I know it has a fast recharge.
I know it is affected by MoR.
I know it costs 5 energy; just like the inspiration magic interrupts.
I know it is fast casting attribute based.
What I don't know is why it has to suck. Yea maybe if it "returned" the energy back to the mesmer then it would be useful. I still don't see a whole lot of use of this spell though;
"I interrupted your flare!"~mesmer
"Ohh scarry I will just cast it again and you are down 5 energy."~ele
"...damn"~mesmer
I know flare isn't a viable skill; but lets take a look of many of the current "best" skills to use. All of them have fast cast times and fast recharges; obsidian flame, woh, blinding flash, lightning orb...all of these have fast recharges so energy return won't do jack squat.
Say best case scenario; you interrupt a lightning orb on a fast cast nuker with duel attunements. They lose 15 energy due to the cost of the spell; but you lose 5 to your cost, then they gain 5 from your interrupt.
Net:
You down 5
They are down 10
Thats best case; however...we could use our other "fast recharge all purpose interrupt" savage shot...
Net:
You down 5
They are down 15 and 80 damage to the face
Worst case scenario; you interrupt and they don't care. Far too numerous to count really. Monks will simply recast due to fast rc, necros will call it a draw (net energy loss of both players 5, but they have soul reaping as their primary), eles ...well they simply won't care.
Yea its not affected by MoR; but I don't see this skill being used by that build anyway. Savage still interrupts non-conditionally and all skills; no matter what. This only interrupts spells; interrupts only if they are casting a spell; and punishes you for doing so.
Some say it has uses in pve as enamies have limitless energy. I still stand by my saying of "block it or kill it" simply saying either powerblock it to stop it from casting at all; or kill it so it is no longer an issue. Personally I think killing it is the better of the two; but ohh well. In this case we compare the skill to powerspike, cry of frustration...which both cast this spell into the abyss in terms of pve use. Savage shot remains more powerful than this skill; as it can even be used as a spike skill regardless of interrupting at all.
I simply do not see a use for this skill...if it gave you back the energy for countering then it would be viable. I know I would use it; would even throw it into a couple of my builds. That or make it "useful"; give it a unconditional interrupt, and return the energy to the interrupter and interruptee...Yet as it stands now it only punishes the mesmer that carries the spell.
Power Return
Eaimirth Etaivella
Sab
Key word: interrupt. Power Return's sole purpose is to do just that, and to do that cheaply (5 energy cost) and repeatedly (7 sec recharge). It's not a "utility" interrupt, like causing damage (Power Spike) or draining your opponent of energy (Power Leak), the use of Power Return is to simply interrupt.
Why is that useful? To make your opponent suffer the recharge of the spell you interrupted without getting the spell off. With Power Return, as I mentioned before, you can do that cheaply and repeatedly, which is not possible with any other Mesmer interrupt. The closest to a spammable interrupt (other than Power Return) is Power Spike, but that's twice the cost and twice the recharge.
"Block it or kill it" isn't much of a solution. First, using Power Block means you have to sacrifice your elite slot, and requires that you spec into Domination. In some situations this isn't possible, not to mention that Power Block carries a hefty recharge, and that mobs may use skills from different attribute lines (e.g. Lightning Orb and Lava Arrows on Afflicted Eles). "Killing it" goes without saying. If simply killing things was a viable replacement for interrupting, then there's not much point in this discussion.
The thing is, the simple act of interrupting reduces the amount of harm done to your party. Any additional utility to the interrupt, such as damage, or e-denial, or disabling certain skills, is just a bonus.
Why is that useful? To make your opponent suffer the recharge of the spell you interrupted without getting the spell off. With Power Return, as I mentioned before, you can do that cheaply and repeatedly, which is not possible with any other Mesmer interrupt. The closest to a spammable interrupt (other than Power Return) is Power Spike, but that's twice the cost and twice the recharge.
"Block it or kill it" isn't much of a solution. First, using Power Block means you have to sacrifice your elite slot, and requires that you spec into Domination. In some situations this isn't possible, not to mention that Power Block carries a hefty recharge, and that mobs may use skills from different attribute lines (e.g. Lightning Orb and Lava Arrows on Afflicted Eles). "Killing it" goes without saying. If simply killing things was a viable replacement for interrupting, then there's not much point in this discussion.
The thing is, the simple act of interrupting reduces the amount of harm done to your party. Any additional utility to the interrupt, such as damage, or e-denial, or disabling certain skills, is just a bonus.
Eaimirth Etaivella
Still doesn't touch the fact that savage shot owns this skill to eternity and back =/
Avarre
Give savage shot a <1/4 fire time and a 0s flight time, the ability to go through walls and recharge in <7 seconds and you'll be right.
Also the fact that savage shot is a ranger skill. It shouldn't even be taken into account because you can't use it effectively on a mesmer. This makes two of your discussions based on 'this mesmer skill is bad because theres a ranger skill I think is better'.
Also the fact that savage shot is a ranger skill. It shouldn't even be taken into account because you can't use it effectively on a mesmer. This makes two of your discussions based on 'this mesmer skill is bad because theres a ranger skill I think is better'.
Eaimirth Etaivella
With a composite bow, fw and rtw it does fly with a 0 sec flight time; that or close enough to interrupt 3/4th sec spells which is good enough for any mesmer spell comparison as no one has reflexes good enough to interrupt 1/4th sec spells. Also savage shot had a recharge of 5 seconds the last time I checked, which is more than I can say for this spell. Just interesting considering that mesmers are the "interrupting masters" so I find it humorous that a "inferior" interrupting class has a far superier interrupt.
