Improvements on the Assasin

Spoony

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2006

Just chillin', Playing Gw

Rurik Is A Suicidal Maniac [ftw] - Recruiting people for HA

26 May 2006 at 20:14 - 1

In this topic, i would like to discuss and know other people's opinion on a certain topic. Many assasins happen to be rejected by classical teams, as they havent got that something that would make them as good as any other class. Id like you, to say what would You like to be changed in assasins.

In your posts, dont write stuff like, how should assasins behave, or some other stuff that Anet can't change. Write what changes would you like to welcome in an update for an assasin. That could be many things such as:

- Assasins armor stats or/and look
- Assasins Skills
- Anything else that you think should be changed, and can be changed, that is all about assasins

When this thread wares off, i shall take the best ideas and post it in sardelac sanitarium, to save Forum masters the time.

EDIT nr 4!
The ideas already posted both here, and on Sardelac, if you'd like to leave a comment then go this way -> http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3043557

If you know about anything else that haven't been mentioned here in the post, please write a reply

sinican

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2006

SAW

26 May 2006 at 22:56 - 2

i blame it all on the dependancy assassin have on critical strikes and how the critical strike chance lessens dramatically after lvl 20 because of the higher level of the creatures...

retroactively affects the entire class

critical strikes is needed to sustain energy to deliver conditions sustain defence and to supply health regeneration... there are quite a few nice skills that depend on landing a critical strike that all become pretty much useless half way through cantha because its harder and harder to land the strikes

the class is very dependant on 3 of the 4 stats way too much... which lessens that types of builds and lessens uniqueness from asn to asn...

Critical Strikes should play more part in how often the asn can land a strike... currently Dagger Mastery offers higher critical strike chance...

and to go further something else that could have made the asn more usable is the ability to dbl strike... which is completely null if you use attack skills... and if you dont use attack skills you no longer have that high dmg that asns are good for(THE ONLY THING THEY ARE GOOD FOR)

come to think of it that says it right now the only thing asns are good for is dmg spiking and though they can dish out that dmg they cant maintain that ability because they get chewed up so bad by everything...

its like having a smiting monk without the healing capabilities or the range...

the asn needs to be able to sustain their dmg output and right now the only good defence for the asn is to retriet

what good is the dmg if you cant stay alive long enough to deliver it

lord_shar

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2005

near SF, CA

27 May 2006 at 00:56 - 3

70 armor is perfectly fine for a ranger or other long range damage dealer, but not a primary melee class like an assassin. This is why the current assassin gets so little or no love from the general GW PUG's. Yes, they are great at delivering damage but can never perform sustained melee combat without a warrior secondary.

I would suggest ANET raise base end game assassin armor from 70 up to 75 or even 80. This would allow them to be a little more survivable without being over-powered.

JMHO...

LaserLight

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2005

La La Land

[NOVA]

27 May 2006 at 01:57 - 4

Armor's fine. Damage isn't.

All Dagger Mastery skills should recieve a +10 damage boost, minimum. Assassins have limited defenses and armor barely above caster levels and as has been pointed out, are typically reliant on three of their four attributes to be effective. Their attack skills aren't as flexible as a Warrior's either, though I do like the combination system. Still, these guys should be hitting like the Wrath of God whenever they unload, and they just aren't. Yes, a proper Dagger stream can out-punch most Warrior's attacks, but they require an extra attack to do so (GPD->Horns->Spider->Twisting vs. Evis, Exec., Pen.) and a good deal more delicate preparation. And even then, it only works because we get six attacks to their three with aformentioned combos.

A shot of steroids please, Anet.

LaserLight

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2005

La La Land

[NOVA]

27 May 2006 at 02:05 - 5

Crap, double post. Pardone moi.

*Self-immolates in shame*

Lambentviper

Banned

Join Date: Nov 2005

Noobs Just Took Halls [WTF]

Mo/E

27 May 2006 at 02:37 - 6

In PvP i think the assassin is way to powerful. Not that i mind, as killing monks wthout them casting is quite fun...but today i made 4k faction in RA in 2 hours....and got about 5-6 complaints of my assassins damage capabilites.

Shroud of Silence, then follow through with a 2 dual-attack skill set and the monk it gone!!

Valerius

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2005

Canada

27 May 2006 at 02:40 - 7

imo... armor, weapons and attributes are fine

the skills need to be changed tho...

such as having only one DM AoE attack... which is Death Blossom... sure it's a great skill... but it is also a Duel Attack and has a 12 sec recharge... if you miss that offhand attack your even more useless then what you already are in PvE... imo they should add a lead and offhand DM AoE attack

sinican

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2006

SAW

27 May 2006 at 03:34 - 8

yea... i know why ppl wont take assassins its because they suck like Noobs toward endgame... even earlier...

crap has been killing me in 2-3 hits...

cant be self suficient because the healing and defence capabiltiies are severely lacking...

you had to expect their would be imbalance eventually since mobs get lvl 20+ all players are stuck at lvl 20 and a lot of the assassins abilities depend on landing critical strikes to sustain energy/health/defence... it just isnt possible to keep up with anything lvl24 or higher...

at the least with the way the assassin is set up they should be able to swoop in to a group take something out and have a chance at the least...

