Well lets see...warriors yep, they die. Elementalists, double yep. Necromancers, yep. Ritualists, usally. Monks nope. Mesmers, nope if carrying temporary shutdown, slows, or energy denial.
well i dunno why everyone says warriors are OMFGOMGOMG doomed.. i saw even today how a fire elementalist dropped 3 touchers around him pretty much on his own (i was boon protting, only healed him once)
and the comment about no class being able to take down a monk doesnt make much sense to me.. assassins or warriors with a knockdown make short work of boon prots.. the question is time
Avarre
Bubblegum Patrol
Join Date: Dec 2005
Singapore Armed Forces
25 Jun 2006 at 14:56 - 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by fb2000
and the comment about no class being able to take down a monk doesnt make much sense to me.. assassins or warriors with a knockdown make short work of boon prots.. the question is time
Agreed, a properly timed 4-skill assassin chain or evisc spike / hammer spike can kill a boonprot practically instantly.
Monk kiting -> Bull's strike, crushing blow, irresistable blow, backbreaker, hit = bye monk Or whatever chain of skills you choose.
Eaimirth Etaivella
Jungle Guide
Join Date: Aug 2005
Seekers of the Apocalypse
E/
25 Jun 2006 at 23:36 - 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarre
Touch rangers without that much basic knowledge lack the tactical thought to avoid spamming into diversion.
No, not from my experience. A person can easily not know about focus swapping and know all about diversion.
Quote:
You cannot assume your enemy is stupid, ever.
Exactly so you cannot make the assumption above, I'm stating a fact, I have played energy denial in randoms a number of times against these touch rangers and not once have I had a problem with focus swapping.
Quote:
Possibly because less than 1/100 of touch rangers actually have any more skill than RA paladins. Even without -energy gear, the ranger can remove his staff/focus once they see what is happening.
Can, yes. You can take a horse to water but you cannot make him drink.
Quote:
If they can't even do that, they will die, no matter what tactic you take against them (that is effective).
Anyone will die to an effective tactic, of course degrees of effectiveness matter more than anything. Simply put the most effective strategies against touch rangers is energy denial and slow hexes, I admit that slow hexes are a great way of controlling them but their unreliablility moves me away from them.
Quote:
Hence my citing of imagined burden with degen-hex cover.
A boonprot can remove two hexes simultaneously with veil and inspired, thus you will need two cover hexes and the hope that the enemy team lacks additional hex removal.
Quote:
Any argument of balance or counters using RA as an example is horribly flawed, and you should know that. You are saying touch rangers are capable of defeating most other classes because the other classes in RA are clueless? The reason many people play touch rangers is the extremely low requirement of skill, in comparison. In more organized battles, touch rangers are nothing more than a gimmick.
Which we can say about IW, Single person Elementalist spikers, and half a dozen other builds. The touch ranger is not effective in GvG, HA, but in RA and TA (refuse to comment in arenas I have not played in). Gimics or not, they do their job well, and as long as the job is done the fact that it is a gimmic does not matter.
Quote:
So why are you basing anything off of RA? It is not an accurate representation of skills and balance.
I have not seen many touch rangers in TA, at least 1/5th as many. One could draw the conclusion that they are not as strong in organized play. Looks like a very accurate representation of skills and balance to me.
Little organization RA=alot of touch rangers
Mild organization TA=several touch rangers
Extreme organization GvG=no touch rangers tmk
Quote:
Nice group assumptions. I've played warrior in TA vs 4 touchers and won flawlessly, on burning map. It's just a matter of realizing you can't stand still, and you have to kite and build adren, then quickly smash down 1 ranger at a time, while the rest of the group pressures.
A warrior winning against a touch ranger is a poor play on their part, with dodge, a duplicate of dodge, escape, and throw dirt you should not have been able to land a hit one them.
Quote:
That's just one example, and saying that those classes are wear against touch rangers is a very poor indication of your own capabilities.
