Your more worried about something like Shielding Hands which directly breaks MA apart since it's applied to every individual hit as far as I've seen.
I actually worry not at all about Shielding Hands with an MA build. What is 18 out of every 70-90 damage? It's a band aid on a gashing wound ...
Quote:
The character with the higher rof doesn't automatically result in higher dps for 2 reasons: A QS guy isn't shooting seperate damage packets like a MA guy so the damage comparisons arent straight forward.
Erm ... that makes no sense at all. A hit buffed up by Melandru's Arrows shows up as one value, just like RtW and FW do. This one big value, one "packet" is capped by Protective Spirit.
On the other hand, QS builds do abit less damage, in slightly smaller "packets" stil capped by Protective Spirit. Yet QS builds output those "packets" faster, resulting in more damage per time period.
Even better, if we're talking about QS used with Kindle Arrows as the preparation, the damage from Kindle isn't affected at all, as it's way under the 48 damage cap, and it arrives in a seperate value, seperate "packet" from the main bow damage.
Indeed, when firing at a target under Protective Spirit, there's no better build than a QS Ranger (non-QZ type) with Kindle Arrows as the preparation (and, ironically, Conjure as well, since that too will arrive in a seperate packet, not capped by Protective Spirit).
Quote:
Secondly, you have to give them fair time intervals because QS spammers run out of energy far faster than MA guys. Which is why I said before in the long term after the 9 pips of degen(Zrave says QS=-9 pips) then the already close race between them both starts to shift in favor of MA. The advantage with QS is the short term spike, MA can spike as well as QS but it wont be as fast, but still comparable.
This is only true if you're talking about the Quickening Zephyr style QS builds. The kind that presses the button and fire like a machine gun for 12 seconds then run totally dry.
The QS builds doing the normal + QS sequence don't run out of energy for a very, very long time. You just don't use Judge's Insight if you see a target is under Protective Spirit (easily noticed by seing the very same damage value again and again), saving your energy this way.
Remember, the normal + QS sequence when used with a zealous bow, results in no energy lost. The only thing you're spending energy on is recasting RtW/Kindle (2 energy every 12/24 seconds) and Tiger's Fury every 10-12 seconds (4-5 energy). This hardly taxes the 2 pips of regeneration you have going in the background.
Ofcourse when one has invested 14 into marksmanship, is taking advantage of Favourable Winds and is using a preparation for another +10-20 damage, almost every shot wil be above 50 damage, and therefore be capped by Protective Spirit.
And seing as one is then (thanks to QS) firing much faster than with a Melandru's Arrows build, the QS build is clearly causing more harm to the target by demanding a faster expenditure of energy on healing.
P.S.
My hatt's off to you, Blackace for actually engaging in an intelligent discussion. Such a breath of fresh air after the "Hahahaa, wrong! wrong!!1!" type of replies that filled this thread.
13 Aug 2005 at 01:31 - 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ender Ward
Assuming a 'perfect 35% bow' that any PvP character has access to, the difference between 9 and 14 Marksmanship is the difference between doing 29 and 40 damage per shot.
It looks like you're still focusing on maximum damage in your comparisons, which is misleading because maximum damage is not a faithful representation of your real damage output (you only hit that value about 6% of the time). It's more accurate to calculate the expected damage directly. So let's run the numbers:
Assuming a 15-28 bow, critical hits are about 40 and non-critical hits average 21.5.
Your chance to get a critical hit is (to the best of my knowledge) 12.25% with Marks 9 and 18.5% with Marks 14.
Then your expected damage before damage mods will be:
9 Marks: 23.8
14 Marks: 24.9
Damage modification is 77% for Marks 9 and 107% for Marks 14. Now throw in the 20% customization and 15% damage mod (which are multiplicative, not additive) and you obtain as your expected damage:
Marks 9: 25.3
Marks 14: 36.8
So in this case it looks like there is indeed about an 11 point difference in expected damage.
13 Aug 2005 at 13:00 - 97
Quote:
It might as well not even be there. So I'm not really sure why you brought up Protective Spirit.
What are you talking about? My MA hits for 70 constant, and I'm not realy sure what your point is. I am not going to be soloing a team on my own, as you said in another post. Protective Spirit will be used, Air Spikers are still alright with their enchantments off, OR in an organized team they will cast after NR is plopped.
