"It's just a game.."

Feelings aren't real when you play a game online. When someone angers you, you are really only angry in the game. When you log out, we all know you completely forget about everything that happened while you were playing, because it's just a game. Making fun of someone should not ever hurt their feelings in game, because those feelings aren't theirs. It's their characters. It should only hurt their character's feelings. That's why, when I get too angry in the game, I have my character punch a wall instead of myself, because the game's not real.


/sarcasm


*edit: Hey, screw you too buddy!!! (j/k)

Dangit, I keep posting don't I? Well, since things have calmed down...
HellRaiser, yes, I admit GLOATING is part of the online gaming community, and there is nothing against that. But, calling someone a derogatory name goes too far in gloating. I can understand the casual, man I'm good, that's just egotistical, and frankly, don't we all have egos. But please, don't call me a "bad word" noob. Just say gg, and get on with it.

Then you all didnt know how to play warcraft III. You had to show dominence in warcraft III. Thats how you gained respect. Nice guys finish last.

After i beat some one terribly i would be like GG noob for waisting my time.

Noob should be part of the english dictionary. Noob is a important word in online gamming.

Actually, the only note of respect you got was your attitude and the nice little avatar by your name in the lobby

People remember the bad attitudes. Plus the avitar thing rocked. I had deathwing.

It's a game, yes, it's a game--but let's compare this game to OTHER games that involve human players, ok? Like, say, any given professional sport, a board game between friends, poker, you name it. In what universe is it just ok to randomly insult/ scam/ be a complete jerk and not expect any consequences BECAUSE you're behaving this way during a GAME?

Only among good friends who know each other would you expect this behavior. In pick-up basketball games, I remember plenty of times I had to hard foul some random kid who thought "smack talk" with strangers was somehow ok; they figured it out quickly, and it's no different than anything in life. A game is fun, but only if the players play THE GAME--and rude behavior is not part of this game or any game except in very specific situations where it's openly accepted, probably among friends.

The arguments I'm hearing from the "it's just a game" people (premises: a death here isn't a real death, it's all just pixels, etc.) aren't exactly WRONG; they're just missing the point of the larger issue. I suspect these people are used to SINGLE player games (video games) and don't quite make the distinction between the game play between those and a MMORP like this where it's NOT just pixels and programs, but people.

GW especially lends itself to this mistake, too, don't you think? We can solo much, if not all, of the game; we have our own instances and NPC teammates; and though some choose to role play, this isn't exactly the most role-playing friendly game out there (it's pretty much just combat). In other words, I understand why so many GW players would fail to recognize the "multi-player" portion of the MMORPH here. It's not an excuse or defense, but I understand.

I will say this: hearing someone say "it's all just pixels"--ignoring the real, flesh and blood players behind those pixels--is to me as wise as saying "it's all just metal, dude" as I crash my car into yours.

Ok guildwars is just a video game. Were nothing is real and people that think its real wont get laid. I said it gg.

Nobody ever said the game was real. The point was the PEOPLE playing the game were real...

And if you think getting "laid" is the most important thing in life, I laugh at you. I'd have to say integrity is more important...but hey, my opinion doesn't matter, because I'll "never get laid"

What part of will and not get laid do you not understand?

You are a pitiful life form, my good sir. It pains me to think there are people like you in the world

Ok, last effort to actually engage Hell Raiser with rhetoric:

It IS a video game. But it IS played by people, live people, real people (getting laid and eveything, believe it or not). It's not either/ or, but to act like anything goes--anything can be said and done because it's all in the context of this game--is completely naive. When players play the game as it's supposed to be played, it's great, it's fun, it's NOT real life. When players think just BECAUSE it's a game they can scam, insult, or generally be asses, in the game but completely disconnected with how the game's played, then they're imposing their real life bad attitude, hurting someone else's experience of the game.

If someone jokes about something IN the game alone, I couldn't care less. Someone joked about my tattoo armor the other night, and that's fine because it's obviously just about my toon (no tattoo armor on me sitting here typing this). If someone dances over my corpse, fine, it's funny because it's an in-game animation. You can poke fun at my in-game name, my ranger pet, etc. See the common denominator? IN-GAME content. Just don't bring up inappropriate non-game comments or behavior.

