In response to definition of DOT AoE

This is to branch out thread of discussion from closed thread
Elementalists and Mesmers, extinct in PVE?

Actually you right in one thing. My definition was slightly broken. It is not "more than one damage cycle per cast". It is more like "damage from the same source faster than every 2 seconds".

Now definition of "source" can be rather unclear. Yet I can prove that Barrage should be triggering scattering by doing similar thing with ele spells. Yes, you heard me right - I can cast two AoE non-DOT spells (simply because eles dont have AoE spell with less than 2 seconds recharge) and cause scattering.

In fact I actively exploit Fireball + Flameburst combo for defenisive purposes. Easy to try to: Get some melee mobs on you. Cast Fireball. Cast Flameburst.
Unless they got caugh in the middle of casting healing signet (or you got interrupted), they WILL run 100% of the time.
I also noticed that mobs run from my meteor shover if I had a fastcast on Rodgort's Invocation.

I think this clearly proves that if two different instant damage AoE spells can cause scattering, then so should Barrage.

Now regarding SS: I still fail to see fundamental difference with firestorm.
Firestorm is cast on a target, and so is SS. Firestorm deals damage to target and foes around it, and so does SS. The fact that SS AoE moves around with initial target doesnt stop it from being DOT AoE, it just makes it damn good DOT AoE with same energy cost and castime, half recharge time and damage thru the roof.
If that still does not convince you that SS should cause scattering then tell me the difference with Mark Of Pain. I think you got my point.

Regarding SS: Fundamental difference is self activation

Firestorm - If you stand there you have no choice but to take damage. The only way to stop taking damage is to leave the area.

SS - You take damage if you choose to do something (attack/skill/signet).


As of now, enemies will cast through Backfire, attack through SS and Empathy, attack with Ineptitude and Clumsiness on them.

I think this is why SS does not trigger the AOE-run-like-hell behaviour from the AI. Its based on them making a choice to continue fighting. And right now they are too dumb to stop.

SS is not DoT. DoT means Damage over Time, meaning a spell, condition, or hex that results in continual damage directly from the spell, over a fixed period of time with the same damage dealt per integer (of /s).

Examples - conjure phantasm, firestorm

Not DoT - barrage, spiteful spirit

AoE fleeing isn't caused by DoT. It is caused by 2 AoE strikes within a period of 3 seconds.

That said, you're right that SS is pretty messed up to not trigger it. It still should cause fleeing if a monster is damaged by it twice in 3s. However, it's nice that it doesn't

only if SS is on you. Otherwise it is the same thing.

Again the whole point is AoE factor and neither of spell you mentioned has that. Why would you run from empaty? You would probably stop attacking but not run.

actually it is. Taking into account PvE side of discussion the damage is as continual as it gets, since mobs will continue attacking at the same rate no matter what.

Im not arguing that its NOT causing AoE dmg. I'm trying to say that SS is not categorized as an AoE by the AI because of its activation.

The AI of the rest of the mob is probably not registering the damage as AOE because its caused by an ALLY.

The AI that the hex is on is turning a blind eye to the damage, the same way it turns a blind eye to backfire, ineptitude, empathy and other hexes.

Recipe for disaster id say ;P

ok i guess i misread you

Hmm, I see SS as being more of a triggered AoE that's easily triggered unless the mobs just stand there or run. A DoT type spell, from playing other games, usually would be poison, disease, etc. Because the amount of time that it's effect stays on you is what determines the damage of it.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damage_Over_Time

I think a DoT AoE would be something like a poisonous gas cloud or something similar, that would effect everything in a large area and cause damage over time.

Barrage = NOT a spell. Its a SKILL.

Triggering the scatter will not change things significantly it would be a pointless "fix". Leaving all things from the previous thread there all that the chicken run would accomplish is a slight drop in the efficiency of the kills. A good SS necro can put SS on the entire group in a short amount of time. So it triggers they run, they go heal they take damage. They never all scatter to the four winds they all stay fairly close together. Sometimes smaller groups will splinter off but there are almost always at least two of them in close enough proximity to maintain a consistent damage output of 82 for every action taken by the smaller group. Then they will of course immediately band back together to keep attacking and guess what? SS will still be on them and they'll take a massive damage spike and split again lather rinse repeat. The group still dies it just takes maybe ten more seconds. Outside of changing what the skill does entirely it cannot be "fixed" which suggests to me that it isn't broken in the first place. Fixing means you add or subtract something from the original to make it work as it was intended or work better. Fixing does not mean you scrap the original and make a new one. That's called replacing. Also I've seen everyone use Mark of Pain as some sort of support for their arguments that SS should trigger the chicken run. I was using MoP just last night and it didn't trigger the run either. They all just stood there taking their 42 armor ignoring damage. In fact I experimented with a MoP Barrage team and good god it works just about as good as SS. Hit enough of the enemy group with MoP then have the ranger barrage into it. It works extraordinarily well and does NOT cause the chicken run.