13 Aug 2005 at 15:24 - 98
I tried out Ender's Build with JI, RtW, FW, and TF. Using a flatbow, you deal a decent amount of damage to casters, but it is virtually useless against warriors. To be honest, I don't think that any of the Ranger skills are good warrior killers.
13 Aug 2005 at 15:39 - 99
11+3 Marks
11+2 Expertise
8+1 Wilderness
3+1 Beast
Debilitating Shot
Distracting Shot
Quick Shot {E}
Tigers Fury
Favorable Winds
Pin Down/Throw Dirt/Natures Renewal (depends on what team needs)
Kindle Arrows
Res Sig
Is the QS build Im currently using. Usually I have my guildie smiter cast JI for me. Sometimes hes not around and I still kill stuff fast. JI just makes it overkill. Was just wondering what other people thought about it, seeing as how we have a QS thread and all  I tried to add in some counters to common issues Ive had, like mass enchants, mass warriors, and dual monk 
13 Aug 2005 at 20:34 - 100
I don't see how Melandru's Arrows (MA) lasts longer than Protective Sprit (PS). On our Monks, PS usually lasts 18 - 23 seconds (I'm sure it's similar for other teams). Melandru's Arrows lasts a maximum of 18 seconds. And ofcourse if a target is consistently under fire, it will keep getting renewed cover by PS from enemy Monks.
The requirement of the bow does not matter, really (and ofcourse all PvP bows are 9 req.). The 11 points difference in damage is from 9 to 14.
Going from 12 to 14 in Wilderness Survival increases MA damage by 2 points, per arrow.
Yes, if you are using Dual Shot (a very good idea in a MA build), you get 2x the benefit from MA. However, you need to account for the fact that you also lose 11 points of damage per arrow, in that Dual Shot. Indeed, at Marksmanship 9, instead of being only 25% weaker, each arrow in the Dual Shot is now a whopping 55% weaker, than if the character's Marksmanship was at 14. You gain twice the benefit of Melandru's, twice the benefit of Favourable Winds, twice the benefit of Judge's Insight armor penetration, but at the same time, you lose 30% damage per arrow because of low Marksmanship.
My point is that this doesn't have to be a choice. One can have strong base arrow damage, in a Dual Shot, and very strong Melandru's Arrows. By keeping Marksmanship at 12-14, and keeping Wilderness Survival at 12 as well. This is not a choice one has to make (investment into Markmanship vs into Wilderness), sacrificing either one is needless.
14 Marksmanship (10 + 1 + 3)
12 Wilderness Survival (9 + 3)
09 Expertise (8 + 1)
09 Beast Mastery (8 + 1)
05 Smiting Prayers
Is hardly impossible to achieve. Do you see what I mean? Why choose one at the expense of another, when you can have both?
I'm sorry if I sounded confrontational when I said you were dodging the question. I meant that you aren't giving me the answer to the question of where are the attribute points spent better, to justify such a drastic reduction in damage?
I'm forced to ask it yet again, though, as I just can't understand the justification for leaving Marksmanship that low.
Usually when I play that MA build, I hit for 60 - 90 damage. And the Guru calculators agree with my experience, as assuming a +24 damage from MA, +6 damage from Favourable Winds and 20% AP from Judge's Insight, one's damage potential at 14 Marksmanship becomes 64 - 87 per arrow.
So it really sucks when all of that damage potential is wasted due to PS capping it at ~48 damage  .
I too am a very big fan of Choking Gas . Our interrupter Rangers make extensive use of it. Though we don't use Quickshot as the elite, in their case.
I'll have to again disagree on the energy efficiency. A QS build doing shot/QS/shot/QS under Tiger's Fury, does not actually have huge energy problems at all. You aren't losing energy on that shot/QS sequence. You gain 1 energy with the normal shot, and you lose 1 energy on the QS (-2 for QS + 1 from Zealous). You end up with 0 energy used. All that remains is 4-5 energy for Tiger's Fury every 10 seconds, and every 12-24 seconds 2 energy for a preparation.
It's quite efficient.
I'm not sure I understand what you wrote about spiking through "DoTs and energy draining". Not getting what you're trying to explain .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mind Wallaby
It looks like you're still focusing on maximum damage in your comparisons, which is misleading because maximum damage is not a faithful representation of your real damage output (you only hit that value about 6% of the time).
