Hostility Towards Guild Specificity?

*sigh* I wish people would read my posts
What, if anything, have I said that will lead you to believe that I will cram my believes down your throat if we party together? I think I have made it clear that that is not MY style, nor do I encourage such behavior. However, I cannot control what other people do...
darn the lack of mind control powers

Actually, from what I'm seeing, it seems almost discriminatory...

"Are you Christian?"

What if I'm not? Does that mean your guild is better because it has more Christian people in it?

It sounds almost like a racial discriminatory remark. What if someone wanted to join the guild but only Christians are allowed? I can imagine why some people [who are of the majority age and not the minority] might snap.

I'm Christian myself. I however don't believe in ANY form of discriminatory 'rules' to follow when recruiting.

If the person is a noob, then we train them to be better.

What REALLLYY sickens me is when these people advertise not just for Guilds but for Parties where they say, "Want to join up? MUST HAVE VENT/TS AND MUST NOT BE AN INCOMPENTENT ****ING MORON!"

God jeez man, you know how stupid you sound when you advertise your party/group that way?

There should be NO GUIDELINE/RULE for recruiting someone because your most powerful members may just be the most unexpected ones.

To get to the point, you should just be careful how you recruit people both for guild or for parties. Any "if" would be enough to piss people off even if it's not spoken.

You can recruit the way you've been recruiting if you wish and I'm not going to say anything against it, however, you should realize by now that hate and prejudice exist at the core of human nature and that's impossible for anyone to change...

Just deal with these people as best you can, for if you can't, you have to change...

Intolerance of other beliefs/customs are generally what start wars. Religion itself does not breed intolerance, but intolerant people often are strongly religious. Thus, religion is blamed, because the intolerant take actions in the name of their chosen religion.

Some very prominent historic Christian leaders were very intolerant. Martin Luther for example, who expressed some pretty intolerant views on Jewish practitioners in his book "On the Jews and Their Lies".

Well of course it's discriminatory. That's the whole point of forming a guild, to associate with like-minded individuals. Forming a guild exclusively for Christians is no worse than forming one exclusively for Star Trek fans.

No, it doesn't. Furthermore, it should be obvious to anyone with basic reading comprehension skills that it doesn't say that. Anyone who takes it to mean that is going out of their way to take offense. If you're offending yourself, you shouldn't blame someone else for it.

"Are you Christian? Consider joining our guild!"

It should be blantantly obvious to anyone that this is an attempt to form a guild of like-minded people. Would you have a problem with?:

"Are you an anime fan? Consider joining The Otaku Guild!"

If not, perhaps it's time to ask who is being discriminatory here. Why do you not mind guilds like the latter recruiting like-minded individuals, but find the former objectionable? Why do you discriminate against religious people? (Or do you reserve your discrimination specifically for Christians?)

If it's not simple discrimination against the non-secular, then how do you justify not taking offense at the second but finding the first objectionable?

Bingo. A guild for Trekkies would be okay, but a guild for Christians is not? You tell me, who's practicing discrimination here?

Grace,

You seem like a caring, sensitive young adult. Maybe too sensitive for some of the things you will surely be subject to in the online gaming community. Married at 20, which is considered young for these times, and quite devout to your faith. These are all admirable qualities, though not shared by most you will meet here, myself included.

I still maintain my $0.02 says what needs to be said. For a topic about intolerance to others ways, 240+ something posts later you better believe religious beliefs are a powerful and volatile subject. Take the advice of myself and Garric and keep real life religion far away from a fantasy game that involves killing things and you will experience a lot less grief from the community. This is not a threat but rather good advice.

Abuse of religion through intolerance damn well is at the root of many conflicts historically.

The Christian "attitude" is just about being a good person and everyone knows in their own hearts if they fit that mold.

Enjoy your gaming experience. I hope we will meet and play sometime.

I will post on this topic no further.

