Request for more Aggressive Balancing
coleslawdressin
These are my ideas for possible changes to NR - some have been listen before:
1. Make it elite.
2. Remove the enchantment stripping altogether.
3. Modify it to Enchantments and Hexes take 60% to 120%(lvl 12 nature skill) longer to cast.
3. Make it easily interrupted like traps.
4. Modify the insanely overpowered, global enchantment removal portion to read:
"After X..Y seconds Nature's Renewal destroys X..Y enchantments in its range."
Suggested table based on skill level:
1 - After 90 seconds, destroy 1 enchantment
2 - After 85 seconds, destroy 1 enchantment
3 - After 80 seconds, destroy 1 enchantment
4 - After 75 seconds, destroy 1 enchantment
5 - After 70 seconds, destroy 2 enchantments
6 - After 65 seconds, destroy 2 enchantments
7 - After 60 seconds, destroy 2 enchantments
8 - After 55 seconds, destroy 2 enchantments
9 - After 50 seconds, destroy 3 enchantments
10 - After 45 seconds, destroy 3 enchantments
11 - After 40 seconds, destroy 3 enchantments
12 - After 35 seconds, destroy 3 enchantments
13 - After 30 seconds, destroy 4 enchantments
14 - After 25 seconds, destroy 4 enchantments
15 - After 20 seconds, destroy 4 enchantments
16 - After 15 seconds, destroy 4 enchantments
17 - After 10 seconds, destroy 5 enchantments
NR should be more like most skills, situational. It will slow down enchant/hex heavy teams, reward points in nature, and maybe still be the best enchant debuff... but not at level 1 skill. Knowing that there is such inbalance with skills like NR really make me disinterested trying to join a GvG and HoH guild.
Think this will just go back to making healing balls overpowered? Change Healing Seed to have a max total healing or something (I am not totally sure how this strategy works). This thread is supposed to be about aggressive balancing not counters to things like NR in its current form. Having an elite skill system is fine, but maybe ArenaNet can consider, like Magic Cards (this game always reminded me of Magic), having some skills banned from GvG, HoH, and maybe 4v4's. They could allow players with X rank or with X fame access to a select forum on their website where they give/get feedback from the game designers on the PvP balance. A healthy PvP system will be one of the important factors to Guild Wars' longevity. A lot less people will buy an expansion if there are not new skills added, so things will (hopefully) become a lot more complex and also balanced.
1. Make it elite.
2. Remove the enchantment stripping altogether.
3. Modify it to Enchantments and Hexes take 60% to 120%(lvl 12 nature skill) longer to cast.
3. Make it easily interrupted like traps.
4. Modify the insanely overpowered, global enchantment removal portion to read:
"After X..Y seconds Nature's Renewal destroys X..Y enchantments in its range."
Suggested table based on skill level:
1 - After 90 seconds, destroy 1 enchantment
2 - After 85 seconds, destroy 1 enchantment
3 - After 80 seconds, destroy 1 enchantment
4 - After 75 seconds, destroy 1 enchantment
5 - After 70 seconds, destroy 2 enchantments
6 - After 65 seconds, destroy 2 enchantments
7 - After 60 seconds, destroy 2 enchantments
8 - After 55 seconds, destroy 2 enchantments
9 - After 50 seconds, destroy 3 enchantments
10 - After 45 seconds, destroy 3 enchantments
11 - After 40 seconds, destroy 3 enchantments
12 - After 35 seconds, destroy 3 enchantments
13 - After 30 seconds, destroy 4 enchantments
14 - After 25 seconds, destroy 4 enchantments
15 - After 20 seconds, destroy 4 enchantments
16 - After 15 seconds, destroy 4 enchantments
17 - After 10 seconds, destroy 5 enchantments
NR should be more like most skills, situational. It will slow down enchant/hex heavy teams, reward points in nature, and maybe still be the best enchant debuff... but not at level 1 skill. Knowing that there is such inbalance with skills like NR really make me disinterested trying to join a GvG and HoH guild.
Think this will just go back to making healing balls overpowered? Change Healing Seed to have a max total healing or something (I am not totally sure how this strategy works). This thread is supposed to be about aggressive balancing not counters to things like NR in its current form. Having an elite skill system is fine, but maybe ArenaNet can consider, like Magic Cards (this game always reminded me of Magic), having some skills banned from GvG, HoH, and maybe 4v4's. They could allow players with X rank or with X fame access to a select forum on their website where they give/get feedback from the game designers on the PvP balance. A healthy PvP system will be one of the important factors to Guild Wars' longevity. A lot less people will buy an expansion if there are not new skills added, so things will (hopefully) become a lot more complex and also balanced.
Phades
Making it eliete wont solve anything, it will just make it come back every 25 seconds instead of every 10-15 seconds from a single user with no copies of it or oath shot.
Removing the enchantment stripping would also require enchantment rebalnacing, which is what really needs to occur.
Just making the enchantments cast longer solves nothing and would be something to use in conjunction with other proposed changes.
Easy or hard to interupt, there are still ways around not being hit, just like how rangers can avoid being hit now. This would also be something to add to all spirits, but this alone wouldnt balance them.
Its base time duration is still 30s, so your table is a bit backwards when it comes to when it would actually strip the enchantment. Should it follow the delayed strip method, it wouldnt accomplish much against the healing balls without multiple copies expiring while multiple copies were up at the same time. 1 skill should never slow down a team build. That is the main problem with the skill and spirits in general, due to their overarching effect.
The devs still need to adress any instance of multiple copies in effect at the same time while examining the perma duration or easily refreshed skill options within the game. There is no nearly no point in having a duration on something with a refresh time vastly smaller than it. Imagine if other skills followed that path, like chaos storm or meteor shower having multiple copies of it from the same user littering the battlefield in an unending fashion.
Removing the enchantment stripping would also require enchantment rebalnacing, which is what really needs to occur.
Just making the enchantments cast longer solves nothing and would be something to use in conjunction with other proposed changes.
Easy or hard to interupt, there are still ways around not being hit, just like how rangers can avoid being hit now. This would also be something to add to all spirits, but this alone wouldnt balance them.
Its base time duration is still 30s, so your table is a bit backwards when it comes to when it would actually strip the enchantment. Should it follow the delayed strip method, it wouldnt accomplish much against the healing balls without multiple copies expiring while multiple copies were up at the same time. 1 skill should never slow down a team build. That is the main problem with the skill and spirits in general, due to their overarching effect.
