@Ensign: I'm the OP, and I'm not really expecting a reversal on this issue, but they over-nerfed us.
If they had left VS alone, then at least we would have had 10 reasonably robust minions. At least there would be some momentum from mob to mob.
Or they could have not added any minion cap, and made it harder to maintain them by changing VS.
But 10 minions and no regen for them, after playing for 8 months with 80 minions under +10 regen, is rather extreme. I feel that the resentment of this patch is deserved and (for the most part) not over the top. If it comes out that this was all because of PvP...get ready for some real screaming.
A comparable example would be if Anet came out and said, "you know, being able to stack enchantments indefinately is overpowered, we're setting a limit of 4 enchantments per person."
The screaming would never end.
Not only do we feel blindsided by the change, but a flat cap on minions basically says Anet doesn't understand the build well enough to balance it properly.
It's difficult to explore PvE now, we're basically looking for the next mob right away. Absolutely no staying power anymore. Startup mode all the time, and that makes it a lot less fun.
I can talk about a balance, I understand we were crazy powerful, but this is too much, and Anet silence is unbearable.
An open letter on the Minion Master changes
Carinae
lilnate22
on april of 2006 anet killed the ever loving MM....
on may22nd of 2006 the MM was reborn!!!
hey cmon YOU (me.. im a good ol' wamo!) are the necromancer... king of all dead! just rise back stronger than ever!
on may22nd of 2006 the MM was reborn!!!
hey cmon YOU (me.. im a good ol' wamo!) are the necromancer... king of all dead! just rise back stronger than ever!
Silent Elvin Ranger
Whos the genious who nerfed MM in the first place? Some jerk (or jerks) who do not even know how to use a MM imo. Sure 10 minions is ALRIGHT, but when u aggro a group with 10 minions (lets say its a group of 10 monsters) its 1v1 for the minions. Seeing as the armor level of the minions and there ai is terrible, you would be looking at 1 DEAD mm. Even if u spammed BoTM. It sacs too much so it is still not very good to spam. I know the AI of minions is to follow the spike that is called, but still u kill 1 after the other 9 enemies BEAT THE SHIT out of ur minions. O and lilnate, what f they put the armor of tanks down to the same as ranger armor. What are you gonna do "just rise back stronger than ever!". After a nerf like that...Tanks would get their ass HANDED to them on a silver platter (with croutons!). This nerf against MMs is alot more than having a bit less stronger army...its affecting the whole build (how to quickly raise, control, maintain and attack with ur minions), its like having warriors (the character that can take the most hits) getting killed like A PUNK BITCH!@
Elvin
Elvin
Ka RaTae
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Elvin Ranger
Whos the genious who nerfed MM in the first place? Some jerk (or jerks) who do not even know how to use a MM imo. Sure 10 minions is ALRIGHT, but when u aggro a group with 10 minions (lets say its a group of 10 monsters) its 1v1 for the minions. Seeing as the armor level of the minions and there ai is terrible, you would be looking at 1 DEAD mm. Even if u spammed BoTM. It sacs too much so it is still not very good to spam. I know the AI of minions is to follow the spike that is called, but still u kill 1 after the other 9 enemies BEAT THE SHIT out of ur minions.
You are exactly on target! With only 10 minions, the fights last too long, which means the minions die. The key to a good MM is numbers. Without numbers you can't just play the classic MM that stands in the back and directs his horde. I personally think that sucks that we are not allowed to do that any more. I have messed around with stuff now vs. groups of Am Fah , and it's ridiculously hard to get 10 Minions and keep them going. Most times as soon as you enter battle with a new group you loose 3 or 4 right away. Sins hit hard in the opening seconds, and they seem to just wipe them out. BotM is awesome now, but it isn't enough on it's own to keep stuff alive in a real fight. Plus if you have to actually stop spamming BotM to say replace a minion or cast rotting flesh or something then it's probably going to cost you a minion to do that. Verata's just isn't good enuff anymore to be considered as supplemental healing, and taking heal area and running up into the fray isn't really what this style of play is meant to do, plus there is always the chance that you heal the enemy.
