Petition to seperate PvP from PvE

/notsigned

Separate the PvP and PvE a little more, but you MUST at some point make PvE players do PvP. Some people may never actually play PvP, and miss out on something that they could truly enjoy. Don't make the really important PvP missions forced upon PvE players, make the lesser ones.

ANet wants people to play both PvP and PvE, so there was bound to be some sort of incorporation in Factions.

Also, I think a lot of people are overreacting to this problem...talking about ANet going out of business because no one will buy Chapter III? What????? That makes NO sense...Factions has only been out a MONTH, may I remind you, give ANet time to fix some of the problems Factions has (though the issue addressed on this thread WILL NOT be fixed), and wait for Chapter III to see what innovations that they will put in. Undoubtedly, they will learn what people want more off/less off after each chapter, so just give them time.

Oh I read it, and it was blather to me. Your "commentary" was as stale as week old opened soda and had no taste or fizz. I've seen the same copy and paste argument many times in other games. It had absolutely nothing said about /signed or /not signed. In fact the whole attempt at tearing apart an opinion (my opinion) is really moot point to me, which is why I... umm, how was it you put... bow out. Not worth debating an opinion as we are each entitled to our own.
However, if you really must wonder how you proved my point, I'll point it out, though I was going to let it be.

You here even state that PvP and PvE when mixed exploit the system and the paragraph before it, "take the shortest route". Therefore, by removing the two as a whole, each side would have to earn it's own and play within itself. Which was my point all together.
You also oddly state I blamed PvP for something. I never did, I blamed PvEers that go AFK and Leech the game play to achieve their goals.

Here your understanding of what a "mini-game" is, shows a rather out of touch point of view. It seems you take "mini-game" as meaning PvP all together and are trying to defend something that needs no defending. PvP mini-games are refered to as Jade/Aspen and sometimes the Challenge missions (as people compete for points). They are not "true" PvP ala deathmatch/ctf/domination etc.

Have I played other online games? lol - Umm, lets see. Started out of EQ beta, Then Asheron's Call, then back to EQ, then to AC2, then that mess of a PvPvE game Shadowbane, then EQ2, and now this. Considering my first game I ever played was Pong, I've pretty much tried as many as I found interesting. One you mentioned was DOAC. That one looked like literal crap to me and the PvP turned me away as it looked dull and pitiful in contrast to the others that were out at the time. For comparison, AC/AC2 and Shadowsbane all had a huge PvP following and each suffers from the same issues when trying to mix the two playstyles.

Now, instead of trying to discredit someone who's opinion you will never change (I'm too old and cranky), how about trying to add something semi-useful on why or why not the two should be seperated?

As I suggested, the only things that really need to be removed from each other is the linking or locking of content (quests, missions, or skills in PvP) being reliant on each other. Remove those bonds and many more people will be happy... or at least happier. Which is... the topic at hand. Not whether or not you agree with or disagree with me.

Quoted for the truth.

However Assassins are regeted both in PvP and PvE

Why MUST you make PvE players play PvP? I think (though I may be wrong) that most PvE players have tried PvP at some point and have decided that they don't like it. Now you want to force them to do it?


And how are they going to learn unless we have discussions on the fansites about what we would like to see?

You see, I don't really care if you agree with me or not. I just want to start a legitimate discussion so Anet has some idea of what we want to see in the future. Note: In the future! I'm not asking for drastic changes (just small adjustments) to a chapter that has already been released.

All that means is that there is room for improvement. Removing something never adds to a game. I also find that comment strange, because bringing up leeching now as a reason for seperating pvp and pve is amusing since the "afk" guy getting run through a mission or powerleveled is common pve behavior between many games. So, rather than go forward with a solution that actually does something about it, you would rather than amputate something that has nothing to do with it. Perhaps whenever someone has allergies or catches the flu we should amputate their head to fix the problem.

Considering the varience between the different objectives between pvp, you have no point. Every mission is a mini game then, poorly tied together with a weak attempt at a plot and arguably in a manner that doesnt make clear sense to any standpoint based from the position of attempting to suspend disbelief from either a game mechanics or pure intelectual standpoint.