Im taking way to much dmg out here....

perhaps shadow arts should passively provide a chance to evade or something...

and assassin should totaly be able to 1 on 1 something... what kind of assassination attempt is this crap... you cant take anything out without help anymore...

yea im ranting but its rediculous how bad we alll suck even if we do have the best "assassin" build if that build still sucks compared to eveyrthing else...

rangers healers warriors have better defensive skills than we do... if we are supposed to be dmg dealers how comes we cant even stay in the fight long enough to kill something without haveing to RUN LIKE A SISSY...

where are the counter attacks throws kicks chokes

LaserLight

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2005

La La Land

[NOVA]

27 May 2006 at 05:37 - 9

We're Assassins, not streetfighters

lord_shar

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2005

near SF, CA

27 May 2006 at 05:57 - 10

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaserLight

We're Assassins, not streetfighters

Still, I agree in theory with that, but I still think the answer is to hit harder, not hurt less. Hurting less is the Warrior's approach, and if we get more and more defenses and better armor, soon we'll just be skinnier Warriors with shorter blades. this is the Assassin here, folks, the master of the single-target kill. We don't need more AoE attacks, we don't need better defenses, we don't need a passive dodge bonus in Shadow Arts (though it would be nice, and broken as hell on a W/A), we need to be able to hit someone like a dump truck on NOS and leave them wondering where their marbles are. That's what Anet promised us with this class, and it's a promise I hope like hell they'll eventually keep! The problem with the "improved offense" approach is that spike-damage output goes through the roof and takes any sort of game balance with it. As of now, a single assassin can singlehandedly drop any spell caster faster than any other class. The assassin has plenty of offense and condition delivery, so why increase the already-high damage numbers even higher? Yes, they don't do well in direct frontal assaults vs. heavily armored targets, but this was done by intentional design. Assassins are supposed to be able to kill with well placed strikes, stealthy efficiency, and hit/run tactics. They are not supposed to be instant-kill melee-caster hybrids.

Right now, most assassins fold with just a couple monsters hitting them simultaneously, hence my suggestion for minor armor level improvement. Ranger-level armor is not feasible for assassins given the ranger's missle-based offense vs. the assassin's melee skill foundation. The armor should not be as heavy as warrior armor, but it should be better than ranger leather armors.

LaserLight

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2005

La La Land

[NOVA]

27 May 2006 at 06:19 - 11

Anyone else been observing/reading match reports? We're almost always relegated to the roles of NPC hunter and flag harassment from what I've seen, with relatively few people bothering to use Assassins in this squishy-squisher mode everyone paints them as. I'm not asking for two hits to slay God, but I suppose what I want is enough damage capacity to pressure away even the Almighty Gods of Warr. As it stands, the overweight middle-aged men wielding lumberjack equipment scare the average Assassin shitless, and that is Not Right.

Damage boosts, Anet. Give us the blistering hand grenade with feet you promised.

SparhawkJC

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

The Amazon Basin

R/Me

27 May 2006 at 17:42 - 12

I really think we have a problem with armor. Look at the other "non-squishie" characters. Warriors get 80 armor and +20 against physical. Rangers get 70 armor and +30 against elemental. I think the benefits of nightstalker armor should have been for all assassin armors. 70 armor is fine, but no inherent bonuses? Sure we get another pip of energy, but how often does that come into play with zealous daggers and criticacl strikes investment?

sinican

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2006

SAW

27 May 2006 at 18:12 - 13

we need one or the other...

obviousely Assassins are fine PvP wise... as has been said they can deliver ample dmg and get their chains off in PvP.... the assassin does accell because of those critical strikes and sometimes though dbl strikes they are what gives us our energy and in some cases out health back

the problem is that in PvE creatures are lvl 20+ and those criticals that make us viable and those dbl strikes are harder and harder to land until it gets to the point that critical strikes and dbl strikes are almost non existant (aka lvl 28 creatures)...

there needs to be some point where creatures lvl 20+ dont have better chance to avoid our dbl strikes and critical strikes that is part of the reason we are useless expecially when 2/3 of Cantha consists of lvl20+ creatures...

critical strikes and dbl strikes perhaps should be relative to how our weapon dmg works... that at lvl 20 we are at fll potential with our skills and the only thing that should be affected is the dmg our criticals do vs creature armor not whether we land them or not...

it affects everything for some of us... i cant get those heals if i cant land a critical hit i cant regen that energy cant refresh my defences cant cause them to bleed with sharpen daggers ...

again i state that assassins are great all the way up to when creatures are over lvl 20 then we can do nothing to stay viable... we cant get better chance of crits or dbl strikes and our armor is that of a ranger(distance) yet we have to be in the meat to do our dmg...

yes we can take out single targets but at the same time we are getting lvl 20+ creatures we are also getting large mobs where is imposible for our assassins to take on a single target without getting blasted to heck by everything...

when ur against lvl 24+ elementalist we cant even solo them they kill us in a few hits before we can get the full chain off... thats obsurd...

if we trully are meant to be backline fighters then yes our armor should have better protection against NON-MELEE attacks at the least...

