Not the skill the guild. They must have won 20-30 HoH's this weekend.
They've gotta be doing something right.
What's up with Natures renewal
asdar
Algren Cole
they're exploiting the fact that 90% of the people playing this game have no idea what they are doing. It's a spirit spamming team and only a select few people have come up with a counter build for spirit spammers....they win because the majority of the community is convinced there is no counter for builds based around NR
salja Wachi
algren is right. i never go into tombs unless i have a counter for SS teams.
and yes i do have a great counter that i have kind of posted here but not in full. suffice it to say it takes a while and you have to have patience but with the right build you can lay waste to SS teams. then all you see in local chat is WTF??? OMG we lost etc
it is a joy to watch
and yes i do have a great counter that i have kind of posted here but not in full. suffice it to say it takes a while and you have to have patience but with the right build you can lay waste to SS teams. then all you see in local chat is WTF??? OMG we lost etc
it is a joy to watch
asdar
You can lay waste to spirit spammers but they won every match they played?
And the reason is that everyone is stupid.
I'm just getting this straight. It's hard for me to understand because I'm too stupid to understand.
And the reason is that everyone is stupid.
I'm just getting this straight. It's hard for me to understand because I'm too stupid to understand.
Algren Cole
ok. Nature Renewal is a spirit that strips enchantments and causes casters to need twice as much time to cast....essentially it removes enchantments from the field of battle. Most of the community views this as overpowered(because the majority of builds are designed around enchantments) and wants to Nerf said skill to hell until it is useless(like the ranger is supposed to be). And instead of spending their time online trying to come up with a valid counter build for the Spirit Spamming teams they sit on forums bitching about how it needs to be nerfed. Spirit Spammer teams continue to dominate the Hall because only a select few players have thought of counter builds for it....and they aren't sharing.
on a side note...yes I agree Nature Renewal *APPEARS* overpowered and I wouldn't give a damn if it was nerfed or not...other than the fact that the community seems to call for a nerf for any build they can't counter with any 8 random skills.
on a side note...yes I agree Nature Renewal *APPEARS* overpowered and I wouldn't give a damn if it was nerfed or not...other than the fact that the community seems to call for a nerf for any build they can't counter with any 8 random skills.
salja Wachi
Quote:
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Originally Posted by asdar
You can lay waste to spirit spammers but they won every match they played?
And the reason is that everyone is stupid. I'm just getting this straight. It's hard for me to understand because I'm too stupid to understand. |
not sure if this was in response to my post but obviously that SS team did not run into any teams with the proper counter. SS teams can be beaten.
asdar
I'm not saying they can't be beaten.
I was posting to try and get some insight into why that particular guild was winning so much.
After reading the responses I got a bit offended. I don't think there's any build that's a simple counter the way there's a counter for other builds. That's because to be a spirit build you only need 1 ranger.
You could be a totally balanced group with 1 ranger to spam natures renewal and Fertile season. The counter to that is to have a build that isn't as affected by nature's renewal and fertile season as much. It's not like you're crushing them no matter what build you have.
I wasn't trying to restart this whole discussion but rather to try to get some insight into what their build was made up of but it's kind of convincing proof that they won over and over and over again this weekend.
I was posting to try and get some insight into why that particular guild was winning so much.
After reading the responses I got a bit offended. I don't think there's any build that's a simple counter the way there's a counter for other builds. That's because to be a spirit build you only need 1 ranger.
You could be a totally balanced group with 1 ranger to spam natures renewal and Fertile season. The counter to that is to have a build that isn't as affected by nature's renewal and fertile season as much. It's not like you're crushing them no matter what build you have.
I wasn't trying to restart this whole discussion but rather to try to get some insight into what their build was made up of but it's kind of convincing proof that they won over and over and over again this weekend.
Algren Cole
1 ranger can't spam Nature Renewal. it has a 5 second cast time and a 60 second recharge time. If you're dropping 1 every minute that's not exactly spamming. Take out the NR then take out the ranger...its not difficult.