[snip]
So in this case it looks like there is indeed about an 11 point difference in expected damage.
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In this particular example I did not need to show the entire damage range. The 30% difference is in play at both the minimum and the maximum damage, and at every point inbetween.
That's the reason your calculations confirm my statement
It goes like this:
At 14 Marksmanship, an "ideal +35% bow" does 21.7-40.51 damage.
At 12 Marksmanship, an "ideal +35% bow" does 20.25-37.8 damage.
At 9 Marksmanship, an "ideal +35% bow" does 15.61-29.15
In my opinion this clearly indicates that one should always strive to have his/her Marksmanship at a minimum of 12.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UberRusty
What are you talking about? My MA hits for 70 constant, and I'm not realy sure what your point is.
Your Melandru's Arrows hits for 70. Protective Spirit on your target caps it at 48 damage (or whatever is 10% of the target's health). Even though PS is an enchant, and activates the damage bonus on Melandrus Arrows, said bonus is rendered irrelevant because of the damage cap.
At the same time, a normal QS + Preparation + Favourable Winds build hits for over 48 damage as well, but is also capped to the very same value as the MA build (which would normally have higher damage per arrow potential).
Both builds, thanks to Protective Spirit, cannot exceed the same damage value (48). However, the QS build fires significantly faster than the MA build. And is therefore able to put more pressure on enemy energy resources.
Is this a better explanation?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sofia Sofia Sofia
I tried out Ender's Build with JI, RtW, FW, and TF. Using a flatbow, you deal a decent amount of damage to casters, but it is virtually useless against warriors. To be honest, I don't think that any of the Ranger skills are good warrior killers.
This is surprising. I hit for 60-80 on stationary casters, 90 or higher on moving ones. Perhaps our definition of "decent" is different.
As for being virtually useless against Warriors, that is also very surprising, as I usually hit in the 45-55 range on non frenzying, stationary Warriors. You'd be hard pressed to find a Ranger or Warrior build that does more damage, at such rate of fire. Even though a Melandru's Arrows build on an enchanted warrior will do more damage per arrow, it won't have the same rate of fire.
But ofcourse killing warriors is far from the goal of the build. Warriors are cleaned up by focus fire when all the (important) casters are dead.
13 Aug 2005 at 22:44 - 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ender Ward
Going from 12 to 14 in Wilderness Survival increases MA damage by 2 points, per arrow.
Yes, if you are using Dual Shot (a very good idea in a MA build), you get 2x the benefit from MA. However, you need to account for the fact that you also lose 11 points of damage per arrow, in that Dual Shot. Indeed, at Marksmanship 9, instead of being only 25% weaker, each arrow in the Dual Shot is now a whopping 55% weaker, than if the character's Marksmanship was at 14. You gain twice the benefit of Melandru's, twice the benefit of Favourable Winds, twice the benefit of Judge's Insight armor penetration, but at the same time, you lose 30% damage per arrow because of low Marksmanship.
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Err, how are you calculating these numbers? The usage of Dual Shot should not change the relative strengths of the two builds. If the ratio is X/Y for one shot it will still be X/Y for Dual Shot assuming the 25% reduction form Dual is applied at the end.
Let's say we're comparing Marks 9 + WS 14 versus Marks 14 + WS 12.
Marks 9 + WS 14: 25.3 expected damage to start with
Judge's Insight gives 20% AP for an extra 23% vs 60AL targets, raising expected damage to 31.1.
Melandru's is added last, flat +26 damage results in 57.1 expected damage.
Marks 12 + WS 12: 36.8 damage
Judges Insight raises this to 45.3
Melandru's adds a flat +24 to give 69.3 expected damage
So we find that the Marks 9 build does about 18% less damage per arrow than the Marks 14 build. Of course it doesn't matter if you use one shot, Dual Shot, or ten shots, the percentage difference will always be 18%.
You'll notice that I added Melandru's damage last. This is how I understand the damage calculations work. Just in case I am wrong though, and Melandru's is applied before JI, here are the numbers with the different order of calculations:
Marks 9 + WS 14: 63.2
Marks 14 + WS 12: 74.9
Which works out to be about a 16% difference decrease from Marks 14 to Marks 9.