Don't believe me? Try chatting in the "all" channel all the racist, sexist, and anti-American comments you can muster, and see what happens next. Somehow I'm guessing the mysterious, magical pixels will (somehow) swiftly ban your account and force you back to the single-player games you obviously prefer anyway.

(Wow, why do I get the feeling I'm wasting my time? It's because I am, aren't I? I should have listened to my own original post lol)

Know how you feel veil.

I have read this post from start to here and it comes down to this post for me:

So I ask this,

Who did you scam?

Who did you teach a lesson to?

The other character?

You taught the other "character" a lesson, is that what you are saying?

Because if you are saying that you were teaching the other "player" a lesson, how is that possible? You have made it VERY clear in almost every post that you don't do things to the other "player" you actions and words are ONLY intended for the "characters" you interact with.

I'll also make this statement:

I have met MANY people over the years from "on-line" games and met them in real life and every one of them had an essance of their real self in the characters they portrayed, it says something about YOUR character (the real life one)

Good god! If you look at HellRaiser's post history, you can see that he spammed his way to professor status in 1 day. (Almost entirely in this thread.) I congratulate you on this monumental task, sir. (And by "congratulate you on this monumental task, sir" I mean that I think you should go outside.)

WTF?

Do you think sometimes or just posting?
Thats what you call Real Life also includes this game. If I come to your house and call you some names it as excatly as offending as calling you these name through GW.


That is the problem. Just because you are behind a computer does not make it all virtual.

Please take your time and think about it: there are people on the other side you are talking too. These are not fictional characters. These are real people.

Please take your time and read a usenet netiquette. And then, afterwards, come back to GW.

Of course you do.
It is ME, you call a noob, not a fictional character.
If I call you some mean names in 'RL' would you feel offended? Why?
Take for example: I write you a letter consisting of strong curses about you, your mother, your race, your country etc. Would you feel offended?

Sorry, but YOU need to grow up and see the difference between the internet and RL. The REAL difference not "this is internet" and "this is RL". Just one hint: the difference is not that big. Chatting with someone is similar to talking to someone. The only difference is the way of communication, not communication itself.

I know it is hard to understand, so take your time. Look at the usenet and it's netiquette. You can do it. You can be nice person. It is not hard. Try it at least once, please.

My favorite assinine quote of the thread has to be:
Online insulting shows "dominence"[sic]? Dominance is shown by outmaneuvering/outplaying your opponent and forcing them to give up. Insults only show how small of a human being you really are. I know, from reading this useless thread, that I'm spitting in the wind when I say this, but I'm hoping that someone who thinks you're cool will think again before emulating you.

Think about it. You're in your mom's basement (or wherever you dwell), and one of your acquaintances comes over and starts insulting you, your mom, and your entire family. What do you do to such a cretin? Beat them up? Throw them out? Never speak to them again?

Let's just assume that you are just civilized enought to perform one of the latter two. Why did you do that? Because there are rules in polite society that govern how we interact with another human being. And when someone crosses a line, then those people will be removed from our presence in some fashion or another.

In the same way you've broken both unwritten and written rules, that you agreed to when you signed the EULA, when you installed the game. I truly hope that Blizzard makes a game you can go assert your twisted form of "dominence"[sic] in so that you will not bother decent gamers anymore.

Whether you believe it or not, you are not merely interacting with a character on a computer screen. You are interacting with a human being in control of that pixelated character.

The problem is that we, the decent players, sit in a silent majority while 12 year-olds and their mental equivilents, in the minority, run rampant through our games. We paid just as much as these morons for the game, and we continue to let these fools ruin gameplay. Ignoring them is an option that I'm sure the majority of decent gamers exercize, but these kids should be brought back into line. Someone should report "HellRaiser" for blatantly breaking the agreement that he signed with A-Net, when he installed the game (evidence is all here, on these boards, as well as a confession from "HellRaiser"). If we don't start taking back the games we enjoy from "people" like HR, we will start to lose good gaming online. To be substituted by people like HR, who lack the moral fiber and integrity to play a game as it was meant to be played.

Fairly, and by the rules.

Damn, go to sleep and thread grows to 16 pages. And just like I knew it would, HR didn't change his mind Oh well, it was to be expected. Still :

"Online insulting is who we are, it shows dominence. If i beat you in a 1 on 1 in warcraft III i will taunt you. "
And I will /squelch you. That thing works wonder, I don't play the game because I want to listen to some insults.