Peace

Not to get "preachy" but Christianity is not about being a good person. Muslims, Buddhists, Aethiests can all be good people. Christians have a relationship with Jesus Christ. As far as my age goes, and this is not to toot my own horn, I don't act like I'm 26. You don't find many 12 year olds that have read/studied plato, aristotle, etc. You don't see a 13 year old who is interested in reading shakespear. You normally don't find a kid conversing with people 30+ and holding their own in a conversation. Most people that I meet don't think I'm "26" most think I'm closer to "36" personality/maturity wise. Again, I don't say this to brag, just stating who I am.

Personally I enjoy video games, and find that I enjoy playing with other people. It's a great way to find out about people by the type of game, and how they, play. Because of my strong faith it is a part of who I am. So if you get to know me, then you are going to know that I'm a Christian. This is not something that I'm ashamed in, and don't think I should be. As such I like to play with "like-minded" indiviuals as has been stated in this thread before. Not exclusively, but there are times when I just need people who understand and are on the same page to play with. I have a lot of non-Christians on my friends list as well as in RL. The only way I could keep my "religion" out of the game would be to not play. And I'm not going to be out on the street corner, bible in hand, preaching hell fire and damnation. But if we get to know each other, it'll come up

If you read a notice somewhere which said something aling the lines of "Are you Christian? Consider joining the Church of Saint John" And you were a budhist/muslim/jew/any other religeon would you be offended? I wouldn't - all they're asking is that if you are a christian that you consider joining the church - they are not saying that just because you are a christian your church is somewhat better than someone else's temple by any stretch of the imagination.

They're not stopping you from coming and having a look around the church/attending mass if you are a non-christian. (I even know of some people who do attend mass, but would not really call themselves christian or catholic.) They are just saying it would probably be more suited to someone who is christian - not that you have to convert just to walk in to the church.

grrr, I can't believe im posting again.

Christian "attitude" is what I referred to, not the meaning of Christianity. Love and compassion are at the root of its pricnciples and without them lies an empty faith.

There's no reason to toot your horn. Noone is belittling your intelligence, or your dedication to your faith.

I was merely trying to understand why you feel it necessary to recruit based on real life religious beliefs. If your intention was to discuss Christ in between missions and/or discuss personal real life situations in outposts, then it would make perfect sense. Is that your intention?

I do not share with others in the game on these topics. These topics are for real friends and family in real life. This is a game with objectives that usually require teamwork and common courtesy to achieve success and satisfaction.

This game is a fantasy where you can choose characters based on your desires, like playing the benevolent healing monk or the killing machine warrior tank. Character opposites in the game, though playable by the same real life person. These things we are not in real life.

The more you say "not to get preachy", the preachier you get. You just cannot or will not back down one iota in this thread. You are who you are and will continue to be so. This was never about your faith, but rather your surprise when it was thrown back in your face. This was about you putting your faith in places it was not wanted and where I and others feel it probably doesn't belong.

Good luck with your Christian guild and may God have mercy on you with the continued shit storm of insults you will likely continue to receive in the game when recruiting. Funny though, I don't think you will really mind. It will just strengthen your "Christian" resolve.

Wow, okay. Not even sure how to respond to that so I think the best thing to say is: Thanks for your opinion.

GraceAlone

Unless I am completely mistaken, that is exactly what GraceAlone said the guild would be doing.

Right Here:

C'mon Gracie don't get all defensive and hurt like I insulted you in anyway.

Your second to last post said all that needed to be said about yourself. You were completely unwilling to accept any blame in the hostility directed towards your recruiting methods. Noone has been able to convince you of anything in 250 posts. There was no, "hmm maybe I shouldn't phrase my guild invitations that way".

I wish you no ill will, but merely am stating a fact that you will continue to receive the scorn of the thoughtless immature masses in the gaming community while recruiting because if you won't change, and you seem like a mature reasonable person, you know damn well some of these kids won't either. So, it seems you and your detractors will eventually reach an impasse. It's not that big a deal as you will endure on.

