MM Nerfed??

Wow.

In PvE, with my non-minion master N/Me, I have soloed (without henchmen) almost the entire game (before the Ring of Fire). You just have to be diverse in your skill selection and don't go toe-to-toe with certain enemies. Kite like the wind.

In PvP, I love going one-on-one versus a warrior. 16 Curses + 12 Domination generally results in a very dead warrior very quickly.

I think that this forces Necromancers to get out of their cookie-cutter builds and be a bit more ingenuitive. And yes, minions can be a part of those builds, but maybe not the sole reason for the build.
I would love to see your build. My original is N/Me. I find that 16 in curses isn't worth it on most. Still, if you could share this build, I'd like to hear it.

Also, Golems are nice, but you can only have 1 at a time. IMO, Vamp Horrors should have limits as well or be weaker than fiends.

in about 30 min, I leave work, and if I like what I see, I ain't gonna be as pissed, but if I don't, ANet's definitely getting a nasty-gram.

I encourage others to email your displeasure as well.

You know what's sad?

2 things:
- Necromancers get Minion Master *cough* armour, which gives +10 AL when you have 3+ minions. VS recharges instantly unless you have 4+ Minions. To gain both effects, you have to have 3 minions at all times. 1 dies and you lose 1 benefit. You raise 1 more and you lose another. Talk about crap armour.

- Verata. Tyria's very own Minion Master. His name is now linked to a crappy Minion healing skill. Lore says that Verata was so powerful he made his own MM skills to make Minions live much longer, beyond their normal lifespan (Verata's Saccrifice), but also skills to steal minions from their master (Gaze and Aura). ANet shot itself in the foot here by screwing up their own Lore by nerfing Verata's Saccrifice.

So, when are they removing Verata from the game? You can't expect any serious player to consider VS "a skill to make them live beyond their normal lifespan"...
Heh.. nice catch.

So, Verata's a wannabe now. Interesting. VS was my main minion healing skill, but this nerf raises even more questions.



If you have to maintain minions, then what?
Say I steal a minion using Verata's Aura/Gaze. Do I get the -1 to mana regen or do you keep it? Is the -1 upkeep about control or life? (IE: if I kill that, does the minion die or become masterless)

How do Golems fit into this? Are they like minions or elite minions when it comes to binding?

When do I get iron golems, and what items will I have to use to animate them?.... wait, wrong game... oops.

this is sooo random... so whats next? nerf firestorm? Nope. Next up is Barrage. It will cost 10 energy and be easily interruptible. You heard it here first.

So can someone actually definatively prove that MMs are now worse than other classes, like BMs were for so long, or is this just a bunch of people crying about Anet nerfing something they like? First off, you should look at an MM skill bar. The MM skill bar has few attacks and all minion management skills. As such, the MM is support only. Their job is to make minions after things start dying. But, the MM themselves are frail and very easily killed. As such, an MM must use skills like Dark Bond and Infuse COndition to draw conditions to the minions. THis makes the minions weaker. It becomes a balance of weakenning minions and the master. If you go N/Mo, you can compensate a little by healing, but to be effective and not run outta energy, you need high soul reaping or offering of blood. either way, a MM is at his/her weakest when doing 1 of 2 things. Either A) Animating minions or B) Healing minions.

Why???

A) Animating Minions
3 second casting time makes them easy to interrupt. The cost is higher than most skills (15 min) and they can't move at all or they have to restart the casting. If you get a warrior or mesmer on them (even a ranger with distracting shot), you can prevent them from creating minions.

B) Healing Minions
All minion healing skills require a sacrifice. Sacrificing costs life. Just wail on a sacrificing necro. Sure, they can use monk skills to protect or heal themselves afterward, but because of the high costs for effective minions in death and soul reaping, points in healing are generally what's left over. Basically, a N/Mo won't be much stronger than a simple N (only) build for an MM.

oh... I should add C) Recovering energy)

Why... The best MM's require tons of energy. Since horrors are stupid, you need to go with Fiends. Fiends cost 25 per. Basically, you use fiends and horror in tandum. This way, your army will grow and be at high levels. How is this bad? Well, soul reaping gives a +1 per level. You need it failry high to keep up with the casting costs to be effective. And if enemies aren't dying enough, you need Offering of Blood to replenish lost energy. The problem here is that once again, you're sacrificing or out of energy. Weakness.


