{MERGED} New no-drawback runes for non warrior classes

I already posted this idea briefly in another thread but I think it should have a thread for itself also not to 'hijack' the threads of others.

What I'm thinking is that as the warrior has the abs runes with no penalty as they have to be in the front lines etc., other classes should have a no-penalty rune for other things. I've come up with ideas for the other professions but would like to see other people's ideas as well.

Rune of Exhaustion reduction (Elementalist):
Reduces energy loss due to exhaustion by 1/1.5/2

Rune of Evasion (Assassin)
You evade enemy attacks (chance 5%/10%/15%)

Rune of Concentration (Mesmer)
You cannot be interrupted (chance 5%/10%/15%)

Rune of Accuracy (Ranger)
Your bow attacks have (5%/10%/15%) of having + 5%/10%/15% armor penetration.

Rune of Life Control (Necro)
You sacrifice 2%/4%/6% less max hp when using health-sacrificing spells.

Rune of Ethereal Life (Ritualist)
Your spirits have +5/10/15% more HP

Rune of Divine Power (Monk)
Your healing range is increased by X/1.5X/2X feet (where X is a distance value yet to be seen)

These are still VERY theorical and I just wrote them how they came to my mind so don't jump at my throat. If you would like to suggest some improvements or something else you are most welcome to do so. I myself made all I could to try and not make any rune overpowered but if you think I did some colossal mistake please let us know because this helps preventing moronic threads in the future.

I am proposing that only ONE rune is added for each Non-warrior class, so don't come up with two runes of the same prof and want them both to be implemented. Choose.

I am quite against anything that changes the penalty of exhaustion. The current system works quite well, and is quite fair.

The monk and necro runes pale in comparison to the ranger and maybe assassin runes. (but I like the idea)

But I like the idea, why does warriors get the only non penalty runes?


/signed for the idea, like you say, we need to work out the specifics

I'll go with the old, if it aint broke dont fix it route. The classes are balanced as is, leave them be Runes like this i think would completely upset the balance of the game and probably the balance of quite a few skills.

/not signed

--Warriors already have a no drawback rune all to themselves, and why? to compliment their job.Why should only one class get an extra "special" rune all to themselves? I mean if you are going to give one class its own special rune, then why not do the same for everyone? I'm not asking for something that completely unbalances everything, but I can't imagine why something simple that would complement the classes core job, would cause a big issue.

Ele - Exaushtion reducing runes
War - Absorption Runes (already implimented)
Necro - Saccur Reducing (eg. if spell says saccrafice 25% a super rune might reduce it to 12-15%)
Assassin- Shadow step increasing runes, or Static evasion runes(reduce the chance that they get hit)
Monk - rune to give1-3 maintained enchantments free(no degen)

Some of these may thought to unbbalance things(e.g. saccur rune)

--These are all just ideas that have been gathered. I really do think that as earlier stated we need more diversity in no drawback runes that are class specific and "compliment classes' core job." Such as Absorbtion for Wars.

Gah sorry, I wanted my own thread but bleh, as long as they make some more

/signed

I'm not so sure about the runes you came up with, but I definately agree with the idea. I suppose I'm biased in my opinion here though, because frankly, I don't like warriors.

/signed
Its not fair only Warriors get a rune like this. although some are rather overpowered, im sure ANet can think of something

/Sign

Very nice idea, ill pass it along to friends, s'mon peeps lets get a petition going

if those runes get implemented a rebalace of many skill will be needed.

IMO not worth it.

It's only fair because Warriors are SO equipment dependant.

I generally like this idea and we have had ssome other discussions on it, here are the links (order goes Newest-Oldest threads.)

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3052356 Same topic as this one...

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3051505 Energy Runes?

I love the idea, and have stated it myself as well in the past.

I would like to mention though, these runes should be exclusive improvements which are not provided by any of the classes, or other classes attributes. Warrior absorbtion is not provided by any warrior attirbute nor any other classes attribute, likewise, Rangers "non-drawback" Exclusive rune should not cover improvements granted by any attribute.

