From ANet: Most skills will have to be purchased or captured in Factions

The RPG genre has had the "character developement = grind" excuse to suck for far too long. I'm really sick of it. No one had to play D&D for 500 hours begin having fun with it.

If a single person can answer all of the following infallibly, you've shut me up:

1) Why should PvE rewards and character developement be in PvP?
2) Why not have faster unlocks?
3) Why still advertise as a competitive PvP game if new players have to grind for over 500 hours just to have a chance at a half-decent guild?

The only thing I've seen said about why not to faster unlocks, or even UAS, is the following paraphrase from A.Net: "It's not there because we never intended it to be there". Oh, don't forget about all the mentally impared who say "z0mg j00 just wnat it all on teh silver platter, go gr1nd n00by".

I understand that PvE needs something to work for, but as long as that something to work for is the very basis of PvP, this game is unrepairably broken. If skills are the foundation for PvP, then lack of them is an unsteady, cracked foundation.

Finally, what do you gain from forcing PvPers through PvE? Schadenfreude?

That's the basic genre, but this game is much much less of a grind, and they've put their focus on playing more than other games. Getting up to level 20 is very fast and easy and apparently will be even faster in factions. Unlocking enough skills to 'start' playing pvp is also very easy. While they don't care that you're playing every month, there still needs to have a continued interest long enough to have you buy the next game. Part of that is having character progression, although they've done it through skill unlocking.. which is basically just added option and isn't the same as taking months and months to get to max level.. like WOW or something. I much prefer this way personally.

Again, there's the business model and appeal of character progression. There are other games that don't have this, such as FPS's, but this isn't an fps. They also like having a connection between pvp and pve, and having pve unlock things for pvp is one of those connections.

Same reason, it's a business. There's also the issue of having skills before you know how to use them. If people unlocked things very very quickly, they'd have UAS before they were really any good at this game. Not that that's their reason, but it's a good reason to me. Slower unlocks mean people learn to use what they have better before moving on to other builds/profs/skills.

I already think the unlock rate outpaces the learning curve for a lot of people. If you're aspiring to be in a top guild, then you have to have a level of skill.. a lot of which is going to come from playing and having experience. During that time, when you were learning the game.. you'll unlock things (even if you weren't playing to unlock things). I'd argue that skill level is preventing people from being in whatever guild they want to be in, more so than the skills they have unlocked.

Is there some game you're thinking of, an mmorpg.. that has this? Do you have some reference point, where you can say.. see.. they did it, why can't this game?

It's not forced. The rate is high enough that you don't have to play pve at all. I think people should however, if they're just starting the game, so they can learn the game at least a little first.. but people who had prophecies that just want to play pvp can certainly do so. I will be unlocking a vast majority of content through pve because of the capped faction, and no cap on gold or skill pts. Even though I don't particularly like that, I still don't consider it forced.

can you??

To play PvP on a competitive level, or to get into a decent guild, you need a lot of unlocks. I'm not saying you need UAX right off, although most top-50 guilds have UAXed starting 8 teams. A.Net replaced level grind with skillgrind. A PvEer may not feel it, but it's really agonizing to me and my friends.



I thought the business model was "We don't need you to stick around and give us monthly-fee-money because we're forcing you to play for a really long time to have fun, therefore we'll let you do what you want and wait for you next chapter". They haven't really connected the two at all: Nothing you learn in PvE is useful (besides basic controls) for PvP.

Ok, lets say you're right. They want you to do both: Why must I do PvE 3 or 4 times to get all the skills for all the professions? That's grind. Simple grind.



People don't learn what they have with slower unlocks at all. Do you ever see someone in PvE change their build? I certainly don't. You can, and most people do, get through all of PvE with the same 8 skills, and maybe the 3-4 you substituted before you unlocked Mending.

Am I an idiot, or is it perfectly logical that you can't learn how to use something if you aren't allowed to use it yet?


"Hey, can you make me an RC prot?"
"No, I don't have Restore Condition unlocked"
[Kick]



Excuse my neivete: I thought GW was supposed to be this genre-changing RPG it was advertised as. I want Guild Wars to be the game that other RPG fans will say "see, they did it. why can't [other game]".



Most PvPers worth their salt will tell you you need UAX or close. If the only way to get this in any reasonable amount of time is through PvE, then it is indeed forced.



Ok: Compromise time: What if you got 200k Faction when you ascended a character or beat Hell's Precipice? It would make new players go through PvE to learn the game mechanics and general controls, then give them a nice starting bost for PvP. That's enough for roughly 8 builds (actually less because I rounded down to 25k faction per build, and am ignoring the fact that a new player will make a lot of mistakes while building).




PS: I still haven't gotten a response on why rather than PvEer's goals being PvP unlocks, and thus completely screwing up the PvP side of the game for all new or otherwise non-grind-loving players. Why couldn't it be stuff in PvE that would be truley exclusive, like incredible skins on weapons and armour, and other stuff. Hell, you can have 1337 über statted weapons too, as long as they are PvP restricted (would probably be set back down to max stats when entering an arena).

People have drifted way off topic.

The new method for unlocks in PvE is better than current. Period.

i'd compare those shoes to a sundering mod

Not if it's slower. Otherwise, I'd agree.

I don't doubt that at all. But what I'm saying is that it's not the reason they're in the guild. The reason that they're in the guild and that it's a top guild is because they're good players, and to be good.. you have to play a lot.. and through the course of playing a lot, they unlocked everything. They're good because they play a lot, not because they have everything unlocked. I mean you start off an FPS with the same things available to everyone else, but that doesn't mean you start out as a top player.

The grind is much less, and that's what they've stated. And again, I already stated what the difference is between having more options, and grinding for great loot to become competitive. This game doesn't make you do that.

