I'll get to the topic in a second, but I have to say this one thing.
I've been using arredondo's Soul Barbs build in PvP, and might I say, it has been owning like no other. I can drop most people in about 5 seconds with it. Yet when people find out I'm not a frag mesmer, they boot me from the party. This is the type of close minded ignorance that pisses me off. Especially when I kill the priest in team arenas, the warrior on our team comes up and hits him once to finish him off, and takes the credit. People just don't realize that builds that aren't the normal ones you see in PvP all the time can be good, or even better.
Anyway, back to topic.
I have a level 20 R/E who has beaten the game. Up until I got my 15k armor, it was very hard to find a group (guess it's for more than just aesthetics). I found that kind of sad, but whatever helped. Alot of people don't take a second to stop and think about what a ranger is capable of. They just need the highest amount of damage and they think it will work. Alot of groups I join won't even have a mesmer or necro (unless he has BiP, which is another bullshit idea that I hate), and I always leave a group if they have more than 3 warriors (unless it's an early-game mission). I made a bet with myself. I bet that I could beat the Thunderhead Keep with nothing but Ranger skills and henchies. Guess what? It was easy as hell. I'll pop into random arenas on a pure ranger test build and people will notice that I don't have a secondary proffesion and yell at me for it.
To sum it all up, Rangers are underrated and no decent party should be without one.
So what's wrong with rangers now?
Labrie
Fantus
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ensign
It isn't that other classes aren't assumed to suck. I assume that everyone on my team is going to suck. It's that a sucky Elementalist is still going to cast Meteor Shower every time it refreshes, and a sucky Warrior is still going to stand there and take hits (assuming, of course, he isn't completely incomptent and just runs off to solo things and dies). A sucky Ranger is going to sit in the back and plink things and do effectively nothing. Look at Aidan. That guy doesn't do anything.
Warriors and Monks and Elementalists can be bad. But they can't be *as bad* as Rangers or Mesmers. When you assume everyone is terrible, you look at the floors, and Rangers and Mesmers have the lowest ones. |
A sucky Warrior would aggro mobs and then run back, drawing the mob into the squishies.
A sucky monk would cast Healing Breeze on every group member who lose 10 health, including pets - having no energy left when the real damage comes.
The floor is INCREDIBLY low, for every class. There is no difference at all between every one of the six classes. If the players suck, they suck - regardless of what class they play.
Labrie
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fantus
A sucky Elementalist would run into mobs before tanks do and aggro them onto himself.
A sucky Warrior would aggro mobs and then run back, drawing the mob into the squishies. A sucky monk would cast Healing Breeze on every group member who lose 10 health, including pets - having no energy left when the real damage comes. The floor is INCREDIBLY low, for every class. There is no difference at all between every one of the six classes. If the players suck, they suck - regardless of what class they play. |
Lady Ting
I've made a ranger char a few weeks back, got it all maxed out full armor, qs build, but i slowly came to realize how ranger realy dont do much dmg so i deleted the useless char 
Labrie
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lady Ting
I've made a ranger char a few weeks back, got it all maxed out full armor, qs build, but i slowly came to realize how ranger realy dont do much dmg so i deleted the useless char
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Ghull Ka
Fantus and Ensign both make incredibly good points.
I've always "rooted for the little guy" in a way... I'll take a ranger any day. If someone in party whispers me and says "kick the ranger and get another nuker" then I kick the guy that whispered me, heh. My ranger just got to the desert and has had on-again/off-again success getting PUGs, but I don't let it fade me. I love playing him and wish I'd gone R/E (i went R/W to get frenzy and i never use it, sigh)
I've always "rooted for the little guy" in a way... I'll take a ranger any day. If someone in party whispers me and says "kick the ranger and get another nuker" then I kick the guy that whispered me, heh. My ranger just got to the desert and has had on-again/off-again success getting PUGs, but I don't let it fade me. I love playing him and wish I'd gone R/E (i went R/W to get frenzy and i never use it, sigh)
jaibas17
judging 1 whole profession by 1 build??
man thats lame
omg! earth eles ge exhausted fast they suck!!
omg! necro minion masters are worthless without bodies they suck!
omg! blind a warrior and he sucks!!
backfire a monk and he sucks!!