That being said, I agree that you shouldn't go below 12 Marks in a Ranger damage build.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ender Ward
In this particular example I did not need to show the entire damage range. The 30% difference is in play at both the minimum and the maximum damage, and at every point inbetween.
That's the reason your calculations confirm my statement
You made two statements:
1) You'd be doing 30% more damage per arrow with Marks 14 than with Marks 9
2) From 1), using maximum damage as a particular value, you'd be losing 11 damage on every hit ("[...]cannot possibly justify giving up 11 points of damage on every hit that build is ever going to make.").
1) is more or less true; you forgot to account for the different probabilities of critical hits but they're close enough to suffice (the real expected difference is about 31.3%).
2) does not follow from 1). You'll only lose 11 points of damage on those hits when 11 happens to equal 30% of the larger value. As a counterexample, if you get unlucky and roll the minimum base damage (15), the difference between Marks 14 and Marks 9 is only about 6 points. If you get a critical hit the difference is almost 20 points.
The coincidence here is that your calculation with maximum damages yielded approximately the same absolute number as my calculation with expected damage. This only happened because of the particular real values for bow damage, not because there was a necessary correspondence between your calculations and mine.
Aaaaanyway I have a feeling this number crunching is losing its interest to most people. I agree with the logical points you made 
13 Aug 2005 at 23:11 - 103
As far as I know, Melandru's Arrows is applied directly to the initial bow damage, and benefits from Judge's Insight.
How am I calculating the Dual Shot numbers? The difference in arrow damage before buffs, between 9 and 14 Marksmanship is 30%. Dual Shot reduces the base arrow damage by another 25% (it does not affect +damage buffs). If additive, the total damage reduction is 55% per base arrow.
I ignored critical hits for the purpose of the comparison, as they (IMO) introduce a dregree of complexity that isn't really relevant to the point being made: that you want your marksmanship way higher than 9 (12 minimum). The 11 point figure was used as an illustrative example. To show the effect of the 30% loss/gain in damage betwen 9 and 14 Marksmanship. It was meant to put a less abstract value on the damage a character would actually be doing.
I wasn't even attempting to cover all disclamers and be 100% accurate in the numbers. But merely attempted to illustrate a point (that you seem to agree with).
When stating that your calculations agree with my statement, I'm stating a fact. You used the a difference of 30% in base bow damage, in your comparison between the 'expected damage' at 9 and 14 Marksmanship.
Note, that I did not state that the difference in damage would be 11 points at every point in the damage range, between the minimum and maximum. I stated that it would be 30%. The direct damage value of 11 points is only relevant to the top range, as you've pointed out.
As I hope you've noted, I stil kept including the disclamer "before buffs", when talking about the 30% damage loss. I kept referring to base bow damage, not wanting to make the impression that overal damage is reduced by 30%. I was already burying myself in disclamers, so can I not be forgiven for not being 100% precise in all aspects of the comparison ?
Now, my statement about losing 30% base arrow damage at every point in the damage range, remains as true as ever, doesn't it? And that was the only point I was trying to make (and ofcourse the point that competition between Marksmanship and Wilderness Survival attribute point allocation isn't necessary).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mind Wallaby
Aaaaanyway I have a feeling this number crunching is losing its interest to most people. I agree with the logical points you made
Fair enough
13 Aug 2005 at 23:13 - 104
Actually I was pretty sure melandru's / RtW added amage directly to the arrow and would therefore recieve the benefit of 20% AP (JI)
14 Aug 2005 at 13:12 - 105
I love how posting the TF + MA +JI combo started a whole new argument.
Anyway, this is my experience with MA/JI combo. The damage is added after all calculations are done (supposing the arrow hits the target). That means the additional damage do not recieve the 20% armor penetration from JI.
14 Aug 2005 at 20:17 - 106
What armor do you recommend using?
Druids gives 3 more energy, but studded leather still gives +5 nrg but on top of that +15 ligthning resistance, which is good against light eles. What do you think?
oh and btw, im gonna use two superior runes (marksmanship and expertise) so that might be something that adds to this decision?
Or perhaps Having everything druid's except for the armor, which can be studded? It will leave you with the most vulnerable area protected against light, while still giving +9 to energy (as opposed to +12 with full druids)... perhaps it will look ugly as hell tho 
What armor set are you using?