Well, basic controls.. knowing what the skills do and using them in an easier environment. I think pve helps more than you do. Using a class's skills for a duration through pve does teach you the skills at least. You're going to learn and remember it better than just reading what the skills do. And if you're new, I do think it's better for someone to go through the game once in pve before pvping. The connection they've stated is intentional. It's been therir reason to give favor to pve'ers through HoH, and I believe they're extending that connection in factions in a number of different ways, and seems to be a main theme.

I'm not saying they want you to do both, and I don't think it's necessary to go through the game multiple times if you don't want to. I think after unlocking some base skills for a couple profs, learning the game at a basic level, and then moving onto pvp after going through the pve once is fine. You'll learn what other people do and start to add different options available to you and more profs.

Just having RC and the skills doesn't mean you'd make a good prot monk. If you're in HA, and want to be more appealing to whatever team you're trying to join, then having more content unlocked is beneficial.. but there are still things you're going to be better at and more knowledgable about.. even if you have UAX.

Pickups in this way would be much harder than it already is if the unlocking rate was much higher. At least now, not having the right skills is a good sign people wouldn't be able to play a certain role.. but people could 'fake' knowing how and people would trust randoms even less than they already do.

Of course, but if you increase the rate, then people wouldn't be spending as much time knowing how to play the skills they already have. You figure by the time people unlocked all content, that they'd have a decent knowledge of the game. As they learn new skills, they try them and learn how they work. If that rate is too high, that process would be shortened and people would spend less time on each set of new skills they learned.

Yah, and I think to a large extent this is that game. I've played others, so I may appreciate it more.. but the differences are extreme. Have you played any others? I would guess you hadn't, because I think you would see that the grass is greener here.. and it's not even close. Not to be a fan boy, but I think this game is vastly superior in those ways. They do make a concerted effort in a number of different areas to remove the unfun grinding elements, and they'll admit mistakes. Remember attribute refunds? Remember no faction? Remember lesser faction? Remember 20k per level? They've continued to improve this game, and a lot of it has been lessoning the grind factor and making unlocking content easier and faster. It seems this trend continues in factions from what I've read so far.

200 skill pts worth? That would be going against what you're saying anyway. You want pvp's unlock rate to be competitive with pve I think, and you don't want to have to pve at all.

I already think it is, except for a couple exceptions. First, the cap on faction and no cap on gold/skill pts.. but that's only a factor inbetween new games, and only once you've unlocked everything. Second, you can farm pretty rapidly for skill pts, at a higher rate than you can w/ faction. The first, I am annoyed by, in fact.. it's the most annoying thing in the game for me. The second, I accept. Farming is pretty boring and it's boiled down to doing a solo activity as fast as possible for the purpose of gains. So it probably should be the quickest. You still have to take those skill pts to the desired areas to unlock skills, and it's random on anything else you unlock (runes, upgrades, etc). Faction only takes a click, so I still think pve farming should outpace faction by a small margin to make up for that, since there's time spent cashing in those skill pts by getting to the proper areas and that time is considerable in contrast to what pvpers have to do to cash in their faction.

Now if you're just a casual player, going through pve and playing in full groups.. I doubt the unlock rate is anywhere near what a pvper can do. So pvp is the middle ground as far as unlock rate.. faster and easier to cash in than standard pve, but not as fast as hardcore farming can be. That seems fair to me.

i still recall the begging by the pvp players way back when at TGH and elsewhere.

*give us a way to unlock other than PVE even if it is slower than PVE at least we will be doing what we like while we unlock.*

you got faction and yelled way to slow.

they increased it and you yelled way to slow

they multiplied it by 5x for the faction weekend and most were either happy or satisified with that as the results came in that i had unlocked 2 professions and most of a 3rd.

they listened to you and gave you your PVE alternative so use it.

the only problem is that you and your friends want UAS or if you cant get that as close as makes no difference.

You can't apply this argument to GW, because it is not an MMORPG. It's a CORPG, by the developers' own statement.

Their goal is to encourage competition, it is not to keep people locked on the grind treadmill the way MMOs do. Less grind is still grind, and fails to fulfill the promises of a competitive game.

Every competitive game out there that's massively popular, from Starcraft to Counterstrike, starts you with all options when you go into the PvP section. When you do the PvE section (Halflife, Starcraft campaign) you start with less. That is the model GuildWars should be following if it wants to be known as a competitive game as it's advertised, as following the MMO business model is going to be suicide, and even if it doesn't cost them enough money to fail outright it will cost them heavily in competitive players.

Oh yeah, that's me in a nutshell. My friends and I just love to bitch rather than play the game. We all want it on a silver platter because we're too nooblike to get it for ourselves. We're too lazy to grind, and we haven't earned the right to play against your 1337 grinding superior hardcoreness. We should really just go find another game, like Counter Strike, in a completely different genre because Guild Wars isn't for us. I mean, a game advertised as a casual-gamer friendly, competitive game, could never be for a competitive, casual gamer. Especially if it's an RPG. The very basis of an RPG is grind because everyone loves arbitrary numbers. This bullshit about "you should spend every minute playing having fun rather than preparing to have fun" was a sucky ad compaign, and I'm glad you convinced me to see that grind is the greatest thing in the world. Ya know what? I think I'll go make a RuneScape account now and level myself up to level 140-something and get expensive armour and a full set of holiday celebration items, because that's what kind of a hardcore PvE gamer I am now that your wise words of "don't bitch" have done for me. I have learned from you, Sinsei, that it doesn't matter if I'm skilled, as long as I can put up with grind.

Thank you for your infinite wisdom. Posts full of unbased fallacies and "quit whining" are what make forums like these great!

PS: All typos left unedited for effect.

