Lets shatter a dumb myth

Yes I can. Female Mesmers are hotter. And they hex me so I take damage every time I'm with Elementalists.

Back OT: TadaceAce, you're comparing an E/Mo build to a nonexistant Mo build without any secondaries. You couldn't manage energy with an Mo, so you switched to E/Mo, used the overpowered Ether Renewal, and think that pwns all. Sorry, but that just shows a lack of effort on your part. Everything else I can say has already been said. GG.

I know this thread is probably more about PvP or GvG than PvE, but I want to contribute an out-of-the-box experience that has added to my belief that Monks are overvalued in PvE groups. I recently played Thirsty River with an all-Ranger group (Ranger primaries with various secondary classes). We used pets as tanks and stayed close to each other so we could cast Healing Spring during combat. This made us pretty much invincible throughout the entire mission, and we stormed through it as a result!

healing spring is the most piece of shit healing skill in the game. you made it through the mission because you worked as a team and focused your fire...every mission is possible without a monk. Monks just make it easier. But yes I do agree monks are overrated.....even though I play one from time to time

I'll give you that. I think female mesmers are much sexier. They have the best looking FoW armor around.

It doesn't look good for your case when some of the folks who are known to write essays on this stuff are saying, "Just... no."

Is female mesmer FoW armor really that good? I'm about to delete my ascended Me/N because finding groups with it is impossible.

The way the OP has presented the information almost puts everyone on the offensive and some the comments since then but he has some really good points and he has though about it. Here is a non-offensive summary

In PvP 4x4 an Healing Ele may be better then an standard monk for the reason that Ele have better energy management and 4x4 random not likely to have remove enchants that ele rely on. The point is to keep your energy through the roof with earth as added defense and allow you to spam constant healing. Also he points out how healing in 151 point shots over 2xx may be better do to the way some monks over heal with there spells and use engery in the process.

He goes as far as to actually provide a build with stats to give it try.

For Pve he points how a modification of the 4x4 healing ele and an Necro/Monk can make great secondary healers when no one can find a monk yet pug's might reject this since's it so foreign.

He does point out Monk is better for Tomb Kings and Guild vs Guild over an ele/monk.

I can see his logic and I think this approach is not used that much that it might work. I don't have enough of the stuff unlocked to mess with this build with a Pvp character nor do I want to convert my ele/mes at this time but once I do I might give this a try. I remeber the saying, what doesn't work dies on the battlefield and if it's flawed or I not good at this playing style then it won't be for me, but if it does work, sounds like fun.

I do think the "shock" approach was the wrong way of doing it.

The Divine Favour bonus sounds piddly when you look at it, but it's actually just enough that a Monk primary can sustainably heal with nothing more than natural regen. There are also a handful of very nice skills that have Divine Favour as their primary attribute.

That being said, an E/Mo can can use Ether Renewal and Infuse Health to restore as much as 3000 health in a 10 second timespan. Not too shabby, I think. (Xapti over at the Guild Hall cooked this one up. It's pretty awesome in RA/TA)

Yeah.
(Apologies to Therm - I borrowed one of his screencaps from another thread...)

Well, first, you're definately not the first person to make an E/Mo healer- back in the alpha test, before the World Preview Event, they were all the rage(due mainly to Ether Prodigy back then before it was changed considerably). I can remember seeing E/Mo's healing in all of the BWE's as well as in the early stages of release as well. Don't make claims you can't back up.

E/Mo's can make good healers, but in general, they're less reliable than primary monks. Basically, in order to keep up, you sacrifice your elite skill for Renewal, and depend on that to help you heal. If the Renewal gets stripped, interrupted, whatever, you're far less useful than a monk primary. You also lose access to a lot of the more useful skills- Spellbreaker, Word of Healing, Shield of Regen, Boon, Signet of Devotion, etc. When facing enemies with lots of enchantment removal, interruptions, or other disruption, I'd far prefer to have a monk who can be effective by casting a quick 5-energy heal than hope that the E/Mo healer doesn't get their renewal disrupted and has to wait for 10 energy to cast their heal other, which barely outstrips the monks orison. Not to mention, the E/Mo has to bring along several skills just to enchant themselves up for renewal, cutting down their versatility significantly- a primary monk can fit in hex/condition removal along with some healing enchantments and direct healing, as well as a rez. An E/Mo will generally have 4 enchantments only for themselves on their bar, with a couple heavy-hitting, expensive heal spells, and generally little to nothing in the way of removal.