I find that MoP usually has to trigger 2-3 times before the mob will scatter. I haven't really sat down and done anything scientific regarding when they scatter so it's mainly through observation that I've come to this conclusion.

Maybe some actual experimentation is warranted.

I sat there and watched a group take multiple hits without scattering. I was in a helpful mood so I decided to help some people out with Galrath. They pulled a lot of aggro at the bottom of the ramp leading upo to old Galrath and I couldn't get SS on all of them so I popped MoP on the ones that I couldn't keep SS on and had the tank and the ranger target those. I know I watched it trigger at least five or six times with no scattering.

I still stand by my assertion that causing the scatter with SS will not change anything significantly. The effect is still mobile so outside of making it an immobile effect, I'd love to see how they justify an immobile curse, there isn't anything that can be done. They could lower the damage but all that would encourage is the pulling in of larger groups to offset the penalty since SS scales up the more mobs you cast it on. So if it did cause scatter about the only thing it would accomplish is to annoy people and not much else. It won't "fix " the skill since it is not broken in the first place. It will not balance the game because it will still be as effective a damage dealer as before. Still I've said my bit now. I'm completely finished with this debate. If you think it needs to be nerfed then start a petition. Get some signatures and I'm sure they will do it. It will add ten annoying seconds to my kill time and I'll still do more damage than an ele and the OP will still be upset because of that and in the end the fix proposed by the OP won't change what they wanted changed in the first place which, from what I gathered, was a little more equality between the casters.

And why would you run from Spiteful Spirit? You would probably stop attacking but not run. Running from a hex is simply retarded because of what I have already mentioned, the AoE field moves with you.

If monsters ran from Spiteful Spirit it would hardly help them because the AoE field would move with them. The only reason it may help is because it causes the initial monster to stop attacking, but no matter how you put it, running from a hex is one of the stupidest things anyone can do.

THEN, you have to put aside the fact that it is not that easy for HUMANS, let alone a monster, to realise that they are being hit by Spiteful Spirit if they were not the inital target.

In PvP, players can warn other players that they have it on them, but other than that it's not that easy to figure out unless you are the original one it is cast on. Monsters should not have the intelligence to realise they are being hit by SS because it does not make itself obvious like Meteor Shower and similar spells.

Mark of Pain is different than Spiteful Spirit in that you control when the damage is caused, not the monster. Running away is the only/the best thing for someone to do in the case that they have MoP on them.

I am consitently impressed by how many Warriors/Rangers don't stop fighting through SS in RA/TA. Many times I'm able to get SS on two physically close targets. It's usually only then that they realize they'd better stop attacking. Something about 37/41 damage that a lot of human players don't seem to notice. The only other time I've seen Warriors/Rangers notice it is when they are either Frenzy/Tiger's Fury/Serpent's Quickness players. Then they definitely notice.

Also, the distinction between MoP and SS AoE is a bit fuzzy. I like mine better:

MoP --> externally triggered by physical damage.
SS --> internally triggered by attacking/skill usage.

Both still cause AoE to those allies near to them.

Nein. The mobs can take additional actions, causing more hits, or be slowed, causing less. Its damage/action, which while closely related to damage/time in PvE is not classed under the same definition.

I think Melech's idea is the most plausible at the moment.

DoT is damage/time right?

So the question is really over semantics. We can all agree that certain skills/spells do some amount of Damage over Time. However, I think most people participating in this thread would agree that the classical notion of DoT has to do with a constant value of damage over a finite period time. This value is always the same and always repeatable.

I would say that the distinction is whether or not DoT is constant.