The devs still need to adress any instance of multiple copies in effect at the same time while examining the perma duration or easily refreshed skill options within the game. There is no nearly no point in having a duration on something with a refresh time vastly smaller than it. Imagine if other skills followed that path, like chaos storm or meteor shower having multiple copies of it from the same user littering the battlefield in an unending fashion.
coleslawdressin
If limiting NR's spammability is part of the solution, then make it elite. The only way to use Oath Shot with it then would be to use a R/Me or Me/R and use Arcane Mimicry. NR's recharge is 60 seconds or 30 seconds with Quickening Zephyr. Off the top of my head I don't see how it is coming back every 25sec.
Making it easy to interrupt is part of making it less overpowered.. It would be weird to have only 1 spirit be that way though. Yes there are ways to avoid being hit, but there are also warriors who use Wild Blow and Distracting Blow. Anyhow, any one skill should not be so powerful that it demands several characters dedicated to stopping it.. or that any good team has to give in and use it themselves.
"Just making the enchantments cast longer solves nothing and would be something to use in conjunction with other proposed changes."
I really strongly disagree with this and what other proposed changes you suggest is not clear. One skill should not be a solution to a whole team's strategy. In most cases, having more points in an attribute is rewarded with benefits. If a level 16 NR made all enchantments and hexes take 130% longer for 145 seconds, that would be quite powerful. If a team is enchant/hex heavy, it is both slowing down their actions and making them easier to interrupt.
My table is not backwards, but I did forget to take into account spirits' current duration setup. Maybe all Spirits of Nature's Renewal could last 90-142 seconds, but a level 1 spirit would only slow ench. and hexs by 60% for 30 seconds. After that the spirit doesn't die but the global effect would disappear, then at 90sec the spirit would die and remove 1 enchant from all players in range. NR is powerful for its immediacy and high levels in Wilderness should be rewarded with more debuff and that debuff coming sooner.
Making it easy to interrupt is part of making it less overpowered.. It would be weird to have only 1 spirit be that way though. Yes there are ways to avoid being hit, but there are also warriors who use Wild Blow and Distracting Blow. Anyhow, any one skill should not be so powerful that it demands several characters dedicated to stopping it.. or that any good team has to give in and use it themselves.
"Just making the enchantments cast longer solves nothing and would be something to use in conjunction with other proposed changes."
I really strongly disagree with this and what other proposed changes you suggest is not clear. One skill should not be a solution to a whole team's strategy. In most cases, having more points in an attribute is rewarded with benefits. If a level 16 NR made all enchantments and hexes take 130% longer for 145 seconds, that would be quite powerful. If a team is enchant/hex heavy, it is both slowing down their actions and making them easier to interrupt.
My table is not backwards, but I did forget to take into account spirits' current duration setup. Maybe all Spirits of Nature's Renewal could last 90-142 seconds, but a level 1 spirit would only slow ench. and hexs by 60% for 30 seconds. After that the spirit doesn't die but the global effect would disappear, then at 90sec the spirit would die and remove 1 enchant from all players in range. NR is powerful for its immediacy and high levels in Wilderness should be rewarded with more debuff and that debuff coming sooner.
Phades
Looks at Serpents quickness then add cast time.
There are many ways to counter a warrior, stances are only one of thoe methods.
Review the entire thread. Enchantments, like other skills, need appropriate refresh times associated with them in order to begin to have some form of balance.
Having effects that are permenant, for all intensive purposes, defeats the purpose of having a recast time on them. This is especially important on things with exsessivly long durations that have global effects or no definable duration.
The problem has many layers to it and doesnt just start and stop with nature's renewal.
There are many ways to counter a warrior, stances are only one of thoe methods.
Review the entire thread. Enchantments, like other skills, need appropriate refresh times associated with them in order to begin to have some form of balance.
Having effects that are permenant, for all intensive purposes, defeats the purpose of having a recast time on them. This is especially important on things with exsessivly long durations that have global effects or no definable duration.
The problem has many layers to it and doesnt just start and stop with nature's renewal.
Ollj
request for more use your stupid brains to run more than 3 different build and do something creative without looking for max damage and acting like sissys all the time!
Odd Sock
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Originally Posted by Ollj
request for more use your stupid brains to run more than 3 different build and do something creative without looking for max damage and acting like sissys all the time!
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Ollj, you've just insulted so many people with that sentence. I've been warned not to flame anymore (even towards retarded people) so I'll keep my post as tactful as I can. The people you're telling to be creative are the very same people that started abusing the heal ball, made putrid popular since it avoided Well of Profane and ultimately got NR to be so damned abusive. There are also people that got spike damage that relied on enchant stacking and some people that used buff stacking to get 5 hit kills. Lots of the people that you've insulted are the ones that affected Flavour of the Month builds and that you've mimicked or lost to.
See everyone here runs more than 3 builds but in the end they all come down to being the same thing; you can't run enchant/buff stacking since it gets demolished insanely fast by NR and you lose. Your team can't refrain from using NR or else you might face a team that will enchant stack and destroy you. You basically HAVE to run NR or you'll be the gimped team. Now look at what you can do under an NR environment. It's not that we're not using our brains, it's that there isn't anything there to use. Maybe you think stacking preperations is ingenious but it doesn't work. There are maybe 100 of the 450 skills that can be decent under NR and only a few combo properly together.
Oh and by the way the difference between a good build and a bad one is that the good one will have the max damage and in the long run beat the non-max damage one. You think the top teams run 9 weapon-attribute axe warriors cause they just want to be able to use the weapon and not care about the damage ? Get real please.
coleslawdressin
Phades, I guess you mean something with the skill recharging as son as the 5 second cast time starts? I haven't used spirits in quite some time so I haven't paid attention. I was talking about using those 2 warrior skills to counter the spirit spammer, or would just need Wild Blow if it was made easily interruptable. If the developers want to balance all skills better they will need to review a lot of skills, underpowered ones too. I read most of the thread since it was started.. I guess I can read it again.. I guess by refresh times you mean times for skills to recharge? What specific changes do you suggest though?
I wonder if someone could get Gaile or one of the designers to comment on this thread.
I wonder if someone could get Gaile or one of the designers to comment on this thread.
