LMM's quickshot build
mikey
Quote:
Originally Posted by traversc
|
Originally Posted by traversc
Rofl, further proof you have no clue what you're talking about. 50 per arrow = 80~ per second. GREAT job with the mathemathics.
Ok, lets examine YOUR maths shall we? 1 shot every 2/3 second you say?
A normal quick shot has a refire rate of 1 second (with a short and flatbow). So normal fire rate is 1 shot per second agreed? Now your 1 shot every 2/3 equates to 1.5 shots per second under TF. So a 33% increase of attack speed actually got you a 50% increase in speed? Before criticising other people's maths, make sure yours is right. For the benefit of everyone else here, I'll post how to obtain the real attack speeds. A shortbow fires once per 2 seconds. With a 33% increase of speed, that means you fire 1.33 shots per 2 seconds, not 1 shot per 1.33 seconds. So 1.33 per 2 = 1 shot per 1.5 seconds. Under QuickShot, your shortbow fires 1 shot per second, which is 1.33 per second under TF. That becomes 1 shot per 0.75 seconds under QZ and TF. Shortbow + TF = 1 shot per 1.5 seconds Shortbow + TF + QZ = 1 shot per 0.75 seconds I can confirm that multiplying the refire rate by 2/3 is completely inaccurate by the example at the top. 1.5 shots per second vs 1 shot per second is NOT an increase of 33%. So when calculating increase of speed, you find out the weapon's "1 shot per x seconds", under a +33% attack speed this becomes "1.33 shots per x seconds". I hope this helps for better calculation of DPS  .EDIT: ICURADik why do you believe that RTW and FW do not stack? They are completely different skills and as far as the game mechanics go, different skills do stack, same ones do not. Unless it is a flaw in the game design like Bloodstained Boots which have no effect on any skills in the game (info from Charles Ensign in Q&A forum). Mind Wallaby
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey
Now your 1 shot every 2/3 equates to 1.5 shots per second under TF. So a 33% increase of attack speed actually got you a 50% increase in speed? Before criticising other people's maths, make sure yours is right.
Actually traversc is correct because the Tiger's Fury description (and presumably Frenzy and Flurry) is wrong. The skill increases your speed by 50%, not 33%. I consistently time TF + shorbow at 1.333s (+- 0.033s) between shots, not 1.5s as you would expect if the skill description were correct.
mikey
Well my maths is right and that is all that matters
. Are you 100% sure its 50% and the description is wrong? There can only be one person to settle this dispute, Charles Ensign .That's a pretty big oversight by ANet to have the labelled speed increase totally wrong. While others may be correct in saying 1 shot per 1.33, it was based on false calculations and they were only correct through pure luck... edit: Also don't forget human reaction time is on average ~250ms, which could easily be changing the results (I'm assuming you used a stopwatch?). Mind Wallaby
Yeah, your math was on the spot. I timed TF + shortbow by recording a video with Fraps and stepping through frame by frame. I recorded at 30 FPS, hence the +- 0.033s bit.
By the way, if you're the same mikey who posts in the guild-hall.net forums, your Quick Shot thread inspired me to try the skill in the first place. So thanks 
ICURADik
I guess I'm still the only one that has actually tested RtW, and no, it doesn't stack. The nature of the buffs are very similar so it is conceivable how they get treated as the same buff by the game and therefore do not stack.