I will say that I do not have the Golem yet with my PVE guy, and that it may change things somewhat, but I really don't see any benefit from having more then 3 minions anymore. It seems like we are being forced into 3 or less so that we can keep them at +10 pips at all times plus use BotM.
I will also say that it's about time that they fixed the dam henchie AI. It is annoying that if you forget to call a target or are busy the henchies will stop fighting after a death leaving the minions to try to handle it all by themselves. If the Minions are smart enough to find a new target, why aren't the henchmen? As a matter of fact, if the monsters that you fight are smart enough to priortize targets, why aren't the henchmen?
I will say that I do not have the Golem yet with my PVE guy, and that it may change things somewhat, but I really don't see any benefit from having more then 3 minions anymore. It seems like we are being forced into 3 or less so that we can keep them at +10 pips at all times plus use BotM.
I will also say that it's about time that they fixed the dam henchie AI. It is annoying that if you forget to call a target or are busy the henchies will stop fighting after a death leaving the minions to try to handle it all by themselves. If the Minions are smart enough to find a new target, why aren't the henchmen? As a matter of fact, if the monsters that you fight are smart enough to priortize targets, why aren't the henchmen?
Kcp
I guess my statement about clearing luxon/kurzick explorable areas with 4 henchies and 10 minions fell on deaf ears.
Even ran a 3 man group of necros thru ferndale, with no HEALS. Spammed Botm the entire time
How did I stay alive spamming Botm? Those uber new non-elite minions thats how.
Crying about the MM is OLD, please delete your necros you don't deserve to be playing one as much as yall piss and moan you're making the rest of us look bad.
You guys are starting to sound like the Ele's. Give it a rest.
Even ran a 3 man group of necros thru ferndale, with no HEALS. Spammed Botm the entire time
How did I stay alive spamming Botm? Those uber new non-elite minions thats how.Crying about the MM is OLD, please delete your necros you don't deserve to be playing one as much as yall piss and moan you're making the rest of us look bad.
You guys are starting to sound like the Ele's. Give it a rest.
Njall
After having played a lot with my MM, I can say one thing : I love the changes. Reckless haste and SS are really good to kill warriors or assassins (especially those NPCs who use Frenzy 
) and Desecrate Enchantments +Defile Enchantments is amazing vs casters.
Uh ? oh.. the Flesh golem ? I can't say, you know, when I'm asked to play MM (usually by some player who doesn't know about the nerf), I have to take Aura of the lich if I want to keep my minions alive (I feel really sorry for would-be-necromancers who don't own Prophecy... well.. at least, they'll have to buy it and it'll be good for A.net).
Btw, to all those great MMs who manage to stay alive using vampiric horrors to heal themselves so they can spam BoTM : how do you do between fights ? I mean... everyone is able to raise minions during a fight.. but keeping them alive when there isn't any mobs... and your horrors can't heal you... how do you do that ?
) and Desecrate Enchantments +Defile Enchantments is amazing vs casters.Uh ? oh.. the Flesh golem ? I can't say, you know, when I'm asked to play MM (usually by some player who doesn't know about the nerf), I have to take Aura of the lich if I want to keep my minions alive (I feel really sorry for would-be-necromancers who don't own Prophecy... well.. at least, they'll have to buy it and it'll be good for A.net).
Btw, to all those great MMs who manage to stay alive using vampiric horrors to heal themselves so they can spam BoTM : how do you do between fights ? I mean... everyone is able to raise minions during a fight.. but keeping them alive when there isn't any mobs... and your horrors can't heal you... how do you do that ?
Ka RaTae
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kcp
Even ran a 3 man group of necros thru ferndale, with no HEALS. Spammed Botm the entire time
How did I stay alive spamming Botm? Those uber new non-elite minions thats how.Crying about the MM is OLD, please delete your necros you don't deserve to be playing one as much as yall piss and moan you're making the rest of us look bad.
You guys are starting to sound like the Ele's. Give it a rest.