For things like conditions, hexes and AoE (like Firestorm/Lava Font/Maelstrom/Chaos Storm) the Damage/Time value is constant. On the other hand we have things like SS/MoP that do not have a constant Damage/Time over time value. The reason they don't is that their damage is a factor of the player's ability to click/not click, skill choice, reflex reaction time and internet ping times. Since these are all variable you can never truly have a constant Damage/Time value for SS/MoP.

I can move out of AoE and stop taking damage. It is entirely my choice to stay there or not, for both SS and Firestorm. True, I can not run from SS if it is on me, but that exactly the part of discussion that is irrelevant to AoE effect.
One could ofcourse say that I will get hit by firestorm at least once before I move, but same goes for SS. Both of those spells are conditional, and I still fail to see how Firestorm is a DOT spell and SS isnt.

how does this make any difference? By your logic skills allowed to be broken and spells not?

I guess my question is what is the end resulted wanted for all this semantics?

To nerf Barrage (A bow attack) and SS (A self triggering hex) so that bad guys run from it the same as they do from AOE spells?

yes, pretty much

Firestorm and SS are not DoT in the classic sense of the term. DoT implies there is a constant and consistent degeneration of health. A DoT can be tracked and will always do the same damage in the same amount of time. That is to say if you get hit with poison and it does, say 1 point of damage per second, it will always do one point of damage per second and it will do it every second until the spell ends. Now I want to say this and I know this point has been brought up before but I guess you aren't grasping it. Running will not fix the issue. The only thing you can do to fix it is stop doing anything. Do not use skills do not attack and you're fine. So yeah let's make the AI do that. That will solve the problem of it being "overpowered" then instead of doing mass amounts of damage and killing quickly that way all an SS necro will have to do is cast SS throughout a mob and it's like mass pacifism which will in turn lead to an imbalance in the game. This is one of those things where there is no good solution so you must choose the lesser of two evils, which in this case, is to just shut up and deal with it and get on with your life.

very clever move Strobo... lets turn another thread into meaningless flamewar so that it get closed and nothinng ever gets resolved...
How about no? How about you shut up and move on? Im sick and tired of you picking out stuff out of context trying to make opponent look like an idiot.
Oh and btw you in ignore list now, kthxbye.

SS looks like a DoT because PvE mobs are dumb enough to attack right through it every time, all the while sticking together close enough to put a huge strain on the collision-detection system.

Ok well if I'm ignored then you'll miss my apology. It was not my intention to "flame you." I'm sorry if it came off that way. I was simply trying to add some valid , at least I think it's valid, input into this discussion. I can be abrasive but that's just the way I am. I'm not trying to get personal with you or anything.

I think barrage shouldnt trigger the AOE effect. Why? Because you have to press the button every time.

In this logic, single burst AOE should be fixed for AI. Ie: Flameburst and fireball wont trigger them running away.

Now for SS.

SS isnt really an AOE, its a shutdown, self activating hex similar to:

Empathy, Diversion, Ineptitude, Insideous Parasite, Guilt, Clumsiness, Spirit of Failure, Spirit Shackles, Price of Failure.

All these hexes have 1 thing in common. If you follow the specified condition of the hex (usually attacking) while the hex is on you, then something happens to you AND if you dont follow the specified condition of the hex, nothing happens.

Simple.

The real problem with SS, is unlike all those other hexes, it can hurt your fellow teammates. It is an AOE shutdown skill. The damage that results from SS can be considered a side effect, or bonus to the shut down properties. The damage is not a direct result by the enemy hexing you, but rather by the target who is hexed. This is what makes it very powerful. This is also the reason why some people are crying foul, because it achieves similar effect to firestorm (and such), but doesnt trigger the AOE reaction.

But looking at HOW the hex works, its very obvious that SS is a different in application to a spell like Firestorm. Firestorm's purpose is to cause damage to a large number of targets. Wether or not you choose to get out of the way is irrelavant, because firestorm is meant to cause damage to you. While you have SS on you,you can do two things. Keep going and take damage, or stop attacking, etc. Either way, SS has done its job.

So what to do about it? Nerf the skill? Modify mob AI?

I think the best viable thing to do is to make the target who has SS on it to stop attacking.

