Dye Farmers - Presearing, Something should be done. - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

aron searle

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

Mo/

09 Nov 2005 at 21:26 - 82

Quote:

- How long does it take a newbie character to earn 500 gold? Probably an hour or so in pre-searing. (Items just aren't worth very much there.)

- How long does it take an experienced character to earn 5000 gold? Probably an hour or so in post-searing. (That's how long it takes me. I dunno about the rest of you.)

True, but what has that got to do with scamming (ish) newbies?

Quote:

Let he or she who is without sin cast the first stone. (What's this? I don't see any rocks flying.)

Throws stone :P

Argentus

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Nov 2005

09 Nov 2005 at 21:37 - 83

Again, you are passing judgement. And you people are splitting hairs as well.

Why is it only ok to make a profit off someone who knows exactly what is going on, and somehow immoral to make a profit off of an ignorant person? This happens constantly in the real world. Somehow you people feel that things are different in a video game?

I smell hypocrisy.

Argentus

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Nov 2005

09 Nov 2005 at 21:45 - 84

Aron,

500 gold in pre vs 5000 gold in post. Money now or money later. Either way, it takes roughly the same amount of effort to earn it the old fashioned way depending on where you are in the game. Now whether a player knows the value of black dye or not, they still got what seemed like a good deal at the time, otherwise they wouldn't have agreed to the trade in the first place. So what's the big deal?

If you sell your black dye in pre-searing for 500 gold and find out later you could have gotten 5000 if you had waited, so what? I can just go earn that 5000 gold by adventuring now that I'm in post and I don't have to look back at my past mistake and curse the name of that 'scammer' who tricked me into selling my precious commodity for pennies instead of dollars.

Why are you blaming these people? Is it their fault for taking advantage of a business opportunity, or is it the fault of the people who created this opportunity in the first place?

snapp

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2005

W/

09 Nov 2005 at 21:50 - 85

yeah it's also hypocrytical to be against MURDER in the real world then get on GW and PVP and kill your opponents right?

of course things are different in video games, this isn't a paint store, if it was as hard for home depot to get black paint as it is to get a black dye drop you can be sure black paint would cost a lot more.

The point is these newbies are being scammed and it is wrong, thats not to say it isn't going to happen anyway, but trying to justify it as being similiar to the real world is a worthless argument. I have a friend that played his first char and picked up a black, he saw it was worth 1 gold and dropped it on his next mission to make room for something else. The ignorance is the problem and Anet should come up with a way to inform the ignorant.

Sofonisba

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

Tucson, AZ

The Black Hand Gang [BHG] and The Black Helm Gang [BHeG]

09 Nov 2005 at 21:51 - 86

/throws stone

I never trade with real people, but I have been known to give stuff away from time to time. "Free" is a hard concept for some people to grasp, so occasionally they will have offered something in return for what I'm trying to get rid of. I'll cancel the transaction, reiterate "free" and open the trade window again... *gasp* even if it would have benefited me financially *gasp*.

Many of you think it's about the dyes. Or the money. You are dead WRONG. It's about sort of an abstract concept: It's about being an a-hole vs being halfway decent. Whichever you choose to be, up to you of course.

AncientPC

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2005

Ascalon 1

W/R

09 Nov 2005 at 21:52 - 87

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

And like I said, their is a difference between being new and being stupid, or maybe you just like to feel false sense of superiorority?

You're correct, there is a difference.

New players should take it upon themselves to find the true value of items. A person who doesn't and trades stuff away is stupid.

Here's an example, I meet Bob in a card shop who bought a pack of baseball cards. I buy a card off of him for $5, turn right around and sell it for $100. It is neither my responsibility nor the shop owner's to tell the Bob how much the card is worth.

You're blaming the buyers when you should be blaming the sellers for their own stupidity.

It is not A.net's (or the government's) job to correct people of their own ignorance.

Epinephrine

Master of Beasts

Join Date: Mar 2005

Ottawa, Canada

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

09 Nov 2005 at 21:52 - 88

Seems like weak justifications for the dye trade.

Quote:

Why is it only ok to make a profit off someone who knows exactly what is going on, and somehow immoral to make a profit off of an ignorant person? This happens constantly in the real world. Somehow you people feel that things are different in a video game?

