12v12 needs to be reworked

I invoke the:

"Signet of MASSIVE Disapproval"
"Signet of The Masses"

The people have spoken! We want Alliance Battles as they are!

I don't need to reitterate why we want it that way, it's all been said. The Elitists can bite us, or just go back and hide in your R6 cookie-cutter builds.

A.Net, listen to your players, we are speaking to you with vibrant fervor, do not change Alliance Battles, you got it right the first time.


~Schodai, kosh-ko dae!
~Rise, that victory may be ours!
A Luxon Battlecry

:sighs:

But what I've been told though, once Factions goes live, Alliance battles will have teams composed of.. well.. your Alliance.

In other words, it's a glorfied GvG.

Which means, unless you've got hardcore players, you're RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed.

Which means I won't be doing Alliance battles that much.

I love the randomness of the Alliance battles. It's such an exciting novelty. It's a shame it's going to be replaced, though.

Please keep it the way it is right now, Anet. ;(

Quite simply, if 12-man battles turn into purely Alliance battles, then the vast majority of people will stop playing them. As it stands, what percentage of players can actually, regularly, and succesfully compete in Hero's Ascent? It can't be more than five percent, if that. And less than one percent can be successful in GvG.

The current 12v12 format is a format that anyone can be successful in. You don't have to aspire to Idiot Savants in order to enjoy a 12v12 match, or even to be a highly successful 12v12 player. Little ol' me, who has a great head for tactics and combat but also has too much of a life and not nearly enough masochistic tendencies to bother with HA at all or GvG very much, can go in and turn the tides of battle. Even PvE players can come in, enjoy a good beatfest, and Further The Cause. Even the roleplayers can get into 12-man matches - nothing like army battles to get the storytelling juices going.

Turn it into three squads of four guys apiece from a single Guild/Alliance, with no random selection of squads, and Anet will destroy what is possibly the best PvP format they've devised in the history of this game. Combine that with the all-but-officially-confirmed fact that only u63r l33t Alliances can gain control of towns, and the elite missions contained therein, and I will have to seriously reconsider buying any new campaigns beyond Factions.

Because if Anet can find it in itself to screw up such a beautiful game type, I do not want to know what else they could bring themselves to destroy.

You, sir, have summed up everything I've been struggling to say in a handful of posts.

I think that these Alliance Battles are fine.. but I think it would be really neat if there was just a humongous district where 250 people could be in it at the same time, all fighting each other (but it would be set up like 50 people on 1 team, 50 on another, etc). Now THAT would be a little hectic ; )

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You can play that now. It's called DAOC lol.

The random creation of the 12 player must stay, or else many players will be deprived the chance to have fun.

Alliances may have up to 1000 players, Alliance battles have no real effect on your alliance.

The game randomly puts teams of 4 from YOUR alliance together.

If you are part of a large alliance you can still easily get into a group and its hard to enforce a "Zomg Rank 6 only" rule.

I think I like Cunning will prefer it the way A.Net has it planned.

Notice that they are Alliance Battles, but in the FAQ Kurzicks and Luxons are distinctly refeered to as Factions, this reinforces the claims of what Alliance Battles are intended to be.

For anyone that is afraid this will turn into HA you should read the rest of this post. ALLIANCES DO NOT HAVE RANK. The rank system is what destroyed HA for most people and the devs understand they made a bad choice implementing.

12vs12 is nothing more than a grind fest for pve players to keep the towns. Since that town will affect merchants and such it will have a more imposing impact than the favor system. If you want to do elite missions in pve you will have to do some pvp to gain control of the town.

You don't have to have an Alliance to be able to get into the 12v12 maps. You just need yourself or a team of 4. You can still be matched randomly or do an alliance. That does not stop you from playing in any way if you want to go random.

Do you really think people won't use it anyway? It'll just be grind in HA to get the rank you have to have to get a team in Alliance battles.

It absolutely stops you from playing random (well, unless you like losing every game). It's like taking a PUG in TA; you might as well not even bother.

I've had teams from RA go 25+ wins straight after we get to TA. Random doesn't mean you will lose.

You would turn a fair battle, quick to organize, that you can still play with friends, you can get into the map in under a minute. into a game that forces you to do HA until you have enough of a rank to wait in a group for an hour as it organizes only to have it killed by a top rank guild in the first five minutes?