15 Aug 2005 at 01:10 - 107
Judge's Insight on a ranger is horrible. 2.75 second cast time(4.75 with NR) that only affects a ranger's rather mediocre physical damage just doesn't work. You might as well attack two or three more times than to cast the JI.
On any Melandru's Ranger 14 Marks makes no sense. Melandru's already accounts for nearly half your damage. 14 marks might make some sense on a Quickshot ranger because your preperation isn't nearly as strong as Melandru's, but you are already required to have 14 Expertise, and running double superior is very touchy unless fertile season is up.
15 Aug 2005 at 02:22 - 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICURADik
Judge's Insight on a ranger is horrible. 2.75 second cast time(4.75 with NR) that only affects a ranger's rather mediocre physical damage just doesn't work. You might as well attack two or three more times than to cast the JI.
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Judge's Insight affects the entire damage from the bow (21.7-40.51 @ 14 Marksmanship), Read The Wind and Favourable Winds. JI armor penetration takes the total damage into account.
It will not affect conjures or preparations like Kindle Arrows, which is why you don't use them.
As for 'Ranger's rather mediocre physical damage' ... let's look at facts, shall we?
With 14 Marksmanship, Favourable Winds and Read The Winds stacked, using an 'ideal +35%' bow, the damage is 37.7-56.51. In comparison, your favourite R/W with a Hammer, using an 'ideal +35%' Hammer @ 12 Hammer Mastery, is doing 25.65-47.25 damage.
Now who attacks faster, a QS Ranger doing normal/QS under Tiger's Fury, or a Hammer R/W under Tiger's Fury? The former, ofcourse. The QS Ranger without JI is sustainable in terms of energy for pretty much forever (with a zealous bow), and has far less counters too.
And I didn't even factor in the 20% armor penetration from JI on the QS Ranger. Otherwise the comparison would be even more lopsided (though sustainability for the QS Ranger will go down).
The numbers speak for themselves.
Quote:
On any Melandru's Ranger 14 Marks makes no sense. Melandru's already accounts for nearly half your damage. 14 marks might make some sense on a Quickshot ranger because your preperation isn't nearly as strong as Melandru's, but you are already required to have 14 Expertise, and running double superior is very touchy unless fertile season is up.
QS costs 2 energy at 13 Expertise. The only reason to pump it to 14 is for Tiger's Fury to cost 4 instead of 5 energy. This however is very far from 'required'.
14 Marksmanship on Melandru's is used because you really have no better place to put those points in (don't 'require' higher than 9 Expertise on a Melandru's build), so might as well go for more damage. Also useful if you're forced to fire on a non-enchanted target. Ofcourse 12 Marksmanship will also do.
14 Marksmanship is needed for Read The Wind to top out at +10 damage. And, if you read the thread, you'd know that you use RtW and not Kindle because RtW benefits from Judge's Insight, while Kindle does not.
Double superior runes on a Ranger is perfectly fine. You're not a caster, and you are low on the priority target list. Hell my rangers get attacked even less often than my warriors (using a flatbow and staying outside of spell range helps).
15 Aug 2005 at 03:10 - 109
Favorable and RtW? You sure about that? Lol...
Edit: How about we add in an average of +12 damage to the warrior(+24 every other attack)... and remove the fictional extra 6 damage from Favorable Winds. Number's don't lie... but yours certainly try.
Since damage is only done in whole numbers, we now have 32-51 damage with the bow and 37-59 damage with the hammer.
15 Aug 2005 at 03:20 - 110
Also...a perfect weapon is NOT 35%. It is 38%. 1.15*1.20=1.38.
15 Aug 2005 at 03:50 - 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackace
hmmm, additive vs multiplicative, oh my.
trolling as usual?
15 Aug 2005 at 04:26 - 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackace
you're one to talk
true1
15 Aug 2005 at 05:16 - 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICURADik
Favorable and RtW? You sure about that? Lol...
remove the fictional extra 6 damage from Favorable Winds.
Forgive me, I'm a little slow. Do you mean that FW never adds +6 or that it won't add +6 if you're also using RtW? Or is it something else entirely? In any case, your damage figures are pretty close to each other for the R and the W, and the R doesn't have to run up to somebody to do it. Obviously W's have their advantages, but that's another subject.