It's immoral in both worlds. We have a way to act against it here, while it's much aharder to in real life. I can't just put a fairness trader in downtown New York to fix the corruption, but I can sure as heck as for one in GW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AncientPC

You're correct, there is a difference.

New players should take it upon themselves to find the true value of items. A person who doesn't and trades stuff away is stupid.

They think they have the value - the game has merchants, who offer more for better items. This leads them to believe the item has no value, since the experience that they have suggests that there is a correlation between an item' value and the merchant price. ANet's system almost deliberately robs them, by misinforming them of the value while more correctly indicating a value for othe objects. Once that system has developed some trust (a better sword sells for more) the one gold for the dye is an obvious signal of its lack of value.

AncientPC

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2005

Ascalon 1

W/R

09 Nov 2005 at 21:57 - 89

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Seems like weak justifications for the dye trade.

It's immoral in both worlds. We have a way to act against it here, while it's much aharder to in real life. I can't just put a fairness trader in downtown New York to fix the corruption, but I can sure as heck as for one in GW.

Making money off ignorant people is how our society works, it is not immoral. Everytime I walk in to Best Buy, I think how stupid it is for someone to pay the tech department $100 to install a hard drive on a computer--a process that takes 15 minutes.

But you know what? They're not paying only for the installation, they're paying for the knowledge of those employees. If they weren't ignorant to how a computer works, they'd save the money by doing it themselves.

Information is money, and those who choose not to do research by themselves have no one else to blame.

If a guy walks into a dealership and buys a car for $25,000 that he could've gotten for $20,000 elsewhere, is it the dealership's fault? No.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

They think they have the value - the game has merchants, who offer more for better items. This leads them to believe the item has no value, since the experience that they have suggests that there is a correlation between an item' value and the merchant price. ANet's system almost deliberately robs them, by misinforming them of the value while more correctly indicating a value for othe objects. Once that system has developed some trust (a better sword sells for more) the one gold for the dye is an obvious signal of its lack of value.

Merchants do not reflect the accurate value of an item and they never will (because of flavor of the month, individual dependent, etc).

Even in pre-searing there are people buying leather belts or whatever for higher than merchant price, and they should make that correlation to dyes. Or maybe they don't know and sell for 200g. Either way, tough luck.

aron searle

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

Mo/

09 Nov 2005 at 22:00 - 90

Quote:

New players should take it upon themselves to find the true value of items. A person who doesn't and trades stuff away is stupid.

Not really.

This is a game, some people treat it as such and so do not spend time researching something before they do it, but instead trust what they see or the person they are trading with.

This does NOT make them stupid, just makes them different from you.

Calling people stupid because they dont play your way is immature.

AncientPC

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2005

Ascalon 1

W/R

09 Nov 2005 at 22:09 - 91

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

Not really.

This is a game, some people treat it as such and so do not spend time researching something before they do it, but instead trust what they see or the person they are trading with.

This does NOT make them stupid, just makes them different from you.

Calling people stupid because they dont play your way is immature.

Lemme reduce this argument into a single belief:
I do not respect people who expect help from others, and then complain when they don't receive any.

This applies to both the real world and the virtual world.

By the way, using the "it's just a game" reasoning is not a valid argument. I can argue the same thing for the other side: It's just a game, who cares if they get ripped off some virtual money.

Calling someone stupid because they're stupid is not immature, it is a statement. Immaturity implies an undeveloped thought and my arguments have been better argued throughout this topic.

pyrohex

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2005

09 Nov 2005 at 22:16 - 92

Maybe everything in the world should operate on American prices and American currency. That way, everyone gets the same price - whether they live in Africa, or China, or the US, and no one gets ripped off.

/sarcasm

Whether you support, condemn, or indifferent doesn't matter. Rhetoric and moralizing on a forum won't do much to help those poor victims of fraud. Get off your ass and do something, if you hate it so much. If you support it, or don't care - well, do whatever.

My God, think of all the noobs suffering as you reply!

Sofonisba

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

Tucson, AZ

The Black Hand Gang [BHG] and The Black Helm Gang [BHeG]

09 Nov 2005 at 22:23 - 93

Then lengths people go to, to justify their greed.

There ARE laws in real life which apply here.

Gas stations still have buyers when they are blatantly price gouging; does that make it right? Or legal? Or is it just business, and bully for them?