Spirit Spammer groups become a problem when you have multiple rangers. 3 rangers could effectively spam Nature Renewal...this is where you need to come up with a build. I've come up with 2 and I've talked to other people that have come up with a couple. I believe Salja has 1. So that's 4 or 5 different counter builds for spirit spammers.
it's not that they are doing something right...it's that all of their opponents are doing something wrong.
Spirit Spammer groups become a problem when you have multiple rangers. 3 rangers could effectively spam Nature Renewal...this is where you need to come up with a build. I've come up with 2 and I've talked to other people that have come up with a couple. I believe Salja has 1. So that's 4 or 5 different counter builds for spirit spammers.
it's not that they are doing something right...it's that all of their opponents are doing something wrong.
salja Wachi
they won over and over because obviously people have not realized they must brings counters to it in tombs if they want to win i already gave half the strategy here bring EoE and start killing spirits. they fall pretty fast. after that you kill the spammer. and keep him dead. the people that play really need to start thinking rather then nerfing everything.
i have never played in a spamming group and never will. but i will ocntinue to try and find counters to every build that comes along. some are more difficult than others but that is what makes the game a fun challenge
i have never played in a spamming group and never will. but i will ocntinue to try and find counters to every build that comes along. some are more difficult than others but that is what makes the game a fun challenge
Schorny
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Algren Cole
essentially it removes enchantments from the field of battle. Most of the community views this as overpowered(because the majority of builds are designed around enchantments) and wants to Nerf said skill to hell until it is useless(like the ranger is supposed to be).
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If a skill needs to be changed, that doesn't mean it's useless afterwards.
Algren Cole
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Schorny
You have no idea what you are talking about. When you look at discussions about NR and why and how it needs to be changes you should conclude that no one wants NR to be useless (only a few retards maybe, but they don't count).]
If a skill needs to be changed, that doesn't mean it's useless afterwards. |
how is NR not balanced? Does it remove enchantments and double casting time for only 1 team and not the other? Maybe it's my lack of intelligence or my thick skull....but last I checked it stripped enchantments on anything in the area...that seems pretty balanced to me. People just don't want to have to deal with it so they'd rather ArenaNet nerfed it to the point that nobody would use it.
Weezer_Blue
lol. At least they're honest.
"Nature's Renewal has won the Hall of Heroes..."
"Nature's Renewal has won the Hall of Heroes..."
noblepaladin
Yeah, NR is not "unbalanced," if you design a build that doesn't rely on enchantments, you have an advantage already because they have people who spam stuff that doesn't hurt you. However, there are a lot of arguments that it reduces variety in the game. And if we want a game to be interesting and replayable, then it needs to be modified so some other skills and strategies can be more usable.
Mithie
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Algren Cole
1 ranger can't spam Nature Renewal. it has a 5 second cast time and a 60 second recharge time. If you're dropping 1 every minute that's not exactly spamming. Take out the NR then take out the ranger...its not difficult.
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salja Wachi
Quote:
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Originally Posted by noblepaladin
Yeah, NR is not "unbalanced," if you design a build that doesn't rely on enchantments, you have an advantage already because they have people who spam stuff that doesn't hurt you. However, there are a lot of arguments that it reduces variety in the game. And if we want a game to be interesting and replayable, then it needs to be modified so some other skills and strategies can be more usable.
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as soon as spirit spamming teams start getting beaten on a regular basis they will stop using them. NO NERFING REQUIRED!!!!
just beat them and taht build will disappear.
that is how you balance the game by pl;aying not by nerfing
Weezer_Blue
It's more griefing than it is good.
For one thing, make spirits spirits... Not solid building blocks for walls and other annoying hinderances.
For one thing, make spirits spirits... Not solid building blocks for walls and other annoying hinderances.
salja Wachi
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Mithie
Hi! My name is Oath Shot.
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oath shot can be used againt you as well as for you
opposing teams can use it too you know :P
Algren Cole
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Mithie
Hi! My name is Oath Shot.
