If Dev's Nerf 105/85/55 Monk build will you continue to play Guild Wars?

Very nice post, you're one of the few people that gets the actual issue here. Anet made fissure armor only obtainable through grind. After you beat the game and cap all the skills... what is there left to do but grind? Here's my theory.

The devs initially wanted to farming/grind because it shouldn't be necessary. I still think it shouldn't be necessary. But then they released the game with little/no replayable content. So now they're stuck between a rock and a hard place. Let people farm, because it's the only reason they play, or try to keep things how they wanted in the first place.

If Anet just nerfs that one skill, or that one area, it'll be a sad day. They could put an end to this by changing the drops system. Everyone would be so much happier. I doubt all of you who made 105 monks would have done so if you could have gotten just as much ecto with your guildies coming a long, and maybe a random person. If the rewards were just as great for a party, it would be so much better. Enchant removal is stupid. Nerfing skills is stupid. I wonder when Anet will realize this.

They could actually do this, and a lot more people could have fun, if Anet changed the rewards system. I know a lot of people have fun soloing, and I don't see why Anet should change this. Fix the root of the problem, Anet!

Agreed Jesh. I probably would solo a BIT though cause for a bit, it's pretty cool taking on all those monsters with one dude. But I would MUCH prefer heading out with a group if I got just as much as I did solo. People to talk to, more ecto overall because we'd go further, etc. Doesn't need to be nerfed. Things need to be adjusted.

Oops. I forgot to stay on topic. I won't quit cause I never made a 105 monk. But I'll be dam happy to finally get my sup protection for my protector. I hate rune campers.

Of course I would continue to play!

Now granted this is speculation but remember back around May when it was pointed out that a monk could solo the Riverside providence mission? ANet saw this as wrong (it is a COoperative mission). How did they fix it? did they nerf the build itself? NO! Did they change any skills? NO! Instead they changed the enemies you ran into. They through in a monk/mesmer/necro in with each set of zealots. Since zealots have a higher AC they would out live the mo/me/n and then use their tactics to pound you even harder.

More people = more stupidity...more immature morons drawing dicks on the map....more people to aggro mobs that didn't need to be aggro'd....more people making dick and fart jokes....more people asking the female ele if they want to cyber or if they'll take their clothes off for money...more people = more headaches...I'd rather solo.

I'll continue to play but I sure won't be going to the UW anymore at all. What's so hard to understand about not taking the quests until you clear out some mobs? What's so hard to understand about not taking all three quests from the first reaper at the same time?

I really think a lot people believe they're *supposed* to die down there.

I agree, I wasn't stating it's the best way to farm, just that one poster had made the statement that it was not a good way to earn gold, to which I disagree. The amount of L20 players I see that can barely afford an expert salvage kit is beyond me... so 5 plat an hour is astonishing to them.

However, the posts from GraFFix and jesh are on target re: grind/farming. More people getting more characters to L20 want their Fissure armor which increases the demand on ecto/shards. Where there is high demand, a supplier will step in, even if that means creating a solo monk and farming the hell out of somewhere... simple market dynamics.

I will keep my monk, and keep playing, regardless. I farm when there's none of my friends playing...

But hey, look on the bright side... if farming UW gets nerfed, there'll be all those monks available for PUGs!

(I know, there are other places they can go, but who knows?)

But Anet forgot to remove farming, because farming for UW armour is the only thing left to do when you don't do PvP?
Anet created the problem, by adding some cheap way to keep customers playing, instead of at least completing the roleplay content decently.

And now to the point:

Of course it's very good to remove the solo farming, because after all it IS a multiplayer game, and I would not care if those soloers are going to leave.

I hope they keep adjusting the game until farming in a group is the only option. (Going with henchmen is ok too of course, they should just be seen as intermediate players who are always available.)

And people who say "the ecto prices will go up/down" are missing the point. That's about balancing the droprates, and about balancing the whole economy.

It's about either being able to play the PvE after-engame totally solo or not.

This is horrible logic. Innovation does not mean you do not build upon what others have left behind. Innovation does not mean that some things remain constant. I haven't followed the solo UW monk builds too closely, but I have noticed that people have gotten more efficient with their builds. That is innovation. Humans have gotten to space through innovation, but they have also gotten there partially on the discoveries of previous generations.

LifeInfusion, did you design those clothes you are wearing? What about that computer? No? Shameful.

I haven't read this thread up to this point (though I'm pretty familiar with the issue, it's not exactly new), but let me add this in case an ANet team member is reading:

**********

Nerfing at this stage of the game should be a last resort. The EverQuest team (and many other multiplayer designers over the years) have learned the hard way that nerfing alienates your playerbase.