If you don't like the thread I suggest you delete your forum account because no one needs to read your flames. If you want to post your formula for running a new MM then post it. But flames help no one. I actually agree with alot of your statements from this post.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kcp
Lmao. MM wasnt nerfed. Flesh golem hits harder then a wammo on steroids. So what if you can only summon 10 minions. Keep summoning them and reap in soul reaping for never ending energy and a net costs of 12 energy per summon with 13 in soul reaping. Spam blood of the master, dont even put veratas sacrifice on your bar. WTF is so hard?
I cleared ALL of luxon and kurz territory with 4 henchies , my necro with minions. Thats right a 5 man team with henchies. I maybe had 3 party wipes the entire exploration of both territories combined. You ppl that are complaining are a bunch of cry babies. GW's is constantly evolving. adapt or die, it's that simple. Necro is still the most powerful class in the game learn to play one instead of crying constantly for anet to do this and that. Why don't you post a video of you doing this with 4 henchies only. As the proverb goes...1 picture is worth 10,000 words. So a video must be worth 10,000,000. I do agree in pricipal about the constant resummon and stuff, but it appears that most peoples roblem seems to stem from the fact that with only 10 they don't kill fast enough to keep up the flow of new bodies. Contessa
I've spent a lot of time thinking about and playing my MM since the change. Here's an overview of what I've found. I'm not looking for any arguement. I just wanted to state what I've found. I mainly play PvE so I don't have many comments for PvP, GvG or the others:
Quote: Originally Posted by Longasc BotM got a considerable boost. Blood of the Master I agree. It's the best necro healing spell for minions. The biggest annoyance is spamming it (which gets old very fast). There are plenty of spells to counter the blood sacrifice, so I haven't found that to be an issue. Quote: Originally Posted by Longasc The new Vampiric Horrors are very useful, and Animate Bone Minions is now even some kind of energy management. After trying these things out, I must disagree. Vampiric Horrors: I do not find Vampiric Horrors useful at all. Also the recharge time and energy cost aren't worth it to me (if you get interupted while casting the recharge time is 15 seconds or more depending on the interupt and you just lost 25 points of energy). If the Vampiric Horrors healed themselves with every hit, that would be a different. That's what I thought was going to happen when I read the name. That would have been balancing to me with the reworking of Verata's Sacrifice. Self-healing I'd rather have troll unguent or a monk healing spell ready at any time. If I need to heal, it's generally because my minions are already dead and I'm getting attacked. Being dependant on your herd for healing and energy (via minions dieing) is not the best tactic. You are still dependant on too many factors to make it worth it. (My comments are only for minion master, not minions bomber builds). The energy reaping seems to be helping some people though, so it might be worth more exploring/exploiting. This was around before the nerf though. Also, if you get interupted (while making those minions at 0 death magic), you'll be out the energy. New Armor If you need energy and health in an emergency, chances are your herd is dead or already dieing, and if you are at that point, run! That minion master armor ain't going to save you. I'd rather have that extra armor protection when I'm low on minions, but I can see a group not wanting 10 minions running around if the master dies (the only reason I can see for this armor being created). If you're playing the game right, you shouldn't be dieing all the time anyway, especially if you have a bunch of minions. That to me is a much better defense. Make the armor enable the MM to have more than 10 minions. Now THAT would be MM armor. Quote: Originally Posted by Longasc The Flesh Golem is not useless, btw. It is a premium tank and dishes out due to high level. It can be really useful in Urgoz Warren, doing things and performing in roles a normal Bone Horror or Fiend could not. Flesh Golems Useful. Wish we could have 10 of those. Quote: Originally Posted by Longasc What I really would like: Completely rework Verata's Sacrifice. Make it a condition remover with some extras, emphasize its only remaining strength or something like that, for healing it is soooo useless compared to BotM that it is no longer worth the slot IMO. Verata's Sacrifice I completely agree on Verata's. It needs to be reworked. If it made it so while the minions were regening, it also buffed their attacks (something like they could spread conditions like weakness or a +10 to each hit) then it wouldn't be so bad. The Future Ok. Unfortunately I don't believe the cap of 10 minions will be changed. It seems like when Anet does a change/nerf, they are very unlikely to undue it. They'd probably change something like casting speed if they did change it. The only way I will ever enjoy playing a minion master again is to be able to have more effective minions. Some improvements that I think would help: Target selection for your minions. One very unfortunate thing is that I won't be playing a minion master with my necro anymore. I actually find it more effective with my mesmer and fast casting to raise an army quickly. All my spellcasters in Factions get interupted more often so the fast-casting really helps. Let's face it, commanding minions hasn't been viable in a lot of areas even before the nerf (no fleshy corpses, interupts, enemies beating you to the corpses with faster spells like putrid explosion or making wells). In these areas MM are useless. MM were never one-trick ponies, we have always had to remake our build. The frustrating thing about the changes is that they are even less viable now. Anet is always says they read the forums for ideas. I already posted this on gwonline.net, but figured there would be more of a chance for a developer to read this if it's on both sites. Bottomline: It's just not fun to play a minion master anymore. Kcp
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ka RaTae
Why don't you post a video of you doing this with 4 henchies only. As the proverb goes...1 picture is worth 10,000 words. So a video must be worth 10,000,000. I do agree in pricipal about the constant resummon and stuff, but it appears that most peoples roblem seems to stem from the fact that with only 10 they don't kill fast enough to keep up the flow of new bodies.