Orochim4ru
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Ok Orochim4ru, who are people going to believe? The guys who actually played with and pushed the new healing ball to the level it is now, and know that Chilblains cant break it-or some guy on a forum trying to break it with terrible skills like Malaise and Ether Lord? |
For example, malaise can be used on every team: it cuts natural regen in half for casters. Always useful. Ether lord is similar. I could have said panic, but ether lord is just more usable (low on energy and want to piss someone off? Chuck a lord their way). Obviously i could have designed the ultimate healball breaker team, resplendant with 4 mes/necros, but that wasn't the point at all. Every team should have enchant removal.
As for your holier than thou attitude, that's incredibly close to flamebait, and i'd prefer it if you actually argued your point and brought real builds to the table instead of saying "oh, my healball isn't broken by anything".
NR has to be nerfed, everyone agrees about that, but we all also agree that if it goes and nothing is done, heal ball will be back. That's why i'm arguing strictly without NR. Obviously NR breaks healballs. Duh. I'm saying that our current enchant removal skills are perfectly able to topple a ball, but they have to be used properly, you on the other hand are saying that the healball can't be broken. At the very least, you can rend a non-bonding/seeding player and spike them to death, interupting the bond when its cast, rendering the healball completely neutered.
In sum, you've basically said nothing, trying to throw your place in iQ around in order to justify your lack of argument.
Ensign
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Originally Posted by Orochim4ru
Read the sentence. If they can't kill you, you can set up a dual rend spike.
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Originally Posted by Orochim4ru
Not only that, this one character, the necro debuffer, wrecks the entire ball build.
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That was back when we actually cared about such things. Towards the end Rends and Lingering Curses weren't really relevant, because you couldn't hit the bonder, you couldn't spike someone out through Fertile Season + Wards + focused heal spam, and the Bond came right back up after two seconds anyway. They'd be nice to shut down but hardly neccessary if there were more dangerous targets.
Rends help break a ball, sure, but they aren't going to do it on their own. Multiples? That'd start to be annoying, sure.
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Originally Posted by Orochim4ru
Please, don't tell me chillblains can't punch through a heal ball
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Originally Posted by Orochim4ru
All you need to strip is one heal seed.
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Originally Posted by Orochim4ru
then while the heal monks scramble to put it back on, you drop the chillblains to remove the seed as well as all the unprotected bonds.
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In reality, those of us who ran a healing ball for over a month are well aware of what's actually dangerous, and how to counter those threats. Chilblains was a threat, but one that was containable. Most of the time you're going to pull off an Aegis, or an Order, or Dark Fury, or a Healing Breeze, or Vigorous Spirit, or a Divine Boon, or a BiP, or one of the other spammable pieces of chaff that we happened to be running that week.
You might not want to believe it, but we really do not care about a solitary character with Chilblains. He just doesn't do anything but spend 25 energy to pull off chaff.
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Originally Posted by Orochim4ru
Then again, always a favorite alternative is getting someone to kill themselves while you well, but doing that requires you to have mantra of concentration and a decent amount of body blocking.
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Peace,
-CxE
Orochim4ru
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No one is going to make a horrible Mes/Nec with Malaise and Ether Lord to break a healing ball-because it wont work |
If anything, as a mes, i would probably use something more along the lines of arcane echo/echo/blackout to stop the bonder from replacing bonds (or doing anything)on the healing monks for upwards of 40 seconds, but that wasn't the point. The point was that this seemingly all purpose build could break a ball given proper teamplay, which you totally ignored.
I KNOW you know you can break a ball. So can i. The point is that ball isn't "omfg ovarpowered" to the point where all the enchant stripping abilities have to be buffed post NR nerf.
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The reason iQ gets respect is that we dont type bullshit on forums trying to come off as gods |
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While you try and pinpoint when to break through the ball,looking for a point to snap a bon the other team is just loading up enchantments and not caring about ST removal. Why should they play the game by your rules? Oh, they dont have to. |
The problem, however, is that people are too "flavour of the month" regarding this discussion, and fail to see possibilities outside what they've used. Yourself included.
Edit: Ensign actually posted something that gave real points, i'll be talking about them soon, because most of them are valid.
Keure
In response to the OP, I'd like to fully support a measure for more aggressive balancing of skills/spells.
I'd also like to just pop off a few suggestions that...umm...popped into my head as I was reading this thread.
There was a remark about how NR has a very very low opportunity cost when you're designing a build to fight off NR teams. I think that the issue of having such a powerful effect taking up one skill slot has to be addressed along with the obvious ones (increase requirements and an overall nerf to the ability).
Why not divide the Nature's Renewal effect among several different skills so that the ability to create an environment unfriendly to enchantments requires many more skill slots? I'd personally rather have the "twice as long to cast hexes" chopped off the skill entirely and made into another ritual, and then make the current NR effect (minus hex castration) into a few different skills that are to be used together to create the desired effect (while not using them all would not work all that well).
As for enchantment removal, there are a couple of ideas I'd just like to throw out...numbers are arbitrary.
(some appropriate name): Removes an enchantment. Any other enchants with the same name are also removed.
(some appropriate name): Removes an enchantment. Also removes 0...5 enchants from the same attribute on the enemy team.
(some appropriate name): Removes an enchantment. All copies of that enchantment are disabled for 1...6 seconds.
Corresponding nerf to stuff like Orders or any similar group enchant: If the caster is (insert appropriate effect here), all copies of (group enchant) are removed.
I'd also like to just pop off a few suggestions that...umm...popped into my head as I was reading this thread.
There was a remark about how NR has a very very low opportunity cost when you're designing a build to fight off NR teams. I think that the issue of having such a powerful effect taking up one skill slot has to be addressed along with the obvious ones (increase requirements and an overall nerf to the ability).
Why not divide the Nature's Renewal effect among several different skills so that the ability to create an environment unfriendly to enchantments requires many more skill slots? I'd personally rather have the "twice as long to cast hexes" chopped off the skill entirely and made into another ritual, and then make the current NR effect (minus hex castration) into a few different skills that are to be used together to create the desired effect (while not using them all would not work all that well).
As for enchantment removal, there are a couple of ideas I'd just like to throw out...numbers are arbitrary.
(some appropriate name): Removes an enchantment. Any other enchants with the same name are also removed.
(some appropriate name): Removes an enchantment. Also removes 0...5 enchants from the same attribute on the enemy team.
(some appropriate name): Removes an enchantment. All copies of that enchantment are disabled for 1...6 seconds.