Dragannia
A Ranger interrupter is much more efficient than a Mesmer. They can interrupt more. But a Mesmer interrupter has the added benefit of being able to kill or severely hamper their target, as well as interrupting. The way I see it, Power Return is simply an interrupt to use while Spike is recharging.
Avarre
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella
With a composite bow, fw and rtw it does fly with a 0 sec flight time; that or close enough to interrupt 3/4th sec spells which is good enough for any mesmer spell comparison as no one has reflexes good enough to interrupt 1/4th sec spells. Also savage shot had a recharge of 5 seconds the last time I checked, which is more than I can say for this spell. Just interesting considering that mesmers are the "interrupting masters" so I find it humorous that a "inferior" interrupting class has a far superier interrupt.
Good job EE, you proved savage shot is pretty much as good as power return with not only 2 supporting skills, but also a ranger weapon. That even tops the 'SQ is better than MoR because you can bring echo and still get less bonus' argument.
We're talking about mesmers. Power return is a functional interrupt that only takes up 1 space, is cheap, with fast recharge. Your savage shot parallel is 3 slots for a ranger. Return is the kind of interrupt you can use constantly on a target, which is helpful in most situations, especially as you can bring one of the longer recharge interrupts as well.
We're talking about mesmers. Power return is a functional interrupt that only takes up 1 space, is cheap, with fast recharge. Your savage shot parallel is 3 slots for a ranger. Return is the kind of interrupt you can use constantly on a target, which is helpful in most situations, especially as you can bring one of the longer recharge interrupts as well.
Renegade ++RIP++
just make power return able to interrupt an action be this casting a spell or using a skill or simply attacking..., now that would be usefull and not to powerfull since they are gaining energy every tim they do get interrupted and rcv no dmg or any other negative condition except the possible rechargetime of their skill. Which would make it ideal as a last resort interrupt.
Keats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella
I know it has a fast recharge.
I know it is affected by MoR.
I know it costs 5 energy; just like the inspiration magic interrupts.
I know it is fast casting attribute based.
What I don't know is why it has to suck. Yea maybe if it "returned" the energy back to the mesmer then it would be useful. I still don't see a whole lot of use of this spell though;
"I interrupted your flare!"~mesmer
"Ohh scarry I will just cast it again and you are down 5 energy."~ele
"...damn"~mesmer
I know flare isn't a viable skill; but lets take a look of many of the current "best" skills to use. All of them have fast cast times and fast recharges; obsidian flame, woh, blinding flash, lightning orb...all of these have fast recharges so energy return won't do jack squat.
Say best case scenario; you interrupt a lightning orb on a fast cast nuker with duel attunements. They lose 15 energy due to the cost of the spell; but you lose 5 to your cost, then they gain 5 from your interrupt.
Net:
You down 5
They are down 10
Thats best case; however...we could use our other "fast recharge all purpose interrupt" savage shot...
Net:
You down 5
They are down 15 and 80 damage to the face
Worst case scenario; you interrupt and they don't care. Far too numerous to count really. Monks will simply recast due to fast rc, necros will call it a draw (net energy loss of both players 5, but they have soul reaping as their primary), eles ...well they simply won't care.
Yea its not affected by MoR; but I don't see this skill being used by that build anyway. Savage still interrupts non-conditionally and all skills; no matter what. This only interrupts spells; interrupts only if they are casting a spell; and punishes you for doing so.
Some say it has uses in pve as enamies have limitless energy. I still stand by my saying of "block it or kill it" simply saying either powerblock it to stop it from casting at all; or kill it so it is no longer an issue. Personally I think killing it is the better of the two; but ohh well. In this case we compare the skill to powerspike, cry of frustration...which both cast this spell into the abyss in terms of pve use. Savage shot remains more powerful than this skill; as it can even be used as a spike skill regardless of interrupting at all.
I simply do not see a use for this skill...if it gave you back the energy for countering then it would be viable. I know I would use it; would even throw it into a couple of my builds. That or make it "useful"; give it a unconditional interrupt, and return the energy to the interrupter and interruptee...Yet as it stands now it only punishes the mesmer that carries the spell. if power return interrupts the one woh that would determine life or death of the current offense target because it is available and the 5e are available, why should that be not an incredible skill?
if power return interrupts the 100+ damage spell that would determine whether a mate lives or dies because it is again available and the 5e are again available, why should that be not an incredible skill?
for sure, mesmer interrupt business is by far the most difficult one imo since it's you to decide when to interrupt what to interrupt and which interrupt to use.
Peace.
I know it is affected by MoR.
I know it costs 5 energy; just like the inspiration magic interrupts.
I know it is fast casting attribute based.
What I don't know is why it has to suck. Yea maybe if it "returned" the energy back to the mesmer then it would be useful. I still don't see a whole lot of use of this spell though;
"I interrupted your flare!"~mesmer
"Ohh scarry I will just cast it again and you are down 5 energy."~ele
"...damn"~mesmer
I know flare isn't a viable skill; but lets take a look of many of the current "best" skills to use. All of them have fast cast times and fast recharges; obsidian flame, woh, blinding flash, lightning orb...all of these have fast recharges so energy return won't do jack squat.
Say best case scenario; you interrupt a lightning orb on a fast cast nuker with duel attunements. They lose 15 energy due to the cost of the spell; but you lose 5 to your cost, then they gain 5 from your interrupt.