Wow, unstructured pvp at its worst in some cases. Shadowbane would take the cake out of those you played and was a overal weak title to begin with, with less content than most of the others. Considering you have supposadly been on the bandwagon so long, i would have also expected UO among those as well. I also wouldn't have been surprised if you included lineage in the aforementioned titles. At some point you are going to have to recognize the difference between structured pvp settings and unstructured ones and the impact they have upon the game setting when there is conjecture regarding seperation between the two.

Well gee, since it was attempting to compete with EQ, that comment doesnt come as much of a surprise. Your experience would have held more weight if you could have compared say lineage 2 versus DAOC, but since you played neither you dont really belong in the conversation really. Basing your entire opinion off of a couple games that did deliberatly seperate the pve and pvp community, solely due to the fact that the pvp was unstructured, doesn't give you much experience on the matter. This would be in addition to a few that didnt bother to seperate them at all. The real shock out of all of it was saying that ac and ac2 looked interesting but DAOC didn't, but whatever.

Actually i couldnt care that much about your opinion specifically, but i did care that you were actually attempting to put forward an effort without providing any valid reason as to why and how it would benefit people or the designer's time in doing so.

Actually you never even bothered to mention that in the first place. Only that the game would be better off because of people who exploit things. One of my first points was that they have always existed and in formats where there was no transferable gain between pve and pvp from the moment there were tangible rewards in a format where they did not need to coordinate with other people. To which you gave no rebuttal, only dissmissed it entirely.

Then you go on about how the quality of the game suffers, but failed to realize that the core of the game was based around the limited resources aspect that defines many pvp only games. One of these being commonly likened to guildwars is magic the gathering. So, what is next, allow people to hot swap in any skill or move attribute points at any time?

You continued to go on by talking about pve rewards and just ignored the fact that the rewards between the two arent exactly balanced to begin with and biased towards the pve side. You didnt even begin to scratch the surface with alliance battle issues, which would have been easily argued as a possible failure due to it being a central feature introduced with this chapter. Instead you just focus on rewards. This would be an example of tunnel vision at its finest. Then again, you arent genuinly interested in the pvp aspect anyway, so why would you care. Just make the game pve only and you will be happy right?

Beyond that was a baseless hypothesis that doesnt really hold much ground and didnt really support anything. Not that you really brought up actual game mechanics problems to support your ideas and valid solutions to fixing them. What only existed was broad dismissal of pvp entirely and to seperate it from pve. You did choose to bring up another dismissal argument again, but im not entirely sure as to why. Yet, you called my original post a flame. This is amusing in a sense, becuase i was trying to get you to actually bring up a point in the first place that held ground and could be discussed instead of the im right and all of you are wrong drivel that occur too commonly.

As far as making people happy, i believe the thread was about trying to stop fights between people who veiw themselves as a pve or a pvp player with content additions and how people could go about playing the game in their own way. The only major failing along these lines is the temple of the ages being linked to victories in the halls of hereos, which has been a point of contention for as long as i remeber, but largely dismissed by the "top end" pvp community as they were focused on GvG venues. This has nothing to do with factions specifically. Even when the faction line moves, it doesn't affect the pve content at all, so you really do not have a point beyond aknowledging people that exist who use script or bot programs to play the game for them. That would belong in a different thread perhaps.

/Signed. Only because I am a pvp only, but I would be pissed off if I was forced into pveing in order to pvp. I can understand where you are coming from.

/not signed
ANET's original intention with Guild Wars is to let players:
1. Finish the game using their RPG (PvE) characters
2. Use their RPG (PvE) characters to play PvP

My stand is that, ANET should continue to do their best to achieve this goal -
Unity of PvE and PvP.

Meh, you still haven't added anything to the thread. I'll not respond to another of your posts untill it admits to being a flame and you understand that an opinion needs no factual basis to be an opinion. I would love to just see a /sign or /nto signed and a reason why from you. I still have no idea where you even stand on the issue.

You admit there are exploits between the two playstyles, which I feel unlinking the two would solve. Not saying do away with one or the other, but unlink them, or seperate the two. So I would guess you are for it. Then you contradict yourself while attempting to derail an "opinion" (a silly thing to waste time on). You even attempt the ever popular "Straw man" arguments to attempt to pull away from the topic (often done by those with no opinions on topics and just want to argue) by asking "my credentials" (how lame is that?. And lastly you claim I have no point, made no point, yet the very first post I made had several points. If you missed them, sorry for you.