Im ok with the dmg i do im ok with my armor im not ok with our survivability... we are force to be up close to deliver our dmg yet we cant take the heat needed to be there...

lord_shar

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2005

near SF, CA

27 May 2006 at 18:49 - 14

Another suggestion: please re-evaluate temple strike. 25 seconds recharge seems insane for an elite delivering two short-duration conditions. ANET should consider 20 seconds (still higher than the original 15, but more useful than the current 25). As it is coded now, temple strike isn't really elite-class worthy.

Lambentviper

Banned

Join Date: Nov 2005

Noobs Just Took Halls [WTF]

Mo/E

27 May 2006 at 19:06 - 15

For now i am just using Temple Strike to scare of warrios when they come to me. They see they are blinded then they leave me alone for a whole 4 seconds!!

Beguiling Haze pretty much owns Temple Strike by way of dealing with Casters, so Temple Strike does need to be fixed.

But i dont think enough people are looking into Critical Defenses. ANet reduced recharge time (im pretty sure) so that you can use it more. Take advantage of it when you can.

But whoever said we cant go 1 on 1 without more help is very wrong. Assassins are THE 1v1 characters. Dropping 400 damage to a monk or mesmer in a little over 6 seconds has something to be said for it.

Yukito Kunisaki

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2005

Chicago, IL

W/N

27 May 2006 at 19:18 - 16

The sin's non-elite shadow stepping skills are ridiculous in recharge.

I'm with Laser Light on this vote though. Stuffing a sin is akin to stuffing a warrior. That said, killing a sin is 10x easier since they don't have the inherent element/physical dmg resistance that warriors and rangers have.

For dying 10x faster, we deserve the chance to kill 10x faster...

Ditch the AoE bullshit skills, only the AoE escape skills like Return and Caltrops deserve to stay.

If the sin's arsenal of offensive moves were to be replaced with point to point nuking tactics, like a more deadly Moebius Strike for instance, that'd be nice.

Also, assassins should be given an armor penetrating skill. Seeping Wound? Degen? We need something that resembles Pentrating X that the other classes have...

Shiro was a warrior style class I believe and Visu [bless her sexy], is an assassin. If Visu can take a Warrior down, a sin should be able to as well. However, even with the armor penetration, a warrior should be able to kill a sin just as quickly if not quicker...

But LET THE SIN'S POWER GROW and his defense shrink.

Shadow Stepping is all the defense you need.

Spoony

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2006

Just chillin', Playing Gw

Rurik Is A Suicidal Maniac [ftw] - Recruiting people for HA

27 May 2006 at 19:22 - 17

Ever tried to kill a Air of enchant prot monk with an assasin? pure waste of energy, and nothing. Assasins are not good in making damage to those that are able to protect themselves pretty well, such as some warriors rangers and little (but still few) monks. I didnt say the dmg on assassins isnt right, the thing isnt right that assasins mostly sacrafice themselves in fight situations. Warriors on the other hand, have heavy armor to deal with any solo opponent. If assasin didnt have so much conditions to give to an opponent, they would be certainly crap. They are always kicked out of teams, they dont have a good use for anything else, than just damage, which imo needs to be changed.

Lamb, consider this. Try soloing any 28 lvl character in pve, like a warrior or a ranger. The diffrence between assasins and any other class that any other class can do it, and assassins cant.

Vincent_v_valentine

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2006

27 May 2006 at 19:24 - 18

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaserLight

Armor's fine. Damage isn't.
A shot of steroids please, Anet. The damage works, its just that you need to make a combo. Anyway the armor is way to low for a close combat character. the attack skills costs from 5-10 energy each, that may work on the paper but not when you fight assasins have 25 energy whith the armor on. and i think they have 32 energy whith the energy-armor. that works on rangers beacous they have expertise which reduses the cost on attack skills. Critical strikes should have a simmilar effect...

Spoony

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2006

Just chillin', Playing Gw

Rurik Is A Suicidal Maniac [ftw] - Recruiting people for HA

27 May 2006 at 19:28 - 19

I cant agree with you on that Yukito. Assasins arent just bombs you need to disarm, or either they will kill you. Assasins shouldnt be the classes killed in just a few hits.

In my opinion, assasins should have defenses similar to a warrior, but other than armor.

In my opinion, Assasin = some sort of Ninja. Like, ever saw a movie involving Ninjas? Theyre defenses are high, but are not placed in armor, it is put somewhere else. When its broken, assasins should have a skill that makes them go out of combat, and regain it. They do have them, return, recall, Aura of displacement does its work.

Imo, thats how the defenses should work in assasins

Spoony

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2006

Just chillin', Playing Gw

Rurik Is A Suicidal Maniac [ftw] - Recruiting people for HA

27 May 2006 at 19:31 - 20

As i said, damage is certainly allright.

a combo of an assasin made of 3 skills should be more powerful than a warrior attack combo made of 3 skills, that way that warrior just does damage, and assasins does the same or a bit more but also makes the foe weaker (for example, conditions or other effects here).

LaserLight

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2005

La La Land

[NOVA]

27 May 2006 at 19:54 - 21

Quote:

In my opinion, assasins should have defenses similar to a warrior

So...damage is similar to a Warrior and defense is similar to a Warrior. Tell me again why you're not playing a Warrior?