Corresponding nerf to stuff like Orders or any similar group enchant: If the caster is (insert appropriate effect here), all copies of (group enchant) are removed.
Orochim4ru
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This character does very little in a hall hold situation. Why? Because we know that primary Necros, at least back when healing balls were relevant, carried Rends and Wells and Lingering Curses and all that stuff. So we stuck a Mesmer on him and made sure that he never cast a single relevant spell in the entire 10 minutes of the match. |
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Now, sending a wave of bodies in at once, say 3 or so, would probably do the trick, if you could coordinate their deaths. Never saw anyone willing to try that, though |
Maybe the key would be the 2 opposing teams actually working together?
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Rends help break a ball, sure, but they aren't going to do it on their own. Multiples? That'd start to be annoying, sure. |
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I won't tell you Chilblains can't punch through a healing ball, because it can. But if you're not using several coordinated copies of it you're wasting your time. |
The problem i see with heal ball isn't so much that it can't be cracked: it can. If your monks are on their backs/taking incidiary arrow spam/whatever focused,organized disruption, they can't be restoring bonds. The problem is that the chance to crack it comes once every 30 seconds or so, since enchant removal has huge recast times. I'd be for keeping the casting costs as they are, but lowering recasts to 10 seconds or so.
And Blackice, seriously, grow up.
Orochim4ru
Ensign is debating, and you are not. If he disproves everything i say, then so be it.
You on the other hand are using ability 2 from pikachu (omg leik i win becuz i'm so cool!). Irony that you posted it. Either way, i'm not replying to anymore of your flamebait, since that's what it clearly is. I'll do us both a favor and let you troll someone else in the meantime.
You on the other hand are using ability 2 from pikachu (omg leik i win becuz i'm so cool!). Irony that you posted it. Either way, i'm not replying to anymore of your flamebait, since that's what it clearly is. I'll do us both a favor and let you troll someone else in the meantime.
Orochim4ru
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Like I've said before I have low tolerance for asshats. |
What point didn't you get? I haven't been even close to saying that ether lord/malaise is the best way to deny energy (I'd much rather be using energy drain/power leak/energy tap then malaise. Even panic can work here), nor have i said that chillblains is the only way to go. You confirmed pretty much my only point about chillblains: its needed to stop spellbreaker.
My entire point, and you KEEP missing it is that intelligent use of enchantment removal and a decent team build can allow you to break a healing ball, even if you aren't set up to specifically counter it. This means that huge buffs to enchantment removal are unnecessary and thus smaller tweaks are appropriate. Remember, this was all said in the context of people clamouring for huge buffs of enchant removal following the general agreement that NR has to be toned down.
As for you hating ether lord, your analysis forgets to mention that it isn't 16 net energy. Its a swing of 37 for a 5 energy skill. That's the highest swing in the entire game, save for energy drain. The skill isn't used to regen energy (at 5 energy, you can energy tap for immediate energy), its used to deny them theirs. Not only that, but it makes a decent cover to better hexes, since convert hex and contemplation of purity aren't the best skills on the block. To add to that, its rather difficult to remove a hex when you have no energy. Ether lord is a solid skill for energy denial.
Odd Sock
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Originally Posted by Orochim4ru
Yeah, that's specifically why i put arcane echo into that one person, to give him a double rend option. If multiple teams were going for the dias, that would be either 4 rends or 4 chillblains, discounting every other character on their team.
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First off Arcane Echoing Rend. Hmmm 15 energy, 10 energy, 10 energy. 45 energy and a grand 8 second cast time, that's without after cast. Now to reapply the bonds that you destroyed, 4 seconds without aftercast times. Removing enchantments in a heal ball is also a good way to yell out ''hey ! we're spiking this guy !''. Then you have 3 monks casting Orison right when that orb/arrow/weapon hits. Now to Arcane Echo Chillblains. Hmmm 15 energy, 25 energy, 25 energy. 65 energy to remove 2 enchantments on multiple targets. GG impossible combo that would require a focus swap and leave with a trashed energy pool.
For the love of god, please stop saying Chillblains is good and if NR gets fixed enchant removal is going to be ok. It's not, 25 energy to remove an unrelaible amount of enchantments is not good. Plus the fact that no one really cares as the bonds will simply come back up. If you say interruption then you'll be looking at Spellbreaker, Obs Flesh, Guardian, Aegis and/or a combination of all the skills mentioned above. When we'd face Chillblains is was an annoyance since it removed all the scum that we'd put over our important enchants. Then we'd have to reapply for a cost far cheaper than 25 energy (potentially 30 cause you have to remove that poison with a Mend). Please stop talking about this skill like it was a monster, it sucks.
Back on topic though, fix NR and rebalance enchant removal as well as hex management options.
EDIT: I was typing while he put up his post
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Originally Posted by Orochim4ru
Not only that, but it makes a decent cover to better hexes, since convert hex and contemplation of purity aren't the best skills on the block. To add to that, its rather difficult to remove a hex when you have no energy. Ether lord is a solid skill for energy denial.
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Tigris Of Gaul
Haven't had the time to look through the last couple pages because I've been out of town, but glancing and seeing the suggestion of making Nature's Renewal elite...
I'd prefer that ArenaNet goes through actual balancing with this skill and avoid the easy way of slapping the elite tag on it. Some R/Mes could still get around it and consistently put it out, and that's not solving anything. As mentioned, even as an elite it's still worth taking because it's just plain dominant. I'd like ArenaNet to actually modify the skill in its abilities, because that's going to go much farther then, "Hmm... elite? Ok, done."
EDIT: Absolutely agree with the above poster; fixing NR and leaving it at that does nothing to solve the problem. Chilblains needs to have multiple copies to really be effective, and at 25 energy that's pretty damn expensive. You fix NR and you need to look at Rend Enchantments, Chilblains, etc.
I'd prefer that ArenaNet goes through actual balancing with this skill and avoid the easy way of slapping the elite tag on it. Some R/Mes could still get around it and consistently put it out, and that's not solving anything. As mentioned, even as an elite it's still worth taking because it's just plain dominant. I'd like ArenaNet to actually modify the skill in its abilities, because that's going to go much farther then, "Hmm... elite? Ok, done."
EDIT: Absolutely agree with the above poster; fixing NR and leaving it at that does nothing to solve the problem. Chilblains needs to have multiple copies to really be effective, and at 25 energy that's pretty damn expensive. You fix NR and you need to look at Rend Enchantments, Chilblains, etc.
