The problem with the Fort Aspenwood map isn't so much with the map itself (or not very much anyway), as it is with the community.
There simply are more people playing offensive characters than defensive ones in the game in general. And being that the Luxon side has NPCs that greatly complement offense, they will get the better deal most of the time.
Carrier defense? How much more imbal can it get?!
Akathrielah
Eet GnomeSmasher
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Akathrielah
The problem with the Fort Aspenwood map isn't so much with the map itself (or not very much anyway), as it is with the community.
There simply are more people playing offensive characters than defensive ones in the game in general. And being that the Luxon side has NPCs that greatly complement offense, they will get the better deal most of the time. |
LamerFlamer
Or you can just do what I do on kurzick as an assassin...Use your offense skills to kill the offending MM's and Monks. So then it's like defense!
generik
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Originally Posted by Esprit
If a turtle gets through the outer gate, it is possible for a Ranger to solo the Turtle. Poison Arrow + Distracting Shot + Kindle Arrows let's any Ranger stop a Turtle dead in its tracks.
Unfortunately stopping the Turtle does not mean you prevent a gate breach, if the warrior NPCs kill all your Gate NPCs then they still get through. As long as you have some people supporting the Ranger it's not too hard. |
I'd propose they reduce the range of the seige turtle, as it is currently you have to lose TWO gates before the damned coward of a turtle will move into your casting range from the alcove. Oh and don't remind me of stupid Guildwars pathing again, why the hell can't my tiny character walk onto that bit with the slope so I can just get a freaking cast on the turtle? Don't know!
Rhys ap Llysgwr
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Originally Posted by Symbol
If you can, it's certainly not apparent from your reply.
No shit sherlock, both teams are random, but one team doesn't need certain builds to succeed, or failing that, a much higher standard of play. But it's true. Kurzicks do need a healer to keep NPCs alive (preferably a bonder). Kurzicks do need either an interrupter or a heavy source of armor ignoring damage (whether it come from degen, attack skills, or what have you), to deal with turtles efficiently. Kurzicks do need more coordination (to know when to run amber, when to defend, when to push). I will say that because it's true. That's what they do, and that's how they win. There's no need of any coordination besides "run in with turtle". They don't have to run amber, they don't have to repair gates, they don't have to heal NPCs,they don't have to do any of the things the Kurzicks do. Certainly better teamwork helps them, but fundamentally on a random team, with with random (and usually poor) builds, with little coordination, the Luxons have a big advantage. Why is it that the Kurzicks need smart players who bring the right skills to win, but the Luxons don't need anything of the sort? That is an imbalance, your denials notwithstanding. |
generik
Does anyone know the respawn rate of the turtles? I swear there are games when they just keep coming non stop.
At the very least Anet should put a cap on the turtles, like they only respawn three times throughout the whole battle, or once for every 25% of vengence. If the Luxon team can't protect their turtle properly it is their own damned fault and they should not receive a new one. Period.
At the very least Anet should put a cap on the turtles, like they only respawn three times throughout the whole battle, or once for every 25% of vengence. If the Luxon team can't protect their turtle properly it is their own damned fault and they should not receive a new one. Period.
Kaguya
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Originally Posted by generik
Does anyone know the respawn rate of the turtles? I swear there are games when they just keep coming non stop.
At the very least Anet should put a cap on the turtles, like they only respawn three times throughout the whole battle, or once for every 25% of vengence. If the Luxon team can't protect their turtle properly it is their own damned fault and they should not receive a new one. Period. |
A_Muppet
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Originally Posted by Fate
If you play an assassin right you can take away 3/4 of the turtle's health in one skill barrage (4 skills chained together).
They aren't that hard. |
Symbol
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| Consistently stopping amber runners also requires coordiantion, as does keeping turtles alive. I've played many a battle defending, with some really disorganized treams, and we still won because A. Luxons could not protect turtles from random assaults and B. Luxons couldn't prevent the random Amber runs. |
Also stopping amber runners does not require any significant degree of coordination. One guy with a snare (hello cripshot ranger!) can do that on his own. Failing that the luxon warriors do fine just spamming coward.