The suggested Ranger runes are more powerful then Warriors Strength runes, which are part of their exclusive attribute, and have a penalty for its use, very unbalanced. And Ritualist can already use runes in Spawning power to increase the health of his spirits and the power of his skills, something more original should be added.

For Ritualist I would say a rune which absorbed damage on your spirits, simular to Warriors rune, but more powerful in the use of weak spirits, reducing the damage taken by spirits, in any fashion, by 2, 4 and 6 points, this would be a great rune.

For ranger I can't think of something, and since I'm sure you can, I won't concentrate too hard, but try not to make something that is clearly a rip of Warriors strength, and even stronger then Strength runes with no drawback.... perhaps a Pet Improving Rune.

Addressing Syi, there are plenty of classes who have it much worse then Warrior, Assassin easily does less damage per hit, and has less armor, yet he is a melee character, and those teleports are so sparce they don't make up for jack, shouldn't they have a better rune? All caster classes rely on their armor just as much for 2 points of energy regeneration, as well as extra energy from armor and weapons, how is that less equipment dependant?

Just because many other classes don't depend on their weapon for damage, doesn't mean they don't use weapons and off hands for energy and spell mods, as well as depend on their lesser armor for defense, and the energy restoration which balances their lack of armor for spell casting, every class deserves some class specific "non-penatly" runes, Warrior is rather blessed in the equipment department, because his equipment basicly does the job for him and his skills are only neccessary to improve his highest of continous damage and lowest of recieved damage.

Compared to Assassin, who has less continous damage, less armor, and overall less effeciency, they should get even better non-penalty runes, 5-15 percent evade rate might be neccessary to improve the class, as if these things are going to come any cheaper than Warrior Absorbtion runes at that.... On a Warrior with the highest armor rating in the game, 1-3 points of damage reduction can turn 7-8 damage attacks into 3-5 damage attacks, making continous damage purely in favor of warrior over any other class, say it isn't so.

Ranger runes I'd like to see:
Range: When you fire a bow, you fire 10/15/20 feet farther
Speed: When you fire a bow, you fire it 5/10/15% faster
Beastlord: Your pet's level cap is increased by 1/2/3
Trapper: Your traps recharge 5/10/15% faster
Prepper: Your preparations last 5/10/15% longer
Wily: Your stances last 10/15/20% longer

I don't quite understand you point here. Sure, warriors must have the according weapon in order to attack and use many warrior skills but I don't understand how this makes them more dependant on equipment. A caster can easily launch spells even with his bare hands but no one is going to do that as wands/staffs have benefits (mods) just like the sword, axe and hammer. Casters aren't allowed three mods as far as I know.

the thing is...is a warrior obiously has to get up close (no shit shurlock I know ) whilst other classes can attack from a fair distance, also most classes can disable warriors from a distance at will unlilke the warrior that can dissable skills when there used however they can either pick a sword skill which or an elite...take Blind for example warrior is screwed unless he/she has restore conditions, but if combo'd with the mesmer skill spirit shackles and for extra evilness soothing images warrior is no longer a threat.

there are many anti-warrior spells out there so I don't see why it needs it change just beacuse of warriors.

No-drawback runes are a terrible thing. They do nothing but add grind to the game.

/notsigned because we have too many of those runes already.

/signed

but only if it really adds something new and refreshing to the game and doesn't require a major skill rebalance after that.

Like BahamutKaiser says, i agree that they should be unique, and not just expand the (primary) attribute of a class.

/not signed .. would bring unbalance problems sooner or later

if runes should be added i d more for a rune that increases exp gain or gold coins drop

Even if a non-penalty rune is only for warrior because he is weapon dependant and melee, Assassin still falls under those same pretenses. Assassin, with weaker weapons, weaker armor, is basicly a paper warrior, if we are to say Warrior deserves non-penalty runes because of the drawbacks in melee combat and counters, then we certainly need to give Assassin an even better non-penalty rune.