You are wearing a nice ring you inherited from Great Aunt Myrtle. You say, "Meh, I like this ring but I don't really need it." A man overhears you, walks up to you and says, "What a nice piece of cut glass, can I have it? I'll give you $25 for your trouble."

"Wow," you think, "I'll never have this chance again." It turns out he's a diamond dealer, it's a flawless diamond and the dealer can now retire. Right? Legal? Just business?

***
pyrohex: Why discuss anything on a forum? Why are you here, if your opinion doesn't matter?

AncientPC

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2005

Ascalon 1

W/R

09 Nov 2005 at 22:34 - 94

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sofonisba

Then lengths people go to, to justify their greed.

Greed is the basic human trait that drives capitalism.

Quote:

There ARE laws in real life which apply here.

All in game "laws" are stated right here:
http://www.guildwars.com/legal/

Quote:

Gas stations still have buyers when they are blatantly price gouging; does that make it right? Or legal? Or is it just business, and bully for them?

Regulated industry. Gas is necessary for our real life economy, dyes are not necessary for in game economy.

Quote:

You are wearing a nice ring you inherited from Great Aunt Myrtle. You say, "Meh, I like this ring but I don't really need it." A man overhears you, walks up to you and says, "What a nice piece of cut glass, can I have it? I'll give you $25 for your trouble."

"Wow," you think, "I'll never have this chance again." It turns out he's a diamond dealer, it's a flawless diamond and the dealer can now retire. Right? Legal? Just business?

Completely legal.

pyrohex

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2005

09 Nov 2005 at 22:45 - 95

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sofonisba

pyrohex: Why discuss anything on a forum? Why are you here, if your opinion doesn't matter?

I think you'll notice that my statement is not universal - it's specifically for this thread. The extent of this thread's substance is to call attention to the matter, and nothing more. What happens - new players being told they can get 7k for their black dyes in post searing - or not, depends on what you do after reading what you've seen here.

If you suggest that the practice is so despicable, go do something about it. Sitting in the forum arguing whether the practice is justified or not won't do a thing. Hate it? Spread the word.

Don't preach to me, or anyone else if you won't get down in the dirt yourself.

Allow me to indulge myself, and quote here part of my previous post:

Quote:

My God, think of all the noobs suffering as you reply!

aron searle

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

Mo/

09 Nov 2005 at 22:54 - 96

Quote:

Making money off ignorant people is how our society works, it is not immoral. Everytime I walk in to Best Buy, I think how stupid it is for someone to pay the tech department $100 to install a hard drive on a computer--a process that takes 15 minutes.

Well then the problem is your attitude.

You think its ok to call people stupid becasue they dont do it your way.

Sofonisba

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

Tucson, AZ

The Black Hand Gang [BHG] and The Black Helm Gang [BHeG]

09 Nov 2005 at 23:01 - 97

Quote:

Originally Posted by pyrohex

If you suggest that the practice is so despicable, go do something about it. Sitting in the forum arguing whether the practice is justified or not won't do a thing. Hate it? Spread the word.

Don't preach to me, or anyone else if you won't get down in the dirt yourself.

I give up. People who use the "capitalism" buzzword to weasel out of being a human being with ethics, there's no talking to them.

pyrohex, thanks for paying attention. I did state when I was in presearing I would try and prevent these types of scam. This is the proper forum to discuss this issue; how else will the "noobs" do their "research" to become informed consumers, unless we keep bumping this thread?

AncientPC

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2005

Ascalon 1

W/R

09 Nov 2005 at 23:12 - 98

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

Well then the problem is your attitude.

You think its ok to call people stupid becasue they dont do it your way.

Apparently calling people stupid offends you, whoop dee do. Good job on side stepping my arguments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sofonisba

I give up. People who use the "capitalism" buzzword to weasel out of being a human being with ethics, there's no talking to them.

Humans are inherently evil, and thus have no ethics. That is why we have government and laws. Captialism is merely using greed as a driving force and that is not a bad thing (when held in check).

Have you ever visited a socialist country? Do you realise how inefficient and unmotivated workers are when they have nothing to gain by working harder?

Quote:

pyrohex, thanks for paying attention. I did state when I was in presearing I would try and prevent these types of scam. This is the proper forum to discuss this issue; how else will the "noobs" do their "research" to become informed consumers, unless we keep bumping this thread?

I applaud your sentiment and effort, you're doing a good thing. However I believe such actions merely teach people to become even more dependent on others rather than self-reliance.