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Hi Oath Shot, welcome to guild wars guru. Around here we bitch and moan about builds we can't beat because it's easier to get the build nerf to hell than it is to figure out a counter. join in!
delfin42
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Algren Cole
Spirit Spammer teams continue to dominate the Hall because only a select few players have thought of counter builds for it....and they aren't sharing.
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Here's a ponderance for you. A Spam team has one or more Rangers crapping out NR and other spirits, then plinking away with Oath Shot. The spirits affect both teams equally.
What are the rest of the Spammer Rangers' teammates doing? How are _their_ builds set up? How do they operate effectively in an Enchantment-and-Hex-free environment?
Because if you set _your team's_ builds up the same way, banking on the likelihood that an opponent will be spamming NR, it works out like this:
Your team: Eight combat-ready members.
Their team: Five or six combat-ready members, plus two or three Rangers not doing much besides crapping spirits.
Shouldn't you have a clear advantage in this situation, particularly if you go after the non-Rangers first? The Spirits are mostly harmless in and of themselves, and if opponents want to have one or more slots dedicated to spamming them instead of being capable of doing much damage, isn't that a good thing if you're prepared for it?
Enemies use NR because it works. Why does it work? Because people persist in bringing builds that rely heavily on Enchantments and Hexes to Tombs. If you know that NR is going to be present, why not bring builds that work well under NR and let the opponent do the work of spamming it, using up a team slot or two in doing so?
And when more teams start doing this and NR spammers start losing regularly, the build's popularity will dwindle and people will move onto the next flavor-of-the-month.
wolfy3455
Quote:
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Originally Posted by salja Wachi
as soon as spirit spamming teams start getting beaten on a regular basis they will stop using them. NO NERFING REQUIRED!!!!
just beat them and taht build will disappear. that is how you balance the game by playing not by nerfing |
Kishin
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Mithie
Hi! My name is Oath Shot.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Algren Cole
1 ranger can't spam Nature Renewal. it has a 5 second cast time and a 60 second recharge time. If you're dropping 1 every minute that's not exactly spamming. Take out the NR then take out the ranger...its not difficult.
Spirit Spammer groups become a problem when you have multiple rangers. 3 rangers could effectively spam Nature Renewal...this is where you need to come up with a build. I've come up with 2 and I've talked to other people that have come up with a couple. I believe Salja has 1. So that's 4 or 5 different counter builds for spirit spammers. it's not that they are doing something right...it's that all of their opponents are doing something wrong. |
Also, taking out the Nature's Renewal is not the issue. Its not the 2x recast that's the problem at all. The real damage is done as soon as the skill drops and it wipes all enchantments. Go ahead, kill it, which is a pain in the arse anyway with Fertile Season up. When the next one hits 10 seconds later, there goes all your enchantments again.
Nature's Renewal instantly counters over 100 of the game's 400+ skills. Instantly. Don't make me repost the list. It spits in the face of build diversity and the metagame, and the only reason its gotten to this point is because all other forms of enchantment removal are trash.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Algren Cole
how is NR not balanced? Does it remove enchantments and double casting time for only 1 team and not the other? Maybe it's my lack of intelligence or my thick skull....but last I checked it stripped enchantments on anything in the area...that seems pretty balanced to me. People just don't want to have to deal with it so they'd rather ArenaNet nerfed it to the point that nobody would use it.
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Weezer_Blue
Quote:
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Originally Posted by wolfy3455
I wouldn't count on that. People still actively run ele spike groups :P
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Silmor
Algren, I requested you post a build to defeat Nature's Renewal spam in another thread, which you unfortunately never followed up upon, despite your incessant claims that people who couldn't counter it were just not thinking very hard and were generally lazy.
Now you blatantly ignore (simple unawareness?) the combination of Nature's Renewal and Oath Shot and imply Nature's Renewal only drops every sixty seconds, which just shows you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. I'd appreciate it if you either did a shred of research on the subjects you keep posting stupid comments on, or to just quit trolling. Thank you.
Now you blatantly ignore (simple unawareness?) the combination of Nature's Renewal and Oath Shot and imply Nature's Renewal only drops every sixty seconds, which just shows you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. I'd appreciate it if you either did a shred of research on the subjects you keep posting stupid comments on, or to just quit trolling. Thank you.