Signed, sealed, delivered. I do expect that they figure out how I'm going to have UAX in no more than a week w/o having to invest sloads of my time in faction farming or whatever. I don't mind PvE, I said it before, I enjoy doing it and enjoy capping skills and all... but bottom line is, I play GW for the PvP, not the PvE. And I am not going to spend more than 1 week for my UAX. That's 3 classes + 1 of the new = 4 classes. 1 week, 4 classes, what are the odds I wonder... Now of course if I want my UAS... that's a different story... I'm not even going there, because the concept of heavy grind is innevitable.

I would love a link where it stated that this was their mission statement.

I've seen it self proclaimed as an mmorpg LITE and such, but never that their main goal was competition. I think they're split evenly on trying to cater towards pvp and pve.

And I don't think playing pvp is grinding. You can play as you normally would, and unlock things just by playing. Just accidentally unlocking more content just by doing what you were doing anyway. I don't consider faction a grind when you gain it from normal play. You want to unlock things at an even greater level? Great, go farm.. that's an option you have. That's a grind to some people, but it certainly isn't required.

PVP is certainly competition and having unlocked content doesn't make you good. Anyone starting shoot focus on a certain role and try to become proficient at that.. while in the mean time unlocking content that allows them to try other roles.. and they'll have to spend time becoming proficient with those builds as well. There's a time factor involved whether you have everything unlocked, or only one thing unlocked.. as far as becoming a good pvp player and being able to fulfill multiple roles. That time for more people is substantially above the time it takes to unlock everything IMO, so why does it even matter? If you're not willing to put in enough pvp time to unlock everything, then you wouldn't have put in enough time to be good anyway. I find it a mute point.

Read the box. Go to their site. Do you buy games you know nothing about, or are you just attracted to eye candy and free online play?

You can't "play normally" because PvPers definitely wouldn't play normally in the Random Arenas, or doing Hero's Ascent FoTM groups 24/7. I would GvG or have fun with unique HA groups, but having unlocks is a prerequisite to successful high-end PvP, so you can't until you've grinded PvE first.

That's a gross generalization, bordering on a downright lie. I forgot the point where spiking with Lightning Orb was so much different than doing it with Obsidian Flame. When did using Crippling Shot and Apply Poison become a hard task? (2, 1, tab, 1, tab, 1, tab, 1, tab, 1, tab, 1, 2, tab, 1, tab 1).

Playing PvP is extremely easy. Being good at it is extremely hard. A.Net isn't giving players a chance to be good at it because they aren't giving players a chance to play it the way it was meant to be played.

Your last statement is the worst, though. You say that a player who likes PvP wouldn't put in time to become good at PvP because he doesn't want to put in time to doing PvE, which he doesn't like? I'm not even going to go any further with this one. I think the statement defeats itself.

You mean for Factions no it is not if you know where all the skill quests are you can just go and get them and skip all the rest.This is all the other quests as well that just give you items.If you need a skill say an elite all you have to do is go and cap it or even a no elite if you know where the boss is.

http://www.guildwars.com/aboutgw/synopsis/default.php

Check out that link and tell me that either of you accurately depicted how this game is advertised. The first line even says "massively multiplayer online games". It also talks about pvp in the third section. If it's priority #1, why isn't it discussed as such?

Ironic that I know nothing about the game, yet I'm happy with it and bought the game and had expectations that were met. While you two didn't. I guess I'm just lucky, and you two were screwed by some unknown advertising. Good thing they got rid of the evidence, and neither of you will send me a link that supports what you said. They're truley evil geniuses.

I think I know what your problem is. Some guilds or higher level pugs in HA didn't let you in their groups and you've decided it's because of whatever you didn't unlock. If you haven't played enough pvp to have enough faction to unlock almost everything that would be useful to you, then you don't belong in a top guild or a high level pug.

Being good at pvp doesn't come from simply having something unlocked. I don't know how to put it any simpler than that, but again.. I think you're just fooling yourself into believing that's whatever's holding you back.. from whatever.. and so you come here and bitch.

I didn't say pvp players should do pve. Only when they initially buy the game. If you're trying to tell me that someone can buy the game, jump onto a top guild and perform well.. if only they had that UAX button.. you're delusional. I think after going through the game once in pve, you should be ready to 'start' pvp. You still won't be any good, but you at least have some basics, some content unlocked in two profs, and can start to learn how other profs work. I said people who haven't pvp'd long enough to have unlocked things through faction, aren't playing enough to be good. I didn't say that their unwillingness to farm or whatever was holding them back.

That however is just my opinion on how to best acclimate yourself to this game, and pve isn't a forced part of the game. Will people let you into their HA groups or into their high level guild, even if you have nothing unlocked? No, they won't, and it's not because you have nothing unlocked, but because that's proof you have no pvp experience.

I agree... the invest time concept is a PvE thing. PvE-ers invest time doing 1000 Fissure runs (I have been there, I know what I'm talking about), hoping to get the coolest items, the coolest armor, etc. PvP players (the good ones) understand that investing time in PvP is about understanding strategies and game mechanics and I'm sure there will be a lot to learn in Factions and it sure is going to take some time, all the while being fun. HOWEVER, acquiring skills PvP-ers need to have right away, in order to maintain their competitive edge and be able to BEGIN to understand the above mentioned game strategies and mechanics, should be anything but a slow cumbersome process. Well... it's going to be a slow cumbersome process...

And playing PvE isn't always an option for PvP players. I know a ton of people who think the game plot is pathetic and are 100% convinced that the game plot of Factions won't have anything better or more interesting to offer and wouldn't PvE to gain skills if they absolutely had to, they'd rather quit the game. Me, I can balance between the 2. Problem is I neither have the gold, nor the desire to spend it, at this very moment. (2 sets of Fissure take their toll )

You proove you have no PvP experience. Therefore, why do you even argue something that doesn't have anything to do with you?

Your wish is my command, and all that.