I agree that there really is no reason to continue this discussion, As you stated you cannot keep your faith out of the game. So be it. You will respond to this no doubt so I will allow you the last word you desire and deserve on your thread.

Signing off for real this time.

Peace

Well Quintus I see your point. I missed that one. That post was a long time ago.

I still feel it is misplaced and will continue to draw fire so Gracie should look out. That's all. Don't be surprised by the response.

There's a reason why you don't see overtly-religious gaming communities out there, and you've run right into that wall. If you feel the need to bring your views of christianity and organized religion in general into the game, then you should damn well expect to hear the other end of that never-ending debate as well. For you to wonder why people just can't accept you wanting to have a christian guild is beyond me. I think your guild has no place in this made-up world of Toril... we are playing games to get away from all the BS the world has too much of. Expect hostility, and that goes for any other guild based on stupid ideas from the real world.

Actually, I think that Lane has just described exactly why you will feel hostility from some when you recruit. Everyone plays games for a reason. Some people have very specific reasons and needs. Some people play online games because they NEED to escape something. The more specific their needs or wants, the more people they will be angry with for not conforming to their gameplay experience. This can certainly be magnified by a predisposition to anger over a certain topic. As long as people play an online game, expecting it to be exactly what they want and need, with no flexibility or concern for the wants and needs of others, there will be conflict.

I may look you up in game Grace, great name.

Matt

Ugh, I can't believe you can act so igonorant about this issue. Religion isn't on the same basis as Star Trek. Believe me. People die over religious issues every day. Almost every day I am abused by Christians at school since I am atheist, with discrimination and people calling me names and stuff like "You are going to hell.". I get this shit from adults too, people who you would figure would be normal people. But I guess this is the "normal" Christian attitude. Not to mention that my Islamic friend was beat up by a bunch Christian boys from our school. I don't want to deal with fricking fundamentalist assholes like you when I go to Guild Wars to get away from all of the bigotry, ignorance, and intoleration of Christianity. Please, just keep it to yourself.

I deal with a little discimination for being atheist too, but I enjoy the fact that the people "insulting" me are always less intelligent bigots. What I do is either find like-minded or tolerant people and I hang around them, not the psycho fundementalists

I do agree with your points that religion is a very serious issue where people do die; last time I checked, Star Trek hadn't killed many people

It seems to me that this should be in an Off Topic section. The topic was about "Hostility Towards Guild Specificity" and now it is about "Should we let the Christians live? If so, are they the cuase of the world's problems?"

Or, more likely, closed? o.x What does this have to do with Guild Wars?

What?


We are still talking about why his recruiting stirred up anti-christian sentiment within the guild wars community. Thus, it is still relevant

Well, I can tell you. Because many people don't like religion today. They think it's fake. They like the idea that we just all exploded into our positions and so on. People are intolerant of religion for the same reason that they are intolerant of Socialist-Extremists, because of the grief it has brought them.

They want to be free of these things because, in their theory, the world will be a much happier place and we can go on living out pointless lives until we die. Much like that of someone under some such government that they hate feels about what it will be like after government in question is revolted against.

For further answers, go on Google or Yahoo and type in something like "Gaming Forums: Do you think there is a god?" to see the answers you seek and how thoroughly the dead horse has been beaten on this issue.

IE, I do not enjoy every forum for every game I play having the same topics with the same conversations stated over and over again, from which no one gains anything other than the satisfaction of defending their opinions.

What prison are you incarcerated in? Have you talked to the guards?

Religion spawns hatred.

Religion incites war.

Religion is the basis of so much that is illogical and illconcieved.

Believe what you will, but facts and logic will always run my life before some 'faith' will ever intervene. Though this is very off topic and I apoligize for offending anyone, I feel it must be noted. And yet, I must also note that the previous statement was simply a safety net. Sure, religious groups may also bring a lot of good to the world, but more death has come from religion than life. I can not begin to understand how so many people can support such a corrupt and ignorant establishment as the church. God works in mysterious ways my ass - learn to cope instead of looking to fiction for a way to solve your issues.