Seriously, Assassins are meant to be the next best thing to squishy. I don't want another armored monkey without the sense to come in out of the flaming rain. I agree that the criticals vs. 20+ issue needs to be addressed, but Assassin player or no, I cannot swing for turning them into skinny Warriors. Yes, I know Spoony, the teleport defenses and Sooper Ninja Moovs and such, but...don't we have those already? Perhaps cutting the recharge on Viper's Defense to five, but other than that, we have the Sooper Ninja Moovs.

What we don't have is the whole assassination bit. Now, I normally run a GPD hammer type setup, the dual-offhand-dual-offhand thing, and it's about the biggest pucnh you can get on an Assassin. Reliably, anyways. And the issue with criticals aside, I'm still not seeing the kind of damage ArenaNet promised us.

Assassins have, as has been pointed out by the numerous arrogant Warriors who like to breeze through here and tel us all how much Assassins suck, well over twice the damage-resistance capacity of an Assassin. What I want to know is why that doesn't mean we have, if not over twice the damage output, at least a significant and noticeable even to the average Whammo nOOb damage boost over Warriors.

This class is already schizophrenic. The character's weapon mastery and general style is optimized for a hit-and-fade style of fighting in which the player launches a small number of high-powered attacks. However, many of the Assassin's skills, and indeed what many consider to be its primary healing and defense (Way of Perfection, Critical Defenses) require constant attack to be viable. Dagger Mastery and on-critical skills just don't mesh well. And with the fact that no Assassin can actually manage a small number of high-powered attacks, only a small number of moderately powerful attacks, and it's no wonder we get so many idiots thinking they can't tank it with daggers.

Come on, ArenaNet. If you want people to play this class seriously, repatedly, and intensively, give us a reason to.

Lord Oranos

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

Fort Aspenwood

27 May 2006 at 20:23 - 22

The average warrior cannot best an aod assasin with the normal combo, if hes a tf warrior he might be able to outdamage you, but I doubt it. All you need to do anyway is get in use your combo and get out.

But if a rspike see's you... bend over.

sinican

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2006

SAW

D/

27 May 2006 at 20:30 - 23

I think something that would help an assassins defence a little... going along with the theme that assassins should be in and out fighters NOT Tanks... some of there dual attacks should have a shadowsteping ability on them...

basically take something like Death Blossom and ad onto it so that after the attack the assassin is shadow stepped directly backwards 5-10 tiles/spaces/whatever...

I cant stand how badly the class is getting wooped in PvE... its really retarged that 2/3 into the game we have to play the "ok everyone go in first ill try to flank and land a few hits hoping to finish something off and hope i can get the heck out of the way of agro while doing so"

the debate here is not that we cant pvp its that in PvE once the creatures start popping out lvl 21 or higher we become completely useless other than sacrificing ourselves to take out a few monks/ritualists...

doesnt matter what stepping skill i try to use none of them help me get to my target and keep agro off of me and land at the least a 3 hit chain before i die...

the high crit chance and dbl strikes was a great idea to make the assassin a desired class and a good functioning assassin up until all the creatures pass max char level...

I cant get into a group at this point period... im at the temple to save the emporer against shiro and NO ONE WANTS OR NEEDS ASSASSINS... there are 2 npc assassins inside the mission free to all parties that out perform any human asn... i dont blame anyone for not wanting an asn in there group... and it sucks i just want to be able to play on the same level everyone else is in Cantha that isnt an asn...

last night i had to take henchies and i had them all agro before i even rushed in i couldnt even get a full 3 combo chain off before i was lieing on the ground... 0 survivabilities... and a Death Penaltie cripples an asn more than any other class...

armor could get a slight boost not a lot but a slight one...75-80 or something that gives us more survivability without having to break combat even on 1v1 pve fights...

and I REALL DO DISLIKE HOW THE ASN SKILLS ARE ALL OVER THE PLACE... meaning they dont interchange with each other well... yea there are plenty of lead and offhand attacks and such... but none of these skills have a theme...

like a standard 3 attack chain that does degens a 3 attack chain that does interupts and knockdowns...

yea we all have to pick appart these chains... yea other classes do to but thier skills DONT NEED TO BE EXECUTED IN SPECIFIC ORDER

why isnt there a lead that starts from a knockdown???(iron palm requires a hex or condition which means it REALLY ISNT A LEAD ATTACK NOW IS IT)
and where are all of our poison ATTACKS... we got spider and vipers one is an attack dependant on the target being knockdown the other is a stance not an attack..

and why are a lot of the skills of an assassin following the theme of Monks (not the GW version but martial version)

the asn is mission a whole slew of viability in PvE

Note* i type sloppy and im too lazy to fix the misspelling... as long as the point is clear enough i really dont care

sinican

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2006

SAW

D/

27 May 2006 at 20:40 - 24

this skill would be great...

Shadow Form {Elite} - Enchantment Spell
For 5...17 seconds, all hostile spells that target you fail and all attacks against you miss. When Shadow Form ends, lose all but 5...41 health.

if the asn could actually survive even a single hit but right now eveythign is doing 60+ dmg to me 200+ dmg hits is just BS for not boss creatures

change the "lose all but xx health" to "all skills are disabled for xx seconds" or "lose all but 1-5 energy"

even better make the skill have a -4/-5 energy degen (so that actual degen is -1) and it ends when u hit 0 energy...

that would make the skill completely USEFULL without overbalance... every action performed would lessen energy youd have to rely on timing and critical strikes to actually make it last a little longer than your energy pool and youd almost beforce to use passive attacks or use it as an escape skill... the acutal pip of degen to energy would make it so it cant last forever...