I could write loads of tutorials on how to kill an MM. They have so many weaknesses and are a huge liability. Basically, Kill the MM, and the minions turn on the party. Simple formula. In GVG, Warriors would go after me when I played MM. As soon as I was down, they didn't have to worry about my minions. The minions attacked whatever was closest (friend and foe) and died fairly quickly b/c of AOE skills used.

To honestly say that the MM is a strong build is foolish talk. It's useful, but also a huge liability. Especially when I've had 30+ minions, died, and my minions overtook my own party.

If you can honestly consider what I've said and still say the MM is too powerful, try reading it again. MM is useful primarily in the field. Very limited in PvP.. and even with Vamp HOrrors, you still can't say that MMing is all that powerful.

Just nerf the vamp horrors (by limiting their numbers) and you'll have a much easier answer to the problem of invincible MM's using VHorrors.

First off, you should look at an MM skill bar. The MM skill bar has few attacks and all minion management skills. As such, the MM is support only. Their job is to make minions after things start dying. But, the MM themselves are frail and very easily killed. As such, an MM must use skills like Dark Bond and Infuse COndition to draw conditions to the minions. THis makes the minions weaker. It becomes a balance of weakenning minions and the master. If you go N/Mo, you can compensate a little by healing, but to be effective and not run outta energy, you need high soul reaping or offering of blood. either way, a MM is at his/her weakest when doing 1 of 2 things. Either A) Animating minions or B) Healing minions.

Why???

A) Animating Minions
3 second casting time makes them easy to interrupt. The cost is higher than most skills (15 min) and they can't move at all or they have to restart the casting. If you get a warrior or mesmer on them (even a ranger with distracting shot), you can prevent them from creating minions.

B) Healing Minions
All minion healing skills require a sacrifice. Sacrificing costs life. Just wail on a sacrificing necro. Sure, they can use monk skills to protect or heal themselves afterward, but because of the high costs for effective minions in death and soul reaping, points in healing are generally what's left over. Basically, a N/Mo won't be much stronger than a simple N (only) build for an MM.

oh... I should add C) Recovering energy)

Why... The best MM's require tons of energy. Since horrors are stupid, you need to go with Fiends. Fiends cost 25 per. Basically, you use fiends and horror in tandum. This way, your army will grow and be at high levels. How is this bad? Well, soul reaping gives a +1 per level. You need it failry high to keep up with the casting costs to be effective. And if enemies aren't dying enough, you need Offering of Blood to replenish lost energy. The problem here is that once again, you're sacrificing or out of energy. Weakness.


I could write loads of tutorials on how to kill an MM. They have so many weaknesses and are a huge liability. Basically, Kill the MM, and the minions turn on the party. Simple formula. In GVG, Warriors would go after me when I played MM. As soon as I was down, they didn't have to worry about my minions. The minions attacked whatever was closest (friend and foe) and died fairly quickly b/c of AOE skills used.

To honestly say that the MM is a strong build is foolish talk. It's useful, but also a huge liability. Especially when I've had 30+ minions, died, and my minions overtook my own party.

If you can honestly consider what I've said and still say the MM is too powerful, try reading it again. MM is useful primarily in the field. Very limited in PvP.. and even with Vamp HOrrors, you still can't say that MMing is all that powerful.

Just nerf the vamp horrors (by limiting their numbers) and you'll have a much easier answer to the problem of invincible MM's using VHorrors. You could write a tutorial on how to kill x with any class. Are they actually worse then other classes now? And if that one build is worse now... maybe you should change it? Novel idea, huh.

Maybe, just maybe - they made this update because of PvE.