I think alot of those 1.33 numbesr were concluded thru testing. Not luck. ICURADik
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackace
how long are you guys going to argue over this
troll /ban
mikey
Well I can't argue with that testing
, it is very thorough I must admit. That means Tiger's Fury and all other increase attack speed descriptions are incorrect. Something has gone wrong on ANet's side, with either calculations (they did it wrong too?) or with the skill description (should be 50% not 33%). I think this will need to be presented to the attention of the devs...And yeah I am mikey from TGH forums, I actually tried a Quick Shot build in tombs (I revived the thread a while back), and it proved rather successful. Problems that arose were... Fertile Season, that was mainly it, but if one were to try it out now you would face "Shields Up!" or Aegis or other forms of evasion/blocking/damage-reduction. I also concluded that energy was not a big problem, unless you faced consistent enchantments and stances/shouts which made our arrows miss. An arrow which misses does not get that 1 precious energy back from zealous. With 3-4 Quick Shot Rangers, your target will fall very fast, you will need no more than 4-5 arrows each and an increase of attack speed stance is not required. In the 4 seconds it takes to get a Healing Seed up, the target was usually already dead, if for some reason the target was still alive, we'd have to change. QS has a net cost of 2 energy if your arrow strikes, combine that with regen and you can last for quite a while, especially if you have breaks in between. The benefit of having several QS Rangers is evident with energy management. A single QS ranger won't go very far in tombs, with 2-4 they are powerful and can essentially 'spike' people. The more QS Rangers you have the more energy efficient you are, you should also have a Frozen Soil or two down to keep your targets dead. You should be able to decimate an enemy team in no time. However, you will only destroy teams who aren't ready for a volley of arrows, which are becoming less and less common as Ranger builds become even more popular. Quick Shot Rangers are basically Air Ele spikers which can bypass Protective Spirit and have better armour. But Quick Shot Rangers are very easy to disable, they are the same as smiters, spamming a single skill. Diversion, Distracting Shot, the warrior 20sec interupt, Signet of Humility, blindness, empathy, spirit shackles, spirit of failure, price of failure and the list goes on. The most deadly would have to be diversion, the interupts, and spirit shackles. The damage potential is huge, but the counters list only keeps growing .And if you want to beef up your damage more, here are some skills I considered using. Order of Pain/Vampire, Judge's Insight and Winnowing (that 4dmg helps when you are spamming it). Single target spells like Weaken Armour and Barbs would only be useful for toppling Ghostly Heroes off the altar. And ICURADik, this was the first time on any board I've seen it to be concluded as 1 shot per 1.33 through proper testing, and I've been on GW boards since E34E. So either you are right and I missed all the threads which had the info, or there are many out there like me who calculated it the wrong way. Yep that's right, I use to work it out the wrong way, until I realised that 1.5 shots per second is not 33% faster than 1 shot per second (during my Quick Shot obsession) and worked out the proper maths way. Syno Nym
Hmm good point Mickey, I forgot that Signet of humility is quite a pain in the *** for this build... Distracting shot on the Signet could resolve the problem though ^^
AtomicMew
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mind Wallaby
Actually traversc is correct because the Tiger's Fury description (and presumably Frenzy and Flurry) is wrong. The skill increases your speed by 50%, not 33%. I consistently time TF + shorbow at 1.333s (+- 0.033s) between shots, not 1.5s as you would expect if the skill description were correct.
Yeah, I realized the description was wrong. Mikey, I based the .66 RoF off of tests from gwonline ranger forum. And basically, empirical testing is the only way to go. There are MANY many discrepancies between what one might think intuitively, and what actually happens.
Anyway, the point I was trying to make in my post is that the damage is not too far off: given about +14 or so dmg from kindle instead of RtW and hornbow's innate 10% penetration (which the JI build does not get). Which is true. I still maintain that QZ/kindle is the way to go. ICURADik
I would use Ignite, so if you have a second QS ranger he can bring winnowing instead of favorable and it will still affect your arrows.
Ender Ward
Quote:
Originally Posted by traversc
hornbow's innate 10% penetration (which the JI build does not get).
Pages back me and another poster talked about the pros and cons of using a Horn Bow in the Judge's Insight build instead of a Flatbow. We talked about what was more valuable when doing shot/QS, the higher speed on the Flatbow or the innate armor penetration of the Horn Bow (that stacks for 30% total with JI).
Result was that it's about even, and is more about personal preference than anything else. So ofcourse that innate 10% AP is available to the JI build, by simply switching to a horn bow and taking a slight hit to one's rate of fire. For pure, sustained DPS, Kindle and FW is the way to go, yes. Ofcourse I would stil use a Flatbow, unless operating under Quickening Zephyr in 'burst' mode (when bow speed matters not). So good to have the ability to switch weapons .
AtomicMew
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ender Ward
Pages back me and another poster talked about the pros and cons of using a Horn Bow in the Judge's Insight build instead of a Flatbow. We talked about what was more valuable when doing shot/QS, the higher speed on the Flatbow or the innate armor penetration of the Horn Bow (that stacks for 30% total with JI).
