How to nerf a touch ranger.
Bloodied Blade
Just something you all may want to consider- Favorable Winds, Seeking Arrows, whatever you want. Now they can't stop your arrows from hitting them, and a simple Pin Down will slow them enough to take them out.
JimmyDean
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Originally Posted by Bloodied Blade
Just something you all may want to consider- Favorable Winds, Seeking Arrows, whatever you want. Now they can't stop your arrows from hitting them, and a simple Pin Down will slow them enough to take them out.
This is a good plan. It's usable not only versus touch rangers, but also versus many other stance users as well, so it wont hurt you when youre fighting something other than a touch ranger.
Holger
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Originally Posted by Bloodied Blade
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Originally Posted by Holger
Best nerf: Cripshot
also. if you think you're up to it, try using distracting shot on their vamp bite. i've put plenty of touchers out of business like that in alliance battles.
Xx Invictus xX
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Originally Posted by JimmyDean
It wouldn't be any more powerful than the current touch ranger. The touch skills cost 15 mana. With 16 Blood Magic and Cultists Fervor active, and assuming the skills are changed to spells, they cost 8 mana, you sacrifice 14% hp, and you steal 77 hp.
With 16 Expertise, the skills would cost only 5 mana and you steal 65 hp. You would also still have access to the stances under the Expertise line. And concerning a N/Me with distortion, the spells you are spamming already will take a huge chunk of your energy bar, even with the extra pip of regen. I dont think distortion would be able to replace stances like Whirling defense, Dodge, and Escape. A Necromancer will also have weaker armor than a ranger. If i echo Vamp Gaze - recharge 5 seconds That only costs 3 energy. And if they are spells that means "channeling" will work to recover some energy. Necros have Soul reaping and My necro has 69 energy "If" im low on energy i can cast vamp gaze as well i will be while using the 2 touch spells and if they were spells there would be no touch ranger so this would be stronger  And i would test it out before saying it wont work since no one has tested it... "distortion + spirit of failure (whichever one gains energy when foe misses) cancels it out. Well i would have fun with this. But please tell me more how it wont work. Edit: i was reading ur first post and thats exactly what i think, sure u can knockdown and cripple or degen them. But then we have everyone bring just those skills in case of a touch ranger... now we have touch rangers and touch ranger counters ... i want skills that do damage ... not counter touch rangers. So when i fight a group with no touch rangers... oh great what a waste of skills these are... sure everything is counterable people... its like me choosing to be warrior / ranger cuz what if there are other warriors beating on me... i better brg throw dirt... to counter it... why should everyone turn into "touch ranger hunters"
SnipiousMax
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Originally Posted by Xx Invictus xX
i was reading ur first post and thats exactly what i think, sure u can knockdown and cripple or degen them. But then we have everyone bring just those skills in case of a touch ranger...
Fortunately for us, knockdown, cripple, and degen work against everything. JimmyDean
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Originally Posted by SnipiousMax
Fortunately for us, knockdown, cripple, and degen work against everything.
To be perfectly frank, I cant remember the last time I died to gale or caltrops, and degen is easily remedied.
Jetdoc
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Originally Posted by JimmyDean
To be perfectly frank, I cant remember the last time I died to gale.
For some reason, I'm thinking that you haven't played against an experienced hammer warrior before if you're saying that you haven't died due to a well-timed knockdown chain.
SnipiousMax
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Originally Posted by JimmyDean
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Quote: Originally Posted by JimmyDean .....or caltrops.... Cripple won't kill you, but if your a melee range damage dealer, you won't kill anything else either. If your not a melee range damage dealer, cripple still won't kill you.... but that monster axe toting warrior behind you will.
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A lot of builds that have been nerfed were created through smart thinking, so this fact doesn't preclude a nerf for touchers.|
Originally Posted by JimmyDean
...and degen is easily remedied.
Almost as easy as it is to reapply it.
JimmyDean
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Originally Posted by Jetdoc
For some reason, I'm thinking that you haven't played against an experienced hammer warrior before if you're saying that you haven't died due to a well-timed knockdown chain.
The knockdown doesn't kill you. The damage that comes with it does.
However, I have died many times to well timed hammer spikes, and have killed just as many people with them. JimmyDean
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Originally Posted by SnipiousMax
What about shock or hammer knockdowns?
Cripple won't kill you, but if your a melee range damage dealer, you won't kill anything else either. If your not a melee range damage dealer, cripple still won't kill you.... but that monster axe toting warrior behind you will. Almost as easy as it is to reapply it. More than likely, the ranger will just turn around, hit Whirling Defense, and kill the warrior.