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| The scenario is balanced just fine. |
[FnG] Lazz
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Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher
Imbalanced? Hardly. You're not even considering that Kurzicks WOULD have had an easier job since basically all they have to do is defend their base. And helping them guard the base is a whole slew of NPCs. Not to mention, that Kurzicks are able to heal/bond the NPCs guarding the gate without any harm to themselves.
|
Draygo Korvan
The mission is balanced, the play is not.
Luxons can win much faster than the kurzicks, which lets the average better luxon player play again at a faster rate while the good kurzick players have to play for 12-15 or so minutes. The bad luxon players are trapped in games and dont get to play as often. The bad kurzick players can play several rounds and lose alot faster... thats the only reason it is unbalanced.
Luxons can win much faster than the kurzicks, which lets the average better luxon player play again at a faster rate while the good kurzick players have to play for 12-15 or so minutes. The bad luxon players are trapped in games and dont get to play as often. The bad kurzick players can play several rounds and lose alot faster... thats the only reason it is unbalanced.
Studio Ghibli
I don't play Kurzick that often.
If anyone reading this does though, describe to me the random make-up of your team.
Why?
Because maybe the problem isn't so much the mission but the fact your side is supposed to be defense-oriented, but no one is playing to the Kurzick strengths on the map.
The Luxon side is easy because it represents the basic PVP mindset. Attack, attack, attack. And it's easy to play to the strengths of that. Keep moving, don't necessarily need a healer, though they help out.
I don't think we've ever had much reason to defend, defend, defend though. Look at stance tanks. Despite their awesomeness, they only took off in the latter months of Prophecies.
.. oww.
I'm eating Altoids and I think I cut my tongue.
- edit -
Back now...
Tongue is fine, but I sort of lost my train of thought.
Paradigm shift, that's all I can say. Change the way Kurzick players think about Aspenwood.
Well, that, and Christ, make the Juggernaut more useful.
If anyone reading this does though, describe to me the random make-up of your team.
Why?
Because maybe the problem isn't so much the mission but the fact your side is supposed to be defense-oriented, but no one is playing to the Kurzick strengths on the map.
The Luxon side is easy because it represents the basic PVP mindset. Attack, attack, attack. And it's easy to play to the strengths of that. Keep moving, don't necessarily need a healer, though they help out.
I don't think we've ever had much reason to defend, defend, defend though. Look at stance tanks. Despite their awesomeness, they only took off in the latter months of Prophecies.
.. oww.
I'm eating Altoids and I think I cut my tongue.
- edit -
Back now...
Tongue is fine, but I sort of lost my train of thought.
Paradigm shift, that's all I can say. Change the way Kurzick players think about Aspenwood.
Well, that, and Christ, make the Juggernaut more useful.
Ninna
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Originally Posted by generik
Except what if there isn't a ranger?
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- ive interrupted as necro / mesmer / elem
MelechRic
Order of Apostosy and Gaze of Contempt have breached every bonder/hold-out Kurzick team I've been up against this week.
The only thing that slows me down with OoA is that I can take 300-400 damage very rapidly if the other team has a good set of bonders. If I don't have a monk on my team healing me I typically use Gaze of Contempt to strip the first enchants off the bonded NPCs. Then I go ahead and use OoA and hope I'm not dead.
The only thing that slows me down with OoA is that I can take 300-400 damage very rapidly if the other team has a good set of bonders. If I don't have a monk on my team healing me I typically use Gaze of Contempt to strip the first enchants off the bonded NPCs. Then I go ahead and use OoA and hope I'm not dead.