From http://www.guildwars.com/aboutgw/synopsis/ :
I find it particularily amusing you linked to this page yourself, and chose to ignore the part of it that talks about being competitive and it being one of the main focuses of the game. Note how this paragraph describes their PvP -- that is not how it currently exists in game. I can not take a new account and have a hope of being competitive with the advanced players. Here's how to look at it: Take WM and stick them on brand new accounts. Have them take that team of premades and try to claim the GWWC. They'll fail, likely in a spectacular fashion, through no fault of their own. They didn't spend hundreds of hours unlocking their accounts, so what can they do?

And a second link for you, from http://www.guildwars.com/aboutgw/faq/ :
The quote is about 2/3rds of the way down the page, under the heading "Is Guild Wars an MMORPG (Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game)? As many of the points presented have shown, parts of this statement are blatantly untrue -- particularily ones like "Success in Guild Wars is always the result of player skill, not time spent playing..." See my previous WM in the GWWC using premades example.

I could find more, but really what's the point? These two alone set up enough expectations that haven't been met.
I can not play as I normally would, because (And let's say this is a new account, which is where the grind would really hit) I would never choose as lousy a skill set as the premades have. Even if they had better options, odds are I would not choose one to play, if I were doing it the way I wanted to.
This is really like telling someone new to starcraft that they shouldn't test out the various races, they should start on one and -stay- on it until they get good. After all, if they can't take the time to master one race (When they may actually love the style of another) they can't be good enough to compete. Right?

where can i see a list of the new skills?

Once again you prove that you are clearly illiterate. Read your own link, genius.

Ignorance is bliss.

High level PUG? Hahaha... Right. I don't play with PUG's. But lets move onto a less humorous topic: It's not that I couldn't play the build - for the first couple months after release, I had the cushy monk job that rarely changed from build to build, but my guildies were a different story. "Can you make this build?" "No". I watched guild that had held a top-15 spot for a month fell off the ladder, lost all but 5 of it's active members, and eventually disbanded. The reformed guild we made suffered the same blow and now finally we remade into a guild who's members have useful skills and runes - our starting 8 is nearly UAXed. But it took several agonizingly boring months I could have done without in a game I play to escape from boring reality.

Can you read? I never said "Having UAX makes you good". I said "Having skills gives you the opportunity to play PvP, which in turn can lead to you being good". Are you having fun misinterpreting my self explanitory statements and then telling me I'm bitching, or would you like to move onto another hobby?

Actually, you did. Shall I quote it for you again?

"If you're not willing to put in enough pvp time to unlock everything, then you wouldn't have put in enough time to be good anyway. I find it a mute point."

Unlocking in the most efficient way possible takes over 500 hours. Are you telling me it takes 500 hours to earn basic competence in a metagame where pressing 1 when you hear "3...2...1.. spike!" earns victory? Man. I hope I'm never as slow at learning new things as you are.

I never said I could grab someone off the street, give them a UAXed account, and have them own. I said that UAX allows people to learn faster because of ability to exeriment with their builds. How are you going to learn how to use skills, learn how they interact with each other, learn which ones synergize, clear up the vagueness of the descriptions, and learn how to play if you never get the chance?

Yeah, it's not because you can't play a single build they give you, it's because you're too stupid to learn how to play a game, right? How is a PUG to measure your intelligence? We all know IWAY destroyed whatever relevance Rank had before and they're not going to ask for a screenshot of your H window to check your faction.
In all seriousness, getting a guild into the top 500 isn't that hard. You just need active people that can play a variety of builds, and most definitely, a Vent or TS server. Becoming good at playing those builds shouldn't be a problem for any veteran to the gaming world because so much of it is just team coordination. (No, I'm not saying after 2 hours of play time you can hit top 300. I'm saying if you're skillfull and have picked up some basic game knowledge (not to be confused with "skill"), then you can play competently - if you can't learn to press T after 100 hours, you're terrible; and builds aren't a problem because you can steal them off forums with ease).




EDIT:

Oh yeah, new skills can be found at guildwiki.org and gwonline.net. I think wiki has been having trouble recently, though.

The word is 'prove' Hella. You sound like you're about 12.

It's the 3rd section, and if it was priority #1, it would be first wouldn't it?

I believe that's correct. Like I said, it's only your current bar that matters in whatever build you're in. It's not like other games where your uber loot stacks, and you do start with a level 20 character, with a max weapon. The other 900 skills or whatever you have unlocked aren't making your current bar better. Does that mean you just install the game and you're instantly a top player? No, but you don't have any skill yet anyway.

Again, unlocking skills gives you options, but you're only working with your current bar. Unlike other games of the genre (and I'm not sure what would define a CORPG, since it's just some term they came up with for themselves.. one of many), there isn't a grind to the max level and lots of time spent getting great equipment that can allow you to compete at a top level. There are major differences in this game.

I think if you remove the accounts from players, or are selling them.. then yes that's a problem. But it's a hypothetical that really doesn't exist.. or is at least self-imposed. A team that's skillful enough to win that, has played enough to have the content unlocked already. Would they be at a disadvantage starting at scratch again? Sure.. but why is that important? People who have been playing, have unlocked things... and to be good, you have to have played. So I don't find it an important or relevant hypothetical. Does it prove that you're at a disavantage if you have nothing unlocked? Sure... but how about this hypothetical. Give 8 people who have never played the game, accounts with UAX.. and have them go up against your hypothetical team. Who would win? Skill's more important, but it is relative thing. You have to have both, and you gain both by playing.. so it works out.

I don't think you can compare this game to rts's, fps's, or other genres in that way. If you want a more valid comparison, compare it to EQ, WOW, COH, etc. I think as far as grinds go, and being competitive earlier, it compares very favorably.

I don't see anywhere where it says that you start with all content unlocked.