Feh; insults are nothing when the person in question assumes more than he knows
Quote:
I have lost once to 4 touchers. This was the first time we fought them and we did not have a co-ordinated strategy. The flawless win mentioned was the next time we met that team in TA, after we had set on what we would do in that situation.
Great job
Quote:
It's a pity that GW isn't a 1v1-based game to test your assumptions though.
We can take them into scrimmages to find out any time; I believe my guild makes use of this feature more than many other guilds in order to test build vs build.
Quote:
Going out on a limb here and saying because they aren't. Dying to touch rangers involves one of the following situations - failure to kite, failure to co-ordinate team, non-toucher enemies causing pressure/kd, etc. The first two are your own failures, and the third is not the consequence of the toucher so much as the additional factor.
I wouldn't go as far as saying "my own failures" sure my skill in diplomancy need some work, but the last time anyone was able to convince a wammo that he/she knew best the server crashed. Failure to kite as mentioned before is more common due to hex removal, it is only the failure of the slow hexer, if you have one, that is. The third point I agree with you with.
Quote:
-PvE is not organized PvP
It was to support that I, indeed, use hexes and I know how to handle them to great effect.
Quote:
-You're using RA as a PvP example.
And RA is pvp.
Quote:
To summarize, you keep your experiences in RA (where you can't make a proper analysis or comparison), TA (which has been rebuked to death), and ignore the varying other places touchers are used, most of which they are crushed and violated in, by snares, degen, mms, even ele nukers. In large open battlefields they're mobilefaction, unless the player on the other side is very well prepared. As you said, this is less than 1/100.
Of course I keep my experiences in RA and TA! I have yet to see a touch ranger in GvG and I assume they have the same amount of popularity in HA. It would make sence that they would lose in organized pvp and that is my main point actually. Snares are less viable in un-organized pvp in that teammates stand next to touch rangers without running at all, allowing them to take damage and the ranger to regenerate health. I have yet to see how you can call RA a place where "you can't make a proper analysis or comparison"; it is a arena like the others, and strategy regarding the arena has a flavor of a different color in context to the other arenas.
Quote:
Maybe not 'sucks' but you have said it was 'stupid'
When used to defend against a touch ranger yes, it will do nothing but buy you 6 seconds of time, less than that if the ranger chooses to ignore it and fodder the skill in order to hit you with touches.
Quote:
You continue to be a source of amusement during farming runs as always, Eaimirth.
Glad you enjoy it.
Dragannia
Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Feb 2006
Venatio Illuminata [VEIL]
Me/N
26 Jun 2006 at 04:34 - 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella
Lets be serious shall we? You have a touch necro in your face, and you cast diversion. He is either A. Going to ignore it and kill you by using a stance as a fodder skill, B. Wait it out and make you wonder what makes diversion so much different than a blackout wanna be, or prove what an idiot he is by choosing option C. using a key skill through diversion.
Diversion has a 3 second cast time on it, it shows the world you are casting it, I highly doubt any decent pvp player would fall for such a stupid defence. Get real. Diversion is more of a "put pressure on target" skill, simply a threat to stop a skill from comming. You give them the choice to let it come, and in the end they make the choice whether it does so or not. Unless you have a method of healing, diversion will not save you.
Do you seriously believe what you are saying? Firstly, your argument is flawed, as you're taking the worst case scenario, and not the one which comes most often. A touch ranger in a TA team is going to go for the enemy Monk. In the slight off chance he DOES go for you, the point is to catch their skills. You might as well say that Diversion does not work against boonprots, which it blatantly does, as you do catch Reversal, and Guardian, and etc. Not to mention that the two touch skills have a 3/4 second cast time, which a) makes it hard to stop, and b) the nature of the spammability of them makes it extremely predicatible and easy to catch.