/bored

Real petitions rarely result in anything to begin with. Why do you think a grossly redundant thread full of back and forth diatribe is going to succeed where a normal Petition would fail?

/notsigned

I agree on some points however. Dont force people to do what they dont want to however. For example getting 10k faction you can either repeat the supply runs over and over and over or pvp. What if you only want to pve? The two can work well together but it shouldn never be forced upon someone.

Anet does pay attention to the fansite forums, and although they don't mention that changes are the result of petitions a lot of the changes made were, at one time, petitions on the fansite forums. If enough people say they want something, Anet will try to accomodate them.

As far as the "grossly redundant thread full of back and forth diatribe". Unfortunately many threads end up that way, usually due to two (sometimes more) people who obtain satisfaction from arguing back and forth. (Personally, it often becomes quite boring trying to read the very long posts that repeat the same thing over and over). Since the OP's have no way of moderating their own threads, this cannot be prevented.

The OP does have the choice not to join in it, though.

That remark is difficult to respond to without joining in on the useless diatribe. Up to this point I have not been guilty of that, and if I did have the option to moderate my own thread your last post would definitely be deleted.

Now, would you like to offer something of use that is on topic?

Reply to Sanji's post below: We all make mistakes. Human nature. And thanks for adding your honest opinion

Actually, that was my fault for not paying attention, I was under the misconception that WasAGuest was the OP due to how vigorously he took charge of the thread. I apologize for posting without doublechecking.

There's not much to add. Guild Wars was intended to blend PvE and PvP, by trying to rip them apart you dilute the best part of this game. If you want a mostly PvP or PvE venue, there are plenty of games available that caters to these playstyles. No matter how rough and clusmy Anet's attempts to combine these two methods of play, I still appreciate it. If anything I think it would be best for Anet to further the intergration of PvE and PvP, but in a more thoughtful and less heavy handed way.

Forum scuffles are going to happen regardless. If not PvP vs. PvE, people will pick something else to bicker about. Your suggestion won't fix human nature but does break the foundation that this game was built upon.

/notsigned

No way Must you force anyone to do anything they don't want to do. Some of us are adults, and have the right to choose what to do and not to do.
I have tried PvP, don't like it, will not do it.

/notsigned Like sanji(BTW love the avatar sanji^^) says Guild Wars was made to blend PvE and PvP and besides that fact PvE'ers can earn faction without PvPing Gyala Hatchery anyone? THere are also quests like scouting the coast, not just supply lines.. Guild Wars is not a linear game dont try and make ti that way.

can anybody explain to me how i can play 12vs12 battles? i only bought factions last week and some people are telling me the 12vs 12 battles are pve chars only.

Quoted for truth. Once again,
/not signed to spilt PvE and PvP

/signed for ANET to continue to do their best to united the PvE-only community and the PvP-only community

Actually, I was wondering, how many people like both PvE and PvP?

In prophecies alot of people complained about the favor system. All it did was create problems for those that play PvE. In factions problems were amplified now that the PvP and PvE are more closely tied together.

There are those that do PvP, those that do PvE and those that do both. A total seperation wouldn't do much good. What is needed is a connetion between them in such a way that all three player types are satisfied but just remove how one has an impact on the other; how one puts limits on the other.

So /signed to seperate the two but ony seperate their influence upon each other while leaving the inter-connectivity between them.

Firstly I'm Pve Pvp


now then @wasaguest you do realize that if your opinion is not based on facts then it can be argued against right? I mean believe what you want but thats a way of discussion that is perfectly acceptable.

reading both yours and phades points I would recommend that you would do well to shorten your posts to "I think this" without reasons because if you give reasons then it cna be disputed and if you don't want people arguing your opinions then jsut phrase them as such

what he did was point inaccuracies in things which clearly you state as factors in formulating your opinion

an opinion based on false information is not quite as useful as one based on true circumstances

Phades post was not done in a tone that could be considered a flame and I take offense that you would dismiss without real discussion someone who took tha tmuch time to go through your own statements point by point.


all of that aside the point remains what are logical reasons for separating the two.