I hope the people who enjoy HA stay in HA because those are the people who ruin pvp.

I think they should do a random 12vs12 for the people who can't get into a group.

And a Heroes ascent version of 12vs12.

Let there be order!

No, it just means you've got a one-in-a-hundred chance of going anywhere.

Do you honestly think that, just because there isn't an account-specific reward for 12-man fighting, it will stay nice and fun and cool for anyone but people who spend thirty-four hours a day grinding faction? Uh-uh honey, no. Controlling an entire city and gaining EXCLUSIVE GODDAMNED ACCESS to the top PvE content in the game is a thousand times the reward a fancy flashy animal emote is.

Implement the ability to guarantee all twelve members of your team and I can guarantee you, it won't just be r6+ games, it'll be r12+ games or quite possibly even more insane. Or more likely, elite players will simply never play without a full twelve-man group so as to maximize their earnings.

And do tell me what randomly-grouped team that has never communicated with each other before and is reliant on Team channel and common sense (which is in rare enough supply) to coordinate their actions can stand up to twelve of Guild Wars' best players with a dedicated Ventrillo server, hundreds of hours of experience playing with just this people and just this build and has refined the chaos of 12v12 battle into just another type of farming.

You can take a random PuG into Hero's Ascent too. Tell me how far you get with one the next time you deign to try. Which will likely be never, because unranked pukes like me are so obviously not worth the breath in our bodies, much less a chance to see if I can, indeed, get anywhere in such an environment, eh?

Put some thought into what ye speak of, Twicky. 12-man battles will be the most influental, hotly-contested battles in all of Guild Wars, hands down, because they directly affect both standard PvE and top-level farming. Allow the elitist ultra-rich to band together without fail and that bare handful of oligarchs will continue to dominate everything Guild Wars, crushing down the casual, common, or new players in order to maximize their personal earnings, throwing honor, sportsmanship, and regard for one's fellow players straight out the same window it's been flying out of for the last year.

I. Will. Not. Stand. For. It!! The 12-man arena is our place, the one and only PvP refuge of the Average Man that means anything. And don't tell me Random Arenas - those get old after an hour of dealing with them. If that long. You people already have Hero's Ascent, both Underworlds, and Guild vs. Guild. Let us have our one retreat! Why must you steal this away from us too? Is this game not championed as the casual gamer's best friend? For a game which targets casual gamers as much as possible, we sure can't do that bloody much! And now we get a bone thrown our way, and the dominant elitist class wants to take away even that!

Well, I say nay! PvE is the domain of the casual players and those without the means and connections to play competitively, and I say any PvP that directly influences it should be as well! No way in HELL do I want the Guild Wars equivalents of the Rockefellers deciding what I can or can't do and where I can or can't go!

I say it's time for the elitists to be dependant on us for a change! For so long, over ninety-five percent of the Guild Wars player base has been getting the shaft every time they log on and play. No more! This time, I'll Red Engine Go-ing fight it! And judging by the overwhelming support for the current system in this thread, I won't be alone!

So give it up now. Go back to Hero's Ascent, your Underworlds, and training for the free trip to exotic locations and large cash prize that GvG elites can gain. Be content with your organized, structured, restricted, stale, utterly corrupt play there. Because if you people end up screwing up the 12-man fight for the other ninety-five percent of Guild Wars, I'll type my fingers down to bleeding stumps raising as much hell over it as I possibly can!

I really didn't bother to read the last 4 pages (and I seriously doubt that with that much reading, other people will have). But because everyone's opinion is valued to me (most of the time) I shall state my opinion in case this is the same for others.