<doesnt know what to say about mesmers> but that build sucks!
thats what i think about your last post
Btw quicshot is really good, i hope you can see your priest dead in 6 seconds with my quickshot build
~yours truly lazy bow~
man thats lame
omg! earth eles ge exhausted fast they suck!!
omg! necro minion masters are worthless without bodies they suck!
omg! blind a warrior and he sucks!!
backfire a monk and he sucks!!
<doesnt know what to say about mesmers> but that build sucks!
thats what i think about your last post
Btw quicshot is really good, i hope you can see your priest dead in 6 seconds with my quickshot build
~yours truly lazy bow~
VGJustice
I'm one of the odd melee R/W. Oddly again, I found that I could tank almost as effectively during the last mission as the Warriors standing next to me. Only 1 dedicated healer, but I just kept up with the Troll Ungent, so there was never an issue.
But, yeah, I've noticed that Rangers tend to have a hard time finding a group. Even though I'm unbelievably tough (for a Ranger), and I can spam any adrenal skill better than any warrior could hope to, and I can still break out Status Ailments and Traps and Spirits if it's needed, I must suck because I decided to use a sword instead of a bow. BTW, Hundred Blades meshes nicely with Apply Poison and Predatory Season.
But, yeah, I've noticed that Rangers tend to have a hard time finding a group. Even though I'm unbelievably tough (for a Ranger), and I can spam any adrenal skill better than any warrior could hope to, and I can still break out Status Ailments and Traps and Spirits if it's needed, I must suck because I decided to use a sword instead of a bow. BTW, Hundred Blades meshes nicely with Apply Poison and Predatory Season.
Labrie
Quote:
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Originally Posted by VGJustice
BTW, Hundred Blades meshes nicely with Apply Poison and Predatory Season.
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Batou of Nine
to original subject:
yup...noobastic behavior will always last in GW...Mesmers/Necros/rangers will always be underappreciated. Monks will be heavily over-appreciated, Tanks will not be used to full potential and Nukers...will nuke? As a Tank ppl always ask how are you not dying there are XXX# of baddies focusing on YOU!! or, how do u do so much DMG! lmao...
my favorite 8 man quest/mission group: 2 Tanks, 2 Rangers, 1 Necros, 2 mesmers, 1 monk ---> all balanced right, u have massive area dmg, heavy enemy dmg/degen, constant party heal, and good protection for all = fun group!!!
yup...noobastic behavior will always last in GW...Mesmers/Necros/rangers will always be underappreciated. Monks will be heavily over-appreciated, Tanks will not be used to full potential and Nukers...will nuke? As a Tank ppl always ask how are you not dying there are XXX# of baddies focusing on YOU!! or, how do u do so much DMG! lmao...
my favorite 8 man quest/mission group: 2 Tanks, 2 Rangers, 1 Necros, 2 mesmers, 1 monk ---> all balanced right, u have massive area dmg, heavy enemy dmg/degen, constant party heal, and good protection for all = fun group!!!
Warchicken
It can be hard to get a group for me as a minion master, so when I want to farm grenth's I just take 3 henches 
Warskull
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ensign
It isn't that other classes aren't assumed to suck. I assume that everyone on my team is going to suck. It's that a sucky Elementalist is still going to cast Meteor Shower every time it refreshes, and a sucky Warrior is still going to stand there and take hits (assuming, of course, he isn't completely incomptent and just runs off to solo things and dies). A sucky Ranger is going to sit in the back and plink things and do effectively nothing. Look at Aidan. That guy doesn't do anything.
Warriors and Monks and Elementalists can be bad. But they can't be *as bad* as Rangers or Mesmers. When you assume everyone is terrible, you look at the floors, and Rangers and Mesmers have the lowest ones. Peace, -CxE |
Arcanis the Omnipotent
Possibly because you stopped trying.
Batou of Nine
Quote:
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Originally Posted by warskull
This is a real pity too because I know what a good ranger, mesmer, and necro is capable of doing. I just can't seem to find the competent ones.
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the reason there is such a divide between the above mentioned 3 classes and the tank, monk, nuker is due to ease of use. A warrior, monk and nuker, is essentially eazier to quickly pick up. And most unexperienced or 'RpG noobs' wouldn't pick a strange named character like mesmer or necromancer, same i guess goes for ranger. In most cases skills for W, mo and ele, are straight foward in terms of use. (I am NOT saying these 3 classes dont take skill, simply that they are ez for ppl to initially use!) This is the beginning of the divide.