Net:
You down 5
They are down 10
Thats best case; however...we could use our other "fast recharge all purpose interrupt" savage shot...
Net:
You down 5
They are down 15 and 80 damage to the face
Worst case scenario; you interrupt and they don't care. Far too numerous to count really. Monks will simply recast due to fast rc, necros will call it a draw (net energy loss of both players 5, but they have soul reaping as their primary), eles ...well they simply won't care.
Yea its not affected by MoR; but I don't see this skill being used by that build anyway. Savage still interrupts non-conditionally and all skills; no matter what. This only interrupts spells; interrupts only if they are casting a spell; and punishes you for doing so.
Some say it has uses in pve as enamies have limitless energy. I still stand by my saying of "block it or kill it" simply saying either powerblock it to stop it from casting at all; or kill it so it is no longer an issue. Personally I think killing it is the better of the two; but ohh well. In this case we compare the skill to powerspike, cry of frustration...which both cast this spell into the abyss in terms of pve use. Savage shot remains more powerful than this skill; as it can even be used as a spike skill regardless of interrupting at all.
I simply do not see a use for this skill...if it gave you back the energy for countering then it would be viable. I know I would use it; would even throw it into a couple of my builds. That or make it "useful"; give it a unconditional interrupt, and return the energy to the interrupter and interruptee...Yet as it stands now it only punishes the mesmer that carries the spell. if power return interrupts the one woh that would determine life or death of the current offense target because it is available and the 5e are available, why should that be not an incredible skill?
if power return interrupts the 100+ damage spell that would determine whether a mate lives or dies because it is again available and the 5e are again available, why should that be not an incredible skill?
for sure, mesmer interrupt business is by far the most difficult one imo since it's you to decide when to interrupt what to interrupt and which interrupt to use.
Peace.
fatboyslimerr
Y'all arguing interesting points. I would still never use power return simply because there is such a thing as renewal power leaking 
. If they made power return be more like this:
Your target's current action is interrupted, if that action was a spell you both gain 5 energy, it was a skill you lose 5 energy and your target gains 5.
Making this almost as good as cry of frustation (except without the AoE) costing 10e for a skill interrupt. As far as spell interrupting, it has no negative affect on your target (they actually gain 5 energy) and is truly spamable by you. As it is now I just don't think its worth it. All my efforts using power leak etc would be wasted if I kept giving them back their energy, but it would be more useful if it sustained itself and interrupted skills too.
Echo SQ ftw
. If they made power return be more like this:Your target's current action is interrupted, if that action was a spell you both gain 5 energy, it was a skill you lose 5 energy and your target gains 5.
Making this almost as good as cry of frustation (except without the AoE) costing 10e for a skill interrupt. As far as spell interrupting, it has no negative affect on your target (they actually gain 5 energy) and is truly spamable by you. As it is now I just don't think its worth it. All my efforts using power leak etc would be wasted if I kept giving them back their energy, but it would be more useful if it sustained itself and interrupted skills too.
Echo SQ ftw
Hella Good
It seems to me that there is better ways to interrupt, I originally though of this skill as a way to give nrg to a target that is low on nrg, so that you can then Burn/Surge it (kind of along the lines of maximizing Burn/Surge damage), but the more I think about it, the more it doesn't make much sense. I guess, if you don't want to use Domination or Inspiration it is a viable alternative but my interrupt is Domi/Inspiration, so... that doesn't help much. I wouldn't go as far as to say the skill sucks- it's still a 5nrg, 7s recharge interrupt. But I personally won't be using it, that's all.
Themis
I think that Power Return is meant to be a viable answer to all these high spammable spells with low recharge :
Defensive:
Flesh of my flesh
Martyr
Life Sheath
Healing light
Warders
...
Offensive:
Minion masters’ spells
...
In other words, imo, it’s supposed to help shutting down some support characters and spells.
So, this (non-elite) spell can counter some of the oponents' strategies, or confort your own. I'm sure it can be very usefull in GvG/HA/etc but less usefull in PvE. Thus, it's more a shutdown spell than an interrupt one.
Defensive:
Flesh of my flesh
Martyr
Life Sheath
Healing light
Warders
...
Offensive:
Minion masters’ spells
...
In other words, imo, it’s supposed to help shutting down some support characters and spells.
So, this (non-elite) spell can counter some of the oponents' strategies, or confort your own. I'm sure it can be very usefull in GvG/HA/etc but less usefull in PvE. Thus, it's more a shutdown spell than an interrupt one.
fatboyslimerr
I actually think, since power leak is often too good, this could be a great interrupt to use while power leak is recharging, after having experimented with it. Say you power leak + e.burn thats -34 energy which will severely hamper a monk, but then say they try to use e-management skill like mantra of recall, but power leak is recharging and your saving cry of frustration, power return them twice or so (+10 energy) gives them about +20 energy over all, then hit them with power leak again, -26 energy
Its an idea but it would have too many skills requiring interrupts e.g. power leak, power drain then power return as well. Its an idea though but it needs some work. Anyone tried Power Leech ??, I'm thinking of buying this when I get enough faction.
Its an idea but it would have too many skills requiring interrupts e.g. power leak, power drain then power return as well. Its an idea though but it needs some work. Anyone tried Power Leech ??, I'm thinking of buying this when I get enough faction.
Terra Xin
I would use power return with e-burn/surge, but you would only do that to make sure that your e-skills do maximum damage.... Then again, I would only use this in emergencies... which is never...