The first couple months were nothing like the current environment. I was in the same situation, and it eventually led me to leave the guild I was leading. Since then, they've added faction, increased faction dramatically, lowered experience per level, made ascension give a flat bonus, moved balthazar priests, added scrolls, added cheaper scrolls, added chests, removed capturing from live bosses, removed attribute points, etc. Content is unlocked considerably faster in all aspects of the game than it was when it was released. I would agree that on release, they didn't have a very good rate of content being unlocked, and considering there wasn't any faction.. this did force you to play pve. I think they've made a lot of good changes since then however.
The first couple months though? Yah, that blew.. makes me wish I bought the game half a year later than I did. That was certainly a grind and I had UAX before faction was increased. But hey, I'm glad they made it better for other people and for new players. If you don't think it's enough, I don't understand why you're still playing? If you aren't enjoying yourself and feel like you've been lied to and deceived.. why are you bothering?


Can you read? I don't see anywhere where UAX is promised or even considered. RPGs have character progression, and while 'skill > time' is a theme in this game, that doesn't mean you're going to start with everything. A lot of people like that element and play the genre for that reason. If you give out everything right away, or make the unlock rate extremely high.. you're going to have people complaining about reaching full potential more quickly than they wanted to. You can look through this thread and see people already mentioning that, and how a higher unlock rate in factions isn't considered a positive for them.

I don't see the word pve anywhere in there. So, no.. actually I didn't.

Well, I prefer to play with people who know the game pretty well.. and aren't just buttom mashing robots. Hitting T, and mashing a few buttons in a certain order isn't good enough. But you're right, that can be sufficient depending on the role.. and that's already possible now. That person might be limited to how many builds they have content for, but again..that's probably appropriate if you're giving them something simple enough like you described. If you remove the decision making, awareness of the battlefield, and just overall game intelligence that leads to winning a game.. and you just want a button mashing monkey.. then you can give people a bar to unlock and have them capable of doing that within a day. That's already very possible. While they're gaining faction playing button mashing monkey #1, they can use that faction to unlock another bar and they can be button mashing monkey #2 next time.

If you want people who are capable of playing at a much higher level, then they've already played enough pvp to have UAX.

If you have a guild you're playing with, you can still make a build involving anything new in factions.. and just unlock those things first. With the faction you make from that build, you can plan others. You don't have to touch pve at all.

That's spin doctoring. It's got its own heading, it brazenly shouts that this is the game for you if you want competitive PvP, and it has no disclaimers of time needing to be spent before you can begin.
It is not correct, or my premade example would work. You admit that WM couldn't claim the GWWC using premades, so it obviously isn't simply your skill: You must have an unlocked account (Or enough unlocked), and that takes time to achieve.
There's grind to get the skills and get those options. Honestly, and I'm getting a bit tired of repeating this but it's the answer to every one of these claims that having skills open doesn't matter, get WM to win the GWWC with premades and I'll buy that it's only those 8 skills that matter. Until then, it's having the 8 skills that you want and your team needs that matter, and that's not currently available.
It's incredibly important. If you're a master gamer and learn things very fast, you could sit down and within one match be good at your character and job. Unfortunately, you couldn't compete in a top guild against the other top guilds, because you wouldn't have the skills to be able to. Your skill would not matter, because you hadn't spent the time unlocking. And that hypothetical situation alone destroys ArenaNet's, and your, claims.
None of those games claim to be competitive. If you wish to compare it, you need to compare it with other games designed for player vs. player matches. It is not trying to compete directly with other MMOs, and you can not compare it directly to them.

You can't prove ArenaNet has delivered what they promised unless you can demonstrate that the 8 skills you have on your bar can be anything and you'll be able to compete with the top level players using that (Possibly random) bar. Since GW doesn't work that way, you're not going to have much luck with this argument.

Well, my point was that I don't think the game's #1 priority is pvp. I think from a business standpoint, that they make more money from the casual gamer playing through pve.. and so to think that we're the people who they do and should cater to the most.. is probably not accurate. That's just a guess though, maybe there are more pvper than pve, but I'd be surprised.

I think my hypothetical proved it. Your team would win. Making skill more important than time spent. That's the point they seemed to be making to me. I didn't think they implied that you didn't need 'any' time spent to be competitive, just that it wasn't the most important factor.

I don't think that's possible. There's much more to the game than just knowing your own bar. You want to know your whole team's bar, what makes the build work.. and that's just stuff that should be reflex... the focus in a match should be on what the other team's doing and reacting. Nobody new to the game is going to know 900+ skills like the back of their hand, be able to anticipate what's coming, countering what the other team's trying to do, and doing everything else that makes them a good player that contributes towards a victory at a high level. Knowing their own bar and job is just a starting point. That would be like knowing how to dribble in a basketball game. It's fine that you do and a requirement, but that just has to be an inherent skill by the time you're in a game... you have to be able to react to everyone else and your basic skills like dribbing, shooting, passing, etc.. have to be automatic things that you don't have to think about. Even with your master gamer, there's too much to know to be a top caliber player to be able to figure it all out in one match.

I never had a necro in PvE, and I have all the necro skills unlocked. I'm not bothered by this new system.

I would like to offer an apology to Weezer_Blue. In an earlier post on this thead, I accused him of having never made a single positive post about the game.

Well, seeing as how it's Easter and all, I was feeling kind of bad about saying that. So, I had my assistant (yeah, she loves me) go through your last 100 posts, ignoring the pure build-discussion ones, and sort them into categories.

The results:
Negative and Insulting:8
Negative:24
Neutral but Insulting:11
Neutral:27
Positive:5

So, you see, my statement was wrong. You have, indeed, made positive posts. My apologies.

You make your assistant do that? Looks like you owe her an apology...