So by your definition I can't stand in Firestorm and get the same Damage/Time that I will always get? I think you're wrong about Firestorm. It's damage is constant over time and thoroughly repeatable. The only thing that limits damage is movement out of the AoE. SS, on the otherhand has damage that is directly related to how many actions and attacks the target performs. These are highly variable and I doubt if any two applications of SS will produce the same result. Hence my belief that SS is not truly a DoT skill while Firestorm is. I guess if you really want to limit the definition even further you could say things like Poison are only DoT, but these can be stopped prematurely as well with skills like Mend Ailment.

Cheers!

I don't think that's entirely correct either, that would be like assuming everything used on you that causes damage over a certain amount of time is concidered a DoT. Yes, DoT's can end prematurely (by mend ailment), or being set on fire could be counteracted with a HoT spell called healing breaze(for 10 seconds ally recieves +9 health regen = 90 health+divine bonus also removed by mend ailment I believe), draining somebody's health away with life transfer can be countered if not removed by hex removal. To me, firestorm is just an AoE with varying damage potential (and it's a classic AoE), and a DoT is something you're stuck with until removed or countered. Sometimes being set on fire only lasts 2-3 seconds, but during that time you recieve like -10 health degen or something (not really warranting a counter or mend bacause of the short time period) . Being stuck with something like disease (in other games I've played, not sure with GW) would be able to be cured, but you couldn't heal yourself during the duration of it, and it would slowly cause damage over time. Nobody to cure it or mend ailment it? Well, your stuck with it till it runs it's course, kind of like poison coursing through ones veins. You can self heal all you want in some circumstances, but it's gonna cause the same amount of damage everytime, and maybe even kill you if the duration is long enough.

maybe that would be logical thing to do, but it would leave barrage as is, which is not good.
I mean seriously there is no good reason why mobs shouldnt run from it, but if they would it only means that Barrager profession would actually require some *gasp* skill... timing Barrage, combining it with other bow attacks, instead of mindless wtfpwnage thru jerking single skill button.

Think about it. What you suggesting will make SS utterly useless in PvE. Im not trying to kill SS necros, Im trying to bring SS inline with other spells, so that it doesnt dominate PvE so freakin much for the cost of two slots on your skillbar.
Thats why the best in my opinion thing to do is to make monsters run from AoE of SS. There is no reason why hexed guy should run or stop attacking or whatever - same way as with empathy etc. But there is a good reason for his buddies that get hit by AoE to run.
That will have little effect on melee (provided you using tank with book/gear trick), but will make it much harder to kill rangers and casters (which is exactly what you will see in RA if you use SS).
This change would both make perfect sense, be inline with current AI, and alter SS just enough to not make it useless but rather require some tactics to use.

I think with barrage, it should be left the way it is, because for one, it's an attack skill. Barrage does take some skill to use if you want to fire up to 6 arrows everytime, but sometimes it's just 1-3 maybe 4 arrows on a single use, and isn't that overpowering. I don't think it should cause scatter because you actually have to prepare it, that takes time, then use it, then wait for the recharge, and use it again. If it hits up to 6 enemies, great, but most of the time it doesn't, so it's pretty much a waste of energy if you're not hitting 6 targets with it. Things that stay in large numbers, and all stand together, like imps for example, then you'll fire off 6 arrows. But that's only 6 arrows, and it's not hitting the entire group standing there, so it shouldn't cause scatter imo. If that's the way of thinking though, might as well go after cyclone axe and hundred blades.

Plus, it really seems like anything I've tried to explain in here is a big waste of time, it's like talking to a brick wall. If you want to create new definitions for DoT and AoE damage or combine both, and talk semantics then go ahead, I'm done posting in this thread. Makes no sense at all to me. I've already said I agree with SS being an AoE, although having to be triggered, and that's about it. Just like with empathy, minus the AoE.

Actually I took DOT definition exactly as described by the link you posted, compared it to SS and it matched perfectly. And you said no, and started making up new conditions on how its being triggered/removed and constant intervals... So if anyone making up new definitions it is you.

No, as already been explained frequently in this thread, Spiteful Spirit is a hex triggered through the monster's actions. To top it off, running away from either Spiteful Spirit or Barrage would be retarded, simply because it doesn't solve the issue. In my frank and humble opinion, you are being incredibly stubborn about this.

Besides that, nerfing Barrage would be taking away practically the only thing Rangers have in PvE anymore.

It is obviously not a AoE DoT in the eyes of AreaNet, or it would already have been covered by the nerf. Whether it is truely or not makes no difference, because AreaNet have apparently decided already.