Second, he's in your face. So...what? It means he isn't in your Monk's face, and you've sacrificed a Mesmer, who can kite better than the Monk, stopping only once every few seconds to cast Diversion, or Blackout, the enemy Monk. Congratulations, you've cut down on one of the enemy team's damagers, while you're still at half or more capacity.
If they are on your Monk, it makes it even easier. Seriously. They will not stop Vamp Touching and Vamp Biting, because it's all they can do. Try it some time. The problem with you is that I suspect you think that Diversion is bad because everyone uses it, even though in theory it works well, and in practice better.
And unless you're stupid, you're going to have around 10 points in FC, reducing Diversion to about a 1.5 second cast time.
And for your information, I run Diversion and Blackout, which complement each other extremely well. For example, counting the second until Ward Against Melee runs out, is an excellent use for Diversion, which Blackout simply cannot do (because once your BO runs out they can simply cast it again).
Eaimirth Etaivella
Jungle Guide
Join Date: Aug 2005
Seekers of the Apocalypse
E/
26 Jun 2006 at 05:12 - 45
'course you have to actually "catch" them using the skill; in this case being able to predict them reaching the target within a few fractions of a second, then hoping they do not have the reflexes needed to cancel a 3/4second skill. They should be tipped off on to watch for diversion as it is a mesmer skill, and you are a mesmer-similar to that they are R/N you are tipped off that they are a touch ranger. It is entirely reasonable to know that diversion is comming and to avoid it.
Once again; I have never said diversion is bad, I said using diversion as a defence against a touch ranger is stupid, and it is. It is avoided, or foddered.
Fine; 10 points in fast casting netting you a 1.95 second cast time...no where near 1.5. Heck 16 in fast casting nets you 1.51 which is "close" but no cigar.
Sab
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Dec 2005
26 Jun 2006 at 05:42 - 46
In practice you'll be surprised how easy it is to catch a touch skill with Diversion. If you see a Touch Ranger alternating Vampiric Touch & Bite, there's an extremely good chance you'll catch one of them. You don't even have to time your Diversion. They simply do not self-cancel, nor do they use another skill as Diversion-fodder. This is speaking from experience, not from theory.
And Touch Rangers won't be tipped off to watch out for Diversion as:
- Not all Mesmers use Diversion (duh...out of all Mesmers you should know that, Eaimirth)
- They won't be watching you while they're spamming Touch & Bite on the Monk
Sha Noran
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Nov 2005
http://tinyurl.com/2jlusq
Idiot Savants [iQ]
R/
26 Jun 2006 at 10:49 - 47
Condoning Blackout and then say Crippling Anguish sucks versus touchers is oxymoronic. Both require that you apply the skill and then kite away.
As for Diversion... Diversioning one of a Toucher's touch skills owns them. Its particualrly good against any build where skills are spammed heavily... the Toucher most likely isn't even going to be doing anything except mashing buttons, and therefore is most likely easily caught by a Diversion.
I'd also like to point out that you shouldn't really be specing your whole build to beat a TR (or any single build)... Crippling Anguish+PvP=lol. Diversion is a multipurpose skill that compliments any Dom build well, and can be used effectively versus a Toucher.
Dragannia
Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Feb 2006
Venatio Illuminata [VEIL]
Me/N
26 Jun 2006 at 12:41 - 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sha Noran
'd also like to point out that you shouldn't really be specing your whole build to beat a TR (or any single build)... Crippling Anguish+PvP=lol.
Disagreed. Slowdown effects are very powerful in PvP, especially Arenas (which is where you'll find TRs). The reason being is that they help your warriors immensely.
Sha Noran
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Nov 2005
http://tinyurl.com/2jlusq
Idiot Savants [iQ]
R/
26 Jun 2006 at 13:21 - 49
I can't disagree they're powerful, but using your Elite slot for it seems a bit rash.
holden
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Nov 2005
[NICE]
Mo/
26 Jun 2006 at 14:14 - 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sha Noran
Condoning Blackout and then say Crippling Anguish sucks versus touchers is oxymoronic. Both require that you apply the skill and then kite away.
