if a monster DOES happen to find me offensive, I'll train him on the tank. I never understand why people that aren't supposed to be tanking take along three or four PERSONAL protection /healing spells anyways??

But I digress. I can keep up to three party members healed for about 1.5 to two minutes before I start running into energy issues. That's a lot longer than the monk can do it.

Hey, don't get me wrong, primary monks rock. But the E/Mo is a VERY, VERY good healer. If you don't believe me, team up with me sometime, Shauna Wolfsclaw. If the team does their job right, and only two tanks are taking damage, I can keep them healed until Anet switches off the servers.

Creston

1) 100% agree there. ASK who heals in town. When you join a team, say hi to your team, explain to them what your roles are and what role the leader would like you to fill. Then ask who will be healing. If there is no healing, ask if that's going to be a problem.

2) I agree that ressing is the responsibility of the entire party, however, any 2nd monk who does not bring a ress SKILL, is in my opinion missing the whole point. What, you want the R/N to bring the freaking ress signet because the monk can't be bothered to sacrifice that slot for the ress skill?
I'm sorry, but I WOULD expect a 2nd monk to have a ress SKILL (ie unlimited uses). Even my W/Mo has one, and believe me, I have plenty of other stuff to spend that slot on.

Creston

I have never met a monk without rez

Sadly, I have met E/Mos with no rez
(which I personally find inexcusable because E/mos are often the 2nd best healers -- after a monk)


I've failed plenty of missions because the sole survivor of a bad encounter didnt feel any need to bring a rez signet

it depressing having a group cheering the last person alive to escape
- only to find out 2 minutes later they have no rez signet

Thanks to all for the clarification, as none of the negative energy degen spells that I've read say in their description that only the caster is effected explicitly.

Yet still, there's no reason to pity the caster due to my ignorance, as I would politely ask them to just turn it off and focus on someone else, and give them that one regen back. No harm, no foul.

I've seen this kind of comment a few times now, and can't imagine a warrior who is actually scared to fight or tank... that seems a little ridiculous. I know that in my case that what often happens is when/if I stop to survey the path ahead or take an accounting of the creatures ahead to figure out an effective approach, that someone in the group usually gets impatient and just runs ahead leaving me behind. It's not a fear to fight or take point, but an attempt to apply patience and tactics in an effort to assess the situation ahead.

Some creatures will do an end run around the warrior toward the group no matter what you do. In those cases, what seems to work best is to let the warrior get far enough ahead of the group to get the creatures' attention on them first, and then have the group come in close once that's established.

Plus sometimes the best approach is not the direct one... moving along the compass and approaching the group from a different angle, or pulling the creatures toward a tactical land position can have an effect on who gets the aggro, and how the creatures approach the party.

I think healing prayers is a horrible choice for a w/mo, smiting all the way.

Hmm... if I use just about any damage boosting skill, my axe will hit for 120+ damage most of the time. With using no skills at all and just swinging normally, it does a minimum of 80 damage on just about every hit, unless the creature is heavily armored or placing a hex on me that messes with my attack.

Of couse, I have 13 Axe Mastery, 7 Strength and three customized max damage axes (+20%), each with a +16% or higher damage under certain conditions. I focus on deep wound inflicting skills combined with Axe Twist, which adds weakness on top of the wound, and then Executioner's strike for a damage spike, or Penetrating Blow which adds a damage spike and +20% armor penetration. I often see numbers pop up that are around 120 or higher, at least on creatures in the Maguuma Jungle, which is where my character is at.

I guess a lot of it does have to do with when I strike, and under what conditions that attack is happening. Axe skills are great for applying deep wounds along with other conditions on top of that, then laying in with a massive spike hit to take them down. Great for use against self healers.

I tend to tell the party upfront before we leave that I do not have res signet, which usually gets the group discussing who does and who will equip one. I'll try to remember that list who does, and then focus on helping keep one of them alive when the group is in a dire situation. It also never hurts to remind the last surviving healer with a quick, "I don't have res!" or simply "Run away! I'll hold them here!" to the one who does have a res signet when the healer goes down, and then try to pull the mob away from the downed monks position.

Hmm, there are other very powerful healing skills in the divine favor category which an E/Mo cannot use effectively. One such skill is aura of faith. Nothing comes close to a primary monk when it comes to healing. And when primary monks chain their healing, the extra healing from divine favor can really bring a character from the brink of death to maximum health, especially in fights against hydras or other elemental damage dealers.

I've done it a few times and received compliments for that.

Maybe you can get away with no res in PvE as you can always do the - Run to Cut Scene - bit and res everyone.
But NEVER enter PvP without a form of res. No matter what class you are!

I'm a W/Mo and I try my best to support my team by healing them whenever I can. ^__^

Have played almost 200 hours of PvE, and have no idea what you're talking about here. Certainly if one player completes a mission, then everybody does. But in quests, there are no cutscenes. I'm not aware of any magic formula that resurrects the dead without a res signet or spell, without the entire party dying and being resurrected at once. I don't know if zoning to a new instance resurrects the other members, because I've never tried it... imho, that would be kinda weak.

Fwiw, I've been told that anyone who carries a res signet into PvP is a noob, and that no respectable PvP team would carry them. Whether that's true or not is a matter of opinion. Guess I'll just have to make up my own mind. And right now, I don't have room to carry a res signet in my build, thank you very much. Actually, I've looked at a ton of the PvP based builds listed and posted on this site, and rarely recall seeing a res signet among them.