Weezer_Blue
The closest you can get to it is dropping Edge of Extinction and proceeding to AoE a big clump of them. However, with the other team breathing down your neck the entire time, that's not exactly going to work. It's mroe griefing than it is useful, in my oppinion - except on the stupid defensive maps such as the Hall of Heroes and other KotH maps.
Nightsorrow
I think things like Spike Ele groups are just an inherant feature to the game. They're the most obvious single target damage dealers - so naturally there will always be teams that want to take a pure damage team with no support - because chances are you'll either wipe the floor with your opponent, or be the floor-wipe yourself.
As for Natures Renewal (the spell) - I think people need to come up with some better non-enchantment based builds. Fair enough (puts on flame-proof coat) my pvp experience has come from 4v4, NOT HoH - so I don't know how things convert, but I rarely come up with a build that hinges entirely on Enchantments - in fact I rarely run that many enchantments at all - so is this really such an immense problem for people?
As for Natures Renewal (the spell) - I think people need to come up with some better non-enchantment based builds. Fair enough (puts on flame-proof coat) my pvp experience has come from 4v4, NOT HoH - so I don't know how things convert, but I rarely come up with a build that hinges entirely on Enchantments - in fact I rarely run that many enchantments at all - so is this really such an immense problem for people?
Mithie
I have a build that can effectively pwnz0r (is that the word you kids use nowadays?) spirit spammers. I won't tell you what it is (probably because it doesn't exist) but I'll tell you this:
It involves the following skills:
1. Flare
2. Meteor Shower
3. Rodgort's Invocation
4. Otuyg's Cry
and
5. Signet of Capture.
That should be enough for you to figure out the rest of the build. If you can't, well, sorry to say it, but you're a newbie.
Spirit spamming can easily be countered. Hell, I do it all the time. I do it so well, I don't even NEED a full team of 8. I can do it SOLO.
It involves the following skills:
1. Flare
2. Meteor Shower
3. Rodgort's Invocation
4. Otuyg's Cry
and
5. Signet of Capture.
That should be enough for you to figure out the rest of the build. If you can't, well, sorry to say it, but you're a newbie.
Spirit spamming can easily be countered. Hell, I do it all the time. I do it so well, I don't even NEED a full team of 8. I can do it SOLO.
Algren Cole
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Silmor
Algren, I requested you post a build to defeat Nature's Renewal spam in another thread, which you unfortunately never followed up upon, despite your incessant claims that people who couldn't counter it were just not thinking very hard and were generally lazy.
Now you blatantly ignore (simple unawareness?) the combination of Nature's Renewal and Oath Shot and imply Nature's Renewal only drops every sixty seconds, which just shows you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. I'd appreciate it if you either did a shred of research on the subjects you keep posting stupid comments on, or to just quit trolling. Thank you. |
take two steps back...you standing on my nuts hurts. no I will not give you a build...I will however say that Edge of Extinction and Suicide Necro's are a perfect combination for defeating spirit spam teams...you go figure out the build. that's the point of the game.
I honestly don't care if they nerf nature renewal...it wouldn't change my game in the slightest. I do however have a large problem with the fact that everyone calls for a nerf as soon as a creative build is introduced. it happened with spike groups...it happened with the invinci-monk build (which isn't even close to invincible)...it's happening with Nature Renewal...it will happen with every creative build anyone makes. And arenanet will jump all over your nutsacks and nerf it for you....it's sad...
IlikeGW
If people would share their counters there would be zero risk of nerfs in the game, ever.
But the majority play FotM (requiring no thought on their part), an extreme few have the time to make counters (requiring tons of thought on their part) and if the few don't share the counter, assuming it truly works, then they are the ones responsible for an eventual nerf to FotM.
I know, it would suck severely to be one of the few doing the work, discovering new things, and not getting much credit or getting others to do some work of their own... but that's the way of life. People are f'ing lazy and don't try hard.