If you want Spiteful Spirit to be nerfed, fine, maybe it is overpowered. But don't go trying to say it should have been nerfed before along with the update.

Either that or un-nerf the ele and smite spells. At the very least let me chain cast *different* spells and change the cost of the DOT AOE spells. I thought that would occur pretty fast and it really hasn't (hrmm - balth's aura anyone?)

I think some rangers and necros are starting to understand how us fire ele's and the handful of smite monks (some, like me, were using them in standard PvE as an interesting alternative to ele's, not as 105/55 farmers, though nothing wrong with the farmers) felt upon first seeing the enemies scatter. In time rangers and necros will most likely learn what it feels to have to cast a spell, count to three, cast next one, count to three, cast next and so on to keep from triggering the AOE damage. Or, even worse, see your favorite skill suddenly become totally useless, or heaven forbid you get the direct damage smite monk treatment and take an unpopular build with one or two good skills and make those totally worthless.

I suspect that they will get the same AI treatment at some point. Anet is obviously happy with the AoE stuff with the other spells and these fly in the face of that decision. I don't think it was ever really a skill reduction but (as they said - I see no reason for them to lie about it) an attempt to have PvE more like PvP. I just figure that casting through backfire, attacking under SS or empathy, and a host of other idiotic things mobs do will eventually be done away with but with factions coming out it is very low on thier list (after they get an expansion or two done lots of little bugs should be worked out and more time spent on stuff like this).

I think the main difference between mark of pain and spitefull spirit is WHO is doing the damage, SS it basicly is your teammate dealing the damage, he attacks, you take damage, whereas mark of pain triggers on taking (physical) damage

also, DoT is not like firestorm, DoT is damage over time, the same amount of damage over the same amount of time, witout inteferance, firestorms damage can be reduced, as can most other elemental/physical semi-DoT spells be, SS depends on the rate of attacking/skill-using, and isn't a set amount either.

degen spells allways do the same amount of damage over the same time-period no matter what you are doing and what the target is doing

as far as barage goes. it should trigger the AI AoE panic in the sense that it does damage like mark of pain does. but i guess the monsters don't have a thing to run away from, there is no Hex, no place, no nothing to run away from, and it is targeted at an enemy, so you can just switch enemy and do it again, so the AI does not have anything to run from

and as I already answered many times that makes no difference to AoE side of SS

oh yes it does, and I already explained why. Care to explain where exactly im being wrong about it?

which is what? Absence of skill?
Im pretty sure I explained that already as well. Your ignorace does not make things the way you like them.

thats a most retarded argument i ever heard

Maybe we should petition ANet to make the AI such that whenever it takes damage/pain it runs away. That's the logical end of this thread which I believe is a lot more about the AoE nerf than it is about SS.

SS usage would go completely unnoticed if it weren't for the prior changes to Elementalist/Monk AoE.

Overall, I don't see the value in changing monster AI to be more human like. This game's PvE is really a tutorial for the PvP portion of the game at the end. Thus, the AI in the PvE should be less smart than the intelligence the average human player will display in PvP. The game already does a fairly good job of increasing the difficulty as a player's character progresses through the storyline. In classical MMO/RPG style Guild Wars uses more monsters with deadlier skill combos and higher level to offset fairly typical AI.

Ira,

It's obvious that you're upset about SS Necros and B/P Rangers farming places like SF and UW2. I know it's hard to get a group there because these skills seem like the only ones in demand. However, I think you're going at it from the wrong angle. Instead of asking for a nerf on more skills (which only leads to more people upset in the player base) it's better to ask for improved level design. Levels that are well designed are much harder to develop cookie-cutter groups for. Most players when given the choice would choose to have levels that required mixed/balanced groups.

Hope I don't go on your ignore list over this last comment. (Though you wouldn't be the first person to put me there.)

Cheers!