Bottom line is... nobody is going to tell me what skills to eqiup in my own build, regardless of how authoritarian they come across with their tone.

I am a lvl 20 Mo/W and wield a sword in the front row always.

....doh why is the monk not healing?......
.....nOOB, i am a warrior why dont you monk stay in the back my armor is better......

everybody, who ever spoke those words is a fool and has now idea what a monk is capable of..

Like a lot of reasonable guys said before above, YOU are responsible for your own health. Offcourse the principal of a team is working together and ofcourse i try to help my fellow compagnions stay alive, as i do espect that the W/Mo or R/N or whatever will do that for me too.

But anyone who thinks that a monk is synonym for healer is not worth the effort playing with. I never ordered an Elementalist before that he MUST use firemagic or ordered a ranger that he MUST have a pet ressurection with him.....???

Everyone must respect the skill choices the fellow partymembers make. They DO make those choises on purpose and have a REASON for having certain skills and doing what they do.

There is no right or wrong, it's about the way your team plays as a team.

I'm a dedicated Healer Mo/Ra too.

But I carry an awesome bow, because I want to and my ranger skill of "run away" and "distracting shot" really come in handy. The downside is that I don't have as much energy as I could.

So I tell groups that I will heal as much as I can, but if I'm th only monk, healing 8 party members is goign to be very hard on me, please help me out by healing themselves and their fellows. i find as long as I communicate that first, 1) they tend to try. and 2) If it goes FUBAR, they understood why it happened.

But with another monk in the mix, even a Hench, I rock. Especially a Protection monk, because that Kiss of Dwayna stacks and all of sudden I'm healing for 100 pts for 5 energy.... I can do that a long, long, long time.

Its all about communication.

I for one, think there is nothing wrong for being a sword wielding, front line monk, smitin' left and right.

BUT!!! please communicate that first, in town, so everyone understands... if everyone is informed, then everyone can adjust skills and tactics accordingly. But, it you didn't tell me, went running into the fray, I would be shaking my head wondering what the bejeebers is going on with you.

I,as a Healer monk, NEED to know that you are front line fighter so I can make sure I'm close enough and to watch yer health carefully. This is SO not a problem if you have at least one enchantment on you... I can heal you cheaply with Dwayna's Kiss (like i mentioned up top). But communication is key.

I dont agree here.
true, communication is the key and true, people must adjust skills to each other also I do tell people often in advance that i am a swordsfighting/smittingmonk.

BUT!!! In a true good party EVERYBODY is talking in advance what are his or her abilities and weaknesses. It is not my responsibility to be the only one telling people in town what i am.

He!, if you are a level 20 character and ASUME i am a healer just because I am playin monk, well..........

I meant, everyone in your team, while in town.... not everyone in the town.... sry, I wasn't clear with my wording.

And I'm not suggesting that YOU are the only one who should communicate... everyone should.

But there are certain Skill/weapon/Tactic choices that are more easily... misunderstood... last night I played with a very competent Mesmer who WASN'T a domination-centric skill set... and that miscommunication between her and the leader got us in hot water.... we all talked, we compensated and everything was fine.

Like I said, if I saw you run into a mob as a monk with a sword... I would be wondering... BUT if you TOLD me that you were a sword weilding monk... I would not be wondering and I would be adjusting my tactics to support yours.

uh who in their right mind expects someone with a secondary monk to heal you nomrally? nobody. hence why you should never leave town without some sort of a healer. w/mo's are probably the worst ones to rely on, my w/mo has mending on at all timees wich brings my energy rejen to 1. so i have 20 mana, and i have 2 5 energy attacks on me+my adreniline attacks which take up most of my mana. that is why each class has some form of healing for themselves, just incase you cant finda healing monk.

Warriors are useless....for everything. the peolpe that play them are useless...the class is useless...stop partying with them.

As a Mo/N I always heal my party, and only during intense battles do I run out of energy, other than that my energy is usally around the 1/2 point.

Aside from that, this thread is "Grouping ethics" so I want to bring up another point for random groupings: Leaving a group halfway during a mission.

It happens way to frequently, you are questing or trying to do a quest and someone just leaves, no explanation, just *poof*, gone. In my opinion if you started a quest with a party, you should finish it, because, chances are, you will be needed during the quest. Yesterday I quested with 3 other people, we were going from Piken Square to Grendich Courthouse, and 2 of them left. It was not fun getting there. When you are level 10 or so, trying to fight 4-5 Charr at one time, it is pretty tough.

If I join a group, I feel like I have an obligation to finish the quest that was advertised.

It pisses me off when you can't finish a quest because someone decided that they didn't want to be in the party anymore.

They could've got disconnected. But I agree that you should stick it. If something really important in your RL pops up, at least tell the group that you're leaving, so they can decide on what to do and cope with the situation. And tell them before or after a battle, not during a battle.

This is especially common in the mission with the lightning drakes (Gates of Kryta, I believe) or the dragon's cave. The person will join the group under the assumption that they are there to actually do the mission, but then just disappear. Strangely enough, their disconnect seems to coincide with the last drake's death or their successful capture of an elite. I've never played a game where people can be so selfish and have such a disregard for the rest of their group.