/signed

im sick of having to go idle in PvP Just to earn some faction
it sucks theres 2 quests in which you can earn faction in pve and you can do them solo so its not exactly pve also the have nerfd pve and not fixed glitches in it and i dont see why the loosing side should get points for faction. i dont get points if i fail to complete a quest

I gave that idea in this fourm and mod banned me for that idea. I knew from the start this would be a major problem. Why do I think this because ant target markets rpg players. The vast amount of people buying gw is rpg players. Anet has soo move so far from they promised it is not even funny. If you keep pushing pvp down prg players throuts you going to find gw going fast on it death bed. That is all I am going say on the topic.

what I had said is to have the 3 game styles in the game.


pvp should have all their skills.

pvpve should have what they want

rpg play the way they like.

Noone is being forced to pvp or pve. I dont see why people are complaining about this issue. If you dont want to pvp, then dont. Its as easy as that. Noones not puttin a gun in your face and saying you have to pvp or pve just because you dont want to.

Anet is trying to pull the two groups, pvp and pvers closer together. Splitting them isnt the solution.

/not signed

Can a PVP player please explain to me why you want us PVE players to play PVP so much? I keep hearing as an arguement that PVE players need to try PVP and that we will like it once we give it a chance. Yet I have never heard the opposite, a PVE player asking PVP players to try PVE because you might like it.

Whats the rational behind trying to get PVE players to PVP? Really I want to know. Its not like your going to want to play with us since we will be unranked.

/signed so that Anet never makes the moronic move of instituting a favor system in future chapters (I still hold out hope that they will change the current one at some point).

/signed to keep pure PVP characters seperated from PVE characters. The only fun PVP experience I have had is with Fort Aspenwood. And this is because the teams are random and there are fewer hard core PVP players. Its fun casual play and I am not rank descriminated against. If Anet were to change it so organized teams could go in and PVP toons could play then I would never visit there again.

Disassociating the 2 styles so one does not influence the other is the solution.

Keep the inter-connectivity as Hunter stated with the PvE skill and item unlocks resulting in unlocks for PvP.

Remove (or modify) the dependency of one region winning and holding HoH from granting access to UW/FoW. Remove (or modify) the acquisition and holding of HzH and Cavalon for granting access to the Elite Missions.

/signed

Almost all pvp players have little to no choice about doing pvp, to remain competitive we must get pve equipment and armors, all of us also note that getting skills is far easier in pve and therefore is th emost efficient way to do it.

we must play pve to be competitve in pvp.

QFT

I don't mind an ocassional PvP match, but 98% PvE for me FTW.

I wonder if Anet/NCsoft will rotate on each chapter; one more PvP content, and another more PvE? This way it would balance out as each type can, if wanted, get every other chapter.

That said, PvP and PvE cannot be totally seperated without some serious issues arising. All they need to do to keep both sides happy is have tons of PvE content to keep the grinders happy like they did in Prophesy's, while adding more PvP content to keep the PvPers happily engaged. Do this without forcing each side to do the other, except if desired.

Case in point, I logged 1000+ hours in Prophesy's, and out of that perhaps played 8-10 GvG, 20-30 arena games. These were totally voluntary. Since the game was so rich with things to do, and places to explore, I stayed happily focused without having to do anything. Heck, most of it was with henchies as I'm a father of two little kids, and rarely can commit myself to a party of humans.

I like having the option to PvP, so /unsigned on the seperation, but /signed on more unrepetitive PvE content to keep my wanderlust sated.

A slow unhurried story, with a light touch of human interaction is a beautiful thing to me, lol

pasted from page 1.

Definition of opinion:

o·pin·ion (ə-pĭn'yən) pronunciation
n.

1. A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof.

Link to the definition: Hope that helps

thats exactly my point couching your speech in a way that obscures that the only thing you have is an opinion is deceptive and wastes our time


the simple point was you should have just stated your opinion once and then left. reiterating it is only served if you are trying to convert people to your baseless opinion. a wrong opinion is still wrong whether you believe it or not.

and by wrong i mean based on false information.

one single post of my opinion is enough more than one seems suspiciously like something other thna an opnion which you are posting.

your feelings matter but not to the same degree that the facts of the case matter. at least not in my opinion.

That was my point as well, that is was opinion, my opinion. Which I stated in each response, including yours. However, it seemed as though it was being taken as fact or something. Had, what I said not been seemingly taken as fact or something, then I would not have responded. I just wanted to make sure that it was known that it was not anything more than opinion... and trying to derail an opinion (IMO ironically) is a waste of time.