Don Zardeone

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

09 Nov 2005 at 23:48 - 99

This is interesting and boring at the same time. Imo, it is ok to do that "scam", but only in gw. I myself wouldn't do it, I'd be informing noobs. Still, if newcomers knew that a black dye can sell for 7500g...

Vial of dye (black) drops for Newcomer Jake!
Newcomer Jake: WOOOOT 7500g WOOOT!!!!!!
Newcomer Barney: WTF I KILLED THAT MONSTER!!!! NO FAIR
Newcomer Jake: well it dropped for me, i'm stinkin rich now, bye rofl
Newcomer Barney: grrrrr, HACKER
Newcomer Jake: sorry i don't waste my time with the common folk...
Newcomer Jake shoos you away
Newcomer Jake starts dancing
General chat Newcomer Barney: JAKE IS HACKR, BAN JAKE, HAKKKK!!!! (spammedx50)

You really want to let newcomers know that other newcomers can get "rich" by being lucky? (7K is filthy rich to a real noob)

What if someone isn't lucky and keeps getting drops worth 1-6 gold? He'll be pissed when he sees others getting black dyes. Especially if those people are in his party...

In many mmorpgs (don't care if anyone says that gw is not mmorpg) I've seen many people quit simply because someone else stole their drop. I myself once almost quit too but continued playing because my guildleader told me that it wasn't a big deal after all... but I had a guildleader, many players don't have anyone.

If Anet wants to lose players and real money, they'll put a dye trader in pre...

Also, imo, effort should be rewarded, not luck. In fact, there is no luck, there is only the force. But some are gifted with the force and others are not. Is it then fair to allow some to get really "rich" while others have to find and sell at least 1000 lowtech items to make the same money?

Removing black dyes and runes from pre might be better then X.x

Don't say i'm stupid, I already know that

chris_nin00

Dun dun dun

Join Date: Aug 2005

Reddit Guild

R/

09 Nov 2005 at 23:55 - 100

Like they always say....
You're not scamming if the scammed don't know about it.

Or
You're not scammed if you don't know the scammer was scamming you.

Enough words for today... I know its too much for you guys.

Argentus

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Nov 2005

10 Nov 2005 at 01:57 - 101

Let's get one thing straight...

If I offer 500 gold for a black dye, and someone agrees to sell me their black dye for my price, I am not scamming anyone. I am simply bidding for their item, and if they like my bid, hooray for me. I am not evil or malicious or being fraudulent in any way. I am just conducting business.

On the other hand, if I tell newbies that black dye is not worth very much and that I'll be doing them a big favor by giving them a generous 500 gold for theirs, then I'm lying, and this action would be considered a scam.

So before you go around judging everyone (all you rock throwing hypocrits), saying how immoral people are for buying black dye in pre-searing, perhaps you should recognize the difference between an actual scam and simply doing business. Not everyone who buys dye in pre is doing so to rip people off.

I'm not sure what's worse: The scammers, or the 'holier than thou' crowd on the forums who cast judgement on everyone who does something they disagree with. Having an opinion is one thing, but asking that A.net take action against people who are not really doing anything wrong is just overreacting, if you ask me.

The merchant is the only one who knows the TRUE value of dye. It's 1 gold for a very good reason. Dye serves no practical purpose, so why is everyone making such a big deal out of this?

pyrohex

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2005

10 Nov 2005 at 03:18 - 102

Quote:

pyrohex, thanks for paying attention.

My mistake, I must have missed it - I skipped to page 4 after getting to page 2.

heist23

Journeyman

Join Date: Jul 2005

R/Mo

10 Nov 2005 at 03:35 - 103

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argentus

Let's get one thing straight...

If I offer 500 gold for a black dye, and someone agrees to sell me their black dye for my price, I am not scamming anyone. I am simply bidding for their item, and if they like my bid, hooray for me. I am not evil or malicious or being fraudulent in any way. I am just conducting business.

you're offering to buy a black dye for 500 gold, which is about .1% of the actual value of black dye. i'm assuming that you KNOW that black dye is worth several platinum, so you are in effect scamming a newbie out of his money. lowballing like this when the other player doesn't know better is malicious, in my opinion.

Argentus

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Nov 2005

10 Nov 2005 at 03:48 - 104

Heist23,

Quote:

you're offering to buy a black dye for 500 gold, which is about .1% of the actual value of black dye.