The other 3 classes take experience and understanding to use. Many skills of which are not straightfoward and also need understanding in order to use. Since these characters are delecate by nature, if a person who has played for one week starts a necro or mesmer, he/she becomes that 'not so bright' and avoided player. i guess over time a stereotype has been created due to this, leading to many ppl assume rangers, mesmers and necros will be no use to parties, and in actuality all class players have the same % risk of being useless to a party...
But for us forum ppl, who i assume are taking the time to read helpful posts, the difference theren lies. We are all either already veterans of the game, or are new players seeking to understand how to play and get the most out of the game. This covers PvP, PvE, trade community, Guild communities, forum communities and so forth...
*GASP for air*
Thats my two cents...
dargon
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warskull
Unless I can get some indication that they aren't an idiots before I take them I prefer to avoid them.
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Fantus
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warskull
When I create a group this is the assumption I make. I assume that 95% of the people I recruit will be complete and total idiots. I assume the warrior will be incapable of damage output, I assume the elementalist will be good for nothing other than casting meteor shower, and I assume the monks will use sub-par healing at best. I prefer to avoid unknown rangers and mesmers for this reason.
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A sucky ranger will still shooting arrows at a random target and cause some damage.
A sucky mesmer will still cast Conjure Phantasm whenever it recharges
A sucky necro will still exploit every corpse available into a bone minion.
I still fail to see why a sucky Warrior/Ele/Monk should be ANY better than a sucky Ranger/Mesmer/Necro.
M3lk0r
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dargon
Until you group with them, how can you know?
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I remember some random ele in Thunderkeep saying "A group with a ranger in it cant be serious" Though I did proceed to finish off the mission with henchies, I see a tough future for rangers if such toon discrimination goes on...
2_fingers
Quote of the day by an idiot in my team
"Traps suck in pvp"
then proceeded to trap our monk, allowing us to buy him time, while we removed the weeds
"Traps suck in pvp"
then proceeded to trap our monk, allowing us to buy him time, while we removed the weeds
VGJustice
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Labrie
Damnit, someone discovered my little secret. =[
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Shadowspawn X
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker
It was a JOKE!!!!
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Warskull
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fantus
In a try to reverse Ensign's statement from above:
A sucky ranger will still shooting arrows at a random target and cause some damage. A sucky mesmer will still cast Conjure Phantasm whenever it recharges A sucky necro will still exploit every corpse available into a bone minion. I still fail to see why a sucky Warrior/Ele/Monk should be ANY better than a sucky Ranger/Mesmer/Necro. |
The problem is poor mesmers tend to degen the target which really limits their effectiveness and poor rangers have rather low damage output.
I have tried to recruit mesmers/ranger multiple times, even make ranger/mesmer/necro centric groups. The problem is most of them are really bad. For example I design a group for SF with 6 Rangers, a necro (me), and a monk. I tell the rangers to take barrage or Quickshot and dualshot and to make sure their weapon is physical damage. I have the rangers take healing spring, winnowing, and favorable winds. Half the rangers don't have healing spring, they all refuse to take winnowing, and in battle they all refuse to follow strategy. The battle plan was mindlessly easy too. Ball up around the necro and monk, drop healing spring, then spam Quickshot, Barrage, and Dualshot. While they do that I will keep up Order of the Vampire and Order of Pain as much as I can. The strategy will work fairly nicely in SF if they follow orders (any enemy wells are negated by OoV and springs, plus one of your better rangers will be able to interrupt wells of suffering.) However none of them listened at all and they all proceeded to just scatter and shoot at random targets. This is an example of why I don't like working with pick-up rangers or mesmers. If I pick-up a ranger they are going to get grilled and if they have the slightest inkling of cluelessness they get booted. While W/Mos and E/Mes tend to be morons, they are at least trained morons and are thus more predictable and easier to work with.
cloude1080
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warskull
While W/Mos and E/Mes tend to be morons, they are at least trained morons and are thus more predictable and easier to work with.
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ExDeity
I feel the pain of all you Rangers who are forced to be left out like the fat kid in a pick-up baseball game.