Evilsod
Isn't Leech an elite? Therefore you couldn't buy it 
Are we talking about PvP or PvE here? In PvP giving a monk energy back is pretty useless, there is the outside chance his 1 spell that you stopped got 1 of his team killed, but the energy he just gained will probably let him cast 2 more spells. Unless of course you have all your interrupts ready (specifically Power Leak) its a good 1 to start with, you interrupt somet then drain the hell out of the next spell he goes to cast.
PvE this skill....rules imo. I've never had chance to use it since i don't have Factions, but who takes Power Leak in PvE? These things seem to have no limit to energy unless your using Sympathetic Visage. If i had a very cheap, very fast recharging skill that i can interrupt a Shadow Monk with over and over, then we win. Of course in that situation you could say the same thing about Dazed w/ Concussion Shot...
EE, just so you know, i've played a ranger for a hell of a long time. Interrupting WoH or other 3/4 cast spells is next to impossible unless you either predict it or are standing right next to them. To interrupt it you need to react to it in less than 1/6th of a second to give the arrows time to get there and still hit it. Even when standing next to them, reacting to a skill in about 0.2seconds is not something you can do regularly, i've managed it occasionally, generally if i want to shove a Concussion Shot into them, i'll wait until its cast WoH then interrupt the next spell so i don't waste energy.
If i take my mesmer there now therse a good chance that a Shadow Monk will never know what a cast spell feels like. And of course, this is 1 of those situations where Power Block = Godly since they only have 1 attribute line (not including Zealots Fire which isn't exactly any help to them).
And of course, FoW is sorta notorious for its weird terrain, walls, objects or weird glitches (like been able to stand near the wall in the Spider Cave and not get touched) are things that completely stop a ranger interrupting.
Are we talking about PvP or PvE here? In PvP giving a monk energy back is pretty useless, there is the outside chance his 1 spell that you stopped got 1 of his team killed, but the energy he just gained will probably let him cast 2 more spells. Unless of course you have all your interrupts ready (specifically Power Leak) its a good 1 to start with, you interrupt somet then drain the hell out of the next spell he goes to cast.
PvE this skill....rules imo. I've never had chance to use it since i don't have Factions, but who takes Power Leak in PvE? These things seem to have no limit to energy unless your using Sympathetic Visage. If i had a very cheap, very fast recharging skill that i can interrupt a Shadow Monk with over and over, then we win. Of course in that situation you could say the same thing about Dazed w/ Concussion Shot...
EE, just so you know, i've played a ranger for a hell of a long time. Interrupting WoH or other 3/4 cast spells is next to impossible unless you either predict it or are standing right next to them. To interrupt it you need to react to it in less than 1/6th of a second to give the arrows time to get there and still hit it. Even when standing next to them, reacting to a skill in about 0.2seconds is not something you can do regularly, i've managed it occasionally, generally if i want to shove a Concussion Shot into them, i'll wait until its cast WoH then interrupt the next spell so i don't waste energy.
If i take my mesmer there now therse a good chance that a Shadow Monk will never know what a cast spell feels like. And of course, this is 1 of those situations where Power Block = Godly since they only have 1 attribute line (not including Zealots Fire which isn't exactly any help to them).
And of course, FoW is sorta notorious for its weird terrain, walls, objects or weird glitches (like been able to stand near the wall in the Spider Cave and not get touched) are things that completely stop a ranger interrupting.
fatboyslimerr
I was referring to PvP character, I would buy power leech {E} for a PvP mesmer and see if its any good, if it is I'll replace renewal with it, then power return my have a space on my skill bar. I wouldn't use an interrupter in PvE at all let a lone one using power leak, p.leaks awesomeness is only truly felt in PvP.
To be honest I just don't there is space for power return on my skill bar because all my skills are perfect as they are, especially power leak
To be honest I just don't there is space for power return on my skill bar because all my skills are perfect as they are, especially power leak
remmeh
Migraine + Cover + Power Return = shut down offensive caster in PvP.
fatboyslimerr
Who needs migrane ??. Renewal + Power Leak + Power Leak + Power Drain = more shut down offensive/defensive/healing cast with no energy
I'm just thinking if power return could ever replace cry of frustration on my skill bar ???
I'm just thinking if power return could ever replace cry of frustration on my skill bar ???
xenoranger
First, dont' knock Power Return.
Think of it this way. You have a Minion Master Animating a Golem or an elementalist casting a 25 cost skill. If you have high enough fast casting, you're essentially cheating them outta the difference. At 12, it returns like 5 energy. So.. an MM animating a vampiric horror looses 20 energy on the deal (25 casting - 5 returned). Hey look, you just interrupted and their own casting costed them.
Most interrupts have huge recharge times. So, if Power Return didn't have some inverse effect, it could be easily spammed by mesmers. Then the Mesmer Class would be over powering. At least with Power Return, you can interrupt key skills.
Think about it, who cares if you're hit with flare. Flare is like a melee attack. It's quite weak (in the grand scheme of things). But should you get hit with Meteor Shower or a more powerful skill, it's goign do not only damage you, but also those around you. It's pointless to interrupt flare. You should use Power Return to interrupt more serious skills. Although my primary character is a necro, I still use power return to interrupt the more powerful skills used by Elemenalists. Sounds silly, but if Spinal Shivers/Shivers of Dread is recharging and I notice a devastating AOE skill is being used, Power Return comes in handy. Even when returning 10 energy, if I can screw them outta 15 (on a 25 casting skill) it's worth it. Also, consider that some of the most devestating AOE skills by elementalists have long recharge times.
Casting => Interrupt => Recharge
Don't whine to me about your 30-60 sec recharge. You should've managed your skil bar better.