Nash
Ether Lord is total trash.
At 3 pips, 9 sec it's 9 energy less for your target.
You, however, lose about 6.8 energy (at a reasonable level of FC), gaining 9 back. That is, of course, assuming you use it at 5 energy, and it doesn't get removed.
At 3 pips, 9 sec it's 9 energy less for your target.
You, however, lose about 6.8 energy (at a reasonable level of FC), gaining 9 back. That is, of course, assuming you use it at 5 energy, and it doesn't get removed.
Odd Sock
Breaking the heal ball is quite simple. Oftentimes when we'd run it inside the hall, our losses were due to a) Nature's Renewal coming up b) elemental damage rocking us c) intelligent double teaming. Heal balls aren't invincible, all you need is to brute yourself through it. Like for example, Maelstrom+Meteor Shower+Orb Spikes.
Regardless, the topic of this thread is where the game should be balanced. We don't care if Balls will get popular again, we want a balance. Now quit your back and forth bitching and get to the point: NR screws everyhting up because over than half the useful skills are enchants and hexes and that increase in cast time makes most of them crap. I think that's a nice summary of the situation.
Also nerf Zealot's Fire or at least make it something that doesn't spell out ''ABUSE ME''. Seriously I farmed 1.2 million XP in under a week and without an insane time investment. If that's not an inbalance then I don't know what is.
Other skills to review: Fertile affecting itself, Elemental Attunements stacking when NR gets fixed, enchantment removal and a proper counter to hex stacking other than a 15 energy skill or Contemplation of Purity. Also check out skills like Rust, Searing Heat, Ice Spear, Dwarven Battle Stance, I Will Avenge You, I Will Survive and the list goes on and on and on and on. 450 skills in the game and over 200 are just bad without NR. GG, now let's get back on topic
Regardless, the topic of this thread is where the game should be balanced. We don't care if Balls will get popular again, we want a balance. Now quit your back and forth bitching and get to the point: NR screws everyhting up because over than half the useful skills are enchants and hexes and that increase in cast time makes most of them crap. I think that's a nice summary of the situation.
Also nerf Zealot's Fire or at least make it something that doesn't spell out ''ABUSE ME''. Seriously I farmed 1.2 million XP in under a week and without an insane time investment. If that's not an inbalance then I don't know what is.
Other skills to review: Fertile affecting itself, Elemental Attunements stacking when NR gets fixed, enchantment removal and a proper counter to hex stacking other than a 15 energy skill or Contemplation of Purity. Also check out skills like Rust, Searing Heat, Ice Spear, Dwarven Battle Stance, I Will Avenge You, I Will Survive and the list goes on and on and on and on. 450 skills in the game and over 200 are just bad without NR. GG, now let's get back on topic
coleslawdressin
Now that that is over with, what do you think about my new and improved Nature's Renewal? Keep in mind other skills need changes and you are free to add your own new and improved version of them. Bantering about what works under the current system gets us nowhere. It has been discussed many times and what is best is proven by who is winning the HOH.
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Nature's Renewal: Elite Nature Ritual - Create a level 1-8 Spirit. For creatures within range, all "Enchantments" and "Hexes" are removed after 90-35 seconds. For 30-126 seconds, Enchantments and Hexes take 60-120% longer to cast. This Spirit dies after 90 -126 seconds.
5 mana - 5 cast time - 90 second recharge
And the table for all possible skill levels:
01 - After 90 seconds, destroy 1 enchantment - cast time slowed by 60%
02 - After 85 seconds, destroy 1 enchantment - cast time slowed by 65%
03 - After 80 seconds, destroy 1 enchantment - cast time slowed by 70%
04 - After 75 seconds, destroy 1 enchantment - cast time slowed by 75%
05 - After 70 seconds, destroy 2 enchantments - cast time slowed by 80%
06 - After 65 seconds, destroy 2 enchantments - cast time slowed by 85%
07 - After 60 seconds, destroy 2 enchantments - cast time slowed by 90%
08 - After 55 seconds, destroy 2 enchantments - cast time slowed by 95%
09 - After 50 seconds, destroy 3 enchantments - cast time slowed by 100%
10 - After 45 seconds, destroy 3 enchantments - cast time slowed by 105%
11 - After 40 seconds, destroy 3 enchantments - cast time slowed by 110%
12 - After 35 seconds, destroy 3 enchantments - cast time slowed by 120%
13 - After 30 seconds, destroy 4 enchantments - cast time slowed by 122%
14 - After 25 seconds, destroy 4 enchantments - cast time slowed by 125%
15 - After 20 seconds, destroy 4 enchantments - cast time slowed by 127%
16 - After 15 seconds, destroy 4 enchantments - cast time slowed by 130%
17 - After 10 seconds, destroy 5 enchantments - cast time slowed by 132%
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Nature's Renewal: Elite Nature Ritual - Create a level 1-8 Spirit. For creatures within range, all "Enchantments" and "Hexes" are removed after 90-35 seconds. For 30-126 seconds, Enchantments and Hexes take 60-120% longer to cast. This Spirit dies after 90 -126 seconds.
5 mana - 5 cast time - 90 second recharge
And the table for all possible skill levels:
01 - After 90 seconds, destroy 1 enchantment - cast time slowed by 60%
02 - After 85 seconds, destroy 1 enchantment - cast time slowed by 65%
03 - After 80 seconds, destroy 1 enchantment - cast time slowed by 70%
04 - After 75 seconds, destroy 1 enchantment - cast time slowed by 75%
05 - After 70 seconds, destroy 2 enchantments - cast time slowed by 80%
06 - After 65 seconds, destroy 2 enchantments - cast time slowed by 85%
07 - After 60 seconds, destroy 2 enchantments - cast time slowed by 90%
08 - After 55 seconds, destroy 2 enchantments - cast time slowed by 95%
09 - After 50 seconds, destroy 3 enchantments - cast time slowed by 100%
10 - After 45 seconds, destroy 3 enchantments - cast time slowed by 105%
11 - After 40 seconds, destroy 3 enchantments - cast time slowed by 110%
12 - After 35 seconds, destroy 3 enchantments - cast time slowed by 120%
13 - After 30 seconds, destroy 4 enchantments - cast time slowed by 122%
14 - After 25 seconds, destroy 4 enchantments - cast time slowed by 125%
15 - After 20 seconds, destroy 4 enchantments - cast time slowed by 127%
16 - After 15 seconds, destroy 4 enchantments - cast time slowed by 130%
17 - After 10 seconds, destroy 5 enchantments - cast time slowed by 132%
Phades
Quote:
Originally Posted by coleslawdressin
Phades, I guess you mean something with the skill recharging as son as the 5 second cast time starts? I haven't used spirits in quite some time so I haven't paid attention. I was talking about using those 2 warrior skills to counter the spirit spammer, or would just need Wild Blow if it was made easily interruptable. If the developers want to balance all skills better they will need to review a lot of skills, underpowered ones too. I read most of the thread since it was started.. I guess I can read it again.. I guess by refresh times you mean times for skills to recharge? What specific changes do you suggest though?