Nathardia
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Originally Posted by JimmyDean
More than likely, the ranger will just turn around, hit Whirling Defense, and kill the warrior.
More than likely, a smart warrior will carry something like Wild Blow. Say goodbye to your stance(s).
Poison Ivy
Diversion.
End of story. JimmyDean
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Originally Posted by Poison Ivy
Diversion.
End of story. Is there anyone here that didn't already know this? I didn't think so. We know how to beat touch rangers. I'm just not willing to take mesmer secondary with diversion on every character I pvp with so I can play on an even field with touch rangers. JimmyDean
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Originally Posted by Nathardia
More than likely, a smart warrior will carry something like Wild Blow. Say goodbye to your stance(s).
In which case the ranger will most likely just hit dodge and run, or stay and kill the warrior. 130 damage every 3 seconds is pretty tough to beat, especially when your target is healed for that much.
Arturo02
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Originally Posted by JimmyDean
Is there anyone here that didn't already know this? I didn't think so. We know how to beat touch rangers. I'm just not willing to take mesmer secondary with diversion on every character I pvp with so I can play on an even field with touch rangers.
Saying you won't do something simply because you feel you shouldn't have to is irrelevant to the issue. The whole point is to beat the other team, it doesn't matter how, as long as it is not a bug or an exploit. You have to use a build that is designed for success, no matter how much you like it or not. The whole premise of an MMO depends on accepting change, and that's the root of it all. People hate change, and MMO's do it all the time.
If you refuse to adapt to give yourself and your team a chance to win in pvp then why even pvp in the first place. JimmyDean
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Originally Posted by Arturo02
Saying you won't do something simply because you feel you shouldn't have to is irrelevant to the issue. The whole point is to beat the other team, it doesn't matter how, as long as it is not a bug or an exploit. You have to use a build that is designed for success, no matter how much you like it or not. The whole premise of an MMO depends on accepting change, and that's the root of it all. People hate change, and MMO's do it all the time.
If you refuse to adapt to give yourself and your team a chance to win in pvp then why even pvp in the first place. It is clear that most of the people here dont care about having a fair fight versus a skilled player, as long as they can get their faction. If you want to play a touch ranger, enjoy yourself; I'm not going to say anything else on the topic.
SnipiousMax
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Originally Posted by JimmyDean
It is clear that most of the people here dont care about having a fair fight versus a skilled player...
Except its never a fair fight if its one on one. It's always going to be tipped one way or the other. That a few classes are weak against touch rangers is irrelevant, because team members will pick up the slack.
vaxmor
Q) How to nerf a touch ranger?
A) learn2play
Arturo02
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Originally Posted by JimmyDean
It is clear that most of the people here dont care about having a fair fight versus a skilled player, as long as they can get their faction. If you want to play a touch ranger, enjoy yourself; I'm not going to say anything else on the topic.
I wasn't saying I play a touch ranger although I can see how you could look at it like that. I play a ranger build that is designed to be effective in AB's overall and against touchers. An all-traps build. j/k hehe.
Just saying that putting limits on what skills or professions you will use in AB's hurts you not the opponent. Not saying you have to play a toucher, but nothing wrong with that mesmer secondary to counter it. All of us SHOULD be able to play any build we want and be succesful, but that completely ignores the metagame. Even in pve, you can't play any old build, you have to tailor it to combat and defeat what you will face where you go.
Sol_Vie
If you're a warrior or a ranger there's an easy fix to touch rangers. Bring interrupts. Wait for the ranger to get right up next to you. Once he's about to stop hit Distracting Shot or Blow. Bam. One skill down. Then just spam your interrupts. Works really well. Works against W/Ns with Plague Touch too.
Dark Tykane
If they were made into spells than vampiric spirit would be over powered...enough said.
Cultist's Fervor even more than that....
Kuja
The point isnt that they are overpowered its that they are too easy
please dont get gaile messing with expertise, tell her to change vamp skills to spells/attack skills and adjust recharge.
Dragannia
I've already suggested this before. Making the Vamps into spells would utterly destroy TRs, which frankly is stupid. TRs teach people how to properly kite, like an idiot filter. In any case, making the two Vampiric Touches into "Deal X Shadow damage. You gain this much in health" would make them still powerful, but much weaker (since things like Reversal would affect it now).