**********

My definition of 'last resort' would be that the nerf had to be implemented for the game to progress forward. It can be argued that NR needs to be nerfed for exactly this reason in PvP (and I'd agree with that, for what it's worth, but that's another topic). But noone that I've ever heard on these forums has presented anywhere close to evidence indicating that the 105/55 monk builds are so destructive to the game that they should be eliminated (and this isn't really a build you can tone down, it's too extreme, it either works as-is or the low hitpoints hose you). In PvP they appear to be a non-issue, and in PvE every zone is instanced so who cares?

The 105/55 monks simply aren't that big a deal when it comes for any -other- person's enjoyment of Gwars PvP/PvE. I understand people's objections to the 105/55 build, but people with objections need to ask themselves the following question: "Would you want ANet to nerf one of -your- characters because someone else objected to it?". I think the answer would be a resounding 'No'.

Well said Vorlin!

Video game designers constantly ask themselves, "what will adding or deleting this feature add to the overall design?" Prot bond is only "needed" for the UW. People will always farm, hoard, spam, scam, etc. IMO the unhappy to happy ratio if they really really nerfed UW soloing would be more than 100:1

It will absolutely alienate a lot of people if they did it.. We just need improvements to group drops (gold piles/rare items) and more variety in things to do with our gold... not nerf the success of some because others can't/don't want to/are too lazy to

So, we'll have some unhappy farmers who will have to farm elsewhere like everyone else does. Oh well.

I dont know where you get this idea that a lot of people will be alienated when prot bond will get fixed. from reading this thread it seems like most will not let it be the end of thier worlds as you would seem to be suggesting here. The VAST majority stated they'd keep playing.

In once sense youre right, they need to increase the incentive to form groups. on the other hand the fixing of prot bond wont have anything to do with one persons success over someone who cant, (2 min on the internet and what, 3 days playing a monk is all it takes) wont, (nothing wrong with not abusing a skill) or too lazy (lol, as if its hard work) who doesnt. It will be because the devs never intended any class to solo in the UW. Period.

so if everyone is screaming "nerf the 105 monk" then what's next...?

"nerf the UW e/mo solo farmer"?

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=39716
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=45320

Nothing should be nerfed as long as it effect PVP fights..
That 105 monk thing is not effecting pvp so why nerf it ..
I say no nerf if they nerf it it wont effect my pvp so why bother...

Nerf only that effect pvp, cause this game is all about pvp, and farming is just someone hobby, if they like to farm let it be... if they want pvp let it be..
ya no nerf.. nerf spirits group yayayaa..

Ok, I've read 90% of all the posts on this thread. So, after much debate in my head I think I'll give my opinion. I've played Guild Wars since the beta days, and guess what I've found out, this game is awsome. Now, I've agreed for the most part with all the updates and fixes the devs have done to make this game "better" up to recently. I've played through my 4 lvl 20's, experimented with limitless amounts of combos, concerning the builds avalible. This super monk build is by far one of the best thought out builds I've seen. The one mistake in the build is that, it was made "public". Ok, so now the build is public, and it's becoming really popular with farming in certain areas............where's the problem?

I've put countless hours into this game, so no one here has the right to tell me that this game wasn't meant to be played a certain way. I've took part in more groups than I'd like to admit, and to be honest, sometimes I like to go and solo farm. Is that a sin? I take my monk and heal and par take in public affairs, and help the group stay alive. Gotta love contantly looking at the health meters. I payed for this game just like the rest of you, pro or anti solo monk farming, and after everything is said and done in this game, all you have left is going out and killing a bunch of stuff and seeing what you get as drops. This game has been very successful(lucky) in the being hacked area. Whats the point of that statement? Well, I'm a cheater/hacker in most games I play, whatever it may be, is that lame to you?

Sure it is to most of you, most games out there have a hard time keeping my attention, so I look for new ways to stay in the game, which usually leads to hacks or cheats or something. Guild Wars for whatever reason is completely different in my mind. I have made it a point to express my anti-cheating opinion in hacking forums and chats. Mainly because this game to me is a revolution of mmrpg genre. I have concerns that if they nerf this "legit" build, just because of public disagreements, that the game will sooner than later be more ...hack populated. Please no one say this game is hack proof either, because we all have seen that claimed by devs in many games of many genre's and look how wrong they were. My belief is that this game is enjoyed by hacks/cheaters/legits alike, its something different.