12 vs 12 is a great idea... in theory. It works very well in reality, with two problems:
1) The lag. Twenty-four people on a huge map will lag. I was fortunate enough to be on my good computer this weekend, so I didn't get very much of it... but that computer has 1 gig of RAM and a processor that would put ANet to shame. Twelve vs. Twelve makes it paramount for you to have a good computer.
2) The lack of organization. However you look at it, there are going to be problems in the organization unless you make it teams of 12. The current one of teams of 4 is, in my opinion, the best. It allows for small teams inside the larger one to act like shock troops if need me. That's what my guild did during the preview. We got on TS and went around capturing as many points as we could.
Looking at teams of 6: Two teams of organized parties. Can you see the bickering that would go on between two head-strong wannabe Napoleans? Or even an organized guild and a n00b PUG. The party stands a far better chance of splitting down the middle, and then some from one side going with the more organized group. You'd have a larger good party and a smaller bad party.
Looking at teams of 12: GvG + 4 players per team. Top guilds would gain way too much [faction] faction, and increase their standing to a level far beyond any less-active or smaller guild.
And the rumour is that if you have enough standing, you can purchase areas for your guild. Can you see player-based factions controlling huge parts of the map? (My source for that rumour is my guild, someone heard it somewhere.)

My opinion on alliance battles: good as they are.

LaserLight pretty much said everything I wanted to say.

I'll say it again:
ANET, please don't take away the new found joy for the casual Guild Wars players.
Please.

Thank you.

Laser you might want to know who you speak to before you run your mouth. I've played since beta of c1 and am currently RANKLESS and always will be. RANK means nothing and GOOD players know that. GvG is my format.

Casual players are in no way locked out of 12vs12 matches because of alliances you only need a team of 4 to take control of alters and maintain that control which is what the battle is all about. Farmers farm not play pvp so that idea is out. This town taking is a way to limit farming and keep everyting square for the AVERAGE player in pve.

If it takes you hours to find a 4 man team then you haven't met enough friends and I can see why. Even if people request rank in 12vs12 matches it only takes 4 people and then go. Its just like making a TA pug which takes no time at all.

Everyone is so worried about the top tier guilds it is laughable. How many top tier guilds are there? Now how many instances of 12vs12 are going to be battling at one time? I'll bet there are more instances than top guilds. there will be top tier guilds but there will also be more middle class players and even more complete nubbies.

Casual players are not being left behind in any way by alliances. If you feel that you are being "left behind" then don't buy it. Wait for c3 in 6 months.

Laserlight get off your damn soapbox man.

You act so bloody righteous but ignore some simple facts.

It will still be 3 teams of 4 randomly put together from WITHIN your alliance.

Top Tier guilds will be unlikely to be playing alot of it because they are much more concerned with GvG. Domination of the Faction standings will most likely be held by large active alliances.

Aside from that your making a huge assumption saying that it will need rank to get in groups. On what grounds are you basing this? Even if by some off chance they start too I still get into rank 6 groups merely by messaging the advertiser and explaining things to them.

If you are in an active Guild you shouldn't have any troubles with HA either. The game is called GUILD wars after all.

i've played the 12 vs 12 only 3 times. i did not like it because it's like a huge random arena. ppl were just randomly pinging the compass, running off like idiots everywere. even with 4 ppl from your own party, it's still a mess.

as a pvp player, i couldn't care less about pve town control. if this will remain random, i won't be playing it and i'm sure most of the pvp only players will feel the same.

i see a solution to this though. they should make 2 types of 12 man arenas.

1. should be this same 12 man random arena that controls the pve towns. this way pve players can have their grind fest without complaining about rank.

2. should be a new 12 man ORGANISED arena, just like our current heros ascent but that would have no impact on pve towns.

i think this would solve all problems. people say factions if pvp based but i disagree. i feel left out as a pvp'er because all this town control thing. why should they ruin our fun be placing us in random teams for the SOLE benefit of pve'ers. this randomness is very frustrating, it needs a change!

i was looking forward to factions being able to organise a 12 man party. i got very disappointed so far.

if the only way to solve this is to have 2 versions then so be it but i dont want to lose what we had in the beta..

also if u only get placed with people in your alliance that obviously means that if they're not on u cant play?

Ristaron: there was no lag for me, actually like once or 2wice but i think that was more to do with their servers and it being the preview weekend then anything

allience: by the end of the weekend i didnt see any of that, i encountered less leavers was fortunate not to come across any suicide bombers, and in general everyone knew what they were doin, but i agree with your solution hopefully its something a.net have considered

I'd like something similar to what allience said.

I think it's obvious that there is an audience for both unorganized and organized play, that certainly is the case in our guild and most guilds we've been speaking to.