"Also when i said the warcraft thing, i didnt do it to make fun of you. Arthas is my favorite warcraft character, he also put people in their places when they ran off with the lip to much."
I don't recall Arthas saying "Who the fark is playing this game" - besides, it was all in RP... Same with Illidan - and they both made some comments directed at player.
Edit: Ah, I just remember, better example would be Vulture from SC
Speaking of which, first you say that online and real world are different, and yet you insist that "insult" from player controlled character and *player* are the same.

"Then you all didnt know how to play warcraft III. You had to show dominence in warcraft III. Thats how you gained respect. Nice guys finish last."
Where exactly you had to show this "dominence"? If playing against bad opponent was a waste of time, than suddenly insulting him was not? By the time you finished typing "noob", AMM would've found you a better opponent. Once again, "it's just a game" and yet you care enough about "wasted time" to insult your opponent. 'Sides, who says "nice guys finish last"? Quite often I got insulted after winning, be it "maphack" or some other junk. Gotta love /squelch.

hm, in answer to the 'can we have RP districts?'
yeah. everyone here decides to always port to say, the last district in thier area group.its usually the quietest,i have noticed.

to 'everyone insults online' hell no! i become more goody goody whenever i get online, unless in im Executioner mode, in which case, you just better not mess with my List, or make sure you have a special on-death incineration plan for your corpse so i cant raise your ass and flog it to a necro-loving son-of-a Vogon ^^

so....perhaps we just ignore insults? hm...depends, dosent it, on who we are and what we are.

Hmm...I think I'm more hostile online than IRL.

Not because I can 'get away with it' or anything, just because people online piss me off more than people IRL do.

And I have no idea if that's still the topic of this thread, skipped the other 279 replies.



Edit: Read some more of the thread.

Guys I'm fairly certain I know HellRaiser from another community (same 12 year old mentality, shitty spelling, 'tough' attitude, way of 'talking', everything) and he's just a jackass where ever he goes. Pay him no mind.

We banned him from that community and I'll bet he eventually gets banned from this one.

Hellraiser, you are one of the people who blame the owner of the house for leaving it unlocked instead of blaming the thief for robbery, aren´t you ?
Even if there is the biggest opportunity to cheat on someone, scam etc., it doesn´t excuse the scammer. He is always guilty no matter what.

"Sorry officer but he LET me kill him. He didn't say 'please don't pull the trigger!' so obviously he wanted to die."

Right...

for the record, when I interact with anyone in any MMO or Virtual Reality on the internet, how you behave ingame says alot about your "personal character traits" of your own real life personality. I have been a player of MMO's a few years now, and YES, there is a direct link between the morals/ethics/character/personality of a toon with the morals/ethics/character/personality of the controlling Player. Only in true Role Playing games is this not the case. Guild Wars IS NOT a true Role Playing game in my humble opinion (sorry, I just don't see the evidence of it within the majority of the player population).

Do you react/respond in a "good" manner ingame? or a "bad" one?

If "good", then I will interact with you, accept your team invites, help you with missions, etc.

If "bad", then I will consider you a Pirate ingame, and in Real Life........I will have nothing to do with you, for as far as I am concerned, you are not trustworthy. period.

"Teaching somebody a lesson" by scamming a player out of a good sword, or insulting some players (or some players character's) Mother are acts I classify as "Bad".

In MMO's such as this, I play characters that desire to combat and defeat Evil (ummm, same as "bad"). You all can figure out whom I will trust....

Nuff said

A note on "netiquette":

-For our younger viewers who shall remain nameless: http://disney.go.com/cybersafety/

Ten Rules for being a Good Netizen

The following rules were proposed by writer Virginia Shea in a book called Netiquette, and they pretty much cover the important things you need to remember to be a good citizen of cyberspace.

1. Remember the human
2. Adhere to the same standards of behaviour on-line that you follow in real life.
3. Know where you are in cyberspace.
4. Respect other people's time and bandwidth.
5. Make yourself look good on-line.
6. Share expert knowledge.
7. Help keep flames under control.
8. Respect other people's privacy.
9. Don't abuse your power.
10. Be forgiving of other people's mistakes.