But the majority play FotM (requiring no thought on their part), an extreme few have the time to make counters (requiring tons of thought on their part) and if the few don't share the counter, assuming it truly works, then they are the ones responsible for an eventual nerf to FotM.
I know, it would suck severely to be one of the few doing the work, discovering new things, and not getting much credit or getting others to do some work of their own... but that's the way of life. People are f'ing lazy and don't try hard.
Zeru
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue
lol. At least they're honest.
"Nature's Renewal has won the Hall of Heroes..." |
Algren Cole, from your posts you obviously have no clue why anyone is saying NR is overpowered. I suggest you go read a few of the topics centered on NR and look why people say it is so cause what you're posting is just completely wrong.
Quote:
| I honestly don't care if they nerf nature renewal...it wouldn't change my game in the slightest. |
Quote:
| I do however have a large problem with the fact that everyone calls for a nerf as soon as a creative build is introduced. it happened with spike groups...it happened with the invinci-monk build (which isn't even close to invincible)...it's happening with Nature Renewal...it will happen with every creative build anyone makes. And arenanet will jump all over your nutsacks and nerf it for you....it's sad... |
As for spirits, meh. Spirit spam teams are easily defeated, the only problem is when you get 1v1s in the hall or a 2v1 with a crappy second team because a good defensively based team will be able to hold the 10 minutes when it's not a well coordinated 16 vs 8. Fertile, Natures, and possibly QZ are the only ones which would have any balance issues. The others are just fluff for the most part.
asdar
This is futile. You don't have a build that counters it. If you knew what you were talking about it would be happening and it's not. Tell us your team and when you'll be on so we can watch for the win. If you win ONE single HoH without spirit spamming then I'll admit you're on to something.
Edge of Extinction is great and about the only affective tool against spirits but to make that counter even mildly affective you have to have a ranger or subclass ranger with some big skill points in beast mastery. Not only that but killing every single spirit doesn't replace your enchantments so you have to play a build that doesn't rely on enchantments or hexes.
The team casting them could go with three ??/ranger subclass rangers with zero skill points in their ranger skills and strip your enchantments and hexes every ten seconds in addition to making any ench or hex take twice as long to cast. It's balanced because both teams suffer the same but it takes no skill and ruins two of the four main lines of attack in the game.
The truth is that people who play ranger main support it because they want the easy road the same way some monks support Balthazars and the 105 builds.
Edge of Extinction is great and about the only affective tool against spirits but to make that counter even mildly affective you have to have a ranger or subclass ranger with some big skill points in beast mastery. Not only that but killing every single spirit doesn't replace your enchantments so you have to play a build that doesn't rely on enchantments or hexes.
The team casting them could go with three ??/ranger subclass rangers with zero skill points in their ranger skills and strip your enchantments and hexes every ten seconds in addition to making any ench or hex take twice as long to cast. It's balanced because both teams suffer the same but it takes no skill and ruins two of the four main lines of attack in the game.
The truth is that people who play ranger main support it because they want the easy road the same way some monks support Balthazars and the 105 builds.
Algren Cole
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zeru
Hahahaha
Algren Cole, from your posts you obviously have no clue why anyone is saying NR is overpowered. I suggest you go read a few of the topics centered on NR and look why people say it is so cause what you're posting is just completely wrong. |
I feel no need to read any of the bullshit posts made about NR...I can counter it therefore I don't care if it's overpowered. and if I can counter it everyone else can as well. I'm not special, im not any better than an average player, im not of extreme intelligence or superior gaming ability....Spirit spam teams are easily countered. I have no aspiration to read the asinine reasons people want this skill nerfed...because it's not grossly overpowered...it's marginally overpowered at best.
Silmor
Algren, there's plenty of people who unjustly call for nerfs. But because of these people you constantly throw the "oh you're just stupid" or "oh you're just lazy" argument in the faces of people who actually know what the hell they're talking about when they're talking about imbalances. For someone who has spent as much time as you have on these forums, you should really know better.