If you can sell black dye to the Dye Trader in post for 5000 gold, then 500 gold would be 10% of the value, not .1%. (Geez!)

Following your logic, any time I offer less than the going rate for any item, I'm scamming someone. That simply doesn't make sense. To say that I am being malicious just proves my point that you people are overreacting.

calamitykell

Banned

Join Date: Aug 2005

N.Y.C.

10 Nov 2005 at 04:03 - 105

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argentus

Heist23,

If you can sell black dye to the Dye Trader in post for 5000 gold, then 500 gold would be 10% of the value, not .1%. (Geez!)

Following your logic, any time I offer less than the going rate for any item, I'm scamming someone. That simply doesn't make sense. To say that I am being malicious just proves my point that you people are overreacting.

No, again, you're missing the point.

If the seller doesn't know that black dye can get them 5k post-searing, and you tell them you'll buy for 500g in pre-sear, that's malicious.

If the seller does know that black dye can get them 5k post-searing, and you tell them you'll buy for 500g, that's not malicious. (They'll either sell it to you and not care, or refuse to sell at that ridiculously low price.)

If you don't tell them "It's worth 5k in post-sear, but I'll give you 500g for it", chances are you've just scammed someone.

Argentus

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Nov 2005

10 Nov 2005 at 04:11 - 106

Quote:

... chances are you've just scammed someone.

So now you're claiming that it's possible to unintentionally scam people?

How can you claim this is malicious if it's unintentional? Malice without intent? Oh, please. You people will say anything to make a big deal out of this subject.

Alone)

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2005

Campbell, California

Legio Imortalii

W/Mo

10 Nov 2005 at 04:13 - 107

Each to his or her own. I read on the first page on this about something like who is to judge others? Obviously, ourselves. No one can force us not to, or to go ahead and do it. You can argue on both sides of it. Whether it be a self benefit, or something else. Some can say that it's teaching new players how to deal with it later. On the other, it produces more people to try and take advantage of others.

But I view this as...this. What one does in a game, COULD show what one does in real life, or, feels like doing anyways. If one takes advantage of another, this is game, we can't stop him or her. But this creates a situation that can be worsen over time. One COULD just say to the person who has the black dye, hey, save it and sell it for over 5plat when you get later in the game, and thus that can also create a chain effect which will lead to better, honorable players.

Anyone ever watched the movie Pay It Forward?

Good night.

Argentus

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Nov 2005

10 Nov 2005 at 04:14 - 108

From www.dictionary.com

malice (n).
1. A desire to harm others or to see others suffer; extreme ill will or spite.
2. The intent, without just cause or reason, to commit a wrongful act that will result in harm to another.

How can you claim that buying cheap black dye is malicious???

Mumoto

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2005

The Netherlands

N/Mo

10 Nov 2005 at 04:20 - 109

Quote:

Originally Posted by aeroclown

I don't know if its juts me, but more and more, I see players coming into pre searing ascalon and dye farming. They create a new charcter buy all the black dye they can and ever color they can from newbies who don't know any better and then take it back to sell in post searing ascalon.

Something needs to be done about it. I think its wrong to scam newbies in this manner. It hasn't happened to me personally, but I just can't stand seeing it done to people who are new to the game. Thoughts ?

I know what you mean, but you shouldn't have posted this, the people on this forum are asses, they don't care as long as they get gold they don't care if newbies are frauded.

Alone)

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2005

Campbell, California

Legio Imortalii

W/Mo

10 Nov 2005 at 04:21 - 110

I have to disagree about people being asses. Not all are.

calamitykell

Banned

Join Date: Aug 2005

N.Y.C.

10 Nov 2005 at 04:27 - 111

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argentus

So now you're claiming that it's possible to unintentionally scam people?

How can you claim this is malicious if it's unintentional? Malice without intent? Oh, please. You people will say anything to make a big deal out of this subject.

I said chances are because there's a chance that they already know the price beforehand, and thus are aware of your ridiculous offer.

Do you have absolutely no comprehension skills whatsoever?

Mumoto

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2005

The Netherlands

N/Mo

10 Nov 2005 at 04:27 - 112

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argentus

Let's get one thing straight...

If I offer 500 gold for a black dye, and someone agrees to sell me their black dye for my price, I am not scamming anyone. I am simply bidding for their item, and if they like my bid, hooray for me. I am not evil or malicious or being fraudulent in any way. I am just conducting business.

