PvP--/cry
Algren Cole
bullets don't fly straight in real life....it's not a fault in the game, it's an attention to detail
Santosh
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Originally Posted by Algren Cole
I have no interest...point and click and wait for them to die isn't my idea of fun.....it might be for others..but to ME it's a joke. There's no skill involved in GW PvP...there just isn't. You select your build..you enter the arena...you point on a target then select the skill to use...."Having Skill" doesn't mean a bunch of buttons on the bottom of your screen.
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You assume a point without ever trying to experience what the point is.
Your last sentence is not true. Not even close to the truth. It's an assumption. A generalization. It is not fact.
To put it black and white: Those skills at the bottom of your screen isn't a mindless click. You have to know when to click them and in what order, depending on the terrain, the opponent class, the team you have, etc. You get the picture now?
Algren Cole
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Originally Posted by Santosh
Uh, that's like saying I already know what China is all about without ever having step foot in China.
You assume a point without ever trying to experience what the point is. Your last sentence is not true. Not even close to the truth. It's an assumption. A generalization. It is not fact. To put it black and white: Those skills at the bottom of your screen isn't a mindless click. You have to know when to click them and in what order, depending on the terrain, the opponent class, the team you have, etc. You get the picture now? |
Spyle
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Originally Posted by Algren Cole
bullets don't fly straight in real life....it's not a fault in the game, it's an attention to detail
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I only brought that up because that is part of the luck factor in that game. I never said it was a fault in the game.
Algren Cole
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Originally Posted by Spyle
........... Wow really? Here I was, all this time, a complete moron.
I only brought that up because that is part of the luck factor in that game. I never said it was a fault in the game. |
never claimed you did...reitterating the point to people that believe counter strike is luck because people get headshots all the time...aiming, understanding recoil, knowing that spread effects flight pattern...that's skill, not luck.
Aug
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Originally Posted by Algren Cole
and guild wars is turn base...whether you think it is or not...wether it's outwardly evident or not...Guild Wars is turn based
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The game is not turn based.
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| I don't like chess...it's mind numbing. |
I could care less if you don't like GW. But don't claim it's skill-less simply because YOU don't have fun with it.
Just stop playing PvP. I hate getting CS-fanatics on my team in random arenas. And you obviously hate being there. So just do us both a favor and stop joining the fights.
Algren Cole
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Originally Posted by Aug
No, it's not. You apparently have never experienced a turn based game. A turn-based game would mean you couldn't take any action until I do. That is obviously not the case, because if I went afk in a fight, you could kill me while I did nothing.
The game is not turn based. |
you wait 5 seconds for this skill to recharge...you wait 2 seconds to use this skill...you fire 1 arrow every 1.75 seconds...THIS IS TURN BASED...the 'turn' is your skills recharging...or the time it takes you to swing an axe...or the waiting period while you fire arrows......just because it's not the same turn based system that Final Fantasy uses doesn't mean it's not turn based.
OneArmedScissor
If you can't stand the heat in the kitchen, then get out!
Simple.
Simple.
OneArmedScissor
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Originally Posted by Algren Cole
you wait 5 seconds for this skill to recharge...you wait 2 seconds to use this skill...you fire 1 arrow every 1.75 seconds...THIS IS TURN BASED...the 'turn' is your skills recharging...or the time it takes you to swing an axe...or the waiting period while you fire arrows......just because it's not the same turn based system that Final Fantasy uses doesn't mean it's not turn based.
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There is no "pausing" in the game. Hence, it is not turn based.
Spyle
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Originally Posted by Algren Cole
never claimed you did...reitterating the point to people that believe counter strike is luck because people get headshots all the time...aiming, understanding recoil, knowing that spread effects flight pattern...that's skill, not luck.
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Is knowledge the same thing as skill?
I know how to shoot a basketball into a hoop, using the same technique and everything, but I'm no where near as good at it as other people and miss much more frequently.
OneArmedScissor
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| I don't like chess...it's mind numbing. |
People who don't understand chess should not bash it by any means.
Algren Cole
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Originally Posted by Spyle
Is knowledge the same thing as skill?
I know how to shoot a basketball into a hoop, using the same technique and everything, but I'm no where near as good at it as other people and miss much more frequently. |
knowing and being able to incorporate it into your game = skill
fixed*
Aug
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Originally Posted by Algren Cole
you wait 5 seconds for this skill to recharge...you wait 2 seconds to use this skill...you fire 1 arrow every 1.75 seconds...THIS IS TURN BASED...the 'turn' is your skills recharging...or the time it takes you to swing an axe...or the waiting period while you fire arrows......just because it's not the same turn based system that Final Fantasy uses doesn't mean it's not turn based.