Ira Blinks
I am honestly way more annoyed by free gank squads Luxons get. Every time I move around trying to run amber or help team I'm getting knowcked down three times in a row and wacked down to half health almost instantly with 60-80 damage per hit. This is just lame. And if turtle lands a hit somewhere near it is a 100% death.
I've got more survivable with Consume Corpse, but there are not always corpses around and I often cant even get off my butt before Im dead from full health, with zero Luxon player help.
I'd say amount of Luxon warriors should be halved or they should lose Coward! or turtle siege should start doin damage to all targets and not only Kurzik.
I've got more survivable with Consume Corpse, but there are not always corpses around and I often cant even get off my butt before Im dead from full health, with zero Luxon player help.
I'd say amount of Luxon warriors should be halved or they should lose Coward! or turtle siege should start doin damage to all targets and not only Kurzik.
anti_z3r0
*spawns*
*walks through teleporter*
-60 (Renewing Smash) -60 (Renewing Smash) -60 (Renewing Smash) -60 (Renewing Smash)
-230 (Siege Attack)
*dies*
*spawns*
*walks through teleporter*
*Tries to run through next teleporter*
*knocked down from Coward*
*knocked down from Coward*
-230 (Siege Attack)
*knocked down from Coward*
*knocked down from Coward*
-60 (Renewing Smash) -60 (Renewing Smash) -60 (Renewing Smash)
*dies*
etc...
*walks through teleporter*
-60 (Renewing Smash) -60 (Renewing Smash) -60 (Renewing Smash) -60 (Renewing Smash)
-230 (Siege Attack)
*dies*
*spawns*
*walks through teleporter*
*Tries to run through next teleporter*
*knocked down from Coward*
*knocked down from Coward*
-230 (Siege Attack)
*knocked down from Coward*
*knocked down from Coward*
-60 (Renewing Smash) -60 (Renewing Smash) -60 (Renewing Smash)
*dies*
etc...
Ira Blinks
One thing I learned is not to go thru the portal at the spawn if turtles are past the inner gates, but yes, general idea is exactly that.
Rhys ap Llysgwr
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Originally Posted by Symbol
I don't see how this shows anything, one way or the other. It could be that the players on the luxon team were just individually bad. Certainly that's been my experience when a disorganized Kurzick team wins.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Symbol
Also stopping amber runners does not require any significant degree of coordination. One guy with a snare (hello cripshot ranger!) can do that on his own. Failing that the luxon warriors do fine just spamming coward.
Not for random teams it isn't. |
A good amber runner build, or a bonder to protect Kurzick NPCs, also does not require team coordiantion - just a smart player who enters randomly.
I find the scenario to be balanced just fine for random teams.
Kaguya
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Originally Posted by Rhys ap Llysgwr
A good amber runner build, or a bonder to protect Kurzick NPCs, also does not require team coordiantion - just a smart player who enters randomly.
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But, it's all luck. Having a smart player in the opposite team as well seems veeeery low chance.
aron searle
start game (as luxon)
player 1 quits
player 2 quits
3 other players quit
the 3 of us still manage to get in far enough into the base to attack gunther to half health (still lost), vs 8 players.
make of that as you will.
player 1 quits
player 2 quits
3 other players quit
the 3 of us still manage to get in far enough into the base to attack gunther to half health (still lost), vs 8 players.
make of that as you will.
Beat_Go_Stick
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Originally Posted by generik
Yes, but likewise a good monk will be able to counter all of that. In summary, Luxon + monk = 600 faction, Kurzick + monk = it depends!
And needless to say there are countless games where you don't get monks. |
generik
"Coward!" x 4 = death warrior
That said I switched sides yesterday and started on the Luxon side as a monk, out of 9 games we only lost one, and that one was when they bonded the gate NPCs and we have no degen on ours.
Fast faction, easy, no grief.
Ironically even the heavy degen builds that I personally use when I'm with the Kurzicks look so pathetic when I am monking.