As for Diversion... Diversioning one of a Toucher's touch skills owns them. Its particualrly good against any build where skills are spammed heavily... the Toucher most likely isn't even going to be doing anything except mashing buttons, and therefore is most likely easily caught by a Diversion.
I'd also like to point out that you shouldn't really be specing your whole build to beat a TR (or any single build)... Crippling Anguish+PvP=lol. Diversion is a multipurpose skill that compliments any Dom build well, and can be used effectively versus a Toucher.
this is the truth
Taurus
Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Oct 2005
Mexico
Go for the eyes [jizz]
W/Mo
26 Jun 2006 at 14:51 - 51
Stupid thread with stupid people in it ( cept me ).
IMO close it
holden
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Nov 2005
[NICE]
Mo/
26 Jun 2006 at 15:18 - 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taurus
Stupid thread with stupid people in it ( cept me ).
IMO close it
comeon. i expect a little more from a wammo.
Robin_Anadri
Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Atlanta, GA
Girl Power [GP]
Me/Mo
27 Jun 2006 at 18:24 - 53
I found Crippling Anguish to be very effective in my AB romps last night. In fact, in combination with my alliance mate running cripshot + apply poison, we got no less than 3 touch rangers to ragequit.
Couldn't take being killed over and over and having us dance the jig and hoochie dance on their corpses.
Crippling Anguish {e}
Conjure Phantasm
Accumulated Pain
Images of Remorse
Clumsiness
Mantra of Persistence
Energy Tap
Ether Feast
89% extra illusion hex duration from mantra, 50% slow, 12 degen, 97 dmg interrupting an attack, and a deep wound. GG *any* char.
I think tonight I'm going to play with going Me/E and bringing Ice Prison.
seven
Academy Page
Join Date: Dec 2005
27 Jun 2006 at 23:53 - 54
just from my own personal experiences in pvp,
i have yet to encounter a touch ranger that can't be kept in line using a recovery-diversion spam.
i can't fanthom why some people think diversion is a "stupid" defense against touchers when
personally, i have been in several situations where several touchers try to defeat me ... and few exchanges later they switch targets with a few and scattered skills left.
it seems they're not so keen on sacrificing other skills as fodder either. once they realize diversion can easily be recast again after 5 seconds, waiting it out or skill sacrificing doesn't even matter. with high fc and dom complimenting both recovery and diversion, a little kite run - quick cast - kite run cycle most of the times can set it up. whether they chose to wait it out or sacrifice a whole skillbar (both in vain), is an advantage for your team.
makosi
Grotto Attendant
Join Date: Mar 2006
"Pre-nerf" is incorrect. It's pre-buff.
Requirement Begins With R [notQ]
Me/
28 Jun 2006 at 00:15 - 55
This thread shouldn't even exist, in fact, its a tradgedy that it does. Anet are scared to nerf the toucher exploit because of the grief they get from the GW community. If anet don't fix it, then i want one of their staff to personally come to my house and scratch off the "it will always be your skill that earns your victory or defeat" off of my 3 GW boxes.
Back to business...
Diversion and illusion snares are the best counter in my experience. Yet again there's no point in going to arenas as a mesmer because you get pounded immediately.
Robin_Anadri
Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Atlanta, GA
Girl Power [GP]
Me/Mo
28 Jun 2006 at 00:41 - 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by makosi
This thread shouldn't even exist, in fact, its a tradgedy that it does. Anet are scared to nerf the toucher exploit because of the grief they get from the GW community. If anet don't fix it, then i want one of their staff to personally come to my house and scratch off the "it will always be your skill that earns your victory or defeat" off of my 3 GW boxes.