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Also, can you unload a whole clip of your Colt in 0 time? Can you stab/swing your knife as fast as you can click the button? No.
GW is not as fast paced as CS. I agree with that statement. But GW is not turn based.
Algren Cole
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Originally Posted by OneArmedScissor
Chess is the most popular game in the world and it's been around for over 1,000 years. It's mind numbing probably because you suck at it and get owned by patzers all the time.
People who don't understand chess should not bash it by any means. |
OneArmedScissor
Which obviously means you're not using proper technique.
Practice makes permanent. Perfect practice makes perfect.
Practice makes permanent. Perfect practice makes perfect.
Eclair
Algren: You have understand that people who play this game for PvP do not really consider random arenas as PvP. You've played through PvE and seen that at least 50% of the population are completely clueless to what they're doing. Same thing with random Arenas, no good player would play in it because its completely worthless in terms of real GW PvP.
It's pretty much the equivalent of playing CS in a random PUB with people who just started the game, or for people with really bad connections.
If you go to tombs during peak hours when a lot of the good guilds are playing, you'll see that a fair amount of skill comes into play, not just pre-planning builds and mindless clicking.
This game isn't built for random PvPs or 1v1 PvP, but rather 8v8 PvP.
It's pretty much the equivalent of playing CS in a random PUB with people who just started the game, or for people with really bad connections.
If you go to tombs during peak hours when a lot of the good guilds are playing, you'll see that a fair amount of skill comes into play, not just pre-planning builds and mindless clicking.
This game isn't built for random PvPs or 1v1 PvP, but rather 8v8 PvP.
Terminal
In this thread we have the classic mix of the clueless and the bored-with-nothing-to-do-but-post-on-a-subject-i-know-nothing-about.
A third of people compare apples to oranges and act indignant when told they are not the same thing. Sing-sing anyone ?
Lying at least once in 2 lines and geting 3 pages of responses is the hallmark of an "aware" community. You have NOT played MMOs/FPSs at all if you think that the skill system in GW is not the best yet.
I've played DAoC, Diablo, L2, SB, SWG, WoW for at least 6 months each, PvPed hardcore straight through in every one of them and I call BS on your statement.
Don't let your head hit the door on your way out.
But...after a few hours, one notices that every 2nd post in this thread was being fielded by our resident thread troll.
Lions arch PvP. 
And here is this person kicking and screaming. Get into serious GvG and prepare to get your behind whipped red.
So says someone who's fighting at Lion's Arch and is newb enough to think that's GW PvP.
But will you get through the idiot trap ?
And by the way, Mr Algren Troll, you declared that you were leaving for CS and proceed to post 34 out of the 82 posts in this thread repeating your Lions-Arch-newb-PvP b1tching in a for-next loop ?
You sir, should eat more carrots.
My name is Toxin Fever and I approve this message.
A third of people compare apples to oranges and act indignant when told they are not the same thing. Sing-sing anyone ?
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Originally Posted by Aaaaagh
So I play this game for a good long time, many hours, many characters.
one damage spell is almost the same as the next, one attack much like another. |
I've played DAoC, Diablo, L2, SB, SWG, WoW for at least 6 months each, PvPed hardcore straight through in every one of them and I call BS on your statement.
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Originally Posted by Algren Cole
GW PvP is a freakin joke...
PvP = Counter Strike. I go back to playing counter strike....because PvP WORKS with counter strike. |
But...after a few hours, one notices that every 2nd post in this thread was being fielded by our resident thread troll.
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Originally Posted by Algren Cole
There was no need for me to do anything but click ignite arrows and Duel Shot/Power Shot until everyone was dead....THAT'S THE PROBLEM!
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Originally Posted by Algren Cole
Like I said the team I was on won 7 or 8 straight at Lions Arch without ever talking to eachother. We all just ran out and started attacking
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Originally Posted by Algren Cole
I love Guild Wars....it's a really really good PvE game. so no...I don't think it sucks. I think it's value as a PvE is quite good....It's value as a PvP is quite poor.
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Originally Posted by Algren Cole
Like i said when I get to the HoH i'll let you know if it changes my opinion of GW PvP...though I doubt it will.
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And by the way, Mr Algren Troll, you declared that you were leaving for CS and proceed to post 34 out of the 82 posts in this thread repeating your Lions-Arch-newb-PvP b1tching in a for-next loop ?