LordLucifer

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2006

A/

27 May 2006 at 21:33 - 25

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki
The sin's non-elite shadow stepping skills are ridiculous in recharge.

I'm with Laser Light on this vote though. Stuffing a sin is akin to stuffing a warrior. That said, killing a sin is 10x easier since they don't have the inherent element/physical dmg resistance that warriors and rangers have.

For dying 10x faster, we deserve the chance to kill 10x faster...

Ditch the AoE bullshit skills, only the AoE escape skills like Return and Caltrops deserve to stay.

If the sin's arsenal of offensive moves were to be replaced with point to point nuking tactics, like a more deadly Moebius Strike for instance, that'd be nice.

Also, assassins should be given an armor penetrating skill. Seeping Wound? Degen? We need something that resembles Pentrating X that the other classes have...

Shiro was a warrior style class I believe and Visu [bless her sexy], is an assassin. If Visu can take a Warrior down, a sin should be able to as well. However, even with the armor penetration, a warrior should be able to kill a sin just as quickly if not quicker...

But LET THE SIN'S POWER GROW and his defense shrink.

Shadow Stepping is all the defense you need. just a note here, they can easily kill warriors, its rare to see a warrior that can kill a good in 1x1, usually cause of luck (since they die in 1 good old KD combo..)

IMO they arent that strong in PvE only, shadow arts could use some kind of boosting, and i agree with the dmg increase, btw why do we have to use 7-17 butter knifes to assasinate ppl?

EDIT: and wth is wrong with deadly arts? they kinda force us to get dagger mastery, crit strikes and shadow arts to be decent (sure can replace shadow with deadly but choices are limited..) what does deadly arts have to be comparable with the other atributes? assasins promise and impale is all i hear abt.... not worth it..

Drizzt Dourden

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2005

27 May 2006 at 23:34 - 26

ah, i like my assa...

only thing they could do is to give the combos a higher dmg. i dont mean the skills itself.
im thinking about an extra-dmg after finishing a combo.
yes, there are more powerfull finishing attacks than the lead-hand, i know that...

still, stuff like theme-combos would be nice.
if you give your foe 3 conditions(bleed, deep wound and poison for exemple) and you do this with a nice 3 attack-combo you add one extra-condition...
or extra dmg

or something like that^^

i also think the attacks should be more powerfull in general. i play a warrior with the dragonslash combo and i must admit it makes much more dmg than i could ever do with my assasin.
ok, id needs some time to charge the adrenalin skills, but as soon as i have my dragonshlash ready i can use it almost infinite.

as a assasine i go in, hit my target really hard and get out. but i dont see the sense in that, if i can just stay there and slash everything to pieces with my warrior without beeing afraid of 3-4 attacks cause they could kill me...

shinja

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Feb 2006

A/R

28 May 2006 at 01:37 - 27

Bump our daggers to 9 19 and make critical hit give an innate gain to bypass dodge/block/evade etc.

This will make us hit slightly harder and slightly more often outside of our combos, and that is in my opinion what is hurting at the moment with regards to straight damage output..its pretty damn easy to e-deny an assassin and make them worthless.

You folks are way more knowledgeable than I regarding defense, so I dont have anything to add here Im afraid. I do feel like a caster who has to be in melee range sometimes.

Hex Nexus

Academy Page

Join Date: Sep 2005

Dragonic Killers

28 May 2006 at 01:43 - 28

The Armor Stats are fine. The point of the Assassin is hit and run. You need to go in make your kill and then back off.

Phades

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

28 May 2006 at 02:23 - 29

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoony
Ever tried to kill a Air of enchant prot monk with an assasin? pure waste of energy, and nothing. Assasins are not good in making damage to those that are able to protect themselves pretty well, such as some warriors rangers and little (but still few) monks. I didnt say the dmg on assassins isnt right, the thing isnt right that assasins mostly sacrafice themselves in fight situations. Well, expunge enchantments will open a hole initially, giving you a little time to try to make a combo, but deadly arts doesnt have enough "tools" of a similar calibur to really warrent a good skill point investment.

From what the assassin's skill sets have is something between a mesmer and a warrior for options. I do not believe that just upping the base damage for assassins is the right route to take, but giving the assassin better tools to cripple or disable the enemy might be in order. Granted they have a couple of eliete choices that can be rather nasty, but elietes cannot be taken together. There are a few interesting ideas like beguiling haze and exhausting failure, that seem like it would be a viable route to take for caster crippling. Unfortunatly they are kinda unwieldy and there are other ways of achieving a similar goal and do not require such precise timing.

I was rather sad to see temple strike nerfed, because it really wasnt needed. If the skill had a huge damage bonus on top of applying the dazed and blind or be able to be used constantly from just the assassin's skill selections, then i would have agreed with it. Temple strike represented a universal method for temporary shutdown of any profession that could be used in a offensive or defensive manner. The fact that rangers were better dagger weilders, due to the cost of the skills/poor energy recovery initially was the only real concern i had with it.

