Carrier defense? How much more imbal can it get?!

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Akathrielah
Frost Gate Guardian
#81
The problem with the Fort Aspenwood map isn't so much with the map itself (or not very much anyway), as it is with the community.

There simply are more people playing offensive characters than defensive ones in the game in general. And being that the Luxon side has NPCs that greatly complement offense, they will get the better deal most of the time.
E
Eet GnomeSmasher
Banned
#82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akathrielah
The problem with the Fort Aspenwood map isn't so much with the map itself (or not very much anyway), as it is with the community.

There simply are more people playing offensive characters than defensive ones in the game in general. And being that the Luxon side has NPCs that greatly complement offense, they will get the better deal most of the time.
Exactly. Even though the teams are random, everyone should bring some skills to help with defense when you're Kurzick. And help protect the NPCs. There are some that just cant understand that yet cry about imbalance when they leave NPCs unprotected and go all offense.
LamerFlamer
LamerFlamer
Academy Page
#83
Or you can just do what I do on kurzick as an assassin...Use your offense skills to kill the offending MM's and Monks. So then it's like defense!
g
generik
Desert Nomad
#84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esprit
If a turtle gets through the outer gate, it is possible for a Ranger to solo the Turtle. Poison Arrow + Distracting Shot + Kindle Arrows let's any Ranger stop a Turtle dead in its tracks.

Unfortunately stopping the Turtle does not mean you prevent a gate breach, if the warrior NPCs kill all your Gate NPCs then they still get through. As long as you have some people supporting the Ranger it's not too hard.
Except what if there isn't a ranger?

I'd propose they reduce the range of the seige turtle, as it is currently you have to lose TWO gates before the damned coward of a turtle will move into your casting range from the alcove. Oh and don't remind me of stupid Guildwars pathing again, why the hell can't my tiny character walk onto that bit with the slope so I can just get a freaking cast on the turtle? Don't know!
R
Rhys ap Llysgwr
Academy Page
#85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Symbol
If you can, it's certainly not apparent from your reply.



No shit sherlock, both teams are random, but one team doesn't need certain builds to succeed, or failing that, a much higher standard of play.



But it's true. Kurzicks do need a healer to keep NPCs alive (preferably a bonder). Kurzicks do need either an interrupter or a heavy source of armor ignoring damage (whether it come from degen, attack skills, or what have you), to deal with turtles efficiently. Kurzicks do need more coordination (to know when to run amber, when to defend, when to push).



I will say that because it's true. That's what they do, and that's how they win. There's no need of any coordination besides "run in with turtle". They don't have to run amber, they don't have to repair gates, they don't have to heal NPCs,they don't have to do any of the things the Kurzicks do. Certainly better teamwork helps them, but fundamentally on a random team, with with random (and usually poor) builds, with little coordination, the Luxons have a big advantage.



Why is it that the Kurzicks need smart players who bring the right skills to win, but the Luxons don't need anything of the sort? That is an imbalance, your denials notwithstanding.
Consistently stopping amber runners also requires coordiantion, as does keeping turtles alive. I've played many a battle defending, with some really disorganized treams, and we still won because A. Luxons could not protect turtles from random assaults and B. Luxons couldn't prevent the random Amber runs. The scenario is balanced just fine.
g
generik
Desert Nomad
#86
Does anyone know the respawn rate of the turtles? I swear there are games when they just keep coming non stop.

At the very least Anet should put a cap on the turtles, like they only respawn three times throughout the whole battle, or once for every 25% of vengence. If the Luxon team can't protect their turtle properly it is their own damned fault and they should not receive a new one. Period.
K
Kaguya
Desert Nomad
#87
Quote:
Originally Posted by generik
Does anyone know the respawn rate of the turtles? I swear there are games when they just keep coming non stop.

At the very least Anet should put a cap on the turtles, like they only respawn three times throughout the whole battle, or once for every 25% of vengence. If the Luxon team can't protect their turtle properly it is their own damned fault and they should not receive a new one. Period.
Once turtle and all the 4 warriors die, it takes something like 30 seconds or less for the squad to respawn. This of course could be exploited by running around with 1 blinded warrior, which stops the entire squad from respawning.
A
A_Muppet
Krytan Explorer
#88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fate
If you play an assassin right you can take away 3/4 of the turtle's health in one skill barrage (4 skills chained together).

They aren't that hard.
Yea, I took the turtle out on my own with my assassin nearly-took about 4/5ths health off the git no problem.
S
Symbol
Jungle Guide
#89
Quote:
Consistently stopping amber runners also requires coordiantion, as does keeping turtles alive. I've played many a battle defending, with some really disorganized treams, and we still won because A. Luxons could not protect turtles from random assaults and B. Luxons couldn't prevent the random Amber runs.
I don't see how this shows anything, one way or the other. It could be that the players on the luxon team were just individually bad. Certainly that's been my experience when a disorganized Kurzick team wins.

Also stopping amber runners does not require any significant degree of coordination. One guy with a snare (hello cripshot ranger!) can do that on his own. Failing that the luxon warriors do fine just spamming coward.