That said I switched sides yesterday and started on the Luxon side as a monk, out of 9 games we only lost one, and that one was when they bonded the gate NPCs and we have no degen on ours.
Fast faction, easy, no grief.
Ironically even the heavy degen builds that I personally use when I'm with the Kurzicks look so pathetic when I am monking.
Symbol
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| While my personal expereinces in this mission are obvously anecdotal, I have played many many battles and not found it to be biased toward the Luxons, which is the same standard most others here are using to judge. I should probably plot wins/losses the next 100 battles I play, assuming player quality on both sides follows a normal distribution, maybe I could see who is winning/losing more. Up to this point, the Kurzicks have won more from my experience. |
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| A good amber runner build, or a bonder to protect Kurzick NPCs, also does not require team coordiantion - just a smart player who enters randomly. |
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| I find the scenario to be balanced just fine for random teams. |
Eet GnomeSmasher
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Originally Posted by Symbol
*shrugs*. The profusion of people coming forth with "a smart player could do x", or "people should bring y" for the Kurzicks while you see no such strategies required for the Luxons is a dead giveaway that something's wrong.
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Symbol
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| People are giving Kurzick strategies because the same 3 people are whining about the imbalance favouring Luxons. Why the hell would people give you Luxon strategy tips when you're adamant that they have an advantage? You obviously don't need tips on Luxon battles since you think they always win. |
Again, what strategy do the Luxons need to win? No more hand waving bullshit from you, I want specifics.
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| Geezus...think man. |
Former Ruling
I"ve played Fort 3 times.
Kurzicks have DOMINATED without even having to try....3 times.
Played CripShot Ranger.
Kurzicks have DOMINATED without even having to try....3 times.
Played CripShot Ranger.
Seef II
Just won one, just lost one (Kurzick). Really depends if your team knows what they're doing or not.
Ninna
monks make winning easier on both sides - but you dont need a monk
I agree Kurzik defense needs more tactics
(many people do not take out the turtle healing monks or MMs)
I've also seen my teammates leave the base defenseless and "just run amber" and go on the offensive and take Command Posts
(Ive ALWAYS LOST those)
I like the challenge in defending but winning is about teamwork and DEFENDING than anything else
I agree Kurzik defense needs more tactics
(many people do not take out the turtle healing monks or MMs)
I've also seen my teammates leave the base defenseless and "just run amber" and go on the offensive and take Command Posts
(Ive ALWAYS LOST those)
I like the challenge in defending but winning is about teamwork and DEFENDING than anything else
torquemada
Hmm...played some. Won some. Lost some.
I'd not go as far as to say that Ft. Aspenwood is unbalaced.
I agree wholeheartedly that problem is in random teams, though. Let's say both conflicting teams are way baad, both Luxon and Kurzick. Guess who'll win out? Luxon.
All you have to do to win really is to attack (already mentioned)...not even defending their turtles. Coz 4xCovard thumper's will take care of any opposing n00bs that come thru. It's fairly easy to retake amber mines with a decent split while the other side still supports the blasted turtle. Retaking it will be a strain for Kurzick runner only and will need support (which will be sorely missed on the gates). And respawning Luxons will be able to foil that plan while in the same time pushing thru defenses.
IF the both teams suck, all chances are Luxons will prevail. IF both teams are good, chances are pretty equal, and for that reason I wouldn't call Aspenwood unbalanced.
I'd not go as far as to say that Ft. Aspenwood is unbalaced.
I agree wholeheartedly that problem is in random teams, though. Let's say both conflicting teams are way baad, both Luxon and Kurzick. Guess who'll win out? Luxon.
All you have to do to win really is to attack (already mentioned)...not even defending their turtles. Coz 4xCovard thumper's will take care of any opposing n00bs that come thru. It's fairly easy to retake amber mines with a decent split while the other side still supports the blasted turtle. Retaking it will be a strain for Kurzick runner only and will need support (which will be sorely missed on the gates). And respawning Luxons will be able to foil that plan while in the same time pushing thru defenses.