I actually find secondary monks work better using protection rather than healing in any case. Monks have an efficiency that can't be matched for actual healing, due to the divine favor bonus. However, the ability to cast more protection spells can be worthwhile to have protection via a secondary. Mesmers make great hex removers, and can use inspiration spells to fuel a lot of the costly protection enchantments like Aegis, Shield of Regen/Deflection, etc where the divine favor bonus isn't all that important. E/Mo's can supplement their protection with wards which can help out significantly as well.

To Third Quarter: I've played with an E/Mo spamming Infuse Health(under Zephyr for only 3 seconds without renewal after +20% duration), and it can be quite sick. The problem generally comes in when the other team spikes a target when you're waiting on Renewal to recharge or are recasting enchants as they wear off. This is probably the most effective E/Mo healing build I've seen, but it is extremely weak to enchantment removal- one rend, and your character is pretty much useless.

Me/Mo healer works awesome, fast casting the res spells is most useful if someone does happen to die, and you can cast out a lot of heals quickly to make up for the lost divine. I would know, I am one.

a friend of mine is running an awesome Me/Mo protector, but healer?

An orison costs 1 sec cast time - there is not much need to make it faster. My friend uses mesmer for the possibility of faster recharge, which is really good when using aegis, shielding hands,... all the stuff that has a long cooldown.

But with heal skills i don't see neither long casting skills nor long recharge skills. So what benefit does a Me/Mo give you? You need to consider that you heal far less a Mo/Me can do.

With protection it is not really a problem to have it at 12 instead of 16, most skills don't get a real benefit from it. But with healing... things are quite different.

So please tell me: why is it so important to cast in 0.6 seconds instead of 1?

A very important thread raised from the start by an eejit who seems to have his own head jammed fast up his own chocolate wizzwang. But none the less, a few points have been posted since which raised some very valid points that I would like to highlight.

1. You choose your main char by the stlye of dance
2. Every bloke goes for the hottest looking / least dressed char they can find

OK so only 2 valid points, but is it just my fettish or is anyone else waiting for a female dwarf char to make so we can perv at the beard???

Things I didn't like about your post: the "fettish" typo (it's "fetish").

Things I liked about your post: the term "eejit" to define the op, the curious "chocolate wizzwang" expression and the bearded lady thing. A dwarf female would be so hot.

haha he said it

This is how I'll leave it, I'll give you the best 4 v 4 monk build and ele build for healing (won't use necro for 4v4 cause no death)

Then I'll give you the best ele heal - monk heal - and necro heal builds for pve
If your even worth arguing in this thread you'll have the skills to run these builds at least as far as pvp characters, you'll take others word on the heal builds. Honestly people, forget what people tell you about monks being the best healers and try it yourself.

Oh and don't flame the builds, some builds are better than others in different situations but overall these are the best builds I've found and I've played just about anything the imagination can create.

I'll rate the build on a scale of 1-10 on effectiveness

FOR FOUR VS. FOUR ARENAS!
Monk - Word of Healing, Healing Touch, Healing Breeze, Orison of Healing, Armor of Earth, Life Bond, Balthazar's Spirit. Rating: 7
Spec - 11+4 heal, 6+1 prot, 8+1 divine, 10 earth

Ele - Ether Renewal, Heal Other, Healing Breeze, Orison of Healing, Reversal of Fortune, Aura of Restoration, Armor of Earth, Kinetic Armor. Rating: 10
Spec - 12 heal, 6+4 storage, 10+1 earth, 6 prot