Result was that it's about even, and is more about personal preference than anything else. So ofcourse that innate 10% AP is available to the JI build, by simply switching to a horn bow and taking a slight hit to one's rate of fire. For pure, sustained DPS, Kindle and FW is the way to go, yes. Ofcourse I would stil use a Flatbow, unless operating under Quickening Zephyr in 'burst' mode (when bow speed matters not). So good to have the ability to switch weapons .
The attack speed with QZ is independent of bow type. The JI build doesn't use QZ, and therefore has to use the fast RoF bow (flat or short). QZ + kindle does not.
mikey
It has been cleared up in the Q&A forum that it is in fact a 50% increase in attack speed not 33%. The problem is ANet calculates it as -33% refire rate which is where all the problems arose.
I'll be emailing GW Support about this... to change the wording on the skill description. Ender Ward
Quote:
Originally Posted by traversc
The attack speed with QZ is independent of bow type. The JI build doesn't use QZ, and therefore has to use the fast RoF bow (flat or short). QZ + kindle does not.
Back then we weren't talking about a QZ build, I specifically pointed that out in my post. We were talking about the shot/QS way of using Quickshot and about the JI build. One doesn't have to use a fast rate of fire bow, you can do shot/QS with the Horn Bow as well. You trade rate of fire for more damage. Again something I pointed out in my post.
If you're using QS under QZ then ofcourse you'd always be using a Horn Bow, that's quite obvious. But again, nothing prevents the JI build from utilising a Horn Bow.
AtomicMew
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ender Ward
Back then we weren't talking about a QZ build, I specifically pointed that out in my post. We were talking about the shot/QS way of using Quickshot and about the JI build. One doesn't have to use a fast rate of fire bow, you can do shot/QS with the Horn Bow as well. You trade rate of fire for more damage. Again something I pointed out in my post.
If you're using QS under QZ then ofcourse you'd always be using a Horn Bow, that's quite obvious. But again, nothing prevents the JI build from utilising a Horn Bow. Exactly, which is why a QS build utilizing QZ is superior. Ender Ward
Quote:
Originally Posted by traversc
Exactly, which is why a QS build utilizing QZ is superior.
Not necessarily.
Multiple Rangers (4, 5 if you can fight with 2 monks) using this build coordinating on the same target usually kill it in 2 arrows (from each Ranger), before Prot Spirit/S-Hands come up. Make sure NR is down first (if you failed to kill the target before Prot Spirit/S-hands come up, you want some extra time to kill it before Healing Seed is dropped). Buff them with an Orders Necro. Before orders are up, hit a decoy target. When up, switch to the called target. You'll be surprised at the effectiveness. Ofcourse QS Rangers in burst mode under QZ can do this too, but they expend too much energy, and can't keep moving from target to target at the same rate. Lastly, JI builds are better against warrior heavy teams. Coordinated fire on a warrior take him out almost as quickly as a caster, due to conversion to holy damage + armor penetration. And you'll need this, since with that many rangers you'll be very low on melee counters. ICURADik
You gotta be kidding me.
Ender Ward
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICURADik
You gotta be kidding me.
Try it.
Works the same way as the now obsolete Air spike builds used to, only Prot Spirit can't save people due to the rate of fire. Oh yeah, forgot to mention. If Fertile is up, you're gonna have to drop Zephyr, switch to Horn Bows and go into burst mode. No other way to punch through that much HP and + armor.
Neo-LD
Umm yea Ill vouch for it, considering its a build my guild uses in tombs frequently
 So much for being unique. 
ICURADik
Good Guilds don't run spikes with 3-4 identical characters anymore... They run balanced builds a with a mix of skills. They capitalize on your lack of diversity, in this case making heavy use of Aegis, Shields Up, Shieling Hands, and Healing Seed to reduce your spike to almost nothing.
Neo-LD
While balance is good, teams made up a large contingent of nearly identical characters still have their place (indeed, look at the spirit group) The reason they are sucessful is because they are so similar, they can capitalize on each others strengths, andhave only 1 or 2 collective weaknesses.