Maybe that's a good day, for her. ^_^

point proven by your posting history on every site

you were one of the loudest leaders of the UAS/UAEVERYTHING so yes on that.
i have never called or even implied that you were a noob or nooblike.

i am a casual player so hardcoreness does not apply

there is a vast differene between casual competitive and hyper obsessive competitive

if you are not having fun with a game and from your posts you are not than find something you like better.

you keep posting as though you think if you and yours post long enough Anet will still cave in and give you what you want.

and your beloved top guild was made up of a group of people playing from early beta that thought they were demigods who would casually trade off top spots on the ladder while all the noobs were at the bottom.

with an equal start your guild found out that it wasnt so top after all and shattered.

note that a PVP player stated the craptacularness of a bunch of skills but you still insist on having them all

EDIT

i still recall one of those so called high guild members review just after the early start.

they dominated from the start and had a nice string of victories.
that afternoon late they came up against a blood is power group with superior runes.

the game was close but finally the string of victories was broken.

result as posted on the review site?

obviously the other team had farmed for a couple hours for all those runes (remember Riverside at 50 runes an hour)?

his review continued that rather than spend a little time getting runes to match the other side they quit.

that is right they quit calling GW an item based game not worth their while since they couldnt win constantly out of the box.

k wow lol...

first up, im going to clarify one of my previous statements, coz some people failed english or something and need some help.

a PvP'rs perspective of their OWN enjoyment counts for more than anyone elses.

ie. if bob says he likes to play checkers, no matter what anyone else says, it would be reasonable to assume that bob does indeed like to play checkers.

if a PvP'r says he cannot enjoy the game without having UAX (not the button, just that state of having your account UAX'd), then nobody else can say that the PvP'r would actually enjoy as much when not having UAX.

just like, a PvE player (like myself in actual fact kthx) might say - i like missions like THK and RingOfFire missions, coz they enforce a certain 'work together' mentality that makes the game more fun.

now onto the current issue concerning what is guild wars advertised as:

1-Rather than labeling Guild Wars an MMORPG, we prefer to call it a CORPG (Competitive Online Role-Playing Game)
2-you'll prove your worth with every battle as skill, not hours played, decides your fate.
3-The unique skill system in Guild Wars encourages infinite experimentation but doesn't allow early choices to limit a character.
4-you can choose to create a character specifically for head-to-head PvP competition or guild warfare
5-The game is designed to reward player skill and teamwork, not time spent playing, so you won't need to spend hundreds of hours leveling up your character to compete.
6-You will have access to many more strategic options, due to the expanding nature of the skills
7-does not require players to spend hundreds of hours slogging through the preparation just to get to the fun bits

Im going to give my opinion on these written statements by Anet, and what my expectations were as a consumer looking to purchase the game. this is going to be a long post - you have been warned

1-i felt that one of the large focuses was on the competition aspect, now the word competitive is only the one word including the statement online roleplaying game. so i think it is accurate in that this statement includes both aspects of the game, the competitive pvp portion, and the adventuring pve portion. the fact that there are so many skills and no 'uber loot' amongst a minority (or atleast if you discount the minor effects of hod sword etc.), says to me that the game was designed to allow for fair competition.

2-this is the source of the 'skill > time played' statement. it doesnt mean skill is the only factor, it means skill is more significant than time played. so by itself as a statement - i think yes anet delivered.

3-encourages infinite experimentation, yes you have a fair degree of experimentation available IFF you have a significant number of skills unlocked. (IFF = if and only if, for those who dont know). so i would say that though the system is ultimately there for experimentation, it does not encourage it early on, it infact directly limits it by way of requiring unlocks via faction/skillpts.

4-you can choose to make a character specifically for pvp, however the term 'specifically' can have several meanings. ie. does it mean specifically only accesses pvp locations and forms of play? does it mean specifically as in designed to be successful at pvp? etc. personally i think that it was intended to mean the latter, however if you start fresh, you cannot design a character to be successful for pvp straight away, you can play a character, and be successful - but there is no design element. so the best i can offer is that it was to be interpreted as the former definition.

5-you wont need to be spend hundreds of hours levelling up to compete. correct, you dont need to level up to compete. but you do need to spend hours of collecting skillpts/faction to compete. however this is very much subjective to ones definition of compete.

(as an aside here is my interpretation of the concept of 'compete' - i take this to mean the case you see at the olympics, ie. people of comparable ability and opportunity attempting to do better at some activity than each other. i take this interpretation based on the meaning of 'competitive' in a sentence like 'if you want to get that job you have to be pretty competitive' and the use of the word in the acronym CORPG. ie. i see it as a term relating to equivalence of capability in a realm of competition).

6-there are many strategic options, and infact as you collect more skills, the options are very much 'expanding'. ie. more options = more and more options (for those mathematically inclined - exponential - though its not quite that much). i agree wholeheartedly, and infact this is in many ways - the core of enjoyment for PvP'rs - ie. coming up with something strategically viable out of the multitude of options and proving ones ability in making it work.

7-slogging, hours, fun bits? i give to you several methods for unlocking, so that a PvPr that wants to design from a full palette of skill options (a PvP'rs concept of fun - if you dont agree - thats ok, you might not be a PvPr - so youre concept of fun isnt necessarily applicable to another persons):
the most faction you can earn in 2 hours -
GvG -> 1 win every 4mins = 30 wins -> 2560*30 = 76,800 faction
personally i think that calculation is ridiculously optimistic for a first timer in a gvg match with no experience. but hey - lets look at half full glasses.
77k faction is enough for 75% of a profession (not including runes), if youre hoping to get that UAS then youve got another 14 hours.

that's 16 hours and still not even UAX, and at insane faction rates (flawless and max reward at 1600+ rating within 4mins).