There is also no such thing as a wrong opinion; as "wrong" is the opinion of the person who doesn't agree with the others' opinion. Best example here: PvP is as boring as watching paint dry. That's my opinion and anyone who says otherwise is "wrong".

That's all. /wave

Just wanted to let ya know, since you quoted what I said, that I made a spelling correction in one particular sentance that changed the entire meaning of that sentance.

i love your idea that is what I was trying to say in my post that I had made. we are both in agreement.

/Not signed, I think...

I am one of the most rifted by the conflict of PvP v PvE.

I rarely PvP because of the lack of respect and issues with the system that I find there. I have done it while waiting for PvE friend to come on-line.

I would like to see PvP changed by:
1) No one may map out while in combat.
2) If disconnected the character remains in combat under control of AI.
3) If reconnected the player waits until AI is done before they may again have control of any character. (But maybe let them watch the match as an observer: Your account is currently engaged in combat. Please wait.)
4) Characters played by the AI earn no rewards from the encounter.
5) Charcters must meet before and after a match and /solute to begin and again to end the match. No match starts until this is done.
6) Any players making remarks which may be found offensive (especially those of sore winners and sore losers) are banned progressively until permanent.
7) Rewards, purchasable with faction, allowing change of hair style to one of the faction you are spending, changes of armor skin to one of the faction you are spending, changes of weapons skins to one of the faction you are spending, etc.
8) While equiping a faction purchased item, or style, NPC reactions to you are madified the amount of that faction purchase.
9) Allow Favor to continue controlling the times when the avatars appear and provide boons at shrines.
10) Eliminate the control over PvE access to UW/FoW.

Integrating PvP and PvE is not an issue if the following distinction is held:
1) Competition is something players do together denoting achievement of the best results with extra reward, and all effort with reward.
2) Opposition is something players give to computer generated and maintained aggressors in only PvE environments and only exists in a combat manner in gladiatorial arenas. (That is when the foe is a fellow player, they receive the respect of being a fellow player.)

I would like to see changes in PvE as follows:

1) Faction limited to granting special purchase prices or affecting npc reaction.
2) An attainable condition reasonable for a casual (Non-bot) player be introduced that allows access to Favor and Faction controlled content.

Perhaps something that cannot be accomplished by a bot, such as reach a certain place and complete the inscription with the vision the gods give you at the time. That vision would ofcourse be a code that changes. Once the player enters the code their character becomes capable of entering restricted areas.

The code changes each time that player clicks on the generating object. If a bot tries this what are the chances of them hitting a randomly generated code on the first shot. This should be a one person event, parties (including sneaky bots) are not awarded this status based on one persons work.)

Rather than total separation I would like to see effective and correct unification.

Fitz

All competitive PvPers are forced to PvE for multiple sets of armor, and for items. It is also much faster to unlock skills in PvE, than to unlock them in PvP. Every competitive PvPer that I know(including myself), does infact play PvE, and many even enjoy it(myself included). This is why you never see PvErs say that PvPers need to PvE. They already do.

I'd say the reason many PvPers encourage PvErs to play PvP is to eliminate the misunderstanding that many PvErs have about PvP, I'll go into this in more detail later in my post. And because many PvPers used to be PvErs, switched to PvP, and are now having a great time. PvE can't keep you entertained with the game forever, PvP, in my oppinion, can. PvE is static, PvP is dynamic. No one is saying one is wrong, or bad, or not fun(ok some do, but this mostly due to lack of understanding). They're just different, and PvP has a higher replayability in my oppinion, as every match is different. If you really don't like PvP, don't play it, but at least try it out before you decide you don't like it, I'd reccomend doing a few Guild vs Guild battles with your guild, that should give you a taste of what PvP is really about(by all means don't do HA, this will likely make you hate PvP).

Now, as you've said "Its not like your going to want to play with us since we will be unranked." This is not true. Player rank is only earned via Heroes' Ascent, which is considered by many PvPers to be an absolute joke. No one honestly takes rank seriously, apart from hardcore Heroes' Ascent players, infact there are a good deal of players in the top 50 guilds that aren't even ranked, or are rank 3(Last of Master from EvIL, the #1 guild on the ladder, is an example of one who's 'only' rank 3). There are many reasons why this is so, but that's not really relavant to this thread, and is best left for another time.