Well, I'll respond, as the bringer of this "tragic" thread. I fail to see your logic. Beyond arguing about the build being an "exploit" (it's not), there is nothing to refute the truth that it is skill that earns victory or defeat. This thread is about skill earning victory. A skilled mesmer eats touch rangers for lunch. Seems like the statement on the box holds true. A skilled touch ranger will eat the unprepared/unskilled for lunch. Box blurb still true. A stupid/unskilled mesmer will die quickly to just about anybody, as will a stupid/unskilled ranger.
Quote:
Back to business...
Diversion and illusion snares are the best counter in my experience. Yet again there's no point in going to arenas as a mesmer because you get pounded immediately.
Mesmers are attacked first precisely because they're a formidable threat. But a skilled mesmer will prevail anyway, as many posters to this forum will confirm from their own experience. Perhaps you should modify your statement to "There's no point for ME to go to arenas as a mesmer, because I lack the skill to survive."
Eaimirth Etaivella
Jungle Guide
Join Date: Aug 2005
Seekers of the Apocalypse
E/
28 Jun 2006 at 01:53 - 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_Anadri
"There's no point for ME to go to arenas as a mesmer, because I lack the skill to survive."
Hold it right there.
He does have a point; of the three highest targets in the random arenas, mesmers have the least amount of defenses.
Monks are difficult to kill, rits are hard to kill, mesmers...well they have a limited range of healing skills (still two isn't it?) and only have access to a "viable" defensive stance if they have quite a few points sinked into illusion magic.
Still stands true today
Targeted first
1. monks or mesmers
2. rits
3. elementalists
4. necromancers
5. rangers
6. assassins
7. warriors
The above are generalitys but should prove the point nonetheless. He words do have some wisdom behind them.
Sab
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Dec 2005
28 Jun 2006 at 02:54 - 58
Kite, and take Distortion if you're worried about getting pommeled.
Or, if we're still on the topic of Touch Rangers, then take Diversion or Illusion snares.
Ari Shiningstar
Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Jun 2006
JHEA
Mo/Me
28 Jun 2006 at 07:17 - 59
Empathy only works if they melee, smart ones don't melee.
Avarre
Bubblegum Patrol
Join Date: Dec 2005
Singapore Armed Forces
28 Jun 2006 at 14:35 - 60
In terms of RA, there is definitely a point there. I don't play RA anymore (I unlocked everything in PvE ages ago) but when I did I usually played something that can fit any situation and less dependence... monk or war, typically.
Mesmer for TA/HA/GvG!
holden
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Nov 2005
[NICE]
Mo/
28 Jun 2006 at 15:23 - 61
if i go to RA to get some faction i usually take my mesmer.
there are sooo many warriors i can't help myself. most are new and ignorant of conditions and hexes. they just keeep ooonnnnn swingin
and it's really the only place i can use pp/shatter
makosi
Grotto Attendant
Join Date: Mar 2006
"Pre-nerf" is incorrect. It's pre-buff.
Requirement Begins With R [notQ]
Me/
28 Jun 2006 at 17:58 - 62
The trouble with taking your mes to the RA is that its hard to keep yourself safe because you are usually the primary target if there isn't a monk on your team. I like distortion and hex breaker for protection but they're both stances and its hard to run from the wammo and prevent the Life Transfer from hexing you, whilst kiting and attacking enemies. Mesmers are highly destructive but they need the support of allies which is rare in arenas.
I like the way people make it so simple to use diversion on the touch rangers. Good luck spamming diversion on the other 3 touchers aswell because they'll eat you alive while you are doing so, and yes, you can kite from them but you can't kite and cast at the same time. Keep in mind that the base casting time of Diversion is three seconds so you have to invest a lot in Fast Casting.
As for the illusion snares, it isn't reasonable to snare more than one toucher/warrior because you don't have enough skill slots or energy to do so.
Quote:
Mesmers are attacked first precisely because they're a formidable threat.
Nothing to do with their 60AL armour or rubbish self-healing?