I'm telling you triggering a chicken run on SS won't do anything but add ten annoying seconds to my kill times. The strategy of using SS is very simple. You hit one enemy with it then move on to the next then the next until the entire group has the hex cast on them. The mob AI will scatter, probably try to heal if capable and end up taking more damage at which point they will regroup for the attack and in turn they will take another huge damage spike and then scatter again, try to heal if able, take more damage regroup and then kill themselves in the next huge damage spike. Your only other alternative is to have them stop all action and run like a human player most likely would in the absense of hex removal. In which case all you do is turn the basic strategy into mass pacifism. What you will end up creating are warrior groups that take advantage of speed buffs and the increased damage taken by fleeing enemies to mow down entire groups who are fleeing and doing nothing with SS on them or you end up with ranger groups bringing SS along so they can take advantage of some Hunter's Shot nastiness on the enemies who are fleeing according to the suggest AI alterations. In fact the latter group would be highly effective if the AI was altered to make enemies with SS on them cease all actions and flee. You get +13 damage and 21 seconds of bleeding which they will not heal because of the AI forbidding actions while SS is cast. A single necro, or better still an SS necro and a battery could shut down entire enemy groups from all action whatsoever creating invinci groups where as before you just had single invinci characters. SS necros will never feel the sting of these nerfs because our skill isn't dependent on keeping them close togther. It works better but it still works if they run. In essence what you are asking for is pointless because it won't change anything aside from the time it takes to take out an enemy group. I hope my above comments have also demonstrated the one factor everyone who complains about these things always forgets. What you take away at one end you pay for at the other. You nerf a skill a loophole will be found. Because of the alterations you made in the nerf the loophole requires even more sweeping alterations to "fix". In fact this very situation you are so up in arms about is a result of them nerfing the 55 monk's damaging ability with enchant removals. Before a 55 monk could solo things. Now that they have to swap SoJ for Spell Breaker they need a partner to deal damage. That's where the SS Necro comes in. It took away their ability to solo but not their ability to function and to dominate certain environments. Now if this "fix" is ever implmented as you suggest then it will create an even worse epidemic. Now there will be groups that could dominate in any environment, that is if you follow the standard tradition in making the mob AI more in line with human AI. Eventually it becomes an issue of the exploits requiring so much nerfing to fix that the game itself becomes tedious. I think ANet realizes that sometimes you just have to let some things go.

/quote
Damage Over Time

Damage Over Time (otherwise known as DOT) are interesting because they aren’t exactly classed as taking damage. Whilst they aren’t complicated, they do deserve mention because of a few rather interesting properties.

While DOTs do deal damage to a player, most spell effects that revolve around a target taking damage are not triggered by the DOT damage type because the property it uses isn’t classed as damage.

A DOTs strength is measured in pips of regen. Each pip signifies 2 health per second. If you have negative pips (pips in the left direction) you are loosing life, whilst if you have possitive pips you are gaining life. The total amount of pips in either direction is capped at a maximum of 10. This cap is after all the additions of possitive and negative pips have been made.

For example, if someone has life siphon (-2), life transfer (-7 pips) and conjure phantom (-5) and mending (+3) on them, they will have a total of -11 pips. However due to the cap, the player will only suffer -10 pips (which is -20 life per second). The extra 1 pip isn’t lost, but is simply not applied.
/end quote

http://gwvault.ign.com/View.php?view...s.Detail&id=86

http://gwvault.ign.com/View.php?view....Detail&id=298

/quote
For example, a warrior/mesmer which heavily relies on DoT damage, using Conjure Phantasm and Sever Artery to do 8 pips of health degeneration. And you're so "lucky" to meet a warrior/monk who carries healing breeze.
/end quote

All taken from definitions found by doing a search in google "Guild Wars DoT damage over time". Still confused about what exactly a DoT is? I found thousands of definitions on google, and I can keep putting them up here for you if needed. None of these definitions are being made up by me, in fact, I knew what the classification of a DoT was a long time ago. But I guess obviously ALOT of people don't really know what a DoT is, otherwise they would of pointed this out to you first off. Because it sort of weakens your argument a bit when you don't have the classification or definition correct to begin with. This is only being put up by me to help strengthen your argument by the way, not meant to attack or annoy you. If you write up a suggestion to Anet about DoT AoE's, then they probably won't know what the heck your talking about for a while at first. Hexes fall into a seperate category but can be also concidered as DoT's, like conjure phantasm, phantom pain, life transfer, life siphon, suffering (a Dot AoE), etc. Necros have always been famous for DoT spells in alot of games, but Spiteful Spirit is in no way a DoT, hex, but not a DoT.