Just throwing that out there.

Peace,
-CxE The MMs in 12v12 were perceived strong because folks a) didn't have VA or VG unlocked at the time and b) had rarely had to deal with full blown MM armies in the PvP realm. This combination meant the MMs could run across the battlefield as conquering heros (who didn't hear a "Here comes the MM!!!!" cry during 12v12?). As the FPE went on tho, folks started to figure out how to beat massive army necros. Does anyone truly believe that if the FPE was a week long event that by the end MMs would have seen their success drop dramatically in 12v12s?

Did Anet hear/see these cries? Possibly. Is it also possible that they saw the sheer power demonstrated in ToPK, SF, ettin runs, Desert Solos, and other PvE areas? The old MMs enabled one player to perform multiple roles with a minimum of effort.

I would love to see your build. My original is N/Me. I find that 16 in curses isn't worth it on most. Still, if you could share this build, I'd like to hear it. There are a variety of Necromancer and Mesmer PvP builds that can be found throughout the forums, but here's some of the core skills I've been playing with:

16 Curses and 12 Illusion

Clumsiness
Ineptitude (E)
Distortion or Sympathetic Visage
Price of Failure
Faintheartedness (or Shadow of Fear if you're preparing for IWAY)

16 Curses and 12 Domination

Empathy
Wastrel's Worry (just in case they bring the hex helm or decide to sit still during hexes)
Spiteful Spirit (E)
Price of Failure
Faintheartedness (or Shadow of Fear if you're preparing for IWAY)

I've even played with a Crippling Anguish build, which helps with kiting those pesky Sprint/Rush warriors.

There are just way too many permutations to narrow it down to a single build that works all of the time. But some of these core skills really can put a cramp in a warrior's style, especially if they decide to attack through these hexes (or be stupid enough to Frenzy while they are in effect).

Quoted for relevance:

The MMs in 12v12 were perceived strong because folks a) didn't have VA or VG unlocked at the time and b) had rarely had to deal with full blown MM armies in the PvP realm. This combination meant the MMs could run across the battlefield as conquering heros (who didn't hear a "Here comes the MM!!!!" cry during 12v12?). As the FPE went on tho, folks started to figure out how to beat massive army necros. Does anyone truly believe that if the FPE was a week long event that by the end MMs would have seen their success drop dramatically in 12v12s?

Did Anet hear/see these cries? Possibly. Is it also possible that they saw the sheer power demonstrated in ToPK, SF, ettin runs, Desert Solos, and other PvE areas? The old MMs enabled one player to perform multiple roles with a minimum of effort. I did the MM thing on FPE... for about 3 rounds of 12v12. Then I figured something out: my blood spiker build could own.

MM is fun and it has been profitable for me in terms of SF/ToPK farming. However, it's not really what has made me the most plat in this game or given me the most enjoyment.

My 55hp iNecro and my blood spiker build combined with good knowledge of where to farm has made me the most plat.

My blood spiker and curse builds have been the most fun in terms of PvP.

Overall, while I'm sad that I won't be able to animate 30+ minions, I'm not going to fret too much. I still have faith in my little green goth girl's ability to compensate.

As for the ANet nerf... basically they just downgraded MM's so that people would give Ele's a second look.

So can someone actually definatively prove that MMs are now worse than other classes, like BMs were for so long, or is this just a bunch of people crying about Anet nerfing something they like? The way I saw it, MMs were so powerful because they were situational (needed lots of corpses, and had problems if battles were not frequent) and had less control then almost any other build out there. Minions lacked the intelligence of pets, often aggroing when you didnt want them to or not concentrating their attacks where you wanted them. That was the tradeoff for having so much damage potential when the situation was just right. Now an MM still has all of those restrictions and problems, but could probably barely outdamage a Barrage ranger under the best of conditions.

So yeah, I would say that MMs are now weaker than most support builds. Minion bomber is still probably quite doable, but without a better way of targeting minions for death nova it isnt a very enjoyable build for me.