On the other hand, if I tell newbies that black dye is not worth very much and that I'll be doing them a big favor by giving them a generous 500 gold for theirs, then I'm lying, and this action would be considered a scam.

So before you go around judging everyone (all you rock throwing hypocrits), saying how immoral people are for buying black dye in pre-searing, perhaps you should recognize the difference between an actual scam and simply doing business. Not everyone who buys dye in pre is doing so to rip people off.

I'm not sure what's worse: The scammers, or the 'holier than thou' crowd on the forums who cast judgement on everyone who does something they disagree with. Having an opinion is one thing, but asking that A.net take action against people who are not really doing anything wrong is just overreacting, if you ask me.

The merchant is the only one who knows the TRUE value of dye. It's 1 gold for a very good reason. Dye serves no practical purpose, so why is everyone making such a big deal out of this?

Just conducting business blablabla, it's still scam.

Scam: A fraudulent business scheme; a swindle.

You are buying it from people that don't know what it's worth is, and instead of helping these poor newbies ... you're thinking let's make profit out of them for your own good.

What kind of person are you....

Scamming is to making more profit out of something by deceiving somebody.

500 gold generous? Wow.. you want a medal or something? I don't call that generous ... giving 500 gold for something worth 7k atleast.

Quote:

The merchant is the only one who knows the TRUE value of dye. It's 1 gold for a very good reason. Dye serves no practical purpose, so why is everyone making such a big deal out of this?

What are you trying to say... that you're doing good with scamming people?

Dude it's a big deal... do you know how hard it is to obtain 8k fast? especially for non-warriors/monks

Why would everyone scam people to get more money if it wasn't that hard to get?

knives

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jun 2005

USA

Grenths Rejects [GR]

Me/

10 Nov 2005 at 04:39 - 113

It is not a scam. If you told the person it was only worth 500 gold, then it would be.
If someone wants to sell their 15% >50% flameberge for 10k, are you going to tell them its worth 100k+? No. I hate people who want to shelter everyone from the truth. Sell your black dyes for 500g, then take that as a lesson well learned and never do it again.

Argentus

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Nov 2005

10 Nov 2005 at 04:41 - 114

I keep seeing all of these extreme terms being thrown about so casually in this thread, like 'fraud' and 'malicious', and yet it would seem that many of you don't bother to read the definition of such words before using them.

Fraud is a deliberate deception. Offering a low price for black dye does not qualify as deception unless you purposely lie to the person you are buying it from. Trying to get a great deal is not fraud, it's just an exercise in free trade.

Malice, as I previously pointed out, requires the intent to do harm to another. How is buying cheap dye intentionally harming anyone? Do you really think those people buying dye in pre-searing are doing it for anything other than profit?

I find it difficult to take any of the responses seriously when so many of you take this matter to an extreme which it is not. The only truly applicable label I've read so far is 'greed' pure and simple. People buy dyes in pre-searing to earn money. A major goal of the PvE side of this game revolves around earning money. So if you play PvE at all, you are (or were) just as guilty of being greedy as anyone else (at some point).

chris_nin00

Dun dun dun

Join Date: Aug 2005

Reddit Guild

R/

10 Nov 2005 at 04:45 - 115

Argentus,
This link debunks your whole argument...
I think.

http://www.bible.com/answers/alying.html

Mumoto

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2005

The Netherlands

N/Mo

10 Nov 2005 at 04:53 - 116

framing people is bad, I've saved somebody from one of those framers ... that guy almost sold it for 100 gold if it wasn't for me telling him that it was worth way more.

Celdor Nailo

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

Mo/E

10 Nov 2005 at 05:00 - 117

fraud. scam. call it what you want. simply put, it's players with at least some experience taking advantage of new players.

if you find someone in pre-searing who will sell you his or her black dye for 500 gold, you know that he or she is very probably new. the black dye isn't what this thread is about. and this thread isn't about people buying items and selling them for more money.

and for those of you who go through life thinking life is about taking advantage of others for your own benefit... i'm at a loss of words.

Savio

Teenager with attitude

Join Date: Jul 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

10 Nov 2005 at 05:25 - 118

Feel free to discuss what the defintion of scamming is; just don't be call each other names. That's my only warning.