Not dependent on lvl to be mighty, you can just manipulate a few skills in certain ways and own people. No need to hack it, its sorta like your hacking without all the hexing and packet editing. So, now a possible trend of killing good builds begins, I just hope that the devs don't find themselves in a battle that SO MANY others have faught and lost with hackers. Because ultimately, no matter how smart you guys are making the game, somebody out there is one step ahead. I don't want to see this game killed by fellow cheaters and hackers, so just please be careful how you repair this issue that lame people have brought up.

Well said

The term nerf has been said approximately 957 billion times in this thread. The term nerf has not happened yet in regards to the thread topic. If said nerf indeed takes place, then this thread will be repeated, carbon copied, and faxed to every major airport within 250 miles of the server that is hosting this forum thread, in the hopes that all 19 people who dislike something they have no control over will get what they want.

In other words. Nerf this thread.

Yes, I will continue to play. Why wouldn't you? Also, I'm certain they don't enjoy having one of the hardest areas in the game that they created be made a joke by a single character. Better take advantage while you can, it's not going to last.

I agree with Hookecho on this one....after all we all did pay 50$ for this game and if some want to solo in some areas then who am I to disagree on how they play their characters...i don't have a monk at all so...if they want to use a solo build then let them...for all the people out there that doesn't like it...then just don't bother with it...it's like seeing a show on TV if you like it keep watching it...if you don't then simply turn the channel...don't ruinin it for everyone else that likes the build...the thing is if you like your characters and love playing them...then play your characters...who cares what everyone else is doing...as long as you like your characters and love playing the game...that's all that matters.

If usin a solo monk in the uw is an exploit so is usin any team build under 8 ppl
if they nerf this they need to nerf the 3-4 man trap teams doin uw and fow
ranger traps are way to powerful in my opinion anywayz so they should be nerfed also lol and they need to nerf all other builds to if they can solo not just the monk build they just need to nerf everything and anything that ppl bitch and complain about till only the bitchers and complainers are left then they wont have nothin to bitch and complain about except themselves then anet needs to nerf the hell out of them! lol

Which exactly is the point. Nobody from the whiner/bitcher/nerf everything faction did EVER show ANY proof that 105 monks have a negative impact on ANYONE ELSE'S gaming.

It's not even the point whether Protective Bond is overpowered or not. The point is - assuming that Prot Bond IS overpowered - does it affect others or not? There ARE abusive methods of gameplay that affect others. Like

- wearing Forge Armor in Low Level Arenas (this DOES affect other players in a negative way)
- Spirit Spamming: Spirits never were meant to be used in such a way - and it DOES affect other players in a negative way.

If anyone calls for nerf of above things, they get my full support for it, although I won't start "NERF THIS NERF THAT" threads on anything here.

If anyone of the pro-nerf faction can show me ANY SUBSTANCIAL PROOF that 105 monks affect other players in a negative way, I will change my opinion. As long as they can't do it, I think that people who call to nerf 105 monks are either
- jealous or
- zealots or
- jealous zealots

People using 105 monk builds do essentially these things:
- they have more money
- they sell lots of items to traders or other players
- they buy items, either from traders or other players
- they can solo areas where other people can't solo or it's a bit harder for them to do so

So let's review the impact of this on the game:

- The last thing CAN NEVER affect other people since playing solo can't affect others by definition. They argument "Nobody should solo UW" is only laughable in my opinion. You might as well say "Nobody should drive a BMW" and it would be just as laughable.
- They have more money than others. Well, this by itself isn't a bad thing either. In real life, there are people having more money than others, too. We don't nerf that, too. Money by itself doesn't mean anything.
- They sell more items because they're getting more due to farming. This has been said many many times, is A GOOD THING since it KEEPS PRICES DOWN for everyone. Anyone having the slightest understanding of economy will agree that an increase of supply will decrease prices. And in GW, we all like low prices, don't we?
- They can buy more stuff because they have more money. The most expensive items in the game are the 15k and Fissure armor sets. Those don't give you an edge in gameplay, they only look better. Again, it doesn't affect anyone else.
Ok, now here it comes, they only thing in Guild Wars where 105 monkers will actually have an impact on other people... they can outbid most other players in player-to-player trade. If anyone sells his shiny golden godly uberweapon and a 105 monk wants it, he will get it because he will have more money than you. Well, so that's it. A bad thing, isn't it? Only that...

EVERYONE WHO THINKS S/HE NEEDS TO SHELL OUT 150K FOR A WEAPON THAT'S 0.05% BETTER THAN A COLLECTOR WEAPON IS COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY CLUELESS ABOUT GUILDWARS.