Quote:
The scenario is balanced just fine.
Not for random teams it isn't.
[
[FnG] Lazz
Frost Gate Guardian
#90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher
Imbalanced? Hardly. You're not even considering that Kurzicks WOULD have had an easier job since basically all they have to do is defend their base. And helping them guard the base is a whole slew of NPCs. Not to mention, that Kurzicks are able to heal/bond the NPCs guarding the gate without any harm to themselves.
I tested both sides a few days ago. 5 matches each side. I won with the Luxon's 3 times out of the 5, and I won just once with the Kurzicks. I felt the most akward part of it is when Luxons have 1 or 2 minion masters on their team because that way, many of the NPC's concentrate on killing them, rather than the higher thread of human players.
D
Draygo Korvan
Frost Gate Guardian
#91
The mission is balanced, the play is not.

Luxons can win much faster than the kurzicks, which lets the average better luxon player play again at a faster rate while the good kurzick players have to play for 12-15 or so minutes. The bad luxon players are trapped in games and dont get to play as often. The bad kurzick players can play several rounds and lose alot faster... thats the only reason it is unbalanced.
Studio Ghibli
Studio Ghibli
Wilds Pathfinder
#92
I don't play Kurzick that often.

If anyone reading this does though, describe to me the random make-up of your team.

Why?

Because maybe the problem isn't so much the mission but the fact your side is supposed to be defense-oriented, but no one is playing to the Kurzick strengths on the map.

The Luxon side is easy because it represents the basic PVP mindset. Attack, attack, attack. And it's easy to play to the strengths of that. Keep moving, don't necessarily need a healer, though they help out.

I don't think we've ever had much reason to defend, defend, defend though. Look at stance tanks. Despite their awesomeness, they only took off in the latter months of Prophecies.

.. oww.

I'm eating Altoids and I think I cut my tongue.

- edit -

Back now...

Tongue is fine, but I sort of lost my train of thought.

Paradigm shift, that's all I can say. Change the way Kurzick players think about Aspenwood.

Well, that, and Christ, make the Juggernaut more useful.
N
Ninna
Desert Nomad
#93
Quote:
Originally Posted by generik
Except what if there isn't a ranger?
rangers dont have the exclusive on range interrupts

- ive interrupted as necro / mesmer / elem
MelechRic
MelechRic
Desert Nomad
#94
Order of Apostosy and Gaze of Contempt have breached every bonder/hold-out Kurzick team I've been up against this week.

The only thing that slows me down with OoA is that I can take 300-400 damage very rapidly if the other team has a good set of bonders. If I don't have a monk on my team healing me I typically use Gaze of Contempt to strip the first enchants off the bonded NPCs. Then I go ahead and use OoA and hope I'm not dead.
I
Ira Blinks
Banned
#95
I am honestly way more annoyed by free gank squads Luxons get. Every time I move around trying to run amber or help team I'm getting knowcked down three times in a row and wacked down to half health almost instantly with 60-80 damage per hit. This is just lame. And if turtle lands a hit somewhere near it is a 100% death.
I've got more survivable with Consume Corpse, but there are not always corpses around and I often cant even get off my butt before Im dead from full health, with zero Luxon player help.

I'd say amount of Luxon warriors should be halved or they should lose Coward! or turtle siege should start doin damage to all targets and not only Kurzik.
anti_z3r0
anti_z3r0
Lion's Arch Merchant
#96
*spawns*
*walks through teleporter*
-60 (Renewing Smash) -60 (Renewing Smash) -60 (Renewing Smash) -60 (Renewing Smash)
-230 (Siege Attack)
*dies*


*spawns*
*walks through teleporter*
*Tries to run through next teleporter*
*knocked down from Coward*
*knocked down from Coward*
-230 (Siege Attack)
*knocked down from Coward*
*knocked down from Coward*
-60 (Renewing Smash) -60 (Renewing Smash) -60 (Renewing Smash)
*dies*

etc...
I
Ira Blinks
Banned
#97
One thing I learned is not to go thru the portal at the spawn if turtles are past the inner gates, but yes, general idea is exactly that.
R
Rhys ap Llysgwr
Academy Page
#98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Symbol
I don't see how this shows anything, one way or the other. It could be that the players on the luxon team were just individually bad. Certainly that's been my experience when a disorganized Kurzick team wins.
While my personal expereinces in this mission are obvously anecdotal, I have played many many battles and not found it to be biased toward the Luxons, which is the same standard most others here are using to judge. I should probably plot wins/losses the next 100 battles I play, assuming player quality on both sides follows a normal distribution, maybe I could see who is winning/losing more. Up to this point, the Kurzicks have won more from my experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Symbol
Also stopping amber runners does not require any significant degree of coordination. One guy with a snare (hello cripshot ranger!) can do that on his own. Failing that the luxon warriors do fine just spamming coward.

Not for random teams it isn't.

A good amber runner build, or a bonder to protect Kurzick NPCs, also does not require team coordiantion - just a smart player who enters randomly.

I find the scenario to be balanced just fine for random teams.
K
Kaguya
Desert Nomad
#99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhys ap Llysgwr
A good amber runner build, or a bonder to protect Kurzick NPCs, also does not require team coordiantion - just a smart player who enters randomly.
Bonder is pretty useless tho if the other team has a smart player. I never do Aspenwood without my enchantment removal these days... When I'm not bonding on my monk, and playing my other charas there instead

But, it's all luck. Having a smart player in the opposite team as well seems veeeery low chance.
aron searle
aron searle
Jungle Guide
#100
start game (as luxon)

player 1 quits
player 2 quits
3 other players quit

the 3 of us still manage to get in far enough into the base to attack gunther to half health (still lost), vs 8 players.

make of that as you will.