Just like PvE, you're going to find the immature 12 year olds who are "1337" and think they know everything. There are alot of them at Hereos' Ascent and Random Arenas. No one is denying this. You also find alot of them in PvE pickup groups. Which is why, IMO rule #1 of guildwars is try and avoid pickup groups.

Alot of good PvPers don't want to spend their time playing with players of a much lower skill level, but you can surely find some, and you'll always find people who are around your level. Again, you see this in PvE too, if you're going to try to clear FoW, you don't bring the guy who is probably going to aggro 7 mobs(or drop the book after aggroing 7 mobs, when that trick worked) and end up wiping your party.

I'll also say that PvP players expect people to improve, and want to improve. They also want people to understand the game mechanics, and then use those to try and play as best they can. Alot of people mistake this for being "elitest" or "snobbish." You'll find that most non 12 year olds will be content with you trying to improve, and trying to learn, and will probably even offer you tips. If you aren't willing to ever improve, then PvP is not for you, and you will get flamed when you brag about your 13-19 damage sundering crystalline sword and claim your 15k ascalon armor does infact stack.

PvP is more of a team game than PvE is. It requires much more elaborate teamwork, and this is where alot of people get the impression you can't be a casual PvPer. You can(although I will admit that I am not). You may not 'always' win, or win a majority of the time if you're a casaul pvper, but you'll have fun, which is what counts. Regardless, you need to be a team player, and be willing to use a team build, and probably communicate over a voice chat program like ventrilo or teamspeak. For even more effective play, it's even useful to work out things like a Res order, so you know who resses who, and when, this way you don't have 4 players ressing the same person(especialy if it's say in GvG when you're pushed back to your main gate, and they'll res in 4 seconds).

Because of these misconceptions, alot of PvErs think PvP is not for them, when it just might be. Well, that was a much longer answer than I wanted to type, but hopefuly that answered your questions.






As for this topic, /unsigned to seperating PvP and PvE. It's a horrible idea, and goes against what seems like the goal with factions of uniting PvE and PvP. Instead of having them constantly hating on eachother due to misunderstandings furthered by 12 year olds(happes on both ends).

It would have been far more simple to just write /signed with your post then. It would have saved alot of time. Attempting to back it up with reasoning without facts is meaningless.

I have never entered pvp because there is too much arrogance and testosterone. It's a massacre of peoples ego's and counter ego's I have never and will never go in pvp. Your problem is that this game was really built around the idea of doing both and I can't change that neither can you. It is like part of the ground work of this game, I accept that. From the favor of the gods to the collection of faction in cantha it is laced in too tight, faction would be too easy to get otherwise. What would determine who has the favor of the gods? If we all can enter Fow & UW then no one will because shard & ecto prices would crash. Sorry but you can't have what you want and not destroy the economy.

That's a gross oversimplification of PvP and that attitude hurts the game as a whole. Sure, PvP has some buttheads, but so does PvE. To be honest, when it comes down to it, there really is just as many degenerate internet toughguys in PvE as PvP. They just come in slightly different flavors: Rude Idiots and Obscene Morons.

Random PvP can be a grab bag of awful, to be sure, but it has a certain "unique" charm to it. Just like PuGs and outpost banter. :P

PvE allows you (to some degree) filter out those who you do not want to deal with. PvP is no different, if you find a group of people you know and trust, your experience will generally be positive as long as you are mature enough shrug off idiots you run into on the other team. Someone is eventually going to say/do something reprehensible that you might not like in either mode, you just have to make the best of it and remember it's a game.

thank god you have an opinion....

/notsigned

Be aware that the separation of PvP and PvE is effectively creating two 'pitches' to sell the game. Not feasible.... to bad. And.... I support everyone else who /notsigned this thread.

Could you at least clarify in the main post that you don't want to keep PvE characters from doing PvP, just that you suggest PvP and PvE not affect each other? Seems a lot of people get mad about the idea of not being able to do both.

As for me,
/signed
Please let PvE have a way to earn access to all areas without PvP involvement, and give PvP rewards for PvP stuff, not PvE rewards for PvP stuff. Then everyone gets to play the type of activity they want and get the corresponding rewards for it. Play both, get both. Play one, get one. Common sense produces happier customers.