Having played a Ranger for a good third of my Guild Wars experience (alot, considering I have given almost an exact equality in time played to the other classes, save Elementalist, which I am yet to play thoroughly), I know that Rangers are truly the Jack-of-all-trades, and anyone who underestimates one is hardly an experienced GW player.
Earlier today, while playing a Necromancer, I made the mistake of underestimating my original GW profession, when I tried, on countless occasions to lay some damn hexes on an AMAZING R/Me Disrupting specialist. He sat there, firing his arrows away, little by little, waiting for the precise moment to cast his mesmer interrupts, leaving the majority of my skills absolutely powerless. I have never seen such a "shutdown Ranger" before in all of my time playing, and the beauty of it all was that he was doing a significant amount of damage to me, simply firing his arrows one after another while I tried desperately to get some hexes on him. Each and every one.. disrupted, and as I was left with no mana and half my skills recharging, I realized my health was already lowered to one fifth of its maximum. I couldn't believe that a Ranger, a class normally seen as a "weak" one, had completely dominated the build I had tried so hard to create.
Alot of people fail to realize that a R/Me interrupt build is virtually unstoppable against any caster that doesn't have a melee weapon to fall back on, if used correctly. Never again will I underestimate the powers of a Ranger
Having played a Ranger for a good third of my Guild Wars experience (alot, considering I have given almost an exact equality in time played to the other classes, save Elementalist, which I am yet to play thoroughly), I know that Rangers are truly the Jack-of-all-trades, and anyone who underestimates one is hardly an experienced GW player.
Earlier today, while playing a Necromancer, I made the mistake of underestimating my original GW profession, when I tried, on countless occasions to lay some damn hexes on an AMAZING R/Me Disrupting specialist. He sat there, firing his arrows away, little by little, waiting for the precise moment to cast his mesmer interrupts, leaving the majority of my skills absolutely powerless. I have never seen such a "shutdown Ranger" before in all of my time playing, and the beauty of it all was that he was doing a significant amount of damage to me, simply firing his arrows one after another while I tried desperately to get some hexes on him. Each and every one.. disrupted, and as I was left with no mana and half my skills recharging, I realized my health was already lowered to one fifth of its maximum. I couldn't believe that a Ranger, a class normally seen as a "weak" one, had completely dominated the build I had tried so hard to create.
Alot of people fail to realize that a R/Me interrupt build is virtually unstoppable against any caster that doesn't have a melee weapon to fall back on, if used correctly. Never again will I underestimate the powers of a Ranger
smurfhunter
a bad monk can be much worse than a bad ranger. dont believe me? invite me into your group. infuse health ^5 + OoB. oops?
Fenris Wulf
I like to hit a town with my Ranger and announce "LFG for "Outcast Group" only. Necros, Ranger and Mesmers Only.
Well of blood is as good as healing breeze anyday, and heal everyone!
Well of blood is as good as healing breeze anyday, and heal everyone!
VGJustice
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fenris Wulf
Well of blood is as good as healing breeze anyday, and heal everyone!
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Tijger
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Makkert
*laughs while he runs away, while every ranger shoots him in the back.*
running from a ranger. that is why the put the 'range' in 'ranger' :P |
Red Aideen
Iron Mines mission Infusion run, my husband (Monk) tried 6 times with 6 different Warriors to make this run they all failed way short of the Seer. So seeing him upset I say,"I'll run you!" He laughed, I joined his party and I showed them all! My little R/Mo run it with Doge and Storm Chaser. He was laughing his butt off as I ran there no problem. I have done ran that run many times for my Guildies. I can never find a group either but my Guild loves me so really I am never alone.
Sol_Vie
My ranger has trouble getting into groups too, but I love him all the same. I once heard from a warrior "Shut up ranger, you're just tagging along. You're not doing any damage." Turns out I was doing just as much average damage as he was... and I was poisoning them so I was technically doing more. 
As for mesmers, well not having one I can't speak from personal experience however I can still speak of the wonders of playing in a team with one. Oh my, how I love them. I was in a group going to FoW and one of the monks snidely commented "Don't take that mesmer. A blade of grass will kill them" We all chuckled when the mesmer was the one to survive and res the monks so they could res everyone else. With that same group, though on a different run, we whipped the monsters in the FoW into shape. I don't think more than one or two people died in the group that second run, and my oh my was it fun.