Holger
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Originally Posted by Dragannia
TRs teach people how to properly kite, like an idiot filter.
amen.
why don't people take one or two skills to counter touch rangers!? shouldn't people be trying to personalize their builds to be effective against a variety of builds instead of just a one? there is at least one skill per profession that works as a counter to another profession's skills.
tomcruisejr
Arcane Echo > Iron Mist > Echo * > Iron Mist > Iron Mist
DarkSpirit
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Originally Posted by Dragannia
I've already suggested this before. Making the Vamps into spells would utterly destroy TRs, which frankly is stupid. TRs teach people how to properly kite, like an idiot filter. In any case, making the two Vampiric Touches into "Deal X Shadow damage. You gain this much in health" would make them still powerful, but much weaker (since things like Reversal would affect it now).
Yes making them into spells would make TRs not viable anymore because the only reason why they use Rangers is due to the expertise attribute that allows them to spam these high energy skills in the first place.
I dont think ANet wants to totally destroy the build and that is why some skills in the caster line are designated as "skills" rather than spells, from the very beginning. It is not ANet's job to make PvP easy for you all the time, it is your job to think of counters (which there are many) if you want to win. Dark Tykane
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Originally Posted by Kuja
The point isnt that they are overpowered its that they are too easy
please dont get gaile messing with expertise, tell her to change vamp skills to spells/attack skills and adjust recharge. Read the post right above this one.... Theres a big reason why Anet made some necro skills count as just SKILLS instead of spells. If you make them into spells you get necros arising doing almost the exact same thing as touchers but they will be doing more damage.... Dark Tykane
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Originally Posted by Dragannia
I've already suggested this before. Making the Vamps into spells would utterly destroy TRs, which frankly is stupid. TRs teach people how to properly kite, like an idiot filter. In any case, making the two Vampiric Touches into "Deal X Shadow damage. You gain this much in health" would make them still powerful, but much weaker (since things like Reversal would affect it now).
Things like Protective spirit would also save the caster.....life stealing was a huge nerf for 55 monks....what happens when they make the skill into dark damage? then you would see an uprise of idiots doing pretty much the elonas reach run only in the jungle.
Caleb
I would rather they nerf people that open the 15th thread on the same subject.
Touch rangers are extremely easy to counter/defeat.
JoeKnowMo
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Originally Posted by Loki Seiguro
touch ranegsr were created through smart thinking like all the other builds so it would be wrong to nerf touch rangers (not sure if what im saying makes sense but w/e) |
Having played a toucher myself, I have to say it is an easy build to play and is highly effective against a multitude of builds.
A quick review of counters to touchers that ppl brought up:
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EDIT: Please look here for suggested counters for touch rangers...took me 2 minutes to find it: http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/R/N_Touch_Ranger Taken from the GuildWiki link posted by TwinRaven above:
Use anti-spammer strategies, such as Blackout or Diversion.
Diversion is a good counter. However, it has a 2 second cast time (with decent points in fast casting), 10 second recharge, and is effective for 6 seconds. Combined with a couple of Wastrel's Worries, you could around 120 dmg (at high Dom) during the time that Diversion is on if the toucher waits out the diversion. Throw on an Energy Burn for another 80 dmg. If the toucher waits out the first diversion there's at least a 6 second downtime before you can get the second one on him. During this 6 second down time, the toucher can get off 3-4 touches, doing 195 to 260 dmg to you while healing themselves for that same amount.
Blackout is a counter to almost every build, but disables your skills too, so you won't be doing much damage to the toucher either.
Diversion and Blackout will slow the toucher, but won't kill him, unless he's dumb enough to use a skill when diversion is on him.
Even mild energy denial (eg. Malaise or Wither) coupled with Signet of Humility causes a lot of problems for Touch Rangers.
The problem with Malaise is that the toucher can spam his touch skills, and when he gets down to 0 energy, Malaise/Wither will end. In a few seconds, he will be at 5 energy and can use OoB to get his energy back up.
Signet of Humility will disable their elite for 13 seconds. A pretty good counter if you can time it just before they need to use OoB.
Snare the ranger and run away. Ward Against Foes and other area snares are highly effective against groups of Touch Rangers.
Traps, ward against foes, etc. will help against touchers. But often they will plague touch the cripple away. Ward against Foes does well.
Focused damage and health degeneration. Life stealing is slow and inefficient healing relative to pure healing spells.
Make them your primary target. However, your melee type players should move away from them and thus can't contribute to the damage being dealt. With high armor against elemental dmg, your ele will need some timet o kill them.
If timed properly, Meteor Shower should keep them down long enough for them to be taken down, as they can only heal by touching others.
Cast a MS and stand in it. Again, this is elemental dmg and they can usually get a touch or two in before the next KD, thus losing almost no health.