Oh, and this thread isn't 'tragic', my wording caused confusion, sorry.
The fact that thread like this must be made is the tragedy. I'm glad that this discussion was started because anet don't seem to be doing much so someone may aswell spread their wisdom.
Themis
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Oct 2005
LcB
Mo/Me
28 Jun 2006 at 18:11 - 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_Anadri
Well, I'll respond, as the bringer of this "tragic" thread. I fail to see your logic. Beyond arguing about the build being an "exploit" (it's not), there is nothing to refute the truth that it is skill that earns victory or defeat.
I disagree. Being able to fill a skill bar with twice the same skill, IS an exploit. I mean, what next ? Next chapter we could be able to take 3 times SympatheticVisage ? It's ridiculous. ANet should fix this.
makosi
Grotto Attendant
Join Date: Mar 2006
"Pre-nerf" is incorrect. It's pre-buff.
Requirement Begins With R [notQ]
Me/
28 Jun 2006 at 18:17 - 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Themis
I disagree. Being able to fill a skill bar with twice the same skill, IS an exploit. I mean, what next ? Next chapter we could be able to take 3 times SympatheticVisage ? It's ridiculous. ANet should fix this.
Yes, free Echo isn't fair for some builds.
Loki Seiguro
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Jun 2006
IGN: Scarlet Test Ace
We play Isketch in [HoH]
E/
28 Jun 2006 at 18:25 - 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yanman.be
A GOOD TR will used wasd or zqsd to get to his targets...I always bring a staff
- i use the new blood staff milturun or something like that..
Themis
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Oct 2005
LcB
Mo/Me
28 Jun 2006 at 18:29 - 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by makosi
Yes, free Echo isn't fair for some builds.
Echo has energy cost, casting and recharge times. Nothing to do with with having twice the same skill
Robin_Anadri
Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Atlanta, GA
Girl Power [GP]
Me/Mo
28 Jun 2006 at 18:51 - 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Themis
I disagree. Being able to fill a skill bar with twice the same skill, IS an exploit. I mean, what next ? Next chapter we could be able to take 3 times SympatheticVisage ? It's ridiculous. ANet should fix this.
Oh, please. Why does every thread that discusses tactics vs touch rangers devolve into whining about doubled skills?
Do you honestly think Anet forgot about Vampiric Touch when they created Vampiric Bite for factions? Or any of the other doubled skills? If Anet did not want people with both chapters to have the ability to take both skills they would have made the skills Core instead of creating a Factions variation. The doubling of skills is deliberate, not an exploit. It is an introduction of a new wrinkle to the game mechanics, in which players may choose to sacrifice one of their precious eight skill slots in order to duplicate a particular effect before the recharge of the first skill. This is a fair trade, and is the same sort of trade that echo/archane echo mesmers and glyph elementalists make, only less flexible as non mesmers and non elementalists can't chose which skill to quickly repeat.
The touch ranger is a clever application of this new game mechanic, but it is not an exploit. The game is functioning as designed. As has been noted on this thread already, touchers are a glass cannon and are easily defeated by skillful (there's that word again!) play.
Now back to the actual topic of the thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by makosi
As for the illusion snares, it isn't reasonable to snare more than one toucher/warrior because you don't have enough skill slots or energy to do so.
Sorry, can't back you on that one.
Quote:
Shared Burden {Elite} - Hex Spell 15 en, 2 cast, 25 rech
For 3-14 seconds, target foe and all nearby foes move 50% slower.
And taking advantage of doubled skills:
Quote:
Ethereal Burden - Hex Spell 15 en, 3 cast, 45 rech
For 10 seconds, target foe moves 50% slower than normal. When Ethereal Burden ends, you gain 10-20 Energy.
Kitah's Burden -Hex Spell 15 en, 3 cast, 45 rech
For 10 seconds, target foe moves 50% slower than normal. When Kitah's Burden ends you gain 10-20 Energy.