Whosaidwhatnow

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Nov 2005

10 Nov 2005 at 05:26 - 119

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrow Whisper

Hey Zeru what's your IGN? I've got a spot on my ignore list for you.

Yeah, I'm sure he'll be devastated that some random GW player, one guy out of a million-plus, who he doesn't have the slightest inclination to even speak to, puts him on his ignore list. Wow. Keep the gloves up!

The the OP: I'm really not a fan of the "something has to be done" post. If "something" has to be done, do it. Don't wait for ArenaNet to step in and play nanny, complaining about it on forums until they "nerf it", just go out and spend all your GW time in pre-searing Ascalon warning newbies of these "scams" which nobody but the most gullible of fools would be had by. If you don't bother to do the slightest bit of research or get a second opinion, in games and in real life, you're going to get screwed. Better that he sells his black dye for 200gp than buys a cubic zirconia ring for his engagement... I'm no scammer and I don't support them, but if you're foolish enough to blindly trust anybody, game or no game, you deserve what comes to you.

That said, I always screw people's scams over when I see them and have a chance... "Selling White Dye = 5k! Selling recipe for White Dye = only 10k!!"... I always post the recipes for free and tell everyone they're welcome. Scammers only exist because people are blind enough to fall for them. It's not like these guys are door-to-door insurance salesmen shilling Volcano Insurance to a kindly old lady in the midwest. Their "prey" knows they're playing a game, with a community-driven economy and should have a fighting chance at combatting these scams from the start. I don't prey on newbies, I always stop and give them advice, I squelch scams where I see them, but its up to the community to put a stop to this, not ArenaNet.

If this gets me onto some whiner's ignore list, great. You probably weren't on my Christmas-card list in the first place.

AncientPC

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2005

Ascalon 1

W/R

10 Nov 2005 at 05:29 - 120

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celdor Nailo

fraud. scam. call it what you want. simply put, it's players with at least some experience taking advantage of new players.

if you find someone in pre-searing who will sell you his or her black dye for 500 gold, you know that he or she is very probably new. the black dye isn't what this thread is about. and this thread isn't about people buying items and selling them for more money.

and for those of you who go through life thinking life is about taking advantage of others for your own benefit... i'm at a loss of words.

I'm at a loss of words that you find one person taking advantage of another (in the free market sense) is so repulsive.

Since when is it my responsibility to educate the other party whenever I'm buying or selling? Is it the government / A.net's responsibility? Must we tell every ignorant person how oblivious they are?

Whosaidwhatnow

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Nov 2005

10 Nov 2005 at 05:43 - 121

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mumoto

Are you forgetting that kids from around 10 years old play this game too? that don't really know what scamming is about? That don't know they're blinded by other people?

Even if people fall for the scammers, it's still not fair, and to blame the victims for their lack of knowledge is crap.

Everyone has been a newbie and if you were scammed and you found out later you wouldn't like it either, even if it's just a game.

Thats probably part of the reason the game says 12+ on the cover. 10 year olds shouldn't be playing this game if you don't want them interacting with 20, 30, 40 and 50 year olds who could have any number of questionable motives. What I said still applies, scams and hustles are a part of life, get used to them in a game where it doesn't matter before you buy a busted-ass time-share on an active faultline.

Anyway I think there's a huge difference between someone getting scammed - ie they get screwed on some trade window technicality, or they pay a runner up front and he absconds with the loot - and someone not knowing how much their item is worth. That's just plain ignorance. Guild Wars states that all dyes are worth 1gp when you pick them up, if something has to change, maybe its that. I don't remember a helpful hint window popping up to tell me to sell my items to their respective traders or I'll be scammed... I just saw 1gp and figured dyes were worthless.

Next, I have been scammed. I've given away items for next to nothing or paid too much. Did I cry about it? Was I blowing smoke out the ears because I "wasted" an hour getting that item? If I thought it was worthless, and I was okay with that, why should it make a difference when I realize it was worth more to someone else? It wasn't worth anything to me, so I got rid of it.

I sell all my items much cheaper than the "norm" because I want to get rid of them, get them out to people who will actually use them... I'm not interested in having a storage box full of useless but "valuable" items so I can spend my time spamming WTS WTS WTS in the major cities until I can milk every last penny out of the economy. I think this oppressive greed is almost as bad as scammers... well maybe not scammers, but swindlers, as someone put it, which again I think are vastly different from one another.