FOR PVE!!
Monk - Orison of Healing, Heal Other, Healing Breeze, Healing Touch, Inspired Hex, Drain Enchantment, Energy Tap, Energy Drain. Rating: 8
Spec - 12+4 heal, 8+1 divine, 10 inspiration

Ele - Ether Renewal, Heal Other, Healing Breeze, Orison of Healing, Divine Boon, Aura of Restoration, Balthazar's Spirit, Rebirth/Rez Sig. Rating: 6
Spec - 12 heal, 12+4 storage

Necro - Word Of Healing, Heal Other, Healing Breeze, Healing Touch, Orison of Healing, Heal Party, Vigorous Spirit, Rebirth/Rez Sig. Rating: 9
Spec - 12 heal, 12+4 reaping

Test um out, the PvE ele healer can also be swapped as a basic healer and use ether prodigy.




Sick of the flames, if you don't have something constructive to say simply say bump.

If you ever find a mesmer who can drain 100 energy (16 storage and a 10+5 staff) in 1 round of skills, sign him up cause hes hacking.

*sighs in annoyance*
Uhm... I'm not going to type out a long, elaborate post, but... For everyone screaming "omg monks don't have enuff energy!!!1!one!", you really need to take a look outside of your narrow-minded idea of a healer. For example, my Healer is a Mo/N. I use Divine Boon to trigger staggering heals, and I use Offering of Blood to regenerate energy. Between Blood Rituals cast by Necromancers, and Offering of Blood, I almost never run out of energy, while doing 150-300 health heals. Omgomgomgwtflolbbq. *sighs again, and strolls out of the topic*

I have no doubt in my mind that Elementalists and certain builds of other classes can be potential primary healers. However the Monk has the most diversity in skill choice when it comes to builds with healing due to their Primary Attribute of Divine Favor, and a nice little skill called Divine Boon (which if I remember correctly operates off of Divine Favor).

Teams are already concerned with whether or not they have a Healing or Smiting monk, but in rare cases you can pull both skillsets together nicely. I wouldn't want to start having to ask all Elementalists if they are now specced for Healing vs. Damage Dealing... but that might just be me.

1. I'd like to know a monk with 100 energy; they'd be my best friend.
2. Your "best healing builds" list is utter crap. You can't properly compare 2 or more things unless variables are kept even somewhat constant. Not to mention, energy management > your silly desire for armor of earth.
3. No monk under the sun runs a build that doesn't have energy management. You seem to keep giving your elementalist the nice boost of ether renewal, but you don't want to give the monk OoB or ED? (ED being the prefered choice since hex/enchant/other EM skills run on that line.)
4. I'd love having more people run E/Mo healers. Now, not only do I outheal, but I have an unlimited energy engine to leech from.

I'll write your ignorance (I'll assume it's genuine ignorance about monks) off as you're the person with the bullshit formula. >.>

16 inspiriation
14 domination

Ether feast->Archane Echo->Energy drain->Energy drain->Energy tap->(mantra of signets) Signet of weariness->Signet of weariness->Energy burn->Ether feast.

106 energy drained. 20s elapsed with no fast casting. I do suspect that a debilitating shot ranger does it better in the same timeframe though.

THats well 2+2+1+1+3+0+2+2+2+2, well thats only, 17 seconds.... thats not exactly 1 heal spell...\

Total Energy Drain = 5 + 42 + 14 + 20 + 10 + 5 = 96 btw

ok go ahead take out armor of earth and put in energy management, better put another monk on your team cause your not gonna outheal even one good damage build.

and I have no clue what your talking about the "bullshit formula"

and read the post the 100 energy is with I quote "12+4 Storage and a 10+5 staff" know any monks with energy storage?

omg omgs offering of blood, its energy drain without... the energy drain...

i guess how many times you can use it in a 5 min period doesnt factor in...does it?




on another note. somebody that would just put 16 in heals and 13 in divine makes me wonder if they have ever truly played a monk......

Your mistake is you neglect any efficient means of energy management when you talk about the monk. Your E/Mo is using both classes to maximum efficiency, when the monk is only using one class. Add in some energy management with the monk like energy drain or offering of blood and the monk has the clear advantage.