A 105 monk just outbid you for a 50k bowstring? He actually DID YOU A FAVOR and kept you from wasting money.

Oh... and even if you despite all good reasons want to actually buy other people's crap for tons of gold - you still can make a 105 monk yourself, can't you???

So, dear pro-nerfers - give me ONE FREAKING REASON why 105 monks are a bad thing! A broken skill is NOT AUTOMATICALLY A BAD THING. It's only a bad thing if it does affect others in a negative way. So, go ahead, prove me wrong.

If they nerf it?

Yes.. absolutely.

(just want to add that I run a 105 monk, but I won't be too upset if they nerf it. I am bored to DEATH of the UW.. way rather do it in a team now :P And with new areas to explore on the horizon I am not really going to want to solo that. So really. I dunno. I have 4 complete characters. Any of which can farm, some less effectively than others. A smite monk can still farm even if they nerf the build.

We will just come up with another one. That is that !)

Asinine, biased comment.
1.) its not all about you.
2.) its not all about pvp, anet is TRYING to balance both experiences, Personally I dont think it can be done, and I'd rather see them give people like your own little space to have your little repetitive battles over and over and get you out of the roleplaying game.

Carebears losing their ridiculously limited farming build is the least of my concerns.

Isn't farming a little like digging for diamonds in a dungpile (omg, alliteration ftw!!!)? Do you really hate yourselves that much?

That's one possible way to describe it.
However, people have different tastes that is why the game should allow different ways to play it.

Personally, I don't care if the build gets nerfed or not as I don't have one and I don't intend to. That said, I don't expect them to target the build specifically, though they may tweak one or more skills used in the build which could harm or help the build depending on what happens. This would fall in line with the other tweaks they are doing to other skills such as chain lightning and meteor.

That's actually a very good analogy. Workers used to smuggle diamonds out of diamond mines by swallowing them. Once they were out of the mine they'd dig them out of their feces. Hell, if there were diamonds in cow droppings, you'd see a bunch of people happily digging through piles of dung in every farmer's field! (visions of Monty Python)

Same thing with Farming UW. I don't think people actually enjoy the repetition of farming. They enjoy the rewards, but the actual act of farming can't be that entertaining. It's scary that people are willing to do something boring for the intangible reward of something like different style armour for an online character.

I've thought about this many times while playing online. There is no tangible reward whatsoever from playing these games. They're fun, but really they're just a highly efficient way to waste time. Imagine if you were getting paid $5 an hour doing something instead of playing a MOG. Not only would you still have your $50 you paid for the game, but you'd also have five times your invested hours in cash. Think about it the next time you see you've played for 571 hours.

If others want to waste their time digging through piles of dung, that's their perogative.

First there was UO
Then came EQ
You've played AC, DAoC, AO, GW, and a host of others....

But you haven't tried anything until you've played:
DUNG HUNTER 3D!!

Koroh

re: topic - yes, and I hope they do

but this could take many different forms - ie more mobs with conditions/dots/enchant strippers where they love to live

Enchant strip is not the way... NR has already rendered enchants useless in PvP, lets not remove them from the remaining PvE areas.

Uh it's the carebears that are calling for a nerf. PvErs in general are no more carebears than PvPrs are inbred 13-17 year old males who like to act tough on the internet and have a life expectency of about half an hour when they finally encounter the mysterious and enigmatic (to them anyway) "Real World". Both exist and both are subsets of their respective populations but neither are the archetypes for their group.

I'm always against nerfing, no matter what game. Rather than nerfing I would want other parts of the game to improve so the balance is back. In this case it means the balance issue is not to nerf the smiterbuild but to improve other skillcombinations. And its a big misunderstanding that the mo/wa build can solo UW, they can only do some mobs.

Looking at the Mo/wa discussions (and the simular griffon discussion) I think this is the way GW was meant to be: Testing skill combinations to the limit to find the very best one possible for your build. The fact that there are always players who research and players who just copy the results does not change that.

What I would do? There are many things I take into consideration before I would buy an expansion. This is one of them. But an important one! When I get the feeling that the whole concept of skills instead of items would be violated by Anet itself by nerfing skills I would centainly think twice before buying again. But it would not stop me from playing the game I now allready own... now and than.