You sir, should eat more carrots.
My name is Toxin Fever and I approve this message.
Algren Cole
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Originally Posted by Aug
Aren't their 'recharge' times in CS? Like reloading a gun? Some weapons have much higher and more frequent recharge times than others, don't they? Don't you have to reload a shotgun after every couple shots?
Also, can you unload a whole clip of your Colt in 0 time? Can you stab/swing your knife as fast as you can click the button? No. GW is not as fast paced as CS. I agree with that statement. But GW is not turn based. |
that's an entirely different discussion...if you can't see that GW is turn based that's fine...I'm not going to argue a games symantecs.
OneArmedScissor
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Originally Posted by Algren Cole
I'm actually quite good at chess....and used to play it quite often.....I just no longer enjoy it
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What's your USCF/FIDE rating?
OneArmedScissor
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Originally Posted by Algren Cole
that's an entirely different discussion...if you can't see that GW is turn based that's fine...I'm not going to argue a games symantecs.
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It's exactly the same. If there were no recharge times, etc. People would just spam the most damage spells/skills constantly.
If there were no reloading time, etc. for the AWAP, people would use it constantly as well.
Algren Cole
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Originally Posted by Terminal
In this thread we have the classic mix of the clueless and the bored-with-nothing-to-do-but-post-on-a-subject-i-know-nothing-about.
A third of people compare apples to oranges and act indignant when told they are not the same thing. Sing-sing anyone ? Lying at least once in 2 lines and geting 3 pages of responses is the hallmark of an "aware" community. You have NOT played MMOs/FPSs at all if you think that the skill system in GW is not the best yet. I've played DAoC, Diablo, L2, SB, SWG, WoW for at least 6 months each, PvPed hardcore straight through in every one of them and I call BS on your statement. Don't let your head hit the door on your way out. But...after a few hours, one notices that every 2nd post in this thread was being fielded by our resident thread troll. Lions arch PvP. So says someone who's fighting at Lion's Arch and is newb enough to think that's GW PvP. But will you get through the idiot trap ? And by the way, Mr Algren Troll, you declared that you were leaving for CS and proceed to post 34 out of the 82 posts in this thread repeating your Lions-Arch-newb-PvP b1tching in a for-next loop ? You sir, should eat more carrots. My name is Toxin Fever and I approve this message. |
Terminal
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Originally Posted by Algren Cole
that's an entirely different discussion...if you can't see that GW is turn based that's fine...I'm not going to argue a games symantecs.
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Algren Cole
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Originally Posted by Terminal
It's semantics, not "symantecs". You've been running too many virus scans and not enough reading.
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OneArmedScissor
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Originally Posted by Algren Cole
that's an entirely different discussion...if you can't see that GW is turn based that's fine...I'm not going to argue a games symantecs.
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The simple fact that I can move at all times in the game (unless hendered by a spell, etc.) and that other people have the ability to move continously throughout the game without pause makes me believe it's not a turn-based game.
You are wrong
Algren Cole
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Originally Posted by OneArmedScissor
Have you ever played a turn-based game?
The simple fact that I can move at all times in the game (unless hendered by a spell, etc.) and that other people have the ability to move continously throughout the game without pause makes me believe it's not a turn-based game. You are wrong |
yes..i've played many turn based games...being able to move does not mean it isn't turn based...having a turn means it's turn based.
you get a turn you use your skill
you get another turn you recharge your skill
you get another turn you recharge your skill some more
you get another turn you fire an arrow
you get another turn and use power shot
you get another turn and recharge power shot
you get another turn and fire another arrow
you get antoher turn and use a different skill
it's still turn based...even if some of your turns do nothing(or null)...you're still confined to turns.
OneArmedScissor
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Originally Posted by Algren Cole
sorry I had friends in high school...I had no inspiration to be rated by the United States Chess Federation...
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Sorry to disappoint you, but I play in chess tournaments and make money at it. But at the same time, I go to clubs, party, drink, skateboard, play guitar, play on a paintball team, etc.
Stop making excuses as to why you suck.
Aug
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Originally Posted by Algren Cole
yes..i've played many turn based games...being able to move does not mean it isn't turn based...having a turn means it's turn based.
you get a turn you use your skill you get another turn you recharge your skill you get another turn you recharge your skill some more you get another turn you fire an arrow you get another turn and use power shot you get another turn and recharge power shot you get another turn and fire another arrow you get antoher turn and use a different skill it's still turn based...even if some of your turns do nothing(or null)...you're still confined to turns. |
You get a turn you use your gun
you get another turn you use your gun again
you get another turn and reload your gun
you get another turn and switch to your knife
you get another turn and swing your knife
you get another turn and swing your knife
...