Thanks.
kF
15 Aug 2005 at 05:27 - 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICURADik
Favorable and RtW? You sure about that? Lol...
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What are you asking here exactly?
Quote:
Edit: How about we add in an average of +12 damage to the warrior(+24 every other attack)... and remove the fictional extra 6 damage from Favorable Winds. Number's don't lie... but yours certainly try.
Fictional? This is easily tested. Compare critical hits with Favourable Winds and without. Then test combinations with Read The Wind and Favourable Winds. Fictional my arse.
Next, my numbers are taken directly from the Guru calculators (although in game I'm seing slightly higher ones, usually).
Oh so we're talking about using skills now. Well ... how about we then compare 38-57 damage every 0.8 seconds (shot/QS fires at just under 2 sec) to doing 26-47 damage every 1.17 seconds. Using Irresistible Blow ever other attack for 38-59 damage @ 1.17 seconds attack rate.
Let's say that the +12 damage from Irresistible Blow every other attack (under QZ) makes up for the slightly slower rate of fire on the hammer R/W. And let's forget for a second that QZ being up offers the QS Ranger the option of an unmatched, insane rate of fire ...
This stil doesn't adrees the fact that the Hammer R/W is way more easily countered than the Quickshot R/X.
So, the question becomes:
Do you bring a less easily countered ranged character that has the same DPS, but doesn't have to chase the target (and can use distracting shot to boot) and can fire outside spell range. Or, do you bring a much more easily countered character, that needs to chase his target and is by nature in quite abit more danger?
15 Aug 2005 at 05:54 - 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donnie
Forgive me, I'm a little slow. Do you mean that FW never adds +6 or that it won't add +6 if you're also using RtW? Or is it something else entirely? In any case, your damage figures are pretty close to each other for the R and the W, and the R doesn't have to run up to somebody to do it. Obviously W's have their advantages, but that's another subject.
Thanks.
kF
This is easily testable.
15 Aug 2005 at 06:00 - 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ender Ward
What are you asking here exactly?
Fictional? This is easily tested. Compare critical hits with Favourable Winds and without. Then test combinations with Read The Wind and Favourable Winds. Fictional my arse.
Next, my numbers are taken directly from the Guru calculators (although in game I'm seing slightly higher ones, usually).
Oh so we're talking about using skills now. Well ... how about we then compare 38-57 damage every 0.8 seconds (shot/QS fires at just under 2 sec) to doing 26-47 damage every 1.17 seconds. Using Irresistible Blow ever other attack for 38-59 damage @ 1.17 seconds attack rate.
Let's say that the +12 damage from Irresistible Blow every other attack (under QZ) makes up for the slightly slower rate of fire on the hammer R/W. And let's forget for a second that QZ being up offers the QS Ranger the option of an unmatched, insane rate of fire ...
This stil doesn't adrees the fact that the Hammer R/W is way more easily countered than the Quickshot R/X.
So, the question becomes:
Do you bring a less easily countered ranged character that has the same DPS, but doesn't have to chase the target (and can use distracting shot to boot) and can fire outside spell range. Or, do you bring a much more easily countered character, that needs to chase his target and is by nature in quite abit more danger?
Sry, your wrong. They don't stack.
What is your +12 every other attack coming from? It's +24 every other attack. Which averages to +12 every attack, as I said already.
15 Aug 2005 at 06:12 - 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICURADik
Sry, your wrong. They don't stack.
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Test it. They stack. Wouldn't be using the combination otherwise (actually, strike that, I stil would, the arrow speedup is quite useful on it's own).
Quote:
What is your +12 every other attack coming from? It's +24 every other attack. Which averages to +12 every attack, as I said already.
You're correct. The damage is then definitely very close. Counterability is stil the reason to go with a QS Ranger instead of a Hammer R/W for DPS.
15 Aug 2005 at 06:32 - 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ender Ward
Test it. They stack. Wouldn't be using the combination otherwise (actually, strike that, I stil would, the arrow speedup is quite useful on it's own).
You're correct. The damage is then definitely very close. Counterability is stil the reason to go with a QS Ranger instead of a Hammer R/W for DPS.
Lol. I tested it when the game came out and I tested it an hour ago. They still do not stack. If the damage bonus doesn't stack(as it doesn't) you can almost be asured that the flight time doesnt either.