For example, a ranger group capitalizes on its collective strngth with favorable winds for bonus damage, and uses quickening zephyr and natures renewal because the entire group is numb to it. They are all powered up by the same stuff, so it is easy to lay fav winds or get an orders necro to power up your entire party- an orders necro woud not be so effective if there was only one ranger and a bunch of eles... ALso, if everyone is the same, you have only one collective weakness. This makes it very easy to plan to deal with your expected counter. For example, rangers normally lose to teams that have enchantments and hexes flying everywhere.- their damage isnt enough to punch through. But with a couple NR spammers, the weakness of every member in the group is solved at once. However, while the specialized group can stack things against their collective weakness, no team can afford to stack as many things to take advantage of it. This is because if you waste so many characters and skill slots planning to exploit the weakness of a ranger group, you are quite dead against any other group. Thus they can only take a moderate amount to counter rangers, a moderate amount to counter warriors, moderate to counter eles, etc. Now persoannly I love balanced groups, I think its the way the game was meant to be played. But theme groups are fun to play sometimes.
AtomicMew
Quote:
Ofcourse QS Rangers in burst mode under QZ can do this too, but they expend too much energy, and can't keep moving from target to target at the same rate.
I disagree. We agreed that QS+QZ can sustain about 12 seconds of continuous fire. You also said somewhere that it takes about 4~ seconds for a coordinated team to take down a target. So QS+QZ could potentially take down 3 targets with zero down time. |
In practice though, you're team would probably have a pause between targets. But considering you would have to spend 6 seconds under NR to buff yourself again, a QS+QZ could use that time to recharge energy. mikey
If you don't get drained, I'm pretty sure you can last longer than 12 seconds, with 3-4 Quick Shot Rangers you don't need an attack speed increase.
Let's see how far you can get with 32 energy. Assume Quick Shot costs 2 energy (3-1). At 1 shot per second, you are using 2 energy per second, and regening 2 energy every 3 seconds. In 3 seconds you will spend 6 and regen 2. That's a net loss of 4 energy every 3 seconds, you have 32 energy, so that will take 24 seconds to deplete your energy. In an optimum situation you will fire 24 Quick Shots in 24 seconds.
Neo-LD
Whree as a ranger going Normal -> Quick -> Normal -> Quick, spending 2 energy per shot, will spend 1 and then gain 1 (no QZ) or spend 2 and gain nothing (QZ)
mikey
In tombs you will almost always face a QZ, so factoring it out isn't really an option.
Arathorn5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-LD
|
|
Originally Posted by Neo-LD
1. TF costs 10. Frenzy costs 5. Warriros have little energy.
2. TF needs attribute points. Frenzy doesnt. Warriors deal more damage with their weapon and strength pumped up. 3. TF has no defensive penelty. Frenzy causes you to take double damage. But that doesnt matter because: 1. There is a good chance they wont notice. 2. If they do, they must lose all their monk targets to switch to you in order to try to gank you. 3. You can hit sprint to cancel frenzy, in which case their attempt to gank you has been brutally denied, and they have wasted a huge amount of time for maybe 2 hits before you switched. Not to mention it gave your monks a breather. 4. Even if you stay in frenzy, as ensign posted in his numbers, you are only taking a small amount of extra damage compared to what a typical caster would take. Given this, the fact that frenzy may produce the effect of drawing enemy fire is practically an ADVANTAGE. Honestly, W/R is a VERY sketchy combo for a reason. TF on a war sucks. Really bad. Indisputably bad. TF wars just suck. Period. I would *maybe* rather have a paladin. Change yer mind much? (not that I really care, but you have to admit I BURNED you on this one) UberRusty
Quote:
Change yer mind much? | (not that I really care, but you have to admit I BURNED you on this one) I think it's already been pointed out. Anyway, BURN OMG IMMOLATION. I've been seeing less QS Rangers. It seems like people don't realize how to play QS Rangers without QZ.
Neo-LD
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arathorn5000
Change yer mind much?
(not that I really care, but you have to admit I BURNED you on this one) If you were including context in either of those you would see that frenzy was refering to warriors and TF was refering to bow rangers. For warriors, frenzy > TF For rangers , TF > Frenzy also, the warrior in the quoted eample was nub and didnt have sprint (or just didnt have time to switch, my guildy necro practically insta-killed him.