Think of it this way. You have a Minion Master Animating a Golem or an elementalist casting a 25 cost skill. If you have high enough fast casting, you're essentially cheating them outta the difference. At 12, it returns like 5 energy. So.. an MM animating a vampiric horror looses 20 energy on the deal (25 casting - 5 returned). Hey look, you just interrupted and their own casting costed them.
Most interrupts have huge recharge times. So, if Power Return didn't have some inverse effect, it could be easily spammed by mesmers. Then the Mesmer Class would be over powering. At least with Power Return, you can interrupt key skills.
Think about it, who cares if you're hit with flare. Flare is like a melee attack. It's quite weak (in the grand scheme of things). But should you get hit with Meteor Shower or a more powerful skill, it's goign do not only damage you, but also those around you. It's pointless to interrupt flare. You should use Power Return to interrupt more serious skills. Although my primary character is a necro, I still use power return to interrupt the more powerful skills used by Elemenalists. Sounds silly, but if Spinal Shivers/Shivers of Dread is recharging and I notice a devastating AOE skill is being used, Power Return comes in handy. Even when returning 10 energy, if I can screw them outta 15 (on a 25 casting skill) it's worth it. Also, consider that some of the most devestating AOE skills by elementalists have long recharge times.
Casting => Interrupt => Recharge
Don't whine to me about your 30-60 sec recharge. You should've managed your skil bar better.
Eaimirth Etaivella
Fundamentally the skill is flawed. You will only use it when all your other interrupts are recharging; because it is the "crappyest" of your interrupts. However in order to take advantage of its short recharge you would have to use it first; which means all your interrupts that would "harm" the enemy will not see as much use.
For taking down shadow monks; three best ways imo.
1. Powerblock like you said =p
2. Wastrels Worry->Shatter Enchantment->Power spike->Wastrel's Worry->Cry of Frustration->Energy burn
3. Have someone else do it; like an interrupt ranger with savage shot.
I just think the third option is all too used; frankly its just the best one (with exception of maybe the first one =p lol)
If it was a counter to high spammable skills it would give the energy to you; as countering this high spammable skills will cost you net energy-thus you lose.
@Keats
Yep you could easily interrupt that monk saving an ally with any other interrupt we have; hell even kill him with powerspike which has a recharge of only 3 seconds longer than this spell with that 100 damage difference.
Difference between spike and return (assume 5 energy spell as thats what mostly everyone uses these days)
Return Spike
You down 5 energy You down 5 energy
They up 5 energy They stay neutral
Net=you down 5 Net=you down 5 energy They down 100 damage
Heh seems everyone really loved that SQ arguement; although I will stick with the jump skill of my choice OS/QZ but echo seems to be the new favorite haha. 5 seconds x .66=3.3 seconds for my savage shot under SQ. This still blows power return with MoR as 7 seconds x .5=3.5 seconds...Yep savage shot remains victorious! You brought it up not me Avarre ^_^;;
You do need two support skills to make savage shot infinitely better than power return; but the point remains that it is infinitely better, no reason to use power return at all.
Perhaps if it returned the energy to you and them...but nah thats not going to happen. Perhaps if it was only you. Also no.
Just an interrupt that punishes you for having it.
For taking down shadow monks; three best ways imo.
1. Powerblock like you said =p
2. Wastrels Worry->Shatter Enchantment->Power spike->Wastrel's Worry->Cry of Frustration->Energy burn
3. Have someone else do it; like an interrupt ranger with savage shot.
I just think the third option is all too used; frankly its just the best one (with exception of maybe the first one =p lol)
If it was a counter to high spammable skills it would give the energy to you; as countering this high spammable skills will cost you net energy-thus you lose.
@Keats
Yep you could easily interrupt that monk saving an ally with any other interrupt we have; hell even kill him with powerspike which has a recharge of only 3 seconds longer than this spell with that 100 damage difference.
Difference between spike and return (assume 5 energy spell as thats what mostly everyone uses these days)
Return Spike
You down 5 energy You down 5 energy
They up 5 energy They stay neutral
Net=you down 5 Net=you down 5 energy They down 100 damage
Heh seems everyone really loved that SQ arguement; although I will stick with the jump skill of my choice OS/QZ but echo seems to be the new favorite haha. 5 seconds x .66=3.3 seconds for my savage shot under SQ. This still blows power return with MoR as 7 seconds x .5=3.5 seconds...Yep savage shot remains victorious! You brought it up not me Avarre ^_^;;
You do need two support skills to make savage shot infinitely better than power return; but the point remains that it is infinitely better, no reason to use power return at all.
Perhaps if it returned the energy to you and them...but nah thats not going to happen. Perhaps if it was only you. Also no.
Just an interrupt that punishes you for having it.
Evilsod
You are REALLY missing the point.
1. Power Block is an elite, we know it totally obliterates a caster
2. Your suppose to interrupt them while the rest of the team help kill them, not try to make a skillset to kill them yourself, and who uses E-Burn... the damage is pretty bad in comparison to just casting Backfire on them and just interrupting Area (since it totally outdoes Backfires damage).
3. A ranger could say the same thing to the mesmer.
Those monks are suppose to be your teams first target you know, plus they sometimes don't even start casting till they have low health.
And yes, these high spammable skills like Flare or Consume Corpse? Flare... if its the last 1 standing why not. Consume Corpse, very nice to stop them teleporting randomly, specially if you need the corpse. In that situation a Distracting Shot is probably better, but it makes little difference.