IF the both teams suck, all chances are Luxons will prevail. IF both teams are good, chances are pretty equal, and for that reason I wouldn't call Aspenwood unbalanced.
Theus
I just want the removal of the Luxon warriors.
So that the luxons will at least have to do something other than kill the nearest blue opponent.They should at least have to guard the turtles.
So that the luxons will at least have to do something other than kill the nearest blue opponent.They should at least have to guard the turtles.
Ninna
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Originally Posted by torquemada
I'd not go as far as to say that Ft. Aspenwood is unbalanced.
I agree wholeheartedly that problem is in random teams, though. Let's say both conflicting teams are way baad, both Luxon and Kurzick. Guess who'll win out? Luxon. |
-- less tactics are needed by the offensive
generik
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Originally Posted by Theus
I just want the removal of the Luxon warriors.
So that the luxons will at least have to do something other than kill the nearest blue opponent.They should at least have to guard the turtles. |
Symbol
It's not impossible to defend. I'll go so far as to say that with the right builds and moderately competent teammates it's pretty easy. But how often do you get that?
ManaCraft
Having played at Fort Aspenwood quite a bit as both Kurzick and Luxon (though mostly Kurzick), I'd say that team composition is definitely what has the biggest impact on which side takes the battle. An obvious observation perhaps, but also equally true. If the Luxon team has a talented healer lending backup to a turtle squad, it's likely a win for the Luxons. If they also have a somewhat decent minion necro, it's all but a sure win.
For some reason I find it's not really possible to get equally "lucky" on the kurzick side. There are no builds that will all but assure victory for your team (as there shouldn't be). Bonding is perhaps what comes closest, and I've played one quite a few times, but ultimately it's a gimmick build that falls to just about any decent enchantment removal. It really often comes down to whether the Luxon side has healers or not. If they do, they can defend their turtles very effectively. They don't even have to lend all that much offensive power to the battlefield themselves, the turtle and the four "Coward!" spamming warriors take care of a surprising amount of the action. The Luxons win the NPC war by default, and then some, without lending any support themselves. Defending the turtles also effectively shuts down Kurzick amber runners, without actually putting any effort into defending the mine itself, given that a turtle squad parked in the middle of the hallway will often cut off the runner's return route.
For my part it's still too early to tell whether the map is imbalanced or not. But I will say that Luxon is definitely the easier side to play.
- Mana
For some reason I find it's not really possible to get equally "lucky" on the kurzick side. There are no builds that will all but assure victory for your team (as there shouldn't be). Bonding is perhaps what comes closest, and I've played one quite a few times, but ultimately it's a gimmick build that falls to just about any decent enchantment removal. It really often comes down to whether the Luxon side has healers or not. If they do, they can defend their turtles very effectively. They don't even have to lend all that much offensive power to the battlefield themselves, the turtle and the four "Coward!" spamming warriors take care of a surprising amount of the action. The Luxons win the NPC war by default, and then some, without lending any support themselves. Defending the turtles also effectively shuts down Kurzick amber runners, without actually putting any effort into defending the mine itself, given that a turtle squad parked in the middle of the hallway will often cut off the runner's return route.
For my part it's still too early to tell whether the map is imbalanced or not. But I will say that Luxon is definitely the easier side to play.
- Mana
Khift
The problem with Fort Aspenwood is that it is simultanously too random and too complex.
When something is both too random and too complex it becomes too frustrating, which leads to calls for nerfs because of observed imbalances.
Well, there is an imbalance, and it isn't on either side, it's on the very concept of it.
When something is both too random and too complex it becomes too frustrating, which leads to calls for nerfs because of observed imbalances.
Well, there is an imbalance, and it isn't on either side, it's on the very concept of it.