Aside from adding more utility to the existing skill sets or adding skills, making the existing hexes and enchantments more snap casting like the alteration to way of the fox would go a long way as well.

lord_shar

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2005

near SF, CA

28 May 2006 at 08:17 - 30

Assassin armor is definitely insufficient at only L70. End game ranger armor is actually far superior since it gets +30 vs. elemental attacks, thereby bringing its total to 100AL vs. a large bulk of ranged attacks. Assassins should have something similar for melee, not so that they can tank, but so that they can survive long enough to deliver more than a single attack volley.

In hell's precipice, every time my assassin teleported in with AoD to delver an attack sequence vs. a titan, the assassin's health was at 50% or lower before the end of the sequence -- that's roughly 4 seconds, which is completely unreasonable. I can see why many monks despise assassins -- they require constant healing to stay alive. No other melee class requires such excessive monk upkeep.

GerryHYH

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2006

Brighton, England

The Imperial Guards Elite

A/Me

28 May 2006 at 12:36 - 31

To be honest, I think there is alot of updates needed to be done to the Assassin class.

Armour - Yes, think they awful, but they could use some USEFUL bonuses on them, and some unique one too, like each piece of armour makes the assassin 5% faster or something, or more chance to evade!

And to be honest, I think ANET did a crappy job on making "Critical Hit" as primary for assassin, I really really really believe it should be something like "Agility" or something, where the more points you spend on it, the more faster your assassin is! E.g With 15 attribute of "Agility", you have 15% to evade, attack 15% faster and move 15% quicker...

As I said, Assassins at the moment aint "unique" at the moment... even though I love the class, but its just damm awful. Yes, I aint noob who teleport in and die, I use speed a lot, its just that its hard to balance out with ether a successful attack chain or defence one... if you get moi...

As for Deadly arts, most skills are awful... :S

sph0nz

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

none.

W/

28 May 2006 at 14:25 - 32

Meh.. The Assassin armor is alright, but some sort of small bonus would be nice, as would inherent evasion. Which might be overpowered... The next best thing would be to give Assassins an evasive IAS stance in the Critical Strikes line that doesn't blow as much as Lightning Reflexes. It's pretty sad when a Ranger has better stances than an Assassin, and when Rangers are.. ranged, so they won't get hit as much.

Shadow Refuge also needs reworked in some way.. Leaving it as it is and increasing the duration would make it suffice. Or changing it back to how it was in either of the previews. At the moment, it's just sad.

Deadly Arts also needs a boost to really be worth using.

lord_shar

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2005

near SF, CA

28 May 2006 at 15:51 - 33

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faustus The Eighth
Meh.. The Assassin armor is alright, but some sort of small bonus would be nice, as would inherent evasion. Which might be overpowered... The next best thing would be to give Assassins an evasive IAS stance in the Critical Strikes line that doesn't blow as much as Lightning Reflexes. It's pretty sad when a Ranger has better stances than an Assassin, and when Rangers are.. ranged, so they won't get hit as much.

Shadow Refuge also needs reworked in some way.. Leaving it as it is and increasing the duration would make it suffice. Or changing it back to how it was in either of the previews. At the moment, it's just sad.

Deadly Arts also needs a boost to really be worth using. Assassin armor is not adequate in its present form. Just try out some high level Tyrian missions like Abbadon's Mouth or Hell's Precipice with an assassin, and the sub-par armor levels quickly becomes obvious.

I do agree that shadow refuge runs too short to be practical... the fixed 4 second duration is not enough to offset the high damage being sustained due to having only 70 base armor. Why not make its duration scale upward with higher shadow skill level? This would seem to be the more practical choice if armor will not be improved.

On a similar note, why does critical defenses cost 10 energy, last 6 seconds, and take over 30 seconds to recharge? Its recharge cycle should be lowered down to 15 seconds, or duration increased to 10 seconds. As of now, critical defenses is almost impossible to maintain without wild blow (thereby requiring a warrior secondary) or 17%+ enchantment extension item.

Just more hot air...

fallot

I'm the king

Join Date: Nov 2005

Aussie Trolling Crew: Grand Phallus and Chairman Pro Tempore

28 May 2006 at 16:18 - 34

What is needed is PvE content where the capabilities of Assassin's are useful. They are not suited to fighting large mobs, or even bosses (who have many levels over them thus reducing the chance for critical strikes). Unfortunately, PvE in Factions almost invariably means dealing with a dense group of mobs, a situation where an Assassin is understandably inferior to other classes. There are exceptions to this, but they are few and far between.

Sadly enough, the place where Assassins are very useful (Raisu Palace and the final fight with Shiro) is because of their Celestial Ability that summons other units to assist them (making them MMs of a sort).

This actually brings me to a problem I have with Guild Wars' mission system as a whole. Since the game is instanced, it allows for a very large extent of freedom in designing a misson. However, most of them (this holds truer for Factions) are utterly mundane, requiring nothing except the repetitive killing of monsters, or protecting an NPC against repetitive waves of monsters. So much is possible with such a system, yet so little is done. I'd advise ANet to play a bit of D&D online, a game where instanced dungeons are done a lot better (ignoring the game's flaws for the sake of discussion.)