Ofcourse you don't give a build, because you can't. Any build you can come up with (Edge of Extinction? The most important aspect of Nature's Renewal takes effect the moment it finishes casting, how the hell is Edge of Extinction going to stop that? Sacrifice Necros? You're going to sacrifice health under Fertile Season and the like? You realize they sacrifice a percentage of maximum health, right?) is going to be ripped to shreds by the people who have actually experienced this.
Your faith in the supreme balance of Guild Wars, where everything has a balanced counter if you just puzzle things together clever enough, is very cute and touching. It's however entirely disconnected from reality, a reality I propose you simply don't know anything about. Yet somehow this gross lack of actual insight doesn't stop you from constantly weighing in with your opinion on the subject, insulting people who have devoted hours and hours of their time experiencing, discussing and documenting this issue by claiming they're dumb and lazy, and to make matters worse you seem to refuse to actually read up on the subject, giving the same snotty, retarded "dumb and lazy" remark in every thread about it.
Ofcourse you don't give a build, because you can't. Any build you can come up with (Edge of Extinction? The most important aspect of Nature's Renewal takes effect the moment it finishes casting, how the hell is Edge of Extinction going to stop that? Sacrifice Necros? You're going to sacrifice health under Fertile Season and the like? You realize they sacrifice a percentage of maximum health, right?) is going to be ripped to shreds by the people who have actually experienced this.
Your faith in the supreme balance of Guild Wars, where everything has a balanced counter if you just puzzle things together clever enough, is very cute and touching. It's however entirely disconnected from reality, a reality I propose you simply don't know anything about. Yet somehow this gross lack of actual insight doesn't stop you from constantly weighing in with your opinion on the subject, insulting people who have devoted hours and hours of their time experiencing, discussing and documenting this issue by claiming they're dumb and lazy, and to make matters worse you seem to refuse to actually read up on the subject, giving the same snotty, retarded "dumb and lazy" remark in every thread about it.
Mithie
The only way to successfully counter NR is by not running any enchants/hexes, which all fine and dandy, until you realize "whoops, there goes 1/3 of the game".
Zeru
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Algren Cole
I feel no need to read any of the bullshit posts made about NR...I can counter it therefore I don't care if it's overpowered. and if I can counter it everyone else can as well. I'm not special, im not any better than an average player, im not of extreme intelligence or superior gaming ability....Spirit spam teams are easily countered. I have no aspiration to read the asinine reasons people want this skill nerfed...because it's not grossly overpowered...it's marginally overpowered at best.
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I know counters to spirit spam, it's not very hard. Spirit spam teams get absolutely raped by fear me because its so easy to spam with all the various spirits around. That's one out of several different ways. 'Countering' NR means not running a heavy enchant or hex heavy build. That's not a difficult concept at all and not the problem. The problem is that NR kills variety by making hundreds of skills total crap and restricting viable builds greatly, and if you don't believe that you really have no business posting in any pvp topic.
You're thinking a skill is only overpowered if it can't be effectively countered which isn't true at all. Mithie's post is a simple and good explanation of why (a bit overgeneralized but meh):
Quote:
| The only way to successfully counter NR is by not running any enchants/hexes, which all fine and dandy, until you realize "whoops, there goes 1/3 of the game". |
Silmor
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Algren Cole
Silmore: my "Walking Bomb" build has little to do with sacrificing health as it does with committing suicide for a reason...
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wolfy3455
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Algren Cole
Silmore: my "Walking Bomb" build has little to do with sacrificing health as it does with committing suicide for a reason...
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EDIT: Actually, I was just thinking LoD res for the cast time, I didn't pay attnetion to the cooldown so just replace that part in my guess with a normal rez.
Scaphism
Algren: Put up or shut up. Period.
Tigris Of Gaul
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Scaphism
Algren: Put up or shut up. Period.
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Mitsu Bishi
Actually NR the guild is not pure spirit spamming. We won against them in HoH today and they had a spammer, but didn't hide themselves behind millions of spirits like others do. So it was a pleasant fight and not a griefing session, I think all three parties weren't affected by NR too much 
Algren Cole
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Scaphism
Algren: Put up or shut up. Period.
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duly noted