Are you talking about PvP? You losing 5 and them losing 0 really isn't much different from you losing 10 them losing 5. Besides, Power Leak makes them lose 26.
I hope you don't do that in PvE. Only a completely idiot brings QZ with them to a normal PvE group. If you use that every single caster in the group WILL have you hung, drawn and quartered for depleting there energy. No-one appreciates a 30% extra cost on spells just so you can interrupt slightly more often. Not like this spirit is up for long anyway unles you've maxed out Wilderness Survival, so you do little damage on your interrupts anyway, that and people love to go Spirit hunting these days, be it PvP or PvE. But while you brought it up. If there happens to be a mesmer in that group. MoR + QZ = 1.75seconds recharge, game set and match.
If i'm not mistake, Power LEECH restores energy back to you, not them.
1. Power Block is an elite, we know it totally obliterates a caster
2. Your suppose to interrupt them while the rest of the team help kill them, not try to make a skillset to kill them yourself, and who uses E-Burn... the damage is pretty bad in comparison to just casting Backfire on them and just interrupting Area (since it totally outdoes Backfires damage).
3. A ranger could say the same thing to the mesmer.
Those monks are suppose to be your teams first target you know, plus they sometimes don't even start casting till they have low health.
And yes, these high spammable skills like Flare or Consume Corpse? Flare... if its the last 1 standing why not. Consume Corpse, very nice to stop them teleporting randomly, specially if you need the corpse. In that situation a Distracting Shot is probably better, but it makes little difference.
Are you talking about PvP? You losing 5 and them losing 0 really isn't much different from you losing 10 them losing 5. Besides, Power Leak makes them lose 26.
I hope you don't do that in PvE. Only a completely idiot brings QZ with them to a normal PvE group. If you use that every single caster in the group WILL have you hung, drawn and quartered for depleting there energy. No-one appreciates a 30% extra cost on spells just so you can interrupt slightly more often. Not like this spirit is up for long anyway unles you've maxed out Wilderness Survival, so you do little damage on your interrupts anyway, that and people love to go Spirit hunting these days, be it PvP or PvE. But while you brought it up. If there happens to be a mesmer in that group. MoR + QZ = 1.75seconds recharge, game set and match.
If i'm not mistake, Power LEECH restores energy back to you, not them.
Themis
Eaimirth, you shouldn't treat skills individually, look :
- you're in GvG, or HA (for instance).
- you have a condition-heavy build : the oponnents' answer will be Martyr.
- you take just one skill with you : Power Return. Just spot the Martyr bearer and your opponents' strategy is ruined. If you take PB it wil work only half of the time. Oh, of course you could take a dedicated R with 3 skills but... why bother ? PR does the work and it takes just 1 slot (not even an elite) out of your team's 64 slots.
There's no flawless strategy, there's only a strategy<counter strategy<counter-counter strategy and so on (like the example above). And I can find easily at least half a dozen of counter strategies where PR can be used. Not as the best skill on its own on a skill bar : simply as one of the possible best ingredient to a TEAM strategy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella
- you're in GvG, or HA (for instance).
- you have a condition-heavy build : the oponnents' answer will be Martyr.
- you take just one skill with you : Power Return. Just spot the Martyr bearer and your opponents' strategy is ruined. If you take PB it wil work only half of the time. Oh, of course you could take a dedicated R with 3 skills but... why bother ? PR does the work and it takes just 1 slot (not even an elite) out of your team's 64 slots.
There's no flawless strategy, there's only a strategy<counter strategy<counter-counter strategy and so on (like the example above). And I can find easily at least half a dozen of counter strategies where PR can be used. Not as the best skill on its own on a skill bar : simply as one of the possible best ingredient to a TEAM strategy.
Quote:
Fundamentally the skill is flawed. You will only use it when all your other interrupts are recharging;
I find NOTHING in your post (or your previous ones) that justifies why Power Return "is flawed" or why should you "only use it when all your other interrupts are recharging". You simply compare spell characteristics individually. Energy lost <-> energy damage. This is more a shutdown skill, than an interrupt one. It's irrelevant to measure it in terms of damage dealing. Think about BO : can you measure it like that ?
Eaimirth Etaivella
Leech yep
Power Return no
QZ is only needed for the jump; one cast only, then the infini loop begins. Any jump skill will work.
MoR+QZ will make it the fastest...but if you are going to spam the hell out of an interrupt I would use power spike lol.
I ment theoretically the skill is flawed; it is the last interrupt you will want to use, but due to its recharge it is the interrupt you are supposed to use the most.
Power Return no
QZ is only needed for the jump; one cast only, then the infini loop begins. Any jump skill will work.
MoR+QZ will make it the fastest...but if you are going to spam the hell out of an interrupt I would use power spike lol.
I ment theoretically the skill is flawed; it is the last interrupt you will want to use, but due to its recharge it is the interrupt you are supposed to use the most.
bushe
the point is not "to only use it when your other interupts are recharging" as seems to be the by and large claim here, the point is to only use one interupt because it will recharge quickly and is linked to fast casting so I can just tack it onto a build that has nothing to do with interupts. Then when you have the opportunity to interupt that crucial spell you have an interupt that is probably ready to use and only requires one skill slot and 0 attribute points to be effective.
Sab
Quote:
Originally Posted by bushe
the point is not "to only use it when your other interupts are recharging" as seems to be the by and large claim here, the point is to only use one interupt because it will recharge quickly and is linked to fast casting so I can just tack it onto a build that has nothing to do with interupts. Then when you have the opportunity to interupt that crucial spell you have an interupt that is probably ready to use and only requires one skill slot and 0 attribute points to be effective.