And Ranger is also Weapon dependant to a degree, the primary function and weapon of a ranger is a bow, and although it is ranged, it is still subject to blindness and physical damage counters, as if there arn't even more common energy and casting counters then there are adrenaline counters. Even Warrior has energy, but of 8 classes, only one uses adrenaline, most people counter spells, attacks, skill use and energy before they consider using adrenaline counters, Adrenaline counters are not any more stiffling then energy counters.

The effectiveness of Absorbtion runes is rather significant, when you shave off 2 or 3 points of damage from a class who already takes the least damage from nearly any attack, expecially physical, most small attacks amount to nothing, physical attacks can nearly be overlooked. Assassin has less armor overall by a small portion, but his circumstancial armor is clearly a third as effective as Warriors extra 20 armor vs physical, the small reduction in condition durations can be helpful, but in no way overtack the effect of a condition, shaving off maybe 2 or 5 seconds from 1 or 2 conditions. And this overlooks the use of a shield with a sword or Axe, which is another 16 armor, or something close, giving Warrior a supreme advantage in armor, an Assassins 2 daggers rarely pull of double attacks on a chance basis if you invest points in dagger mastery, their actual damage per hit though is basicly the same as a sword. Assassins armor does have another 2 energy regeneration and 5 energy to it, so it isn't unbalanced, but for an Assassin to engage in melee combat is nearly as dangerous as a ranger or Elementist, they are truely paper warriors. Non-penalty runes aside, Assassins realy should have more effective survival and healing skills to compensate for their lack of defense, but overall, since they are melee combat, Assassin deserves non-penalty runes just as much as Warrior.

Even compared to Ranger, who has 5 less armor then Assassin, and 30 armor vs all elements and perhaps 15 more to a particular one, Ranger is way more survivable. With better healing skills, ranged attack advantage and safty, and reduction in a damage type that is likely to hit him at range, Ranger has much more survivability.

And since people have such a hard time accepting Beast Mastery, it wouldn't be so bad if there were some Pet Oriented Ranger runes, If they are worried about the output a ranger can deal, they can simply make them defensive or health runes for pets.

The use of non-penalty runes and how effective they should be on casters is much more speculative, but when it comes to Assassin, you talking about a class who needs something, deserves something, more than Warrior.

The ritualist rune needs tweeking... Some are pure channeling magic and would have no need for that. I'll post some ideas for better runes.

Rune of Accuracy (Ranger)
Your arrows fire 50%/100%/200% faster.

Rune of Energy (Elemantist)
You gain +3/+5/+8 Energy

Rune of Concentration (Ritualist)
You have a 5%/10%/15% chance of not being interrupted while casting spells.

Rune of Disorientation (Mesmer)
All of your spells have a 2%/3%/5% chance of causing dazed for 5 seconds.

/not signed

Its balanced, leave it.

Seem intersting, and would add more variations to character customization. Some value might need some play test to see how effective or uneffect it would be.

But I think more Runes, and weapon mods, would be good.

/not signed

I suggest making your own game then.

Bad idea imo, the current balance is just about right.

Suggest we make or own game then, eh?

Well I have two thoughts A) I dont know why you think that, please explain more
B) Is there anyway to like bump this thing to the top instead of just having it sit here and die? I like this idea...I want this to become a part of the game, and if you think it's balanced because warriors have a no drawback rune all to themselves, and the other melee'er (Assassin) doesnt even have its own rune...I dont know what to tell you, but I think at least Assassin should have it's own no drawback rune.

funny how this turned into "ZMOG NO! We poor warriors already ballanced!" argument.

/notsigned

Penalty free runes only work for warriors, Tanks need to take a beating and to do that they need health, it wouldn't make much sense to skim 3 points off of incoming damage if the price of 75 health.

and exhaustion is what brings balance to the elementalist class, period.