What I could see (or, would like to see) happening is something like this:

Let's say we have two Alliances, one is Kurzicks and one Luxon, each consisting of 3 organized guilds, ready to play some Alliance battles. All of them are on Ventrilo/TS, got specific skillbars, know what each player is doing, etc, etc...

They both 'Enter Mission', but instead of going against random teams, get placed against each other, similar to how GvG matchups are made (maybe depending on the accumulated Alliance Standing of the 3 guilds, for example). This ensures that there would be a similar level of skill in both teams and the battle will be as fair as possible.

These battles, in order for them to be worthwhile for the guilds to actually participate in and invent specific builds for, should have a larger effect on the battle lines than the Random battles, and maybe something like a popup message similar to the HoH message should appear saying "The 'xxx' Alliance has broken through the lines at 'xxx' location! Kurzicks/Luxons are pushing the lines forward!". (Being a PvP person, this has always been a nice reward, having some kind of global recognition, but I am all for having it be toggle-able, as I'm sure it may be annoying for those that don't care). This message would also alert other Guilds/Alliances that they may need to form a group to counter the push, etc...

Unlike the above poster though, I do think the organized teams should still get the same faction awards though, no reason to exclude them from pve completely..

i think 12v12 battle will only make sense if u can choose ur team. This 12v12 has huge tactical potential if u can go in with 2 other random teams, it would be such a waste (for players and anet), there will be no communication in tactics, no coordiation in the team builds.....etc. Everyone who know how to pvp know it's the WHOLE team build that matters not an individual player's build and not so much to 4 players' build. If u can only go into a match without knowing what skills in the team, it's not making the game enough, it's just plain stupid, i cant imagine a real good players will do it (can u imagine how annoyed a r12 player will be if he's put in the same team with a r0), it's just as stupid as giving each player a random skillbar.

I also think 12v12 is the way to go. With the new profs and new skills, u might need a 12 men team otherwise ur team wont have enough skills to counter all possible builds. For exmaple a good HA team probably need skills like windborne for relic map, shield up for ranger spike, spirits for holding, some interrupts to stop other team from capping..... And with the new skills & professions god know how many new builds there will be, for example, u might need unnatural signet for counting the future possible spirit spamming team. It might turn out that u can never fit all the necessary skills in a 8 men team, and HA will become a lottery place where u can only win if u r lucky (lucky not to face a build that u dont have the counter for).

Changing Alliance battles from the brilliant, semi-organized chaos of 3 random teams of 4 chosen players, into hand-picked 12 man teams, would, unequivocally, be the worst decision they have ever made about the direction of Guild Wars. In its current incarnation, 12v12 is the best, healthiest, and most inspired format the game has ever had. It has more widespread appeal than anything they've ever made, creating an everyman's format that's still deep enough to keep a seasoned veteran coming back. The semi-random group selection is brilliant, allowing you to play with your friends without the organizational nightmares and raw competitiveness that comes with a completely organized format. But even more remarkable is how well that selection process works for 12v12. It's a gametype where you can organize with the team, or run off and do your own thing without ever talking to anyone on your team, and either way you're still contributing.

I have to say that I was a bit concerned about straight 12v12 when I first heard about it, but the way it ended up being implemented was better than anyone could have hoped. Whoever thought up the concept should be due for a big raise. Anyone who suggests changing it significantly should be fired with extreme prejudice.

The *only* change that I would like to see to the format is access. Instead of getting both pairs of NPCs in your guild hall to start an alliance battle, only the pair associated with the faction your guild is currently allied with should be accessable. That way you couldn't even enter the forming districts for the opposite faction, eliminating moles that join a battle just to throw it to the faction that they're actually on. If you're in a Luxon alliance with Luxon standing then you fight for the Luxons in alliance battles, period.

I'm one of the most competitive players in this game, fanatically so, and I'm here to tell you that even people who regularly play GvG on the highest level love 12v12. It's just that good.

Peace,
-CxE

If they were to keep it in it's current state, they would need to address the possibility of two groups of 4 from the same guild joining at the same time.

Ensign, you do know that it is more or less guaranteed, judging by the interviews, that these battles will be organized?

I'd like to see it random and having organised 3 team of 4 = 12 players from a guild alliance or not.

I do think though that alliances will come into play somehow after release as i'm sure they must have uses in PvP as well as PvE mission and co-op area's.