I wonder if someone could get Gaile or one of the designers to comment on this thread. |
I also anticipate that damage would probably become too difficult to counter with the lack of readily renewable defenses from a single class source, so that there would most likely require some skills, similar to stances wards and shouts, to filter down through the other classes to help make up the difference and give more variety. The problem with creating more similar skills to stances and shouts, is that they create more of an individual centered team scheme, instead of building on each other in the current format through synergy and redundancy.
I have mentioned such thoughts earlier in the thread as general commentary.
*Your chart needs to follow the natural progression of the duration of the skill. Also, most of the nature rituals could stand to be toned back in duration so they dont exceede the innate refresh time allowing for redundancy by default.
Orochim4ru
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It's bad since you lost ALL your energy and the monk you targeted will just click on Remove Hex or Inspired Hex. |
Ether lord is, once again, not a skill used to recharge energy. Its used to stop a character from doing his job. You can say "i'll remove hex on your shame" but it doesn't change the fact that while you're doing that you aren't doing your job. More to the point, remove hex has a cast time of 2 seconds, which screams "power leak me!". I'll admit, however, that inspired hex is very powerful, even at low inspiration. Having a cost of 5 and a cast time of 1 makes it very useful in an environment wherein NR doesn't have so much clout.
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it's even worse to be caught looking like a dumbass spouting Ether Lord as true Energy denial |
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First off Arcane Echoing Rend. Hmmm 15 energy, 10 energy, 10 energy. 45 energy and a grand 8 second cast time |
Same flaw with chillblains math, although the offhand would be needed, and it would wreck your energy, as i said here
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If you can muster 65 energy to do it... |
now, more to the point, you said
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For the love of god, please stop saying Chillblains is good and if NR gets fixed enchant removal is going to be ok. It's not, 25 energy to remove an unrelaible amount of enchantments is not good. |
I think we should lower rend's health hit. Its.. just a wee bit much for its ability. maybe if it was a sacrifice 20% ability, it would work out better, since it would have better synergy with other necro skills. The progression for amount of enchants rended and level is fine as is.
Shatter enchant is fine as is as well, as in inspired enchant.
The entire purpose to my arguments, which i've stated multiple times isn't to say that ether lord+malaise is the "omfg best evar skills woot". Its that healing ball, the ultimate enchant stacking build, can be dealt with under our current environment sans NR by a fairly random build. Obviously post nerf NR is still going to hurt enchants, but I don't want rend or other enchant removal options becoming 5 energy to cast 5 second recharge abilities.
As for the suggested NR changes, i don't think that making NR or spirits easy to interupt would help much. Making them spells, however, might be an option worth looking into. They're obviously magical, and it would open the door to mes interuption, skull cracking. This, of course, isn't the only change that would have to be implemented, but it might be something worth considering that would make spirit spamming in general a bit easier to stop.
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Im of the opinion that if NR is changed that alot of the enchantments refresh times will have to be given a value or given a higher value in order to allow the other forms of enchantment removal to catch up in their current form |
Keure
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orochim4ru
Ether lord is, once again, not a skill used to recharge energy. Its used to stop a character from doing his job.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Odd Sock
Guess what ? we thought ahead of that and are creating artificial energy on top of our regen.
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Orochim4ru
Wailing on a bond group for no reason isn't a great idea. Also, shutting down the bonder is much more effective with blackout/echo as stated earlier. Tossing out a lord to slow someone down after you've spammed hexes, however, does force the opponents to react, or effectively lose 20 energy. They cast remove hex after 4 seconds? that's still 10 energy out of their pocket for the cost of 5 of mine.
coleslawdressin
Phades: No offense, but I feel that most of your responses are either too cryptic or vague to be much help. A changed NR has a lot of variables, including also the thing about multiple copies. What is your version of a modified NR and XYZ enchantments?
If all a group has to do to continue to win the HOH is camp the dias and put up a healing ball, those skills need to be changed too, even if it is only in pvp.
If all a group has to do to continue to win the HOH is camp the dias and put up a healing ball, those skills need to be changed too, even if it is only in pvp.
Zrave
Decided to comment on this whole healing ball breaking discussion:
First of all, Ether Lord does nothing. This is because:
A) The target that you really want to hit is the bonder, who will be protected with spellbreaker or obsidian flesh.
B) In all the tombsing I have done, the average lifespan of ether lord is 3 seconds before being inspired or smited. This means I lost 3 energy (assuming 12 inspiration, which is not your case), and you got 3 energy back for at least a 4 energy deficit.
Second, Wither and Malaise do nothing. This is because:
A) Again, the target you really want to hit is the bonder, but you can't
B) Focus switch, they drop. This might be harmful on the bonder since he'd lose some of his bonds as well. Too bad.
So obviously, the energy degen you want to use is Panic. It hits in an aoe, which due to the constraints of the healing ball, means it will hit at least a few guys. Furthermore, it will splash onto the bonder ignoring his spellbreaker/obsidian flesh. The problem is that the bonder has near infinite energy due to balthazar's spirit, and a few lost pips won't do much. I have screenshots in the HoH maintaining bonds on the entire team and hero, yet my energy was 75/77.
We've been hit with panic several times, and while annoying, it just was not enough to counteract our energy engine. Perhaps it did contribute to some defeats, but wasn't the main factor by any means.
The obvious way to defeat the healing ball is to sidestep life bond entirely and attack only with spells. A strong air spike with perfectly timed rends and perhaps disruption on our ritual spammer will get kills, *unless* it is a 2x1 in the HoH and the other team is focus firing the ghostly hero, giving you 5 triggers of Healing Seed a second. And hence the difficulty of breaking a healing ball, the fact that the other team, rather than help you, more often hurts your chances of winning. Sometimes we'd face two healing ball busters and lose, but it was rare enough, at least back then. Is this what we want the environment to be though?