Exactly, -3 Damage is like buffing the shields capabilities a bit. -3 Damage is very negligible (spelling?) and it's basically a strength of the warrior class's very high armor. Warriors are already low on energy so using their secondaries is very hard unless you use stances like Bonneti's. Think of it this way, Caster's armor gives an inherent Energy bonus already, and this can be an inherent bonus technically because it has no penalty except taking up a rune slot. You don't see people complaining about how killing a warrior is too hard, so it's obviously not balanced.
The ONLY rune of this I might support is an Assassin's rune because of their incredibly low armor for being right in the midst of the battle.
Because it's true? If it's not broke, don't fix it...

Why doesnt it work for assassins? They take about as much a beating as wars do....And most of the time(Ive seen) they die.

I dont think that we should give them the 5/10/15 percent evasion runes , I think we should tone it down a bit 3/6/9 maybe.

Sorry, started to post before I saw yours Rogmar...btw you spelled negligible right...

That's why they have a mess of teleportation skills, they aren't supposed to be in the midst of battle long enough to take a beating.

The people you are talking about have no idea what they are doing if that is the case. Those are what we call "Asses"

The warrior still has skills to prevent them from taking a beating at all (Bonetti's, Glad's, etc., etc.,) and yet for some reason they still need a rune that prevents damage like most of their tatics skills?(not limited to tactics)

They don't need it, and neither are Bonneti's/Glad's useful in PvP as hardly anyone attacks the warrior. The damage is good for AoE spells and hexes or what not. Besides Mesmers have Mantras, Rangers have their stances, Assassins/Monks/Eles have their enchantments, Ritualists have spirits so it's really only the Necromancers who don't have many self-casted protections. Not to mention all of these classes are OUT of the battle, besides the assassins, hence the acknowledgement at the end of my last post.
Finding an ally in a safe area away from battle isn't exactly the quickest thing to do. Of course there's Aura of D which is pretty lame for an elite.

My thought on this subject has recently changed from the past views to something new... so here it is.

Remove the fact that you need to be a warrior to use absorption runes, and leave it at that.

Problem solved.

Aura of Displacement is used more often than Return or Recall.

:edit:
It is pretty lame for elite status, I think the class would get a great uplifting if it became a standard skill, but as you probably have noticed a lot of Factions elites don't really deserve the status. Also if AoD became a standard skill, the other return skills would be useless.

That doesn't solve anything, all it would mean is everyone would have a Sup Absorbtion on them at which point the advantage of said rune would become void.

Make Absorption rune's like Vigor runes, any class can use them


I don't see Sup Vigor being Worthless now. And the the thread is about warriors having 1 extra rune, making the Abs rune useable for every class just like the Vigor, insted of adding new runes that would screw up the balance making the Abs rune universal would only take minor tweaks here and there.

Off subject.
And Sup Abs. is allready worthless on the market at least.

You probably didn't get to see my edit before you posted, so take a peak at the post above you.

>.< Im a little confused rogmar. Are you with or against me on the Assassin rune?

But you said they dont really need the skills I mentioned and: Assassins get hit hard by everyone they're still in the "squishy," "light-weight," or whatever you want to call it, group. And get hurt as much as warriors by certain spells, if not more.(not including Shadow dmg, or Life stealing seeing as how they both bypass armor) Assassins arent that hard to kill with a necro, ele, or even monk(smiting).

Ok, and also....Absorbtion runes are meant for wars because they compliment that class's core job.... And what we're arguing about is whether or not they should add some new ones to compliment other classes' core jobs. The problem cant be solved as simply as giving everyone absorbtion runes(wtf?) it doesnt help the monk being ass-raped by a warrior hitting 30-50 on the monk (w/o skills) (if you didn't know 30-3=27 50-3=47 27-47 not a whole lot of difference)

There could be been a much better idea for a monk exclusive rune of this nature. Maybe one that has a chance for "divine intervention"

I couldnt really think of one myself, I havent heard one I really liked yet though.

I said earlier about having a monk enchantment rune but bleh, I like yours better.