Exactly.
Yes, Power Return has the "worst" side effect out of all the interrupts - returning energy back to your opponent, as opposed to taking it away, or causing damage or disabling key skills. This brings me back to a previous point I made - that in some situations, interrupting a skill is all that matters, and any side effects caused by the interrupt is just a bonus. In those cases, Power Return is the best interrupt.
Yes, Power Return has the "worst" side effect out of all the interrupts - returning energy back to your opponent, as opposed to taking it away, or causing damage or disabling key skills. This brings me back to a previous point I made - that in some situations, interrupting a skill is all that matters, and any side effects caused by the interrupt is just a bonus. In those cases, Power Return is the best interrupt.
Evilsod
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella
Leech yep
Power Return no
QZ is only needed for the jump; one cast only, then the infini loop begins. Any jump skill will work.
MoR+QZ will make it the fastest...but if you are going to spam the hell out of an interrupt I would use power spike lol.
I ment theoretically the skill is flawed; it is the last interrupt you will want to use, but due to its recharge it is the interrupt you are supposed to use the most. Until you go below 50% health, then it rather abrputly stops. And even then you need to be running at least 13 or 14 Wilderness Survival, as an interrupter, who the hell uses that much? For a start you COULD just use Concussion Shot and leave the interruptions to any normal attack. Not only would it stop you wasting half a build but you get the same effect for probably alot less energy.
But even then been able to use MoR and QZ would mean you'd be using about 10 energy every second. So Power Spike costing double the energy but doing 100 damage that ideally your ele/necro/warriors should be making up too.
Let me give you this situation. Your running at a Shadow Monk to interrupt him till his eyes turn blue. What are you gonna do to that Shadow Beast thats casting SS? You have:
Power Spike - 10 Energy 100 damage, that probably wont matter since it spams Consume Corpse all the frigging time
Power Leak - 15 Energy, and a huge waste of it too
Cry of Fustration - 15 Energy, i think i'll save this for Healing Signet tbh
Power Draom - 5 Energy, you gain back a load, hardly useful to start with
Power Block - 15 Energy, totally blocks its 2 main skills for 16 seconds
Power Return - 5 Energy, interrupts the skill making it recharge it for 10seconds
My choices would be either of the last 2, why? Well if i Blocked it I can always Power Spike/Drain the healer instead of simply Power Blocking him. I think Return wins this sorta hands down, do i care what happens to the Shadow Beast for at least the next 10 seconds? Mark of Pain hardly causes your team major concern, and as most people are focusing on the Shadow Monk, the 107 damage the Beast just took won't matter to anyone, neither will it gaining a bit of energy since it has Soul Reaping anyway.
The same could be said for the monk when its stuck under a Meteor Shower, its 1 hit from death, do you Power Spike its last attempt to heal, or Power Return it? If it actually benefits from the energy it just gained i'll be amazed.
My point is Return is a situational skill, and in a hell of a lot of situations, its the skill to do the job. Most of them involve situation when interrupting the skill doesn't matter beyond the fact you just stopped it casting.
Like LuxA said too, i can tag it along with an Illusion build quite happily. Hell i could tag it along with a Monk build to sit it next to my Power Drain since i'll always be bringing the odd bit of Fast Casting anywhere i go.
Power Return no
QZ is only needed for the jump; one cast only, then the infini loop begins. Any jump skill will work.
MoR+QZ will make it the fastest...but if you are going to spam the hell out of an interrupt I would use power spike lol.
I ment theoretically the skill is flawed; it is the last interrupt you will want to use, but due to its recharge it is the interrupt you are supposed to use the most. Until you go below 50% health, then it rather abrputly stops. And even then you need to be running at least 13 or 14 Wilderness Survival, as an interrupter, who the hell uses that much? For a start you COULD just use Concussion Shot and leave the interruptions to any normal attack. Not only would it stop you wasting half a build but you get the same effect for probably alot less energy.
But even then been able to use MoR and QZ would mean you'd be using about 10 energy every second. So Power Spike costing double the energy but doing 100 damage that ideally your ele/necro/warriors should be making up too.
Let me give you this situation. Your running at a Shadow Monk to interrupt him till his eyes turn blue. What are you gonna do to that Shadow Beast thats casting SS? You have:
Power Spike - 10 Energy 100 damage, that probably wont matter since it spams Consume Corpse all the frigging time
Power Leak - 15 Energy, and a huge waste of it too
Cry of Fustration - 15 Energy, i think i'll save this for Healing Signet tbh
Power Draom - 5 Energy, you gain back a load, hardly useful to start with
Power Block - 15 Energy, totally blocks its 2 main skills for 16 seconds
Power Return - 5 Energy, interrupts the skill making it recharge it for 10seconds
My choices would be either of the last 2, why? Well if i Blocked it I can always Power Spike/Drain the healer instead of simply Power Blocking him. I think Return wins this sorta hands down, do i care what happens to the Shadow Beast for at least the next 10 seconds? Mark of Pain hardly causes your team major concern, and as most people are focusing on the Shadow Monk, the 107 damage the Beast just took won't matter to anyone, neither will it gaining a bit of energy since it has Soul Reaping anyway.
The same could be said for the monk when its stuck under a Meteor Shower, its 1 hit from death, do you Power Spike its last attempt to heal, or Power Return it? If it actually benefits from the energy it just gained i'll be amazed.