The great thing about Irresistible Blow is that the normal counters, Wards, Aegis, Guardian, etc. don't work.
Edit: In all seriousness I think there is a place for a damage dealing ranger, thru Melandrus or Quikshot. But what you have described and the incorrect/intentenal biased numbers you use to show it are an absolute farce.
15 Aug 2005 at 07:24 - 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICURADik
Lol. I tested it when the game came out and I tested it an hour ago. They still do not stack. If the damage bonus doesn't stack(as it doesn't) you can almost be asured that the flight time doesnt either.
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Unless there's been a change in the last 3 weeks, they stack.
As for the flight time, you'd have to be blind to not see that they stack. Take a Flatbow, try RtW or FW alone, try them together.
Quote:
The great thing about Irresistible Blow is that the normal counters, Wards, Aegis, Guardian, etc. don't work.
Oh sure, 1 attack every 2-4 seconds is a great use of a character slot on a team of 8 (/sarcasm).
Quote:
Edit: In all seriousness I think there is a place for a damage dealing ranger, thru Melandrus or Quikshot. But what you have described and the incorrect/intentenal biased numbers you use to show it are an absolute farce.
*laugh*. So +-6 damage makes it a farce now huh? Grasping at straws ...
Even appeasing your (incorrect) claim that RtW and Favourable Winds do not stack, and so reducing the stated damage by 6, without Judge's Insight, you stil get:
QS Ranger: 32-51 damage every 0.8 seconds.
VS
Hammer R/W: 38-59 damage every 1.17 seconds.
Now let's consider something else. We're looking for sustainable DPS, right? So we won't be using Judge's Insight. And if not using JI, then there's no reason to use Read The Wind.
In which case we're going to use Kindle Arrows, Favourable Winds and Tiger's Fury.
Lack of RtW means we no longer have to keep Marksmanship at 14. So we can get away with:
Ranger/X
13 Expertise (10 + 3)
09 Beast Mastery (8 + 1)
12 Marksmanship (8 + 4)
11 Wilderness Survival (10 + 1)
Which results in:
26-44 damage (base + FW) + 19 from Kindle Arrows.
Total damage potential in this case, on a 60 AL target, would be 45-63 every 0.8 seconds. Sustainable pretty much forever.
And again, far less easily countered than a Hammer R/W.
15 Aug 2005 at 11:47 - 122
And far more adaptable and dealing far better damage. Its funny to watch the argument from the other thread creep into this one.
15 Aug 2005 at 14:38 - 123
Hehe, I like how you try to squeeze out of RtW. It has never stacked. You are full of it.
Edit: This is a bit nitpicky, but going 10/8/8/10 makes no sense. 9/8/9/10 and 10/8/9/9 give you two free attribute points.
15 Aug 2005 at 15:40 - 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICURADik
Hehe, I like how you try to squeeze out of RtW. It has never stacked. You are full of it.
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*deep sigh*
You wanted sustainable DPS? I gave you a build that does it far better than your hammer R/W. The only reason I use Read The Winds is because it benefits from Judge's Insight. If I don't use JI, I don't need RtW, and will use Kindle instead. This can't be too difficult a concept to comprehend ...
It has nothing to do with your claim that RtW and FW don't stack.
As for me being full of it, look who's talking. Don't like the inconvinient argument presented, so we're gonna attack the person making it, that how it works? Too bad it ain't working. 'Cause the numbers speak for themselves.
Quote:
Edit: This is a bit nitpicky, but going 10/8/8/10 makes no sense. 9/8/9/10 and 10/8/9/9 give you two free attribute points.
*rolls eyes*
Which you can't use anywhere, so who gives a damn?
Nitpicking a build for 2 unused attribute points. Man you're really reaching now ...
Finally, my point is made. QS R/X with 12 Marksmaship, Kindle Arrows and Favourable Winds does far better for sustained DPS than a hammer using R/W. I'm done now.
15 Aug 2005 at 16:20 - 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ender Ward
This can't be too difficult a concept to comprehend ...
I know. Often seems like what is said goes in one ear and out the other.
btw for my build I reduce BM to give only 8 sec TF so I can get 14 expertise. Thats cus in my guild the QS ranger(s) are usually responsible for debilitating shot on enemy monks too. Might as well take an extra energy for every TF and Debil.