Maybe you don't know what I've already done for the necromancer community? Why would I lie? Ask around I don't B.S. when I say I can do something
Asking me to make a video to prove that you can run a 5 man team with henchies is a waste of time, as i've already made 20+ videos on how to use a necromancer in places that people said no necromancer could go alone. I'll just sum it up for you. Skill bar: Necro/anything plague touch Botm flesh golem vampiric horror bone fiend cap sig cap sig res sig Death magic =16 Soul reaping =13 OMG that's world shattering isnt it. Sometimes i'd take rotting flesh instead of a cap sig if i've already snagged an elite in the area. If making the initial kill is "too hard" maybe you need to rethink your target priorities. Always summon flesh golem first of course because it hits harder then a wammo on steroids and can be resummoned if it does go down in case you dont get any other minions up. Pick and choose your henchies as you please. You need a tank, healer,protection, and whatever else you want for last spot. The less amount of allies in the party means you are going to get healed after each BoTm running a hench squad. So enough crying already.
Rion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Contessa
It's just not fun for me to play a minion master anymore. Fixed. Please don't speak for us all.
Carinae
@Contessa - Agree 100% with your entire post. Well done.
Gmr Leon
Carinae I completely agree. When I managed to get Blood of The Master and Verata's Sacrifice I went straight to practicing and managed to maintain a good number of minions. Though with this nerf as some call it I am now reduced to 10 minions..
studentochaos
/signed
I often was hard on this build as it was frequently in the hand of idiots and even to the best players would often prove tempermental. However, it was an essential part of the Necromancer identity and was really a lot of fun to play. Were they really that big a threat in PvP? I remember the MM running around in alliance battles being good, but certainly not unbeatable. Anyway those battles are long and to maintain a huge number over that time is impossible. Additionally the counter to this added needed variety to the matchs. Quite a sad day the minions died..... (On a final note veratas sacrifice isnt dead, it is a totally new skill. I can now perpetually maintain 3 or fewer minions. If one is a flesh golem that isnt SO terrible, but it is just an elite skill pet....) Ka RaTae
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kcp
Maybe you don't know what I've already done for the necromancer community? Why would I lie? Ask around I don't B.S. when I say I can do something
I never said you were lying or inferred that you were. I simply stated that for a lot of people it would be way helpfull to see this in action. It would also be interesting to see this done with no Flesh Golem.
Minus Sign
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
@Contessa - Agree 100% with your entire post. Well done.
QFT. The most satisfying post I've read in here for a while now. You said it all. *Cheers*
shadowmist
While I don't have a necro anymore, having deleted mine months ago, I do have experience playing MM. Having less than 12 or so can make things a bit rough solo. I'd rather have around 16 or so minions. On average, MM's I see have about 20 or so minions at a time, and I've never seen more than 30. I assume having more than 40 would take a high amount of skill to do, something that Guild Wars is supposed to encourage.