I think that back then, the main thing holding the healing ball back was the relic map. That, and having to cap the altar. I'll also add that when Balthazar's Aura was bugged and you could stack several copies of it, it was insufficient to bust a healing ball. Sure, that's kinda obvious, but goes on to display why a healing ball is overpowered.
First of all, Ether Lord does nothing. This is because:
A) The target that you really want to hit is the bonder, who will be protected with spellbreaker or obsidian flesh.
B) In all the tombsing I have done, the average lifespan of ether lord is 3 seconds before being inspired or smited. This means I lost 3 energy (assuming 12 inspiration, which is not your case), and you got 3 energy back for at least a 4 energy deficit.
Second, Wither and Malaise do nothing. This is because:
A) Again, the target you really want to hit is the bonder, but you can't
B) Focus switch, they drop. This might be harmful on the bonder since he'd lose some of his bonds as well. Too bad.
So obviously, the energy degen you want to use is Panic. It hits in an aoe, which due to the constraints of the healing ball, means it will hit at least a few guys. Furthermore, it will splash onto the bonder ignoring his spellbreaker/obsidian flesh. The problem is that the bonder has near infinite energy due to balthazar's spirit, and a few lost pips won't do much. I have screenshots in the HoH maintaining bonds on the entire team and hero, yet my energy was 75/77.
We've been hit with panic several times, and while annoying, it just was not enough to counteract our energy engine. Perhaps it did contribute to some defeats, but wasn't the main factor by any means.
The obvious way to defeat the healing ball is to sidestep life bond entirely and attack only with spells. A strong air spike with perfectly timed rends and perhaps disruption on our ritual spammer will get kills, *unless* it is a 2x1 in the HoH and the other team is focus firing the ghostly hero, giving you 5 triggers of Healing Seed a second. And hence the difficulty of breaking a healing ball, the fact that the other team, rather than help you, more often hurts your chances of winning. Sometimes we'd face two healing ball busters and lose, but it was rare enough, at least back then. Is this what we want the environment to be though?
I think that back then, the main thing holding the healing ball back was the relic map. That, and having to cap the altar. I'll also add that when Balthazar's Aura was bugged and you could stack several copies of it, it was insufficient to bust a healing ball. Sure, that's kinda obvious, but goes on to display why a healing ball is overpowered.
wheel
/signed
Xellos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackace
MA beats Poison Arrow out badly. For damage it'll break QS if the target is under an enchantment since it can combine with the same buffs except other Preps, and no other prep gives a higher damage bonus than MA.
Guardian and Aegis effect all arrows except Ignite and maybe CG, so it doesnt really make a difference in Ranger Elite bow attacks. |
Kindle Arrows and Ignite Arrows greatest strength is that it bypasses evades/blocks, while Poison only requires 1 shot to be effective for a limited amount of time and also forces the enemy to waste mana to mend. Their solid DPSes, and together, QS/Kindle or PsnArrow/Kindle can outdamage Melandrus alone under the NR stipulated enchants in general.
Oh and we all know Pikachu has taken halls before =D
Odd Sock
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orochim4ru
I said we should lower the energy cost to 15. So we agree, and yet you're going hostile over nothing. I wouldn't mind seeing the energy cost drop to 15, the recharge going up to 20, and the damage/poison removed
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I still laugh at you debating Ether Lord. It's trash, get over it. Not because you like it or have used it to mediocre effects that it's any good. We all have our little favourites, it just takes someone with balls to grow up and admit that it's not all that great. You won't accomplish anything with that skill and Draining/Taping a target from a well prepared team simply won't do anything.
Orochim4ru
Quote:
We're just tired of hearing your Ether Lord/Rend/Arcane Echo/Chillblains combo that doesnt' work. |
Now, why did i do that? Because every time someone has mentioned that NR needs to be nerfed, they've brought up the fact that they want enchants nerfed as well, or they want enchant removal buffed. In PvE, nerfing enchants might make a lot of builds simply useless, thus making it harder for new people to play without running boring stock builds. Buffing strips might make enchants useless in PvE too, since the enchant rending mobs have been on the rise, and since they travel in large groups. Jade scarabs in the crystal desert, for example, might become retardedly powerful if chillblains is buffed to an absurd extent.
So, in sum, if anet is reading this, i'd enjoy it if they didn't make incredibly radical changes to the hex/enchant domain of abilities.
Odd Sock
You forgot the big thing: no one serious about GW gives a damn about PvE.
Orochim4ru
But if GW is to continue producing expansions and keeping their servers up, they're going to need to have a decent pre-game before you get to the pvp, otherwise people will leave (and they do... lots of people leave during pre-searing and never play again).
Thus balance = community +
Thus balance = community +
Odd Sock
NERF NR
MSecorsky
Quote:
Originally Posted by Odd Sock
NERF NR
|
JoDiamonds
What data is there regarding when people leave the game? How do you know many people leaving during pre-searing and never play again?
Seriously, if you have access to hard data about stuff like that, I'm interested. If it's just that you saw some people once and not later, well, who cares?
Seriously, if you have access to hard data about stuff like that, I'm interested. If it's just that you saw some people once and not later, well, who cares?
Acan Vishnu
Buffing enchantment removals would be fine for PvE for one simple reason; they can remove some of the anti-enchantment monsters just as easily as they added them.
Orochim4ru
true, but that's if they bother to do so, which i personally doubt they'll do. That said, there are limited areas of anti-enchant, but i don't want those areas becoming impossible to have fun in if you're running any enchants.
The first time i heard about GW, i was surfing around on penny arcade, while tycho was heaping huge globs of praise on it. In his posts however, he always mentioned people quitting the game during pre-searing, since as cute as the game is, it doesn't really offer a whole lot during that stage.
Examples? i can't give you a demographic, but i know that my brother quit in pre-searing to play SWG, (he's one of the top jedi in sunrunner), my 3 friends that i started playing the game with all quit early in post-searing, and i joined like 5 guilds in pre-searing, and all of them died due to player inactivity (5 people not logging on for like 2 weeks+ in pretty much each of them). Since at the time i had been playing counter strike and natural selection a lot, i didn't really mind, but i'd still log of for a few hours every 2 or 3 days to do another quest, or to go clear beyond the wall.