So the problem is not with Assassins at all, that much should be evident from their use in PvP. Rather, the problem is with the rest of the game, and ANet's vision for it. I understand that the game should be casual-friendly, but being casual and being intelligent are two different things. Give missions variety and unique objectives, improve the distribution of monsters and remove the concept of mindless killing for the win. Then, you will have Assassins that are useful in PvE even with 70 armor and Shitty Refuge.

LaserLight

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2005

La La Land

[NOVA]

A/

28 May 2006 at 18:37 - 35

Alright, please stop asking for Assassins to recieve an armor boost. We are Assassins, not frustrated Warriors. Assassins never have and never will possess Warrior-level armor, so stop begging for it! Jeebus, makes me embarrassed to play the class.

Had a big long post on all sorts of stuff to do last night, but GWG ate it, so I'm going to do a reorganized version instead. Essentially, what we need are one or more (preferably more) of the following improvements.

1.) Teleport range 125% aggro bubble radius or more.
Currently, teleport range is the aggro bubble range, and this is unacceptable. In the very brief) duration in which I was using non-Elite teleports because of a lack of access to AoD, I would often trigger aggro simply by trying to utilize my teleports properly due to their ridiculously short range. Ideally, teleport range should be 150% of the aggro bubble radius, but I'll settle for a minimum of 125%. Please fix, Anet.

2.) Increased damage in Dagger Mastery/rework punishments against level 20+ monsters.
There's no reason whatsoever that Assassins should be punished for this so much more heavily than other classes. Unfortunately, I think this is the least likely fix as it's a fundamental design problem. Crit ratio is based on level differences, always has been, always will be. It was simpy that, until now, we didn't have a class reliant on criticals. Still, perhaps the CS critical bonus should be independant of level ratios between characters even if the Dagger Mastery chance can't be. Make CS and Critical Eye independant of level ratios and you'll go a long way towards correcting this, Anet.

3.) Increase hex efficiency (somewhat as Phades suggested), especially Dagger-only Hexes.
Most of the Assassin's Hexes are fine as far as pure performance goes. Their effects are perfectly doable. The problem is, they're too blasted inefficient. Many are expensive, virtually all are too slow-recharging to be of much use. The prime example is Mark of Instability. If I've read this skill right, you can't sling it on an off-Sin Me/A speccing Deadly Arts, since it has to be the caster's Dual Attack that triggers it. Given this, its stats should be 5e, 1/4c, 15r (or even 10r). As it stands, the current 10-1/4-20 makes it simply too inefficient to use. Same with a wide variety of Assassin Hexes.

And the worst are the Dagger-only Hexes, or those that require leads or off-hands. These require not only a spec in Deadly to use properly, they also require investment in Dagger Mastery, which requires investment in Critical Strikes to outweight the advantages of Warrior primary and Axes/Swords/Hammers. Given that...why aren't these Hexes significantly stronger than normal Hexes? The restrictions on their use are considerable, much more so than even other semi-conditional Hexes such as Weaken Knees or other trigger-effect skills, and yet they're no more powerful, and in some cases a good deal less, powerful than the average Necromancer Hex. Hell, Shadow of Fear alone has more innate power than four-fifths of an Assassin's Hex selection. This class was supposed to be a Hexing hand grenade, dealing out both vicious dagger damage and nasty, nasty Hexes, and we have neither. Please fix Anet.

Phades

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

28 May 2006 at 20:18 - 36

Quote:
Originally Posted by LaserLight
1.) Teleport range 125% aggro bubble radius or more.
Currently, teleport range is the aggro bubble range, and this is unacceptable. In the very brief) duration in which I was using non-Elite teleports because of a lack of access to AoD, I would often trigger aggro simply by trying to utilize my teleports properly due to their ridiculously short range. Ideally, teleport range should be 150% of the aggro bubble radius, but I'll settle for a minimum of 125%. Please fix, Anet.
This would be rediculasly unbalancing in pvp. For something like this to even come to pass AoD, return, and recall would have to cease to exist.

Quote: Originally Posted by LaserLight 2.) Increased damage in Dagger Mastery/rework punishments against level 20+ monsters.
There's no reason whatsoever that Assassins should be punished for this so much more heavily than other classes. Unfortunately, I think this is the least likely fix as it's a fundamental design problem. Crit ratio is based on level differences, always has been, always will be. It was simpy that, until now, we didn't have a class reliant on criticals. Still, perhaps the CS critical bonus should be independant of level ratios between characters even if the Dagger Mastery chance can't be. Make CS and Critical Eye independant of level ratios and you'll go a long way towards correcting this, Anet. A change of this nature might be in order, but assassins would be in line for this style of change behind elementalists. The assasssin skill sets still operate like other physical damage dealers, adding damage where its needed, but they end up being energy starved like they were in the preview events. A random chance to get energy, by definintion, is unreliable. The changes that were made suit the level 20 play. Much of the game is balanced around that aspect, so i wouldnt expect a change along this line of thought.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaserLight
And the worst are the Dagger-only Hexes, or those that require leads or off-hands. These require not only a spec in Deadly to use properly, they also require investment in Dagger Mastery, which requires investment in Critical Strikes to outweight the advantages of Warrior primary and Axes/Swords/Hammers. Given that...why aren't these Hexes significantly stronger than normal Hexes? The restrictions on their use are considerable, much more so than even other semi-conditional Hexes such as Weaken Knees or other trigger-effect skills, and yet they're no more powerful, and in some cases a good deal less, powerful than the average Necromancer Hex. Hell, Shadow of Fear alone has more innate power than four-fifths of an Assassin's Hex selection. This class was supposed to be a Hexing hand grenade, dealing out both vicious dagger damage and nasty, nasty Hexes, and we have neither. Please fix Anet. The inherent problem is that the class was designed to "combo" together different skills to create synergy. Other professions were not designed to do this specifically for the majority of their skills. What you end up with, is something similar to the elementalist dogma where you have marginally efficient skills *if* all aspects of the combination stick. By contrast, many of the other professions have skills that do work together, but are not required to. As such they were made stronger independantly and so when used together create a much stronger synergy.