I guess the OP hasn't used many divine boon monk/mesmer builds... its a combination of efficient energy managment combined with highly efficient heals... a 17 DF boon gives you 70 health per monk spell cast on ally, then a reversal of fortune cancels out one to two attacks on the ally. Mend ailment gets rather silly against condition stacking builds, and is decent enough against the random bleeding + deep wound or deep wound + cripple from axe/sword warriors, and is fast enough to remove weakness from an other ally against a hammer warrior with devastating hammer --> hammer bash. 16 divine favor with a +1 DF %20 off hand switch (not standard), 10 inspiration, 9 prot, dump points into domination. Divine boon, reversal of fortune, mend ailment, inspired hex, hex breaker (or mantra of resolve if rangers are a bitch), drain enchantment, energy drain, and guardian/signet of devotion. If you bring two of them, just about the right amount of healing to keep your team up a lot with little additional disruption, and also brings a good amount of energy/enchantment denial.

And whhhhhyyyy are you not running hea.ling seed? With enough seeds, it takes very little work to keep allies up..

I actually did some calculator-ing a couple days ago to compare an elementalist/monk healer to a monk primary healer. The very first character I made back in the beta was an e/mo healer, and he's still my primary character. Here's the text file:

E/mo (assuming +20% enchantments, 12 healing and ether prodigy = 8 energy regen)
151 Heal Other for 10 energy
150 Heal Area, multiplied by (number of hurt, adjacent team-mates) minus (150 times the number of hurt, adjacent enemies) for 10 energy
192 Healing Breeze for 10 energy
67 Heal Party, multiplied by (number of hurt team-mates) for 15 energy
51, 68, 85, 102, 119, 136, 153 Dwayna's Kiss, depending on number of enchantments and hexes on ally, for 5 energy
---
Remember that Ether Prodigy is, in a way, the same thing as halving ALL energy costs, and halving enemy energy-drain skills. I love getting the whole "How much energy do you have, anyway?!" comment from mesmers or rangers who don't understand Ether Prodigy.

Mo (assuming +20% enchantments, 16 healing and 15 divine = 4 energy regen)
118 Orison of Healing for 5 energy
188 Orison of Healing for 7 energy and -1 energy regen when used with Divine Boon
234 Heal Other for 10 energy
190 Heal Area, multiplied by (number of hurt, adjacent team-mates) minus (190 times the number of hurt, adjacent enemies) for 10 energy
261 Healing Breeze for 10 energy
315 Healing Breeze for 10 energy and -1 energy regen when used with Blessed Aura
84 Heal Party, multiplied by (number of hurt team-mates) for 15 energy
152 Healing Touch for 5 energy
222 Healing Touch for 7 energy and -1 energy regen when used with Divine Boon
108, 129, 150, 171, 192, 213 or 234 Dwayna's Kiss, depending on number of enchantments and hexes on ally, for 5 energy
178, 199, 220, 241, 262, 283 or 304 Dwayna's Kiss, depending on number of enchantments and hexes on ally, for 7 energy and -1 energy regen when used with Divine Boon
129 or 234 Word of Healing [Elite], depending on if your target's health is below 50% - 45 or not, for 5 energy
199 or 304 Word of Healing [Elite], depending on if your target's health is below 50% - 45 or not, for 7 energy and -1 energy regen
---
Healing Touch matches the E/mo's Heal Other in energy effeciency, Dwayna's Kiss can match and exceed it given 3 or more enchantments / hexes on your target, and Word of Healing exceeds it by about +25% compared to Healing Breeze, +50% compared to Heal Other, assuming you cast it when your target's health is below 50% minus 45. Everything else is between 60-80% as effecient.
The monk primary does indeed exceed the E/mo in effeciency if the only spells he casts are those and you use two superior runes, otherwise possibly not. (Lacking a divine superior makes your Healing Touch much worse, and lacking a healing superior makes your Word of Healing much worse) This doesn't count any energy recoveries the monk's secondary class might have though, which could change things. In most cases, however, those energy regens can be much less consistant and reliable than ether prodigy.