Ok I just had another thing to say about the monk build...I personally want stop play GW if they "nerf" the monk build...because I personally don't use a solo monk...but my husband and a friend of mine does...and they already have 4 lvl 20's and theres nothing else for them to do...other than help me...if they don't do anything to the solo build...I'm going to give it a try...not for money cause I have plenty as is...but because I'm tired of playing with people who don't know what they are doing...for example and this is just one of many...I had a character that needed to do Thirsty River before she could accend...and I got in a group and they failed not because of the monk...the monk was actually good...but others who wouldn't time it right...so of course we failed...then I got another team and another...after 14 tries with teams...I started to think maybe it was my fault for all the failures...so I decided to take nothing but henchmen...and guess what...I finished the mission...with the first try...Which didn't surprise me beacuse 90% of the time I usally go for the henchmen over people...because I get tired of people not listing or not playing as a team...

My point is I think it would be refreashing to go solo...just so that I can be in control...and if I die I know it would be totally my fault...

Me personally I want anet to focus more on other aspects of the game that need to be adressed...like the UW the loot(if you go with a full team) SUCKS...ive went more than 10 times and got nothing not even a blue item...and the people i went with said that thier loot sucked as well...so lets focus on issues that need some attention...

And for all the people out thier that say "nerf this" and "nerf that" Stop telling people what to do with the game they paid money for...

Like I said earlier if you don't like people who use the build and you don't like the build don't do dealings with them and don't use the build...just my 2 cents!

well said

Ofcourse I would keep playing. Dumb question.

don't give then any ideas that's all.

i think there should (and will be) always the posibilty to solo the UW, i think i still found a build to solo the UW (i havent played the 55 build, but i really want to see it in action). Protbond maybe too good...but after the change...it is still great skill. I made a protection/smiter build now, with 16 protection and 16 smiting. havent had the chance to try it...(caus i need shield of regeneration). But i think i can do griffon runs, and maybe solo UW

(soz for bad english and strange vocabulary :P)

Yes, because if you are playing GW just for collecting money then you are not enjoying the game.

I was once a Star Wars Galaxies user with 4 accounts and 6 characters including a Jedi. Combat Balance came, so went my accounts, cancelled.

I switched to GW and, though I grew tired of it sooner than SWG; much sooner than I thought as in 3 months compared to 1.5 years, I still returned to the game and not the sooner for the updates.

I do not care if they make solo farming more difficult. I do not care if they make UW or FoW harder. I do not care how they adjust the game. I bought it to play Guild Wars. Not to solo farm, not to PvP, not to PvE, not to ....

I bought this game to play Guild Wars. If playing Guild Wars means experiencing change, then so be it. At least A-net has put in place a development team that is not lazy, that does take into consideration user input, that does not charge a fee then feed me a line of sweet nothing promises they won't deliver upon, they don't make decisions that ruin an entire game, and A-net does all this with updates free for what? a $50 price tag? Lol! Thank God they are not ex-Sony Online Entertianment employees!!! If only A-Net would sell their product to that bunch of screw ups.

NCSoft and A-net must be stupid to be the only one to sell a game for such a low price expecting to reap a profit then give away an update that was supposed to cost money -- after all how do they pay their employees.


Would I still play the game? WOULD I STILL PLAY THE GAME???!!!

YOU DAMN RIGHT I WOULD PLAY THE GAME STILL!!!

All, first post on these boards. Alot of dicussion at to whether Monks have "ruined" the economy. After watching the 55/105 build and several of the more profitable farms get nerfed, I've yet to see anything but upwards spiral on cost. I would hypothesize that inflation is the result of folks buying millions of gold from EBay. How else to explain the thriving after market business around Lion's Arch and Ascalon? Just go there and sit for a bit on LA, District one and listen for the pricing. 25K for a Vampiric Pommel? Really... I've played for a couple of months and never sniffed 25K. The people buying don't exactly sound like wealthy solo, ecto farmers to me. The look like kids who got $40 for their birthday, turned it into 1000K or whatever, and look to be powerful powerfully quick. I'm not sure they are enjoying the view. It is a pretty game when you stop to look at it. BTW, I like to work on Solo builds, its just puzzle solving to me. I spent days working to develop a build and skill dexterity to solo the Hydra's. But got bored out of mind when I actually did it. Gurantee you that I lost money on it as well, but there was no way could I keep that up for any length of time, too slow. Anet should keep this in mind as they go about their business. If inflation is the problem, then the gold mongers on Ebay need to be dealt with. Nerfing skills/areas just reduces the ability of legit players to economically compete, solo or otherwise. Meanwhile, I intend to keep banging away playing with builds, enjoying the scenery, and ,oh, trying to finish the game before the next installment!

Please actually go look at the gold sellers on Ebay first. I wanted to get an idea of values on items, so I looked. Most of the gold on there has NO BIDS. I could be wrong, but I'd say next to no one buys Ebay gold. It's way overpriced.