I have always been hesitant to use 2 sup runes... I realize that with fertile down it doesnt hurt that much, so 2 sups in tombs is fine especially becuase it is unlikely that they will target /persecute you cus there are 8 targets and your a ranger. But in arenas Im a little hesitant... I think Im gonna try it BUT since I have an empty skill slot I think I want to use it for something defensive... not Unguent of course but maybe Dirt or somethin...
Currently its
Debil, Distract, QS, TF, Fav Winds, Kindle, Res Sig...got space for one more...besides Dirt or Whirling D I cant think of anything I particularly would want, ideas?
15 Aug 2005 at 16:35 - 126
RtW and Favorable don't stack. Judge's Insight makes no sense on any Ranger build. Understanding how to maximize attribute points is a large point of the game. Sorry for trying to enlighten you.
Keep on using your JI/RTW/FW Build.
15 Aug 2005 at 17:31 - 127
First of all, thanks for this thread, it was VERY interessant.
I just wanted to give you my impressions on the builds you posted here.
I tested the JI/RtW/QS/FW build, and all I can say is... It sucks. :s (no flame intended...)
All you do is casting JI/RtW again and again. And Protective spirit owns you. (not talking of Nature's Renewal...)
Then I tested a simple QS/Kindle/FW build with a friend in team arena (we ran two of these rangers and two monks), and it's far better.
1st : Protective spirit isn't a problem.
2nd : Kindle lasts 24 seconds !! You lose 2s every 24s, contrary to RtW/JI which makes you lose 4s every...12s :s
3rd : it allows you to bring Troll onguent and maybe a trap (for Arenas at least) since you have a fairly high lvl in WS.
Definitly an excellent build, I think we'll give it a try in GvG. Thanks again.
15 Aug 2005 at 20:15 - 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syno Nym
All you do is casting JI/RtW again and again. And Protective spirit owns you. (not talking of Nature's Renewal...)
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The buils is meant to spike a target. It's meant to be used with coordinated fire from multiple rangers, who kill said target within a few seconds (2-4 arrows). It also shines with Orders.
You need ways to remove Protective Spirit, as with any other spike damage, or your damage potential is wasted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syno Nym
Then I tested a simple QS/Kindle/FW build with a friend in team arena (we ran two of these rangers and two monks), and it's far better.
If you want sustained, energy efficient DPS, this is the build, yes. But it doesn't do very well at spike damage. This is the build to use if you cannot reliably remove Protective Spirit. Also, this build kinda gets owned by Shielding Hands (unlike the JI build).
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICURADik
Judge's Insight makes no sense on any Ranger build.
The JI build is proven. I'm sorry that usage of JI insight on a Ranger is abit too complex for ya. That's alright, we all have our failings ...
Quote:
Understanding how to maximize attribute points is a large point of the game. Sorry for trying to enlighten you.
*smiles*
Yes, having 4 left over attribute points vs 2 left over attribute points, that cannot be spent anywhere, is a travesty!
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Keep on using your JI/RTW/FW Build.
Keep trolling.
Oh and since you've begun grasping at straws a few posts ago, I'll assume you've conceded the rest of the points.
/done.
15 Aug 2005 at 20:38 - 129
Some people just can't admit they are wrong... its so pathetic.
RtW does not stack with Favorable Winds. Even if it did stack, this damage is not affected by Judge's Insight. It's a completely useless build.
15 Aug 2005 at 20:55 - 130
Instead of just saying "yes it works" or "no it doesn't," wouldn't it be easier to settle this by taking photos of arcs of arrows fired with a flatbow while under the effects of rtw, fw, and both?
15 Aug 2005 at 21:04 - 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by loc87
Instead of just saying "yes it works" or "no it doesn't," wouldn't it be easier to settle this by taking photos of arcs of arrows fired with a flatbow while under the effects of rtw, fw, and both?
I'm not talking about the arc. Flight time is already a non issue with Favorable Winds Up. The damage is what does not stack.
15 Aug 2005 at 22:08 - 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ender Ward
The JI build is proven. I'm sorry that usage of JI insight on a Ranger is abit too complex for ya. That's alright, we all have our failings ...
Proved against Noobs in Random Arena?
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