The e/mo can, however, totally blow away Word of Healing with good use of Heal Party and Heal Area. The Heal Area would have to heal 2 people minimum, and the Heal Party 5 or 6 minimum. All in all, I'd say the e/mo is more energy effecient, especially if you want to use other skills at all, like hex removals, condition removals, armor spells, etc.
The monk primary rules more in the area of purely countering spike damage, though. If you compare his Word of Healing to the e/mo's Heal Other, it's about 10% more health over time. If you compare their Heal Others, the monk primary gets about 50% more over time. (Edit: The fact that the monk primary has more kinds of heals to carry is really what makes him better at anti-spike, I think. The e/mo is pretty much limited to those I listed for him above.)

In my opinion, it would be wisest to have both an e/mo and a mo primary for healers. Let the mo handle spiking and people with low health. The e/mo would handle healing breezes, people with high-health, the area-effect heals and condition removals. This is, of course, not the only viable way - I've learned not to think that way about this game. But that's my input on this subject.

I prefer to have E/Mos go protection if they wanted to do monking. A lot of the prot spells are expensive, while most don't need a full 16 prot to be effective. Look at aegis, prot spirit, mark of protection, convert hexes. Putting all those spells on the bar is energy intensive, and not very feasible with a monk primary due to lack of large energy pool.

The only downside I see of going E/Mo is that you need to either rely on Ether Renewal/Prodigy or lesser glyph for energy management if you want to use a monk elite. It's not as flexible as a primary monk in that regard.

Also its interesting to note that primary monks have better enchant-less self-healing and preservation in the form of high DF healing touch, and boon + contemplation of purity. Speaking of boon, running high DF and boon will outstrip E/Mo in efficiency with some from of energy management. In an energy denial environment, primary monks will outlast E/Mos if their Ether Renewal gets removed at all, due to bonuses from divine favor.

Another thing to factor in is the primary monk's access to +10 AL vs physical on their armor set, which is something elementalists do not get. In a warrior and ranger heavy environment, it can make a lot of difference in survivability. Going full tattoos on a primary monk is a BAD idea, but I see a ton of monks doing this. Apparently the usefulness of +armor vs +max energy is lost on them...

Tyroi your big post is also with 15 divine... c'mon, nobody is gonna equip 2 sup runes in the right mind... thats 380 life with a sup vigor... healing draws aggro, aggro against 380 life against guys hitting for 100 is a dead monk... what good is a dead monk..

Oh and divine boon + word = bad idea, I've tested it before, the divine favor + boon heal are factored in before the <50% check so basically they have to be down to like 20% life.

look at the pve monk build I provided, they don't come with any more energy management then that...

No, but you arent adding after casts in there. Also, its not about stopping a heal spell, its about preventing more. Next set of spells happens within 5s, but you asked anyway. Your ele build isnt anything special, even for random arenas.

Energy Tap, on a monk, is laughable. No monk can afford to stand around for 3 seconds casting a spell. >.> Channeling would be much more effective with a monk. You obviously lack the proper knowledge of energy management (I'll assume you've never used it since you show absolutely no understanding on the matter.), and I'd guess you'd never played a monk.

I guess it's always possible you were flamed/laughed at as a monk, so you turned to E/Mo healing to blame the laughter/flames on others' closed-minded views.

I've seriously just been waiting for Kuntz, Weezer, or someone to come in and wipe this thread up. >.> I know it will be quite entertaining when it happens.

N/Mo is far superior in PvE. In terms of energy management, assuming something dies every 10 seconds (which is an underestimate), soul reaping 16 is more than twice as effective as OoB. And since a N/Mo has a free elite, taking WoH brings heal per energy efficiency up to primary monk level. So overall, a N/Mo will be twice as efficient in healing in PvE.