Same thing. I really fail to see any difference.
All you did was identify every point in which you had the opportunity to take an action, and declared it a turn.
Is GW turn based because the firing of a bow/staff/wand/sword is automated? Would you be happier with a longer animation and the requirement to press a button every time you attacked?
Algren Cole
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Originally Posted by OneArmedScissor
I'm glad playing chess means you have no frends. Brilliant logic once again.
Sorry to disappoint you, but I play in chess tournaments and make money at it. But at the same time, I go to clubs, party, drink, skateboard, play guitar, play on a paintball team, etc. Stop making excuses as to why you suck. |
so because I didn't play in tournaments I must suck....and that's brilliant logic to you?
Spyle
There is a lot of luck involved in GW also..
Weapons have damage ranges, no amount of skill will make you hit for max dmg each time.
Many items give a % chance to do this that and the other, again, out of your control. No amount of skill will make those things take affect each time.
In the end I think it was a very good attempt by A-net, and hopefully another - truely skill based - RPG game will stem from it in the future.
Weapons have damage ranges, no amount of skill will make you hit for max dmg each time.
Many items give a % chance to do this that and the other, again, out of your control. No amount of skill will make those things take affect each time.
In the end I think it was a very good attempt by A-net, and hopefully another - truely skill based - RPG game will stem from it in the future.
Algren Cole
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Originally Posted by Aug
And how is this different from Counter Strike, exactly?
You get a turn you use your gun you get another turn you use your gun again you get another turn and reload your gun you get another turn and switch to your knife you get another turn and swing your knife you get another turn and swing your knife ... Same thing. I really fail to see any difference. All you did was identify every point in which you had the opportunity to take an action, and declared it a turn. |
nevermind...it's really not worth it.
OneArmedScissor
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Originally Posted by Algren Cole
yes..i've played many turn based games...being able to move does not mean it isn't turn based...having a turn means it's turn based.
you get a turn you use your skill you get another turn you recharge your skill you get another turn you recharge your skill some more you get another turn you fire an arrow you get another turn and use power shot you get another turn and recharge power shot you get another turn and fire another arrow you get antoher turn and use a different skill it's still turn based...even if some of your turns do nothing(or null)...you're still confined to turns. |
If you're labeling this as a "turn", then everything in the universe is turn-based, based off your logic.
There is no game pausing for someone else to execute his/her turn.
The things you label as "turns" are nothing more than simple actions.
I guess taking a step constitutes as taking a turn then?
I'm gonna go take a turn and get a beer.
I can't wait for what your "turn" reveals.
Algren Cole
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Originally Posted by OneArmedScissor
There is no turn because there is no defined amount of time the turn lasts.
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Aug
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Originally Posted by Algren Cole
nevermind...it's really not worth it.
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JoDiamonds
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Originally Posted by Algren Cole
you wait 5 seconds for this skill to recharge...you wait 2 seconds to use this skill...you fire 1 arrow every 1.75 seconds...THIS IS TURN BASED...the 'turn' is your skills recharging...or the time it takes you to swing an axe...or the waiting period while you fire arrows......just because it's not the same turn based system that Final Fantasy uses doesn't mean it's not turn based.
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There are a couple of games that fake being real time over a turn based system. These include Neverwinter Nights and Wizardry 8, for instance. While you give orders in real time, there is a synchronized "turn" happening the whole while. It doesn't matter when you give a character an order to attack, they won't do it until their "turn" comes.
GuildWars is, by this traditional and fairly widely accepted definition, absolutely a real time game, not turn based. If you really want to prevent the enemy elementalist from casting Meteor Shower, you can sit and wait until you see him doing it (which is all just based on when he actually clicked, not based on any kind of synchronization with a turn system). Then you can cast your counterspell or knockdown or whatever, and thus stop the really nasty spell from going off.
Also, regardless of the "times" used that the player needs to wait for using skills, that doesn't make it turn based. You can freely wait whatever "real time" you want before taking your next action. There's no concept of a turn. neither underneath the hood nor explicitly to the player, just of time passing. This is unlike NVM, for instance, which is absolutely just faking it.
I agree that arguing semantics is pretty stupid, but there is a commonly accepted definition of turn based games, and Guild Wars doesn't fit in it.