Thank god I'm atheist.

Good to see some rational people around

Being told your going to hell isnt a problem just say that you dont think that there is a hell, they will say that there is then ask them to prove it, but before they can do anything get in the point that by hitting you they are proving your point, because they can do nothing else, because they are too f**kin small minded, like Fantras, to see the blaringly obvious truth in front of the nose. Now we cant prove there isnt a God not to worry Sciance is ever progressing and it is only a matter of time, but still why ppl cant think about religion logically and then watch it crumble.

Now on topic, you were being flammed, because you were being discriminant against non christians, this may not have been your intension, but this was how I rember it I was going to post in your guild thread over at TGH when I first saw it, but in the end didnt feel i had the strength to get into another religions discusion over the internet. It just think that few ppl can believe that as your running round Kryta or the Tombs you are quoting the gospel with other ppl in the guild

Edit: @Digital Limit without faith you will have little hope, so you have to put in the ppl around you friends, family and mankind in general they mayy not be perfect but they are all we've got, visable too

I said something rather inflamatory to call a big fat BS on what the guy said above about being constantly harrassed at school and being tired about it. If he's in Highschool or grade school, then there are certainly avenues he can pursue as they are (if he's in the US) funded by the government and, as such, he has protection against people trying to shove a religion down his throat at School when he's trying to learn. If he's in college, then it's a different story. In college, you have to deal with all types of political and religious crap all the time. We all did. I hate to be cold, but deal with it.

Reibus: being called small minded by someone like you I have no problem with. Thanks for the input.

I am strongly anti-Xtian & I have no prob with a guild that's is only Xtians. So it's discriminatory? So what? All guilds are. They allow ppl into them & keep others out of them. Am I gonna scream "DISCRIMINATION!!" because highly skilled guilds wont invite me to join them? No, why? Because I'm not highly skilled.

First, I must apologize that I have not given this thread my complete attention. I've been following it and posting from work (which I am at now) but have been very distracted as a result. So for that, I am sorry. For those of you that have been abused by Christians I am also sorry, and can only apologize for the actions of those who claim to be Christians. If I found out that one of my children had beaten up/abused a non-Christian because of their religious belief trust me, there would be some very harsh consequences. I also apologize for those people that are calling out fire and brimstone, and while it may have been a valid form of testament in previous generations, in my opinion, it is very ineffectual in today's society.

Second, I am very leery to post in this thread again because of the possibility of seeming to be argumentative when that is the furthest thing from my mind. Please understand that this is a discussion and while there are things to be said, I will try and same them. Whether it is the "last word" or not is irrelevant. So please don't take offense at another post by me.

Finally, I hope you of the community understand that I have made some changes, not in my opinion, but to the practices and methods of the guild. As stated earlier, if you see someone from the guild "preaching" to you and you are bothered by it, please let me know. There are some things that I take very seriously and while I think that people need to hear the gospel, at the same time I don't want it to be presented in an offensive way. I have submitted some changes to the GWG database to reword some of the statements concerning the guild, and while some of our goals remain the same, we are seeking to present a better "face" to the community. Please realize that I appreciate all of your opinions, even those of you who hate my guts, and find that for the most part this has been a very good, civilised, discussion. Basically the reason for this post to inform/show you of the community that your voice is heard, and that I understand and respect your opinions. I may disagree (completely) but that does not diminish my feelings towards you, nor my compassion and love for you.

Thank you,
Grace

QFE. Well said.

To the original poster: In your guild discription state clearly that you beleive that your religion stands for equal rights for homosexuals, right of every woman to abortion and an apology for the wars fought and millions butchered in the name of that religion (i dont care which one, all have done it) and i'll give respect.

You ask why ? Because the above points are as without any credible ground to stand upon as your own points about making a Christian guild.