There is alot they can do with the profession still, so i wouldnt give up hope yet. The real question is, how closely are they observing the current situation? Somehow i doubt a major rebalancing is on the horizon anytime soon. The best chance for it would be following the current pvp season finals, but with their development schedual for new content, it could be difficult for ANET to work it in given other game mechanics that could stand to be ironed out, like the alliance battles.

lord_shar

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2005

near SF, CA

28 May 2006 at 21:07 - 37

Quote:
Originally Posted by LaserLight

Alright, please stop asking for Assassins to recieve an armor boost. We are Assassins, not frustrated Warriors. Assassins never have and never will possess Warrior-level armor, so stop begging for it! Jeebus, makes me embarrassed to play the class.

...<SNIP>... No one is asking that assassins get warrior level armors. I play a warrior primary, ranger primary, necro primary, and an assassin primary -- all high level, well equipped, 15k armors, and 90%+ of the available elites.

Warrior armor levels start off at 80+ vs. all, and 95+ vs. physical. Furthermore, warriors have many skills that can push armor levels into the 190+ range.

Rangers get 70 base armor, +30 vs. elements, and +15 vs. specific element types depending on the armor chosen (+115 max). Their ranged combat design allows this to be adequate.

What do assassins get? Flat 70. No bonuses vs. specific attack forms -- just flat 70. What does this mean? It means that assassins has just 12.5% more staying power than a caster (AL=60), yet they have to go to point blank ranges to perform their dagger skills. This makes assassin mortality rate and healing requirements very high, AoD teleports or not. Even if an assassin delivers his/her damage output payload and survives the 4-second round trip, he/she is usually well below 50% health when dealing with high level mobs.

I am NOT asking for 100+ armor levels as you so implied. I'd like to see a reasonable compromise, like 75 armor/ +15 vs. elements, physical, or similar mid-point between present assassin armor vs. other class armors. That's not too much to ask for. Improved self healing might also be appropriate -- Shadow Refuge expires much too soon at only 4 seconds duration.

I can see that we have two opposing mentalities here -- one side wants a pve-balanced toon than doesn't fold in 6 seconds (8 seconds preferred). The other wants an all-out pvp glass cannon. Does this sound accurate?

Phades

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

28 May 2006 at 21:36 - 38

Quote:
Originally Posted by lord_shar
No one is asking that assassins get warrior level armors. I play a warrior primary, ranger primary, necro primary, and an assassin primary -- all high level, well equipped, 15k armors, and 90%+ of the available elites.

Warrior armor levels start off at 80+ vs. all, and 95+ vs. physical. Furthermore, warriors have many skills that can push armor levels into the 190+ range.

Rangers get 70 base armor, +30 vs. elements, and +15 vs. specific element types depending on the armor chosen (+115 max). Their ranged combat design allows this to be adequate.

What do assassins get? Flat 70. No bonuses vs. specific attack forms -- just flat 70. What does this mean? It means that assassins has just 12.5% more staying power than a caster (AL=60), yet they have to go to point blank ranges to perform their dagger skills. Actually if you put a defensive mod into your daggers instead of +hp and use the +AL while attacking you get exactly what you are asking for inherently.

Assassins should have been designed with different defensive mechanics in mind, but instead they were left with parts of other existing mechanics. They really should have been soft target, but with more ways to avoid it, instead of escape/mitigate/heal it. Part of avoiding it can fall to the range issue you brought up, but it could go in many different directions. There were alot of varied ideas in the thread that the community put forward and the closest things to come out of it were dark escape and critical defense.

lord_shar

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2005

near SF, CA

28 May 2006 at 21:41 - 39

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phades
Actually if you put a defensive mod into your daggers instead of +hp and use the +AL while attacking you get exactly what you are asking for inherently.

...<SNIP>... Can you please elaborate? Using the +5 armor weapon suffix pretty much excludes the +30 hit point option, which does not sound reasonable. I'm not certain about "+AL while attacking" mod or skill either (I've seen -10 AL while attacking, but not +10). If you're referring to Flashing Blades (50% block while attacking), it seem to be a waste of an elite slot. Also, this does not address why certain other classes get 100+ armor levels vs. specific attack types, while assassins get no such defense bonus.

Yukito Kunisaki

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2005

Chicago, IL

W/N

28 May 2006 at 22:08 - 40

I wonder, would it be fair to force assassin class armors to be all 60 AL but then double all skill damage?

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