Spyle
Oh and GW is not turn-based.. Anyone who says that obviously have never played a real turn-based game.
OneArmedScissor
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Originally Posted by Algren Cole
so because I didn't play in tournaments I must suck....and that's brilliant logic to you?
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Yet, you imply that people who play chess have no friends based off some stupid stereotype.
No, I just know you suck. That's all I'm saying.
JoDiamonds
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Originally Posted by OneArmedScissor
Chess is the most popular game in the world and it's been around for over 1,000 years. It's mind numbing probably because you suck at it and get owned by patzers all the time.
People who don't understand chess should not bash it by any means. |
Chess IS kind of boring, and I played tournament chess for years.
People who don't understand that not liking something is ok shouldn't bash people who don't like it. ;)
Aug
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Originally Posted by Algren Cole
there IS a defined amount of time...each skill has a defined amount of time....would it be fair if you could use your elite skill without recharge...no it wouldn't be fair at all...but the recharge IS the turn.
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Certainly you can setup your skill bar in such a way that the game feels turn based. You can equip all 20+s recharge skills, and declare that your 'turn' involves activating all 8 skills every 20 seconds. That doesn't mean that my turn is structured in the same way. I might (and often do) have multiple skills that have 0-4s recharge times. How can a turn based game work off players having different duration turns? It can't. GW is not turn based.
Rieselle
I know it's so tempting to take down this guy and make him admit that he's stupid - but let's face it - either he's stupid enough not to notice, or he's smart and just having fun inciting flames.
Either way, I wish people would just plain ignore threads that end up becoming like this, personal attacks and arguments over spelling, arguments over semantics, arguments over personal preferences.
Instead, why don't people pay more attention to my entertaining, well-thought out, well meaning posts in the Sanitarium? :P
Check out "Special Death Effects", for more FUN :P
PS. My 2 cents: I wish GW didn't use the word "skill" since often people associate that with manual skill - hand eye coordination, aiming, reflexes, etc.
GW, like many other slower paced games, like RTS's that aren't from Blizzard, like most RPGs, rewards "thought", "planning", and "knowledge."
CS is one-dimensional & boring - I actually preferred HL deathmatch much more - you could set mines, shoot around corners with the octopus gun, use the "charge-up-and-fire-a-big-hit" laser, use homing rockets, or the little bugs that jump around and kill people - there are OPTIONs to WIDELY vary your play style in a game like that.
Games like CS have but two dimension of skill to them: How well you know and run the maps, and how well you can aim. Quake 3 adds another dimension - how well you can lead targets with rockets.
Games like RTS's, fighting games, GW, offer many more dimensions: Resource management, multitasking, knowledge of the game, combo ability vs. dodging ability etc, planning, etc. Some people prefer a "purer" game, like CS, whereas I like complex games where there are many many different factors to victory.
Either way, I wish people would just plain ignore threads that end up becoming like this, personal attacks and arguments over spelling, arguments over semantics, arguments over personal preferences.
Instead, why don't people pay more attention to my entertaining, well-thought out, well meaning posts in the Sanitarium? :P
Check out "Special Death Effects", for more FUN :P
PS. My 2 cents: I wish GW didn't use the word "skill" since often people associate that with manual skill - hand eye coordination, aiming, reflexes, etc.
GW, like many other slower paced games, like RTS's that aren't from Blizzard, like most RPGs, rewards "thought", "planning", and "knowledge."
CS is one-dimensional & boring - I actually preferred HL deathmatch much more - you could set mines, shoot around corners with the octopus gun, use the "charge-up-and-fire-a-big-hit" laser, use homing rockets, or the little bugs that jump around and kill people - there are OPTIONs to WIDELY vary your play style in a game like that.
Games like CS have but two dimension of skill to them: How well you know and run the maps, and how well you can aim. Quake 3 adds another dimension - how well you can lead targets with rockets.
Games like RTS's, fighting games, GW, offer many more dimensions: Resource management, multitasking, knowledge of the game, combo ability vs. dodging ability etc, planning, etc. Some people prefer a "purer" game, like CS, whereas I like complex games where there are many many different factors to victory.
OneArmedScissor
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Originally Posted by Aug
It's not worth it because the direction of your argument led you to a direct contradiction. Of course it's not worth it for you to prove yourself wrong. I already did that for you.
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The sheer fact that you make this silly accusation deems the responsibility on you to prove that it is a turn-based game.
So far, I've yet to see any evidence to support this claim. And I'm fairly certain most people would agree with me on this and that you're a complete fool.