-taken from http://www.sofweb.vic.edu.au/internet/netiquet.htm

I'd venture that the above referenced rules sum up quite nicely what all of us have been trying to say to HR. The site I noted also has further explanations of each "commandment" so have a good read---just ignore the horrible pink background.

You also have the right to eat Sh*t; feel free to exercise your rights.

In short:

I'm behind a computer and will act like tough shit cause I'm too big of a coward to do it in RL.

OK gang ... here's a metaphor which might help explain this to some of our more stubborn readers.

I'm on a little league team. We're pretty good, and we tend to win a lot of games. Now, when our team wins do we gloat about it, or do we respect the individuals who just went out and put forth their best effort and didn't make it? This is one of the fundamentals which we try to teach young children about competition, and it's called SPORTSMANSHIP ...

In football, are you allowed to do an end zone dance anymore? What happened this past season when Randy Moss pretended to moon the opposing fans in the end zone? PENALTIES AND FINES ... Big Time!!!

I'm not about to try and say that I am holier than thou ... I too have ripped on people when I have had a good performance in an online game ... the difference? I ALREADY KNEW THEM ... and once we were finished we went off and had a beer and celebrated our shared experiences ... therefore no hard feelings because afterwards we knew that it WAS friendly ribbing ... and that we DID have each other's respect ...

When you drop insults to a random stranger online, it's almost the same as a being an innocent caught in a drive-by ... it's random, and you're left wondering why on earth you were hit ... Just because you cannot see or face the person on the other end of the CAT-5 doesn't mean that they're not there ... nor does it mean they are any less of a victim ...

Going back to my sportsmanship metaphor ... I think the online community is still going through it's 'growing up' period, where concepts like this are still very foreign ... why? Well, we don't exactly have umpires or coaches roaming around to call foul on people. However when you think about it, perhaps that's the whole point to threads like this ...

Mods.

Mods that should ban for excessive stupidity. (outside of off topic, of course )

I absolutely agree with you Mistress Eyahl but it's almost pointless to tell people that here. The ones that are the most disgusting and rude with no consideration for others aren't doing it for fun.

They're doing it because they crave attention and even when they know that attention will be negative they'll do it anyway because they'll get more bad attention than they'd get good attention if they did the right thing.

I think Hellraiser needs a hug.

You first.

FACT 1 -- Items in a Video Game have been recognized as having true monetary value.

FACT 2 -- Because these items have now formally been recognized as having a monetary value the time attaining them in game is also considered as having monetary value.

FACT 3- EULA or no EULA if you are defrauded in the US and can prove it through submission of evidence (screenshots, logs from A-Net, etc...) then the person who is found guild of defrauding you can face legal action.

FACT 4 - If the defrauding happened because you broke the EULA you may win in a court case, but your Account will be permanently suspended after the fact by ANet.

It is not as cut and dry simple as it is just a game anymore and there have been court cases where courts of law have forced game developers to give Player Y back Item X. Also as stated very well by Mistress Eyahl here being in a game does not give you the right to do whatever you want because it is a game (Did you know that you could possibly be brought under legal action for what you say in game if it is considered Libel or Defamation of character or if you are in a voice comms environment it could be considered Slander.) Yes it is possible. Basically don't be an ass to people just because you are in a game. It is a poor excuse because what you do in game in my opinion contributes to your overall representation as an individual and it is likely that if you are a complete jerk to people in game then the apple is not far from the tree in the real world.

I'm getting a whiff of hardcore PvE Vs PvP for some reason, not sure why.

One group is an extension of their characters and take world interaction very seriously.
One group are thick skinned highly competitive players where world interaction is about strategy.

Having played both highly competitive team based FPS where trash talking is rampant, and also being in a RP guild where being your character is the norm I can see how these 2 factions colliding would create some tension.

Just 2 cents =P

this is the most asinine bullshit I have ever read....you either need to retake your bar exam or stop talking as if you knew anything about law.

Too bad we're not in Korea, they actually do that shit. Have an entire section of their police force dedicated to gaming crimes.

ya...and that's why korea has one of the highest crime rates in the world...they're wasting officers on video game crimes.

You call my statements into question, but don't actually poke holes in anything stated. Is one fact wrong or all of them? If so how are they wrong? Here is a tip: Be part of the solution rather than the problem.