So yeah, people do leave in pre-searing, a lot of them do. Maybe i'm just incredibly unlucky, but i can see why. Compared to WoW, the start of GW is lackluster, there's a hugely shoddy economy in pre, and there's a VERY limited amount of stuff to do. I personally HATE having to come to old ascalon after post searing, because i find the place visually repugnant. Does this mean everyone leaves in droves? No. But keeping pve, which is required for entering what i consider the meat of the game, balanced cannot hurt retention.
Since expansions are most likely to be sold only to people who currently play, keeping retention high increases the amount of sales of expansion packs, which is good for us as a community.
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How do you know many people leaving during pre-searing and never play again? Seriously, if you have access to hard data about stuff like that, I'm interested. If it's just that you saw some people once and not later, well, who cares? |
Examples? i can't give you a demographic, but i know that my brother quit in pre-searing to play SWG, (he's one of the top jedi in sunrunner), my 3 friends that i started playing the game with all quit early in post-searing, and i joined like 5 guilds in pre-searing, and all of them died due to player inactivity (5 people not logging on for like 2 weeks+ in pretty much each of them). Since at the time i had been playing counter strike and natural selection a lot, i didn't really mind, but i'd still log of for a few hours every 2 or 3 days to do another quest, or to go clear beyond the wall.
So yeah, people do leave in pre-searing, a lot of them do. Maybe i'm just incredibly unlucky, but i can see why. Compared to WoW, the start of GW is lackluster, there's a hugely shoddy economy in pre, and there's a VERY limited amount of stuff to do. I personally HATE having to come to old ascalon after post searing, because i find the place visually repugnant. Does this mean everyone leaves in droves? No. But keeping pve, which is required for entering what i consider the meat of the game, balanced cannot hurt retention.
Since expansions are most likely to be sold only to people who currently play, keeping retention high increases the amount of sales of expansion packs, which is good for us as a community.
Phades
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orochim4ru
But if GW is to continue producing expansions and keeping their servers up, they're going to need to have a decent pre-game before you get to the pvp, otherwise people will leave (and they do... lots of people leave during pre-searing and never play again).
Thus balance = community + |
The thing you have to understand is that this is not a flavor of the month arguement, but a realization of the foundation for what is accepted within the game has flaws.
Rayea
weeel....i didnt get most of this post, since it is dealing with PvP (which i KNOW i suck at)
*passess round band-aids, anticeptics and pain killers*
now, i did understand that folks are upset about this 'spamming' of the skill in question. you mean when there are more than one of the spirit, yes? ether droped by one side or both?
how about a fix that no mater how many times you cast NR, your team can only have one on the field?
cant remember where i saw this done, but it was like some kind of summon, and if you cast it again, the old one died or faded away and the new one took over.
might be useable, maybe with more fixes.
but then there could only be ONE not many, no matter how many rangers cast NR.
*puts on the red-shirt of Flame Drawing and sits in a bucket of Dry Ice to wait for the inevitable lol*
*passess round band-aids, anticeptics and pain killers*
now, i did understand that folks are upset about this 'spamming' of the skill in question. you mean when there are more than one of the spirit, yes? ether droped by one side or both?
how about a fix that no mater how many times you cast NR, your team can only have one on the field?
cant remember where i saw this done, but it was like some kind of summon, and if you cast it again, the old one died or faded away and the new one took over.
might be useable, maybe with more fixes.
but then there could only be ONE not many, no matter how many rangers cast NR.
*puts on the red-shirt of Flame Drawing and sits in a bucket of Dry Ice to wait for the inevitable lol*
Orochim4ru
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Arguing to do nothing, like you are |
Should PvP become totally unbalanced, hardcore players will leave, should PvE become boring, no new players will get drawn in. I don't see why you're arguing against striking a balance.
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how about a fix that no mater how many times you cast NR, your team can only have one on the field? cant remember where i saw this done, but it was like some kind of summon, and if you cast it again, the old one died or faded away and the new one took over. |
Phades
The problem is it cant be fixed with a bandaid and will just change how its abused. This causes more time to be wasted trying to work around the problem instead of fixing it direcltly.
The pve is the pve, there really isnt anything that is going to change that. What the pve represents to a pvp player can be changed. Adding more pve doesnt do anything in the game setup as the actual geography is about as meaningful as every city location without skills in it. That is part of the reason for the map travel feature within the game. The only point of real interest seems to be just outside of lion's arch in the form of ascalon settlement. There are sprinkles and hints of other things of interest, but they are essentially limited, in large part, to the arena based towns and dragon's lair. The real problem with the pve side being linked is that there is no reason for a pve character to engage in pvp. It does not change that character's pve experience nor does it advance or shape the pve world beyond the pre-searing. That also happens to be the one mission with a glimmer of interesting play options within the pve, but it is still segemented into a remedial arena endurance death match.
Advocating the bandaids is no better than arguing to do nothing, because the problem is still there. Stating that there are other issues elsewhere doesnt help alot, because many of the encounter issues that lead to the overpopulation of anti-enchantment monsters draw from the same pvp imbalances. Also, trying to create misdirection towards where focus should be applied is counter intuitive as many pve redesign and added content solutions have alot more involved work rather than reworking the values on a spread sheet and looking at variable outputs.
The pve is the pve, there really isnt anything that is going to change that. What the pve represents to a pvp player can be changed. Adding more pve doesnt do anything in the game setup as the actual geography is about as meaningful as every city location without skills in it. That is part of the reason for the map travel feature within the game. The only point of real interest seems to be just outside of lion's arch in the form of ascalon settlement. There are sprinkles and hints of other things of interest, but they are essentially limited, in large part, to the arena based towns and dragon's lair. The real problem with the pve side being linked is that there is no reason for a pve character to engage in pvp. It does not change that character's pve experience nor does it advance or shape the pve world beyond the pre-searing. That also happens to be the one mission with a glimmer of interesting play options within the pve, but it is still segemented into a remedial arena endurance death match.
Advocating the bandaids is no better than arguing to do nothing, because the problem is still there. Stating that there are other issues elsewhere doesnt help alot, because many of the encounter issues that lead to the overpopulation of anti-enchantment monsters draw from the same pvp imbalances. Also, trying to create misdirection towards where focus should be applied is counter intuitive as many pve redesign and added content solutions have alot more involved work rather than reworking the values on a spread sheet and looking at variable outputs.