Eet GnomeSmasher
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Symbol
Why would people give me Luxon strategy tips? Perhaps because I've, you know, repeatedly asked them to show me what Luxon strategy is required? I mean, I've already listed some of things that Kurzicks need to do to win. These things take at least a modicum of planning and coordination. Why is there no equivalent on the Luxon side?
Again, what strategy do the Luxons need to win? No more hand waving bullshit from you, I want specifics. I did, and I came to the conclusion that you're wasting my time. |
As for Luxon strategies, some are in common with Kurzick strategies as well. Focus on NPCs rather than opposing players. Protect your own NPCs at the mine and your turtle. Trap the gates and mines so that runners are snared. Bring enchantment removal for those pesky bonding monks. Bring mostly offensive skills. Etc etc.
I've been playing on the Kurzick sidea lot more lately because I need amber and I still shake my head at you whining about the imbalance. It was so damn fun trapping all over the base and the mines. The Luxon warriors were ridiculously easy to kill with traps. They just walk into them.
This is a very well balanced mission. They really did it right and it's damn fun on either side....as long as you have people who arent clueless. Now can we stop the cries of imbalance already?
Symbol
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So you're saying that having more strategic options is a bad thing?! What the? Hand waving BS? Why dont you learn to play better before you call anything BS? |
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| As for Luxon strategies, some are in common with Kurzick strategies as well. Focus on NPCs rather than opposing players. |
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| Protect your own NPCs at the mine and your turtle. |
Quote:
| Trap the gates and mines so that runners are snared. |
Quote:
| Bring enchantment removal for those pesky bonding monks. Bring mostly offensive skills. Etc etc. |
Quote:
| I've been playing on the Kurzick sidea lot more lately because I need amber and I still shake my head at you whining about the imbalance. It was so damn fun trapping all over the base and the mines. The Luxon warriors were ridiculously easy to kill with traps. They just walk into them. |
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| They really did it right and it's damn fun on either side....as long as you have people who arent clueless. |
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| Now can we stop the cries of imbalance already? |
Eet GnomeSmasher
First you cry about how no one is giving Luxon strategies because there are supposedly none. Then I give a few, which by the way, I never said is the ONLY way to do things, and you dismiss it all.
If you can't use those strategies and tips, that's fine. But dont cry about how there isnt a plan or organization to Luxon play as well. I'll say it again, learn to play. Even the players on the Kurzick side laughed when I mentioned that there are some that were whining about this imbalance.
If you can't use those strategies and tips, that's fine. But dont cry about how there isnt a plan or organization to Luxon play as well. I'll say it again, learn to play. Even the players on the Kurzick side laughed when I mentioned that there are some that were whining about this imbalance.
Symbol
Quote:
| First you cry about how no one is giving Luxon strategies because there are supposedly none. Then I give a few, which by the way, I never said is the ONLY way to do things, and you dismiss it all. |
Quote:
| But dont cry about how there isnt a plan or organization to Luxon play as well. I'll say it again, learn to play. Even the players on the Kurzick side laughed when I mentioned that there are some that were whining about this imbalance. |
On the other hand all those things I listed for Kurzicks? You _have_ to do them unless your individual players completely outclass the ones on the other side.
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| Even the players on the Kurzick side laughed when I mentioned that there are some that were whining about this imbalance. |
ChildeOfMalkav
Lol. Still bitching about this? Hey symbol if you think the strats are bad then how is Gnome still winning his battles? You must suck badly if he can use his bad strats and still win and you can't.
I am a kurzick and I win more than I lose. I see no other Kurz's bitching about this other than a very few like you. When the amount of good Kurzick players = good Lux players, Kurzicks still have an advantage because all you need to do is cause a stalemate and hold out. Ask yourself what you are doing wrong.
I am a kurzick and I win more than I lose. I see no other Kurz's bitching about this other than a very few like you. When the amount of good Kurzick players = good Lux players, Kurzicks still have an advantage because all you need to do is cause a stalemate and hold out. Ask yourself what you are doing wrong.