All in all though really enjoyed the matches I played in Alliance battles over the weekend.

Your problem is right there.

You only played it three times.

You played a new PVP map only three times.

When I started playing domination that morning, everything was shit. Hell, I was shit.

By the end of that first day though, things were starting to rock. You didn't have to say anything about positioning. People would immediately break off into 4 - 4 - 4. People understood the significance of certain control points.

People understood that minion masters kicked serious ass.

Ensign continues to take the words out of my mouth as to why the current incarnation of 12v12 is -the best thing- to ever find its way into Guild Wars.

There are the hardcore players and the causal player and then there are the noobs. i'd say hardcore players are those skillful one, and causal are those not so skilled but at least know what's going on. Randomly team with causal or hardcore players might not be too bad, but it's annoying as hell to be in a team with noob (my own personal experience is having a wammo holding the orb for the whole time and not dropping when players are dead). That's what i hate the most about random teaming.

unorganised 12v12 might appeared to be fun at the beginning, but it might turn horrible soon if u keep on losing for stupid reasons. or u might be sick of those immature players who are everywhere.

Many ppl complainting about cant getting a team in HA for example, but team work is what GW is about, and u need a team (a regular team, not 7 ppl in party window) to have proper team work. This is a multiplayer game so plz go out and make some GW friends and team up. Doing only what u want is not going to get u anywhere (at least in the pvp aspect). If u want to solo then plz go pve or try oblivion.

I'll be very disappointed if u can only make semi-random team for 12v12 battle. That'll be like filling HoH(by that i mean the highest level of battlefield) with noobs.... >_<!

<APPLAUSE!> Hear, hear!

yea but many online FPS are team games but u still play them with random people and its all good.. if u've got a noob school him everyones a noob at some point, if u had said to him to drop the orb to rez people im sure he would have listened and if not that only one player down ive been on 11 v 12 teams and won (and personally if u didnt school him in my eyes, no offence but a bigger noob), dont see the problem.. u can team up with people that uve never met before quite easily and do well, which is plainly evident in the matches on sat and sun of the preview event once people got used to the new dynamics..

atm the allaince battles we had in the FPE would for me be the biggest selling point considering i got to the luxon place done 2 missions then jus played alliance battles and managed to earn all 10K faction points doin that, i got strategy's planned jus for alliance battles, skills i wanna try etc etc.

in general people dont wanna wait to form a party for ages or even at all in some cases, have to fit a certain build, play a certain way, play with one set of people, be a certain char and 2ndary etc etc, all these things were eliminated in the alliance battles in one fell swoop and for me if it changed from the way it was my anticipation for factions would go down greatly..

You will always have noobs, Luilui. People need to learn.


No, it was actually fun the whole way through the event. At first, people were pretty unsure of what they were doing--and so was I. After a few run-throughs though, everyone began to understand what the 12v12 was all about, and how to manage the scenario. By the end of the Factions event, not only were teams becoming really competitive in 12v12, my guild was planning what would be the best four-man squad to use.

I'm not sure how this criticism reflects Alliances. Last I checked, I was on a team of eleven other people. And while we all may not know each other, that in and of itself does not suggest a lack of a team. Rather, it says, "Hey, none of us know each other--but if we want to win, let's work together."

I'm not sure what "doing only what u want" reflects Alliances, either.

Well, see, in reverse, that's why I don't want to see 12v12 made team-based. Suddenly, if you want to be able to play, you have to be the best of the best, or at least EXTREMELY COMPETITIVE. There's no room for the casual PVPer. In its current incarnation, 12v12 is practically open to everyone, because everyone knows there's not going to be one build dominating it, one guild dominating it, one alliance dominating it.

See Ensign's posts for the best reasons.

Anet can just make 2 types of alliance battles one for unorganised, one for organised. Then we can keep the causal players happy as well as the serious players. There is no reason (and not fair??) to give one up for the other.

For me it'll be a real pity if alliance battle cant be played at the highest tactical level (just observing will be enjoyable enough for me). Especially with the addition of the new spirits and teleportation. Maybe one day some1 can invent a way of holding 3 altars with only 2 teleporting ritualists lol.

Im sure there will be another place that will allow organized 12v12, we dont know what factions offers yet.