16 hours of any activity where you are actually not playing for pure fun but because you want to get to a point where you feel (as a pvp'r) that you will be fully realising the fun factor of the game, is what i might possibly consider slogging (i understand its done playing pvp, but its with limited options, and the whole experimental thing goes out the window as you strive for FOTM proven skills to maximise your chance to win and earn faction - and again a players perception of their OWN fun is the only opinion that counts when discussing that players experience of fun).

the other options is pve running for skill quests -
this is a bit more arbitrary. i can get run from ascalon to ascension in about 4 hours under excellent conditions (no fails, all expenses paid running trip). i can get those 15 attrib quests done and be collecting elites within another 1 hour. doing all those skills quests once i got full droks can probably be done in 3 hours. quick runs through early missions for extra skill points nets me around say 30? under ideal conditions and might take another hour if im fast.

so after 9 hours ive unlocked - 90 skills from quests, 30 from skill points. 120 skills in 9 hours, is atleast 25+ hours. hell ill just jack up that 30 skill pts to umm say 60? just in case i screwed up calculations. thats STILL only 150 skills per 9hours (assuming you remake with a different class combo), and crap its still 25+hours.

notice how in both cases ive tried very hard to skew the numbers towards a favorable - hell even <10hrs would be nicer - outcome involving the least amount of slogging to get to the fun bits?

obviously these cases arent realistic and the hours invested is in fact significantly higher.

there is levelling and loot grind in wow before you get a decent chance at competitive pvp.
there is unlocking grind in guildwars before you get a decent chance at competitive pvp.

where grind is a concept that only a player can decide for himself is true, because grind is the experience of disatisfaction or frustration with having to do some task in order to get access to another task/reward which you would enjoy significantly more.

*the UAX button isnt going to happen anytime soon.
*i do agree having more options in pve for variety of builds is good, youre right, fire ele's everywhere just plain sux.
*the repeatable quest system is either going to compete with elite area quests like fow and uw, in order to keep pace with prophecy skill acquisition, or it will be slower.
*pvp only players, and new players looking to only play pvp, have no easy entry into the game that allows them to start having their fun without slogging/grinding

this is why we need to come up with solutions, as the GWWC shows, pvp is a significant part of the marketing that anet and ncsoft do to attract new players. considering that the pve portion is in competition with a lot of other much more popular MMORPG games, maximising the number of incoming players from pve AND pvp interests, obviously makes sense to improve the community and keep the game going in the long term.

my suggestions are (in no particular order):
-player contributed premades (from the pvprs of top guilds)
-variety amongst premades, im talking maybe 20-30 premades
-no unlocks necessary for runes (there is no real viable method to pve unlock them, it almost has to come from faction)
-'silver' unlocks, every time you unlock an elite, you get access to 2 other non-elite skill unlocks for free, that remain until you delete that pvp character
-'gold' unlock, for 10,000 faction you can unlock all skills/runes for a pvp character that remain until you delete that pvp character
-another faction increase, possibly double rates
-'passive' faction, for every match you observe, you earn 50 faction
-'betting' faction, during observer mode, you have a tick box selection for the teams playing, selecting one tick box is permanent for the duration of the match, if you pick the winning team - the earlier you pick it, the more faction you win. there is no penalty for picking the wrong team.
-'transferable' faction, faction from any source can be transferred to your balthazar faction pool (but not back the other way)
-the GW:F repeatable quests award skill points rather than xp, gold is around the 500-1000 mark atleast

these are some ideas that might be used individually or in some combination that i think might help pvp'rs get into the game easier and enjoy it more early on the process - i dont believe they hurt or hinder pve play in anyway, and i think it can enhance experimentation and variety amongst players.

thanks

/zomgstoopidlybigpostdonekthx

Blimey, I really think (after having gone through this thread) that the best thing for ANET to do would be to completely separate the PvP and PVE games. Develop them separately and don't have them affect each other in the slightest.


It would make me happy, as then I wouldn't have WaW and favour affecting my PvE game. Give the PvP players UAS/UAX - would not bother me in the slightest.

You're busy making additions to the statements, and that's not cool. The easiest example is this quote: "Success in Guild Wars is always the result of player skill, not time spent playing or the size of one's guild."

There is no extra "after unlocking basic skills", allowed by that statement: It is absolute. There is no "after spending time learning the game" either. It is "Success ... is always the result of player skill, not time spent playing." You can not change the statements that ArenaNet's development team have made by stating that you don't believe they intended to imply things, this statement is very, very basic and not open to interpretation.

By ArenaNet's own statement, how long you spend playing should have no impact on your success, but it does. In PvE it does not, you go in and start immediately succeeding at the game. (Winning missions and moving through it) In PvP though, you're screwed: You go in and you will begin your adventures in GW by losing, even if you're already the best player in the world. You'll get set up against someone less skilled than you but with a better team build unlocked, and you will lose. That means your success in part of GW, its PvP, is not always the result of your skill.

If you want, you're free to make your own statements. My entire point has been that ArenaNet's statements have not been met, and the statements themselves do not leave room for interpretations -- they are very precise.

to quote the box since at least 50 per cent of the buyers may have read the box.

You`ll prove your worth with every battle as skill, not hours played, decides your fate.

your interpretation may be different but i take that flat statement to mean some little jerk cant grind for 12 hours a day as in wow for example and have a level 60 (70/75? with the expansion) and simply brush your level 40 character aside by brute force on a whim no skill needed.

more power every hour until practically invincible

simply avoid anybody near your own level and nobody can stop you

to me that does equal skill over time played being the exclusive winning factor.

example

you are level 20 with UAEVERYTHING

i found a hack which lets me play using level 50 stats (health, energy, attributes to 25 in 5 places) and all i have to do is grind until i make all those levels.

what chance would you have against that?

your top 8 guildies?