Playing a Rt/N, I've found minions to be close to useless at higher levels. They make okay meat shields though. They'll die fast if you send them up, which you have to if you want to play a Nova Bomber. It isn't always reliable with Mark of Pain as they have no targeting system and you can't always tell who they're attacking. Vereta's Sacrifice is close to useless now. If you have to use it once, you won't be able to use it again for a long time. Almost a complete waste of a slot now. Flesh Golem {E} and vamp horrors are nice, but not great. You can only have one flesh golem, which is powerful, but its still only one. Vamp horrors take forever to recharge making it hard to manage and almost impossible to get more than 5 up at once. And the worst part is, both of these are Factions only. Anyone without Factions were basically nerfed without compensation. I completely agree with Carinae, this nerf should be fixed. Perhaps raising the maximum amount to 20? Maybe removing the degeneration inherent on all current minions? I dunno, but it definetly needs to be fixed. /signed
Ensign
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
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An overnerf, from every definition I've ever seen of it, it something that reduces a powerful mechanic into one that is all but useless. If minion masters were overnerfed, no one would ever want them in their group because they are such a weak character. But that is the exact opposite of reality, a vast majority of teams actively search for and embrace minion masters *because they are such strong characters*.
Look, I can understand that you don't like your pet character being nerfed. No one does. But there's a gap between that emotional bitterness, and rational analysis of the changes themselves. I will respect the emotional reaction for what it is, but as soon as you start to try and make logical, mechanical arguments based upon those emotions I'm going to call you on it.
Quote: Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood If they had left VS alone, then at least we would have had 10 reasonably robust minions. At least there would be some momentum from mob to mob. I've never seen this problem of lack of momentum from mob to mob. Hell, in a lot of zones you have to try really hard to walk for 15 seconds without hitting another mob. Sure you can't stand around waiting with a pack of fiends the same way you could with Verata's, but standing around waiting isn't exactly something I've made a habit of in PvE. Maybe it's a playstyle thing.
I can understand where they're coming from with the nerf to Verata's Sacrifice. Remember that it's not a factions skill, so they'd have to balance minions without it - but Verata's was so ridiculously strong that it'd be incredibly difficult to maintain that balance with Verata's available. Hence the flip, turning Blood of the Master from crap into something very, very good, and Verata's from the only minion maintenence skill you'll ever need into the bottom of the pail. I do not understand why Verata's needed to be nerfed so hard, especially considering the current strength of Blood of the Master (having both on your bar now would largely be overkill) - but at the same time, I can overlook the skill becoming trash *because* it was already redundant.
Quote: Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood Or they could have not added any minion cap, and made it harder to maintain them by changing VS. I know some people who lobbied for this sort of change before the final one was settled upon, but ultimately I think that the current version is actually for the best. Consider the alternative - maintenence of minions would have to be raised to a difficulty where you could not keep many more than you currently can. We're not talking about making a nerf with a wink that'd supposedly reduce the number of minions you could maintain to 10, but really that meant 50 if you did it right. It'd mean nerfage to the point where 10 is what you'd get if you maintained them right. When you consider that monk healing skills like Heal Area also have to be part of the equation, that'd mean a serious re-working of the durability of minions - such as a reduction of minion health and increased minion degeneration - as well as the minion maintenence skills themselves. In other words you'd be looking at a huge nerf to minion maintenence across the board.
The consequence of this is that maintaining even small numbers of minions would become increasingly difficult as well. A new minion master would very likely feel like a complete gimp, since his minions would be so hard to maintain, and it would require a lot of practice to make the character reasonable. A hard cap on the number of minions, on the other hand, does not have that access problem - it lets them make it even easier to maintain minions, actually, and increases access without allowing the profession to become ridiculous. Because of the cap, you get better skills and better minions all around, making the profession more robust and interesting to play. It might seem harsh to have a hard cap, but it certainly beats the alternative.
Quote: Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood But 10 minions and no regen for them, after playing for 8 months with 80 minions under +10 regen, is rather extreme. You're damn right it was extreme. But what's important is not the magnitude of the change, but the power of the end state. If the power of the end state is reasonable the magnitude is inconsequential. It has to be that way - I mean, can you really argue that something that's ridiculously overpowered has to *always* be ridiculously overpowered, because nerfing it would be too big of a change? Of course not.