In PvP you are hands-down correct. Certainly the Ascetic Design set gives
you 6 energy (for the leggins and chest, the ones that matter). However,
once you've used that 6en, you're unlikely to ever get close to your max
energy. Energy Drain/Offering of Blood both give 18 energy at 12 in
their respective attributes, for a net gain of 13 energy. You'd have to
be over 17 energy when casting these spells for any of the 6 energy
given by the Ascetic set to be refilled -- and this is unlikely in a highly
competitive match. Furthermore, in PvP, you're most likely target #1,
so any damage reduction you have the better. The only debate here
is if the Wander's/Sacred's set is better than Censors -- a great deal of
PvP damage is elemental damage (spike and smiting builds).

However, in PvE, I have to disagree with you. Most of the time you
are targeted very last; and you almost always have enough time
between each mob to recover that 6en to be at full mana. In this
kill-quickly-and-move-on style, that extra 6en is an extra WoH. So,
for PvE, I'd stick with tattoos.

Oh, I know they wouldn't use two superiors. I know I wouldn't. I guess I just preferred to assume the absolute maximum that a monk could do for sake of comparing.

And yeah, Elder, I'd -never- use Ether Renewal. I mean it's got a lot of potential and can rock, but... Enchantment strips, anything that can keep you from casting or allowing one's energy to get too low (enemy energy drains!!!) totally screw you over. Ether Prodigy is much much harder to stop. Even if it's stripped, it's recast is short. I was soooo happy when I finally got to switch from Renewal to Prodigy, heh. The main thing that destroys Prodigy's energy regen is if something manages to increase the spell's recharge time, which is very, very uncommon. I will agree that the monk isn't reliant on an energy recovery quite the same way the e/mo is, but I invite you to try Ether Prodigy in PVP and see how hard it is for enemies to stop that regen.

Yeah, monk primaries have a loooot more options than secondaries, beyond just elites. Things like Orison of Healing aren't even worth looking at for a monk secondary.

I know monk primaries can and do rock. Heck, if you have a necro who can keep his energy regens on his team's monks, I'm not even gonna try to compete with that as an e/mo.

*clap* *clap* *clap*

16 Divine Favor plus Healing Touch... ever tried that? Healing Touch is my best self-heal. Try it without DV and it's just Orison with a longer cooldown.

Protection monks cast things like Aegis, that effect the whole party, and subsequently heal everyone for a DV boost.

Heal Party becomes an actually considerable option, because DV gives everyone, within an enormous range, both an orison-like boost plus the DV modifier. Heal 4 people with 3 Orisons in a string, or heal them with Heal Party and cast your Orison on the people that are still low on health?

Furthermore, Monks are not plain helpless about their mana. A smart monk using full tats (Yes, that's right, full tats) can have an easy 52 mana with an Insightful staff. I'd rather have that than an extra 6 armor (10% of 60 = 6) against Physical and a pitiful 40 or so mana from Censor's. 12 more mana is two orisons, and in the time it took you to cast those, mana for a Healing Breeze. 6 armor? Pshaw.

I've talked to Elementalists that tried healing builds... what about the fact that they cannot use Monk runes? No divine favor + no Monk runes means that, despite their mana storage, fast casting, et cetera, they're still not healing for as much as a Monk is, using their entire mana bar.

A Monk primary is just plain built for healing and protecting. He's got a few supercool Smiting skills to make him feel like an Elementalist, meanwhile ^_^

It's a bad idea to scoff at a ridiculous-looking build, for any reason. Some of those builds were put together by people that had insight that the casual, ignorant observer didn't have, and a build can come back and bite you in the ass for ignoring it.

P.S. I still think that R/W's are just Rangers that want to apply poision with an axe.

Healing Breeze FTW

For the record, Heal Party does _not_ give the +51 (16 Divine Favor)
bonus to everyone in the party. Neither does Aegis. I think only the
healer gets the DF bonus since he/she is the target of the spell.

In PvE, having that extra 25 energy is very nice. However, in PvP, I'd
rather have 26 mana and +10 armour from a staff and +10 armour
against physical. After the first 10-15 seconds of the match your
additional 25 energy won't mean a thing.

Oh.

Gee, I ought to check my facts first, eh?

Healing Touch is still useless without DF, though.