You're interpreting again, the statement has a very literal meaning that you're ignoring. If you can't install the game fresh (As an experienced player) and jump into GvG with as high hopes of winning as you would have on your UAX account, then its your opponents' hours played giving them the edge over you, and the statement has failed. Your opinion that it refers to grinding giving you an edge in WoW is irrelevent, because the statement makes no mention of "after enough time played to get basic skills". Plus, WoW actually has the exact same thing: If you play long enough to max out your character, you'll be competitive based only on your skill. GuildWars is exactly the same as that, if you play long enough to complete your character (Not UAX, to unlock the build you need for your team) you'll be on even footing with your opponents. It's only a matter of scale, but GW == WoW.

In any case though, I used a different statement (directly from ArenaNet's FAQ about GuildWars), and you're trying to disprove my analysis of that statement with your interpretation of a different one? This is how arguments get muddled up.

Why are you putting UAE up against a hack, how is that relevant?

Guild wars does not have 1337 equipment, instead you have skills.

Oh and runes and weopon mods, they help as well.

It took me 1 hour ish to learn the mechanics of the game, once i learned the mechanics of the game i learnt that better weopon mods, and a better selection of skills make my toon more powerfull, as i can adapt to any situation. Yet it takes hundreds of hours to unlock all the skills and buy the mods and the runes. My charachters that have full skills unlocked can do much more than my newer charachters with only a small set of skills & equipment, therefore time played = advantage.

Anet said that "skill, not hours played, decides your fate".

When i cant beat X because i dont have the neccassary set of skills unlocked, then time played and not skill is what matters.

why is that so hard to understand

one other thing that tilts toward my interpretation.

this was seen by more people than the site and probably the box combined.

2 page PCGamer ad.

title

*your skill counts more than hours played*

left panel a petite x profession female standing with the caption of about 50 hours played

right panel a big male warrior lying flat on his back with the caption of 400 hours played.

i think an illustrated example like that is worth at least contemplating as it gives x hours for each not jump in and go equal.

the only way an experienced person could jump right in at the top level is UAS and as Anet clearly said about that before release.



and to lunch i go

Oddly enough, I never saw nor heard of that ad. Besides that, I have two quotes from different parts of the web site that don't include any measure of time. You'd think they could adjust their web site (Since it is easily editted) to include time measurements if they wanted to convey the true state of the game. Since they haven't adjusted it, we can conclude that they wish to portray their game as one that you can be competitive as soon as you install a new account...and that's just not true.
I never said they could. In fact, I've been saying this whole time that they can't, but that ArenaNet still has statements up on their web site insisting that time spent playing is not at all important (As in, it has no impact whatsoever) to how well you can do. You keep trying to dodge that, but it's not going to go away.

Well, it seems I'm not the only one that took a different meaning from those statements. Again, your hypothesis is based on something rather irrelevant (very experienced player, clean account). I could care less if someone who was banned or sold their account can't create a new one at no disadvantage.

If you want to pick out one line in some faq and insist that you've been lied to and the victim of false advertising.. and just be pissed out about it.. then go ahead I guess. You know the situation now, and know it won't change.. so you can stop playing the game and not buy future installments.

Who says you can't? Even if you assume you absolutely want to jump into GvG the moment you installed your game, you still have the pre-made builds Anet gives you. Surely if you were skilled, you could play those and use them effectively?

All the builds are on roughly the same level. They only vary in the situations in which they're the most advantageous.

This is an issue of skill, not time spent.

Obviously, there is an element of time involved, if you want to get better. You need to play for a long time in order to learn enough to know which builds counter which and are good in what situations. During the course of this time, you WILL have earned the capability to make this happen. You will have earned it very fast. People, please don't spout all that whining about UAX.

Some of you claim that your character, without having spent 200 hours to unlock all the skills, will never be as effective as someone who has. Others have pointed out to you that you take 8 skills with you, period. Yet you refuse to believe that a person with only those 8 skills unlocked will do worse than a person using those 8 skills, but with 180 more unlocked.

What advantage does the person with 188 skills unlocked have? He can change his build in a second. Can he do this in the battle? I think not! What's he going to do, quit, then come back and challenge you for a rematch?

If you have a good build, stick with it. There is absolutely no reason why you MUST switch builds every time you compete. In a short amount of time, you will have unlocked all the skills you need. Let's not be greedy.


Of course, ALL OF THIS IS BESIDES THE POINT.

Buying skills with quest rewards in PvE instead of getting skills as the reward in PVE makes NO DIFFERENCE whatsoever on PvP. Some of us believe it will be faster to get the skills you want, whereas others believe it won't be. We won't know until the game comes out. Regardless, the new system will allow you to get the skills you want first.

PvP is not the issue here. Those of you disgruntled with it should voice your gripes in a relevant thread.

O rly? I didn't know that was written there.

Everyone knows it was for the beta weekend. We want to know why it isn't in the final game, and so far the only answer we have recieved is "because it was never intended to be there". That's not an answer any better than "because". I hate illogical idiots. Go GvG, get some PvP experience, stop being an idiot, read the points made by every gamer on the forums, and then come back here a little more educated and maybe we could find compromises. As it is, the stubborn idiocy of players is holding the game back.

No team full of premades could ever, under any circumstances, beat a team with a real build. Not to mention runes and weapon mods. Not a single of the premades are up-to-date for the current metagame, have all been nerfed by skill rebalances, and are otherwise terrible. Go do some GvG before you argue - I certainly did an assload of PvE before I said anything about it.

People interpret things differently

If i read "skill not time spent"

i take that to mean if i start the game, the only disadvantage i will have facing someone who has played for 400 hours is that i simply havnt learnt to play.

Thats not true, skills, runes, and weopon mods give an advantage.

If you want to interpret it differently then thats your call, but too many people take it as its said.

for those people, if you want faster unlocking or uas for PVP, its not going to happen for whatever reason Anet wont tell us.

So if you interpret it the same way i do and your into the PVP, either put up with the gind or stop playing and dont buy factions (this is not a flame, but simply those are your options).