Fact 1: Online games now are selling items in game for real money. Sony does it for Everquest.

Fact 2: Time is money. Otherwise court cases would not reward persons for lost time at work; communications companies wouldn't give free service or money back for time wasted waiting on service techs...

Fact 3: EULAs are contractual agreements between the gamer and the game owner/service provider. They do not however supercede common law. An example of this could be seen in HOA agreements. Recently an individual was ordered by HOA to take down a fence that was too high, but the HOA did allow him to have a pool and the state law requires that person to have their fence the height it was. HOA lost. Contracts do not supercede law.

Fact 4: If you were to sell something online for real money and you got defrauded then the investigators would ask ANet for records such as players true name and etc. But on the flip side of that I would bet that your account would be suspended for violating the EULA after the fact.

Other info: Libel, Slander and Defamation of character suits have been happening all over the Internet (especially Libel as it is written word). Just check recent court cases involving Libel in blogs and chat rooms...


So there I have provided further assisting information for you to break apart. If you were just being negative for the sake of being negative I will understand and allow you to gracefully back down. If not provide your argument in a manner that proves your point instead of just making you look like a fool.

You all need to get laid.

Sony is a corporation and bound by Corporate Law...you as a single entity are not bound by these laws...you are comparing apples to oranges

You can't associate a meaningful..world wide value to an item that doesn't exist. You are not being provided a service for you time/money so one can only assume that you are being provided a tangible good...we only have two types of Goods that can be purchased in this world..Tangible and Untangible Services...you are being provided neither by purchasing an online item...there is no precedence, in a court of law, for handling a sale of an item/service that never existed.

EULAs are not contractual agreements...they are meaningless dribble posted by superstitious software developers in an attempt to cover their asses should anything go wrong.. They are no more contractually binding than my next two sentences are.

By clicking reply you agree to transfer to me your firstborn daughter, along with the sum of $50,000, at whatever point in the future I request. If your firstborn daughter is over the age of majority at that time, I may, at my option, take a younger daughter, a son, or an automobile, in place of her. You agree that I may, if I feel it necessary, take those items you have agreed to provide me without informing you until afterwards. You agree to hold me harmless and without blame for any incidental property damage or criminal charges that may result from such action on my part.

There, I even bolded it to make sure you read it, unlike those silly little EULAs.

that said...and we are somewhat in agreeance on this fact....

You haven't broken a law by defrauding someone in a video game...you aren't obtaining anything of any real value...just because someone can sell something for real money doesn't mean it's recognized as having real value. As I stated before the product or service you are offering doesn't exist in the real world...it's a faction of imagination based entirely on a storyline in a video game...it DOES NOT EXIST.

the fact that you think anyone would be wasting their time investigating this is enough to show that you have no idea what you are talking about....The United States does not waste time investigating video game crimes...

I'm no lawyer, but a couple of points:
True EQ has started a safe haven for people who want to sell characters and items. Firstly I believe it's still in it's experimental stage, and second you have to admit EQ2 is pretty desparate now. It's not sony it's other players selling. sony just provides the site for doing so.

Time is money, but the example you give as stated are for services rendered.

The EULA is the agreement between the player and the game maker. The player agree to it when he/she plays the game. I think if there would have to be some sort of governmental gaming law (like casinos have) before anyone could claim something was unfair.

actually the fun part of this is that you never know where another person is physically to you in real life

that means that the person who you are insulting has a tiny chance of being close enough to you to do physical damage to you if they find out who you really are.

an example from real life

there was a problem with an item that was shipped from a company within 2 miles of me.

the customer service person must have had one hell of a series of customers before me because if they were like that all the time they would be transfered or fired.

they didnt even bother to pull up the records to verify the address.

when i said possibly i should come in as i was figuratively right next door the attitude changed like a light switch.

the person who was thought to be in some other state was within a few minutes drive and possibly could be standing face to face in less than 10 minutes

the only point of this is that there is a tiny but real chance that someday someone will be close enough to actually do something about you

maybe that is what makes it exciting for you

and i do know one person about that age who is a very brave dominent insulting person on the interner

which is in truth the ONLY place he has even a shread of so called dominence

i actually feel sorry for him