Quote: Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood I feel that the resentment of this patch is deserved and (for the most part) not over the top. I do not wish to argue whether the resentment that always comes with someone's pet character being nerfed is justified or not. I don't feel that emotions are something that one ever has to justify.
What I am asking is that your resentment not cloud your judgement about the current strength of minion masters, and whether or not the change made sense on those grounds.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
A comparable example would be if Anet came out and said, "you know, being able to stack enchantments indefinately is overpowered, we're setting a limit of 4 enchantments per person."
That example fails on a couple of levels. One is that it's very likely going to be an overly general solution to a very specific problem. Granted they *could* create a disaster where characters are stacking enchantments 10 deep across the board, and that would justify a response of this magnitude. But more realistically you're looking at a very specific problem, such as damage buff stacking, and those are better addressed more directly - ala, by making those buffs no longer stack.
It has to be that way - I mean, can you really argue that something that's ridiculously overpowered has to *always* be ridiculously overpowered, because nerfing it would be too big of a change? Of course not.
The other big problem with that sort of change is how it will negatively affect a lot of other mechanics that were previously balanced - for example, spammable protection skills would lose a huge amount of utility if they would simply fail if enough enchantments were around. Again if that's specifically the problem you want to address it that way, but if it's not the problem you probably shouldn't address it in a way that breaks a lot of other things in the process. A hard minion cap directly addresses the problem they are trying to attack - enormous minion armies. I will agree that it is not an elegant solution. At the same time, I would argue that it is less destructive to the profession, and has a lot less incidental damage than a more elegant solution would. Quote:
No usually it's go-go-go, but there are times when you just need to sit there and maintain.
"Where did Orozar go? Someone go find him, I'll wait here." THK? Enough said. Verata's Sacrifice was less of a healing/regen spell, than a lifespan extender. It doubled a minions lifespan. Averaged out, that's all it did for minions. But it had another effect on the PLAYER (me), it gave me 21 seconds to 'take a break'. 21 seconds to take a drink, flex my hands, let the dog in/out, answer the phone.... Verata's was how MMs dealt with "Real Life", inconvenient as it is. Every other class can go AFK and return with little consequence. Not MM's, and especially not anymore. 21 seconds now, with no BotM? Minion Wipe. Here's the specific issue: The minion cap, changes the nature of Verata's Sacrifice. The cap doesn't prevent new minions from being cast, it destroys the oldest when exceeded. So because of the minion cap, you could have kept all minions at +10 regen constantly. Solutions? Make the VS effect 'easily interruptable' on the minions, so they won't have +10 while in combat, but WILL have it while traveling/waiting. or.... Make it so you CAN'T cast another minion until you're below the cap. or.... Just leave VS as is, in favor of making as small a change as possible.... That's just common engineering sense. Cap us, and see how that goes. We only have 10 now, I mean how bad can it be? Quote: |
). Just think about how fast the minions own shiro if You take 2-3 assassins who use the spec skill given by Kuunavang in the last coop. And he is supposd to be the hardest of all enemies. ^^Quote: Originally Posted by Ensign I do not wish to argue whether the resentment that always comes with someone's pet character being nerfed is justified or not. I don't feel that emotions are something that one ever has to justify.
What I am asking is that your resentment not cloud your judgement about the current strength of minion masters, and whether or not the change made sense on those grounds. Fair enough.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ensign
The other big problem with that sort of change is how it will negatively affect a lot of other mechanics that were previously balanced - for example, spammable protection skills would lose a huge amount of utility if they would simply fail if enough enchantments were around.....
No, because it would push an enchantment off the bottom of the stack, not fail to cast. It wouldn't break anything, unless you were depending on the bottom enchant. Conversely, they could have made minions spells fail if you were over the cap, and that would have solved the VS issue. Quote:
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. As it stands, I run pretty much everything else, so I'm sorta sad that the minion cap exists but if it didn't, no SS or Bloodspiker would ever be welcomed into a party in Factions.