I was also reading in your suggestion thread, and it seems nobody there really had any idea of what a DoT was either. One guy even thought Meteor Shower was a DoT. But for me making up definitions, how about a big "how about no?" to that. Do it yourself once, and look at all the definitions and articles what not mentioning what DoT's are pertaining to Guild Wars, and you'll see I'm not making up anything at all. Another good way to tell if your inflicted by a DoT in game is to look at the color of your health bar. It turns hot pink when effected by a hex DoT, turns green when effected with disease or poison, turns dark red when effected by sever artery or when bleeding occurs, etc.

Oh, I guess I lied about not posting again, but I don't make up definitions about things. Did you read this part on my first definition giving the most common examples?

Examples

There are many ways a DoT comes into use during the course of a role-playing game. Here are a few practical examples. Keep in mind that Damage Over Time is not limited to these examples; the creativity of players and role-playing game designers allows for far more variations beyond these. The ones listed are the most common types.

* Burning: For character classes that are spellcasters, a DoT might take place when a flame spell strikes a target and causes that target to be set on fire, causing burn damage every second. The target may take damage from the initial strike of the spell.
* Bleeding: A non-caster such as a weapon-wielding “Melee” class may strike the target with a sword, causing the target to bleed, losing life either incrementally or at a steady rate.
* Draining: A spell may be cast for no other reason than to inflict damage slowly.
* Stealing: The target may have its life taken away to be given to the enemy who attacked it.
* Poisoning: The target may be the victim of a poisoning attack which remains until the poison is removed or the effect reaches its predetermined length.

The way I see it, the reaction of the AI to SS and Mark of Pain is inconsistent. (Won't be the only inconsistency in the game by a long shot.)

An ally of a foe hexed with SS or MoP sees: repeated AoE damage at a rate faster than once every two seconds (or some similar threshold).

In the case of MoP, this ally flees.

In the case of SS, this ally does not flee.

Inconsistent!

The point about SS being internal and MoP external doesn't enter into it. To the ally of the hexed foe, they're both external!

As regard to what I think should be done about this, I'd be satisfied with either making allied mobs flee from SS'd foes (making SS like MoP), or making allies not flee from MoP (making MoP like SS).

By the way, I fully support any updates to the AI that make them behave like somewhat skilled PvP opponents. Thus, for example, I have no problem with them spreading out to make Barrage ineffective.

Just one question. What would you call skills that damage a foe at equal increments, then? Skills like, say, Symbol of Wrath?

I was always under the impression they were DoTs, but with the definition you posted, it doesn't seem like it. I always thought that any skill or spell that had a specific function to deal damage at equivalent intervals and/or drain health, as opposed to dealing damage all at once, were called DoTs.

Which, by the way, SS is definately not. The 'equivalent intervals' rules it out right away as it is simply 'triggered' when circumstances are met.

SS != DoT

Edit:
I completely agree with this. Regardless as to the 'why' of it happening, the AI just simply needs to get smarter. Make it happen, Scatter with SS, attempt to space out (not scatter) with Barrage. Make it look like they panic a little when SS is hitting them.

Things like Symbol of wrath, are not DoT's because the type of damage they do, which is direct AoE damage at timed intervals to surrounding creatures. AoE being where the caster of Symbol of Wrath is standing. Direct Damage or DD being the key phrase here combined with an AoE. Another thing to notice is type of damage, holy in this case.

OK... but I was asking what would you, or rather we call it? I suppose your answer (taking out the AoE, because it was just an example), is "Direct Damage at Timed Intervals"? So perhaps, DDaTI?

I guess it could use it's own classification to seperate itself from standard DoTs.

Symbol of Wrath = DDaTIPBAoE (forgot that Point Blank addition, there)
Fire Storm = DDaTIAoE
Well of Suffering = DoTAoE
Spiteful Spirit = Just a damn Hex!

lol, no, I wouldn't go that far, it's just an AoE causing direct damage at timed intervals to creatures within the area of effect. So, I guess if you need to call it something you could just call it an AoE, because that's what it is. So, for a given area, if you cast fire storm, it might be the equivalent to say, lobbing a fire ball at all the enemies there, but instead put into one spell. A hex spell like SS has AoE damage consequences if the creature or person attacks or uses a skill. Like I said, these definitions were already there before I began playing rpg/pve type games, so it really doesn't matter what I want you to refer to it as, it's just the way it is.

Hey, ya, well of suffering IS a DoT AoE... another example, lol.