/not signed

I like random groups, I hate standing around for 45 minutes saying, Hey pick me! I like the random groups cause i can just jump in.

You guys always talk like as if the team is not
"selected careful before entering the battle",

then it will be "unorganized", and then you guys claim that you guys will
"not have fun, because its unorganized".

Did you all notice that, the "get ready time" for the Alliance Battles is more than a minute?

During that one minute time, surely some form of tactics can be discussed, easiest one being the spilting up of the team, so that different groups charge out to different strategic points, in order to capture and secure them.

Granted, this "method" of "quick discussion and implementation of tactics" will be workable if everyone on the team is a dedicated player that will not rage quit, and has good experience in 12 vs 12 Alliance Battles, as well as adequate pvp experience.


Anway,
/not signed again

Alliance Battles should stay random.
(If you want, you can always form your own team of 4 ubar players, hence become an ubar shock team that will contribute much to your team of 12 players)

That was very well put and sums up what I think about this format. It's got the same sort of appeal that FPS team deathmatch does, and even more to boot. I really hope it stays random.

This is going to suffer the same fate as the CA arenas. 4-5 months ago there were 15-20 dist at one time on the american server. That number has shrank to about 3 at the most. Less people are doing CA because its completely random and your success depends on absolute strangers with no corination in builds.

Yes 12vs12 is fun at first. 5-6th time through its more....eh ok I'll go do something else now because it will never change. Just like CA never changes and less people play it.

Keeping it random is putting an expiration date on the arena. Eventually people will move on to something else they have more control over.

The rewards for this arena is the one of the biggest problems for me. The only reward is taking over a town which ONLY PvE can benifit from. Pvp players are left with an increasingly boring format with no rewards. I don't see this lasting if it stays random. This arena was made to keep those pve players from leaving the game due to limited content. With the pve environment changing constantly there will be more of an incentive to stay and play. I think the real changes to the game are going to happen with c3. So far factions is a pve chapter IMO. Only benifit a pvp player gets is new professions (which are only good in 12vs12) and skills for core classes. After playing the beta I am buying Factions only for the skills. I'm going right now to reduce my pre-order from the collectors edition to the standard. I might cancel it all together and get an account at a cheaper price later. Anet has to play both fronts. You can please one side but you could be leaving the other side in the dust. Which is exactly what c2 is doing to hardcore pvp players right now. I play the game to be competative not endless grinding.

Alliances are not cordinated at all. You can have up to 1000 players in 1 alliance. From those players that are doing 12v12 at one time will be entered into the match with you. Its still going to be random but you are not going to have a prime pick if there are a couple 100 people in your alliance. This does make a more narrow focus on who is invited into your games compared to being purely random.

That's a pity. I guess they just wanted to mess with people this weekend and tease them with a PvP format that's actually accessible to a wider audience. It's exactly what this game needs right now on the PvP front.


I think you misunderstand the current gaming environment. HA is not the highest level of competition. HA is a slum. It's pretty widely recognized as a sea of gimmick builds in a format that bluntly doesn't matter.

As soon as 12v12 becomes organized it becomes orders of magnitude more serious. You start seeing more FOTMs and the format becomes dominated by a small set of guilds who care. It becomes just another slum, like HA, with no place for people who don't dedicate themselves to the format.


That's what you're missing. The serious players don't care, we'd rather be GvGing against other competitive guilds if we wanted a good, hard match. If both options were presented, organized 12v12 would be a wasteland compared to the sheer number of games being played in the semi-random environment.


That's only true of the zerg alliances that are trying to hold cities. The competitive alliances are going to be significantly smaller. As far as alliance battles, if the teams are all organized, the number of people trying to enter at the same time from a competitive alliance is going to be exactly 12.

Peace,
-CxE

Its all about the zerg. Even if you win every match you play with every top teir guild. That is nothing compared to the mass amount of other instances of 12v12 at one time.

Its all about what side wins more faction to push the boarders to take over a town. You don't just need 1 win every 30-40 minutes you need 100s at a time. Basicly which ever side has more of a population will be taking more towns.

Not true, larger polpulation will have absolutly NO effect because you have to play the other side to effect the boarders, so in effect skill will always matter. Because no matter how many people you have waiting to play they can't play the other faction to help theres unless theres someone to play.

You can switch sides any time. Population will influx.