At 16 illusion, Etheral and Kitah's return 23 energy, which make them decent energy management skills. But unlike Mantra of Recall, they're not elite and provide useful ill effects on your foes. Used in conjunction with Mantra of Persistance at decent Inspiration levels, you can snare them for 15-19 seconds. Plenty of time to kite away and cast your degen skill. And you only need one, Illusion of Pain, because at 16 illusion they will be under full -10 degen and with Mantra of Persistence that lasts for 15-19 seconds. They should be dead before the heal ever kicks in. Especially since you're going to take advantage of two hexes on them to cast Accumulated Pain and give them a Deep Wound.
Evilsod
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2006
England
Lievs Death Squad [LDS]
28 Jun 2006 at 21:40 - 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_Anadri
Oh, please. Why does every thread that discusses tactics vs touch rangers devolve into whining about doubled skills?
I can see why they added it, Vampiric Touch doesn't make sense with Wallows, unlike Vamp Bite. I still don't like it though, but i'll live with it. Owning them with Cripshot is far too much fun.
Honestly, if people in RA/TA are too stupid to kite from the Touch Ranger, i don't see a single reason why they shouldn't win. Eventually people might cotton on and run off, until then the Touchies deserve every spammed Vamp skill they can do and every bit of faction they earn. If this doesn't teach people how to kite when its needed, i seriously couldn't give a flying f*ck if they're winning all the time. If they start to win constantly when people learn the basics of PvP kiting, then we have a problem.
Eaimirth Etaivella
Jungle Guide
Join Date: Aug 2005
Seekers of the Apocalypse
E/
28 Jun 2006 at 22:14 - 69
Havn't bothered to do the math if they "should win" but for some reason I have my IW win against touch rangers...of the two RA builds (being that they should never leave ra...) I always thought the touch would/should win...
any comments on this?
LouAl
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Dec 2005
28 Jun 2006 at 22:35 - 70
This thread is funny...
My personal thoughts are that there are many great ideas in here and a lot of flames. I also don't really care about touch rangers because I think they are fairly weak.
btw Eaimirth, not to flame you at all, but a point is not "mute" becuase you come up with a good reason to disqualify it from consideration. I think that you mean to render a point "moot" by claiming it is hypothetical or of no relevance. (I am really not flaming you I just had to point it out because you used it a number of times and were clearly meaning moot)
Themis
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Oct 2005
LcB
Mo/Me
28 Jun 2006 at 23:09 - 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_Anadri
Do you honestly think Anet forgot about Vampiric Touch when they created Vampiric Bite for factions? Or any of the other doubled skills? If Anet did not want people with both chapters to have the ability to take both skills they would have made the skills Core instead of creating a Factions variation. The doubling of skills is deliberate, not an exploit. It is an introduction of a new wrinkle to the game mechanics, in which players may choose to sacrifice one of their precious eight skill slots in order to duplicate a particular effect before the recharge of the first skill. This is a fair trade, and is the same sort of trade that echo/archane echo mesmers and glyph elementalists make, only less flexible as non mesmers and non elementalists can't chose which skill to quickly repeat.
Your logic is subjective. Feel free to think that a concious action is a self-justifying one, but from my point of view it is simply a design flaw. Deliberate, as any other mistake.
I mean, i haven't seen Inspired Enchantment on a Mesmer skill bar for at least 11 months. But... two of them ? Let me lough...
Duplicating Heal Other is poor design. Deliberately poor design, if you wish.
makosi
Grotto Attendant
Join Date: Mar 2006
"Pre-nerf" is incorrect. It's pre-buff.
Requirement Begins With R [notQ]
Me/
28 Jun 2006 at 23:17 - 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Themis
Echo has energy cost, casting and recharge times. Nothing to do with with having twice the same skill
I don't understand how that related to what I said. If anything, you backed me up. Echo takes an elite spot, has casting and recharge times and is all about having twice the same skill. Vampiric bite has none of these drawbacks so its a simulation of free Echo.