Arathorn5000
Meh, please explain how frenzy is 10x worse than tigers fury on rangers then. If I'm running a pure ranger build because it requires high expertise, wilderness, and marks, then often times I will go warrior secondary simply for frenzy and/or even "watch yourself!" if I can fit it in. This way, I don't have to sacrifice points in wilderness or marksmanship to get beast mastery high enough to have an effective tigers fury.
Originally Posted by UberRusty
If I'm getting hit, I'm changing to a defensive stance anyway, problem solved. And believe it or not, there are some ranger builds that have energy problems over time, so frenzy helps cut down on energy being spent where it doesn't need to be. Quote: I've been seeing less QS Rangers. It seems like people don't realize how to play QS Rangers without QZ.
Yeah, though I've been seeing some Koreans teams playing them again. My guild is dabbling in QS teams now, and that's why I'm reading this thead, lots of good stuff in here. It also inspired me to try out a melandru's arrows build in CA, a skill I never gave much credit.
Natezor
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-LD
If you were including context in either of those you would see that frenzy was refering to warriors and TF was refering to bow rangers.
For warriors, frenzy > TF For rangers , TF > Frenzy also, the warrior in the quoted eample was nub and didnt have sprint (or just didnt have time to switch, my guildy necro practically insta-killed him. So Bow Rangers get attacked more than Warrior's? 
UberRusty
Quote:
Meh, please explain how frenzy is 10x worse than tigers fury on rangers then.
It is not 10x worse, it's 2x worse. Only when you're not being hit. But I'm one of those guys who like Tiger's Fury better than Frenzy.
|
Neo-LD
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natezor
So Bow Rangers get attacked more than Warrior's?
It has to do with energy costs, warriors cannot afford TF as much as rangers can.
Arathorn5000
Meh, the principles still apply. You're giving up damage because you're placing attribute points in a largely useless pool. Granted, if you're going ele or monk secondary, you can't utilize frenzy, but tigers just becomes more of a burden when you're probably already strapped for attribute points. Ah well, I just don't like the skill
Neo-LD
Well, you only need level 4 for a good TF, and level 7 for a great TF. Anything after that is awesome but not worth the points. For my QS build, I use
10+3 Expert 10+1+1 Marks 9+1 Wild 7+1 Beast (though the +1 doesnt matter :P) rangers should use it, but warriors shouldnt be wasting their energy.
Arathorn5000
Using read the wind, or a wilderness prep? I mean, you could convert 7 points from beast into 2-3 wilderness right? And go /W for frenzy?
ElderAtronach
The one thing I dislike about Frenzy on a quickshotter... once they see you tear one of their casters apart, they *WILL* attack you and try to force you to either run around and evade, or switch target to the warrior that's in your face and try to take him down. Warrior attacking you = no frenzy = less damage output.
If they ignore you and the crazy amounts of damage you can do in a few seconds, they were doomed to lose anyway. Basically TF = a bit sturdier of a QS ranger.
Arathorn5000
but if I'm running 13 expertise, I usually find room for whirling defense, which I'll put on if a warrior is attacking me anyway. Here, I sacrifice the extra attack speed for much better defense, a sacrifice I can stand. However, I can't stand sacrificing extra attribute points for what is in my opinion a subpar version of another skill. To me it seems like either better offense or better defense at all times, rather than the mediocre tigers fury.
ElderAtronach
Quote:
However, I can't stand sacrificing extra attribute points for what is in my opinion a subpar version of another skill. To me it seems like either better offense or better defense at all times, rather than the mediocre tigers fury.
If they've gotten you to use whirling, they've already gimped your damage output and are one step closer to winning. All it takes is 1 warrior on you. If he's a good warrior, he'll know how to target switch fast between attacks, and stance switching between whirling and frenzy is dangerous and unfeasible due to the ~40 second downtime on whirling. | I seriously would never bring whirling to a team-built match. If you're running with 2 experienced/skilled monks like the ones iQ runs, you won't need it anyway. Btw, bow rangers are a much more inviting target than a heavily armored warrior. EDIT: fixed numbers in reference to whirling defense.
Jetai12
is the QS build nerfed? or is it tweaked at all so its not nerfed anymore? oh, and also, in PvE can it solo?
neoflame
There's no longer a point in using QZ with QS, because QZ no longer reduces QS's recharge to 0 - it stays at 1.
|