My point is Return is a situational skill, and in a hell of a lot of situations, its the skill to do the job. Most of them involve situation when interrupting the skill doesn't matter beyond the fact you just stopped it casting.
Like LuxA said too, i can tag it along with an Illusion build quite happily. Hell i could tag it along with a Monk build to sit it next to my Power Drain since i'll always be bringing the odd bit of Fast Casting anywhere i go.
Eaimirth Etaivella
What to do about the SS? Shatter hex it of course!
Even with its "fast recharge" power spike is only 3 seconds away; and I would use that to kill the nightmare. About the Shadow monk; of course I would spike it, I want it dead asap so it doesn't receive a heal area or WoH from one of his friends.
^_^ How does power return prevent the use of the spell for the next ten seconds? You must be thinking of a different interrupt.
Even with its "fast recharge" power spike is only 3 seconds away; and I would use that to kill the nightmare. About the Shadow monk; of course I would spike it, I want it dead asap so it doesn't receive a heal area or WoH from one of his friends.
^_^ How does power return prevent the use of the spell for the next ten seconds? You must be thinking of a different interrupt.
Zui
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarre
Give savage shot a <1/4 fire time and a 0s flight time, the ability to go through walls and recharge in <7 seconds and you'll be right
Savage shot does infact have a 1/4s fire time. For some reason the 'average' time to target seems to be factored into the skills cast time. Too bad time to target depends on distance and bow type... Gotta love poor skill descriptions.
Eaimirth Etaivella
So true that and the fact that the damage on savage shot is in addition to and not only like in the skill description. Right with ya Zui.
Starfury
Why is there a drawback to using power return? If you interrupted a spell, they'd have to spend at least 5 energy to cast it. The worst case is that they gain a few points of energy.
Power return is a pure interrupt and has advantage of low energy cost and recharge. Interrupts are always effective on high energy cost or long recharge skills.
It's become a permanent addition to my skill bar in PvE for its reliability on being available in interrupting key spells.
Power return is a pure interrupt and has advantage of low energy cost and recharge. Interrupts are always effective on high energy cost or long recharge skills.
It's become a permanent addition to my skill bar in PvE for its reliability on being available in interrupting key spells.
Eaimirth Etaivella
The draw back is the net loss; they stand at 0 while you fall down 5 energy. All they have to do is simply recast the spell.
Avarre
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zui
I don't care if savage meets some. If I did, I would list one. I said if it met all, it would be comparable. It does not. It is evadeable, blockable, and can be stopped by large walls.
Not to worry though, I expect if I ever see you, you'll be wielding a horn bow and using savage shot on your mesmer. That's the main condition everyone has neatly skipped around. It's not a mesmer skill, and it uses a ranger weapon, for which the damage Eaimirth mentions requires ranger stat points. It should not have ever been brought into the discussion.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella
The draw back is the net loss; they stand at 0 while you fall down 5 energy. All they have to do is simply recast the spell.
At which point all you have to do is simply interrupt it again.
Eaimirth Etaivella
While you plummet deeper and deeper into a larger net loss...
Avarre
I use Power Return on Martyr. I lose 5 energy.
The enemy loses a net of about 4. Crap, beat by 1. If I keep interrupting their martyr, they'll end up invulnerable. Except that you make up the energy you spent in 3.8 seconds or so. So you are, in effect, down by 3.8 seconds. The enemy is down by Martyr's recharge. And when it comes to knocking out a critical skill, that one can be pretty severe if you have a lot of conditions up. The net loss of those conditions being left on is HUGE. For them. You don't care if the Martyr regens energy. Even if they have max, you can still stop that martyr spell and use your other energy to shut down their other monks. That's one example. Eaimirth Etaivella
Err...no no no the difference is much larger than that Avarre
You see you lose 5 on the spell; they lose 5 on the spell... Now assuming you have some insane amount of fast casting...they will only gain 5 energy from power return. So the enamy is at a net loss of 0, or they are gaining energy if we compare it with martyr. Yet again with its recharge time of 10 seconds we could easily use power spike to accomplish the same thing.
Avarre
Bah energy cost used to be 10 on that...
Point still stands. We could indeed use spike, but if you're not interrupting the target, who cares? Use spike on the things that the group is killing. While the net effect is well and good, remember also that if you focus damage on 1 monk and kill it, and use return on another and give it more energy (which cannot surpass the max level anyway), the first one is still going to die. The net bonus from another doesn't spill over to the first. Rather than spike whoever is casting, I would use spikes on the targets and returns to slow down everything else, in tandem with other shutdown skills. The target has a form of shutdown on it already, in the case of people hitting it.
LightningHell
If they lowered the recharge a bit more (?), I would use it. At its present form, no.
Eaimirth Etaivella
How are we going to use return on a monk...interrupts are neigh impossible on these guys; sheer luck only; maybe on mantra or inspired, but nothing else is viable. If I was going to interrupt these I would want to use something that would heavily punish them before moving to other targets while slamming the clock on my desk to beep before their recharge is done. Of these skills power leak (assuming you have been watching foci) power spike, etc. would be better choices on the slow recharge energy management skills.
around
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella
How are we going to use return on a monk...interrupts are neigh impossible on these guys; sheer luck only; maybe on mantra or inspired, but nothing else is viable..
Migraine/Arcane Conundrum/Stolen Speed/Dazed.
Eaimirth Etaivella
Quote:
Originally Posted by spawnofebil
Migraine/Arcane Conundrum/Stolen Speed/Dazed.
CoP/CoP/CoP/CoP
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