Robin_Anadri
Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Atlanta, GA
Girl Power [GP]
Me/Mo
29 Jun 2006 at 00:15 - 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Themis
Your logic is subjective. Feel free to think that a concious action is a self-justifying one, but from my point of view it is simply a design flaw. Deliberate, as any other mistake.
Duplicating Heal Other is poor design. Deliberately poor design, if you wish.
I didn't say a conscious action was a self-justifying one. I merely said it was deliberate, and thus the availability of both skills to users who have purchased both chapters is not an "exploit." It's working as designed.
A true exploit is something that violates the stated intent or spirit of the design, such as the exploit that allowed postsear items to be ferried to presear characters via the guild hall when observer mode was first introduced. That was clearly against the design of the system (presear characters cannot travel to guild halls), and as warned in the EULA, users who exploited the defect were banned.
Your opinion that the design is "poor" is subjective. You will note that the doubled skills all have a Canthan flavor in their naming, for instance "Wallow's Bite," "Silverwing Slash," "Jamei's Gaze," "Ancestor's Visage." Remember that Anet fully intended Factions to be a stand-alone game. For that to be even close to true, Factions-only users needed access to those skills. You may argue that Anet should have just made those skill Core, but instead they chose to augment the "Canthan feel" of Factions by having skills named as they are.
I'm certain that Anet discussed the doubling of skills for merged accounts in their design reviews. It did not take them by surprise. They chose to implement this design, perhaps even considering that it *does* provide an advantage to users who purchase both chapters. They are in the business of selling games, after all.
As for "free echo..." Let's look at the other ways of doubling skills. For the elementalist, Glyph of Renewal. Causes your next spell to recharge instantly, takes up your elite slot. Provided you put only spells in your other slots, you may choose to instantly recharge any of seven spells on your bar, at a cost of only 5 energy, every 15 seconds. Pretty powerful, but hey, it's an elite.
For the mesmer, first you have Echo. Takes your elite slot, makes a copy of your next skill for 20 seconds. You're not limited to only spells, so you can copy any of your other 7 skill slots (except res signet, I believe) for 5 energy cost, every 30 seconds (or every 50 seconds, I'm not at my GW computer to test and don't remember if the recharge starts at 0 after the 20 seconds of copied skill, or just finishes after another 10 seconds). Pretty powerful, but hey, it's an elite.
Secondly, you have Arcane Echo. Non-elite, copies your next spell. Like GoR, if you take only spells for your other slots, you can create a copy of any of seven spells on your bar. Costs 15 energy and you can do it every 30 seconds (or 50 seconds, depending on where it starts the recharge as above.) Not as powerful, but it's not an elite, and if you need to copy spells and don't want to go /E or burn your elite slot, it's a pretty good option.
Combining them, you can take Echo and Archane Echo or Glyph and Archane Echo to create three copies of a spell, or a copy of two spells or a skill and a spell all at the same time. Pretty powerful.
Contrast that with the doubled skills. Players using two copies of a skill don't have anything *like* the flexibility of the above solutions. They are limited to recreating the affects of only those skills that are doubled, to start with, and let's face it, the doubled skills usually aren't worth the price of that extra skill slot. You'll note that there's no "Kunavaang's Wrath" copy of Meteor Storm in Factions, or "Kunavaang's Invocation" copy of Rodgort's Invocation.
The only reason we're having this discussion at all is that the doubled vampiric skill made playing an expertise-based ranger/necromancer a little more powerful. Touch rangers aren't new with Factions, they're just more prolific.
All of that being said, none of this relates to the topic at hand, which is about tactics and builds for Mesmers to deal with touch rangers. If you want to whinge about their very existence, there's already a lovely little flame war going on in the Ranger forum. Go argue it there.
Or whatever chain of skills you choose.