I still want to see some sort of static evasion rune for assassin.(as mention earlier)

Most of Assassins teleports are crap, poor reuse time, elite status, crappy circimstantial benefits. Assassins lack of armor isn't replaced by a skill, we have 8 skill slots, using one of them for defense just to meet defensive neccessity isn't balance, expecially when being able to shrug off damage for the team is an asset, and warrior can use the same amount of skill slots to provide even more defense and survival to himself without fleaing combat.

Assassin can't teleport left and right to reduce damage, the recast times on these teleports are so long that you will be lucky to get out of one attack with most teleports and you can't use them regularly enough to continously return to battle and teleport out constantly. Using your elite to escape damage regularly isn't a very effective option either, compared to SoJ, Gladiators Defense or Defy Pain, even escape, Aura of Displacement is crap. An Assassin with his best teleports barely meets warrior with his natural defensive strengths, adding an elite teleport skill to the equation to meet Warriors survival when Warrior could very well live twice as long still with one of his elites is nonsense.

If I could use Deaths charge every 10 or 15 seconds, even without the healing, and maybe recall for 5 energy, then we would be talking about survival by teleport, as it is, being able to advance quickly every 45 seconds with conditional heal, being able to retreat at the cost of 15 energy and 1 maintenance, and being able to advance and retreat with an elite every 20 seconds at the cost of 10 energy and 1 maintenance is plain silly.

Heart of Shadow Vs Reversal of Fortune? You can only cast heart of shadown to save support yourself and it only heals when damage, not reverse damage, yet it has a 15 second cast time..... Random Teleports within your location arn't that valuable.

All teleports ,besides Aura of Displacement (which is an elite teleport), are one way, they may be more effective than running skills for crossing distance in a short period of time, but they can't be used interchangeably for advancing and retreating, and Assassin is a melee fighter with the least armor in the game, with those kind of odds Assassin should be able to teleport every 5 or 10 seconds to dodge out the difference of damage received compared to a warrior.

Warrior has heavier armor, Assassin has more energy on his armor to use more skills, need I explain that Assassin should have skills good enough to match warriors defense with those skills.....

Furthermore, this nonsense about Warriors having less energy to cover use skills from a secondary class is just that, nonsense. Last time I checked, most Warrior skills are adrenaline based, using thier own adrenaline and signet based attacks and heals, will using the energy they have for spells from a secondary allow them to divide the cost into 2 seperate sources, leaving plenty of energy to cast heals with W/Mo with their energy wile they use adrenaline to deal damage with their attack skills. Again, comparing to Assassin who is spending vast portions of energy just to attack, they have even less energy then Warrior to use other spells, and Warrior is at a disadvantage?

Assassin may be quick off the bench, but Warrior can actually play his rounds, Assassin will be back on the bench in no time with weak skills and low defense, if he isn't buried. I don't have a problem with a more complicated melee character, which is why I like Assassin over Warrior, but not being able to compete with warrior in all aspects puts Assassins at a clear and outstanding second, at this rate I will likely end up with a bow in my Assassins hand so I can deal out attacks and skills without wasting large amounts of energy to dodge in and out of battle, or not being able to do it cheaply more then once per encursion.

Teleporting Skills vs Natural Defense, Defense wins. Teleporting Skills vs Ranged Attack, Ranged wins. If Assassins needs skills to compete with the natural advantages other attackers have, they should be damn good, not expensive and rarely useable...... and elite (or at least the elite needs to be way better).

Right now, the Only teleport skill I appreciate is Return. At least I manage to cripple the enemy wile escaping, which is worth a 20 second recast, comparing advancing every 45 seconds with conditional heal to Return...... flat out retarded.

Ok so we have the only good skill being Return....now...after that exceedingly long/emotionally movign speeach by Bahamut, I think we need at least a new no drawback Assassin rune something of an evasion rune perhaps?

I want a *cough*STATIC EVASION*cough* rune or some feedback and ideas on another type of rune that assassin could need/have a use.