By the way, everyone, have i mentioned that as much as I look down upon 1337 kids, i'll take someone yelling "OMGWTF Lol" to me any Sunday morning in-game over "Have you been to church yet son ?" in Denravi Dist 1.

I really think that such a controversial real-world subject has no place in this or any game. The topic of religion causes a lot of conflict, and who wants that sort of thing invading their chosen escape from reality?

It doesn't matter what the subject is - there is just no place for such a thing in a video game unless it happens to follow the game lore. It would be different if your guild was devoted to Balthazar, but in this case, the subject you're trying to bring into the game has nothing to do with what ANet has told us about the game.

Let the game be what it is. Keep any serious beliefs out of this fantasy world and in your real life where they belong.

think for yourself, create your own religion.

Could you elaborate on what you mean by this?

What if I were to create a guild based on political views? Like an all-commie guild .

I've tried that. And it still didn't work for me, simply because it was still a religion.

"'Faith' means not wanting to know what is true"-Nietzsche

Yes, kindly expand on your statement

i hear you, ive tried it as well. and the most fun i got out of it was giving everything a god and naming it something incredibly stupid. however, i think its just the principle behind the statement rather than taking it literally. well at least thats what i got from timothy leary's speeches

nice

Not only that, but thinking about this, how many of use have /kneeled to a stature in this game to " show homage" to a chosen diety? I am sure if you picked one of these Diety's and mentioned them in your Guild recruitment, nobody would bat an eye..........the same should be true then if one wants to mention that their Guild has a Christian theme. In, game, for all I know then, that would be a guild to a diety that perhaps I had not heard of before. From I am am reading the recruitment statement was, I would not have been offended in any way.

The difference is Christianity is a real life institution that has offended, insulted, or spit on people. Last time I checked, grenth and Dwayna hadn't insulted anybody...

Also, the in-game deities are part of the game. Chrisitanity is not. That is where the line would be drawn.

Sure, in the old days, preachers would stand on a street corner and preach to the masses as they passed by. Often times they would call out condemnation and damnation upon those that did not repent. In those days when people were told that they would go to hell it had an impact on them. In today's soceity this kind of preaching is ineffective, in my opinion. The reason being that people today either:

• a) don't believe in God and thus do not believe in hell
• b) think hell is going to be a big party so they want to go there
• c)if they believe in God believe that He would never send anybody to hell
• d)something else

That's all I can come up with or the moment, but that's why this kind of preaching, in my mind, is ineffectual and just turns people off to the gospel. Personally, I would rather dialogue and have you see the effect that Jesus has on my life, and if you still say "to hell with you," then that's fine. I'm sorry you feel that way, but it's not my role to condemn people to hell. Only God can make that call.
Make sense?

So threatening people with some fantasy-land is ok as long as they believe it?

You make me laugh

Most people hate guild's spam recruiting in general. IMO this guild is also kind of... pointless, but hey that's just me, I won't tell you not to do it.

But honestly, why don't you go cry to the Koreans about your small harassment problem. Take a look at how much people harass and cuss them out and they are not even playing on our servers. There is no accounting for other people's stupidity.


EDIT/ADDITION

To be even more honest, people play games to get away from real life. Athiests, Scientologists, Muslims, Mormans, Amish (jk ), or whatever, play a game for fun. When you are recruiting for a (what is essentially) church guild, I can see where it can be annoying. It is kind of like people are trying to escape the real world where religion and fanatics kind of ruin a lot of stuff (not solely but some do), and there you are recruiting for a religious guild. I am a Christian living in American and I even feel there is no escape from religion anymore, or rather other people's versions of it.

Think of it like this, its kind of like the jahova's witness at your door. It doesnt REALLY inconvenience you, but you hate it none-the-less

Well said. Religion is too volatile a subject and has no place here.

I don't personally care about Grace's recruiting methods or agenda one way or the other, but will reaffirm that Grace will continue to receive negative responses from the community and to expect it. This should be clear after the last 200+ posts.

The good advice was previously given, just not acknowledged nor taken.