Crippling Anguish can slow them and cause health degen, two things that the build can't handle.
Yes, this will mess them up. As will imagined burden, Ehtereal or Kitah's Burden. More on Illusion Mesmers later.
Assassins armed with skill interrupts/knockdowns can also shut down this build.
If they bring some sort of skill to prevent blocking/evasion by the ranger.
Water Elementalists can be used to slow down a touch ranger and deal damage before it can reach its target; Mind Freeze is particularly effective.
Mind Freeze will do great. But it's not a very high dmg elite. Again, with high armor against elemental, a water ele takes a long time to kill a toucher.
What I find works best is Illusion Mesmer skills that slow and other that degen them. I typically run a Shared Burden/Imagined Burden build (since touchers tend to bunch) along with Mantra of Persistence when I see a lot of touchers around, and then throw degens on them. This is probably the most effective build against touchers and it's not completely useless against other builds too.
Quote: Originally Posted by Helll is for Heroes just bring a cripple/poison/interrupt ranger and you win. Touchers typically have dodge/zojun's haste/whirling defense on, so good luck trying to hit them with your arrows.
Quote: Originally Posted by mathijn a toucher chains skills, so if you know how to interrupt(frenzy+choking gas?)
they are useless. How did this work out for you? I hope you eventually realized that choking gas only interrupts spells not skills.
Quote: Originally Posted by Bloodied Blade Just because it's difficult to beat doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed. 2 Diversions and their entire skillbar is shot. Even worse is to just use Scourge Healing on them while you're using the diversions. At 12-16 smite it completely cancels the healing they get. That means you can go R/Mo with Scourge Healing and stop their touches from healing them, meaning that if you also pack Distracting Shot and another interrupt or two you can completely neutralize them. Called Shot also bypasses their stances, so Scourge Heal + Called Shot will kill them easily enough. Distracting shot will hit if they're not in a stance, which they usually are. Even if they're not in a stance, you have to anticipate the touch and fire before they touch. If you mistime, have fun running around for 10 seconds while it recharges.
How did Scourge Healing work out? Pretty badly I'm guessing since it only works on direct heals and not on life stealing.
Quote: Originally Posted by Brahm Earis I've got a touch ranger, and here's a couple of hints to stop them.
1.) Slow them down. Cripple, knockdown, imagined burden, ward against foes, something to slow them down.
2.) Mesmers. Mesmers always own the hell out of my touch, especially diversion.
3.) Stop sucking. Learn to play and stop whining. Wild blow>whirling defense and lightning reflexes. Diversion>touch skills. Cripple, imagined burden, ward against foes, knock down>running.
Thats my input. My ranger is touch for PVP at the moment, and they aren't all uber unbeatable. KDs are OK against touchers, except you usually need to be in melee range to KD and that means they're gonna be stealing back life.
See my earlier note on diversion, a toucher can usually wait it out without too much trouble.
Wild Blow will work well to end their stance. But there are very few warriors that can go toe to toe with a toucher and still win. As the warrior bashes them for damage, they are doing 130 dmg to the war and healing themselves for that same amount every 3 seconds. Don't bother trying to heal with Healing Sig, as they'll steal as much or more life from you as the heal.
Quote: Originally Posted by R_Frost
i can take my ranger one on one with a touch ranger(or any other caster). 9 of 10 times ill beat the touch with normal bow skills. incendary arrows(everytime arrow hits target is interupted and set on fire),tigers fury,pin down,savage shot,distracting shot, serpents quickness, troll ungent and whatever i feel like throwing in for the 8th slot.
If a touchers is not using a stance, they're just bad players. If they're in a stance like they should be, only 1/4 of your arrows will hit. With Tiger's Fury on, you'll be shooting arrows once every 1.33 secs (with a short or flatbow). That means every 5.33 secs, you'll hit them once. They'll be doing 195-260 dmg to you over that time while healing themselves. If your Pin Down misses, you'll have to wait over 10 seconds for it to recharge and hope it hits this time. Once they get up close, they can touch off the fire or cripple on to you. With no running skills, a good toucher shouldn't have much trouble with your build.
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Originally Posted by Bloodied Blade
Just something you all may want to consider- Favorable Winds, Seeking Arrows, whatever you want. Now they can't stop your arrows from hitting them, and a simple Pin Down will slow them enough to take them out.
Yes, this build will work. Hit them with some high damage stuff after Pin Down and this should kill them pretty fast. Quote:
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Please people this is the last time I'll ever say it...don't beg for nerfs when there are easy ways past them 