Mesmers and rangers are truly a magnificent thing. (Necros too, I just didn't have anything about them in here )
As for mesmers, well not having one I can't speak from personal experience however I can still speak of the wonders of playing in a team with one. Oh my, how I love them. I was in a group going to FoW and one of the monks snidely commented "Don't take that mesmer. A blade of grass will kill them" We all chuckled when the mesmer was the one to survive and res the monks so they could res everyone else. With that same group, though on a different run, we whipped the monsters in the FoW into shape. I don't think more than one or two people died in the group that second run, and my oh my was it fun.
Mesmers and rangers are truly a magnificent thing. (Necros too, I just didn't have anything about them in here
)
Arathorn5000
Believe it or not, I play a ranger mostly, and even I wouldn't want one for a PUG group in Grenth's Footprint....I'd much rather take a minion master necro or a mesmer to shut down monks. Of course rangers can shut down monks, but it takes near perfect timing, and how many badass interrupt rangers do you expect to find for a PUG? Rangers have lots of fun skills and are great to play, but overall I consider them a weak link for a party that wants to go out and trash an entire area full of monsters.
jsaradhi
i dont care wat most people say about rangers...but i did all but the final assault quest with henchies...all the groups that i got into sucked big time, but i cleared SF with henchies. It was so much fun and peaceful doing it with henchies...no1 being a d!ckhead and no1 leaving in the middle and no1 being Leeroy Jenkins! You just need to b a lill smart when u play with henchies and u can do most of the quests with henchies...jusy my 2cents!
Shinomori
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Arathorn5000
Rangers have lots of fun skills and are great to play, but overall I consider them a weak link for a party that wants to go out and trash an entire area full of monsters.
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wsmcasey
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Arathorn5000
Believe it or not, I play a ranger mostly, and even I wouldn't want one for a PUG group in Grenth's Footprint....I'd much rather take a minion master necro or a mesmer to shut down monks. Of course rangers can shut down monks, but it takes near perfect timing, and how many badass interrupt rangers do you expect to find for a PUG? Rangers have lots of fun skills and are great to play, but overall I consider them a weak link for a party that wants to go out and trash an entire area full of monsters.
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sorrlymesentoe
I AN NECRO ULTIMITO
i maakkee lotsa minnions i do
also i love the monks who cant be resed after they die
so fun to res them over and over and over and make more and more and more minnions out of there stupid a**es
MUHAHAHAAA
anyways i have a ranger/ele lvl 13 or something, and im tired of not geting into grps, i do about 60 dmg average per hit (kindle arrows, conjure flame and dual shot) PLUS i can poison, I MEAN COME ON!!! WHAT CAN U NOT LIKE ABOUT THAT
i maakkee lotsa minnions i do
also i love the monks who cant be resed after they die
so fun to res them over and over and over and make more and more and more minnions out of there stupid a**es
MUHAHAHAAA
anyways i have a ranger/ele lvl 13 or something, and im tired of not geting into grps, i do about 60 dmg average per hit (kindle arrows, conjure flame and dual shot) PLUS i can poison, I MEAN COME ON!!! WHAT CAN U NOT LIKE ABOUT THAT
Ooma
Quote:
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Originally Posted by sorrlymesentoe
I AN NECRO ULTIMITO
i maakkee lotsa minnions i do also i love the monks who cant be resed after they die so fun to res them over and over and over and make more and more and more minnions out of there stupid a**es MUHAHAHAAA anyways i have a ranger/ele lvl 13 or something, and im tired of not geting into grps, i do about 60 dmg average per hit (kindle arrows, conjure flame and dual shot) PLUS i can poison, I MEAN COME ON!!! WHAT CAN U NOT LIKE ABOUT THAT |
[EDIT] added :-
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Arathorn5000
...Of course rangers can shut down monks, but it takes near perfect timing, and how many badass interrupt rangers do you expect to find for a PUG? Rangers have lots of fun skills and are great to play, but overall I consider them a weak link for a party that wants to go out and trash an entire area full of monsters.
|
A ranger doesn't even have to be an interrupter in these areas, I can get rid of priests pretty quickly with poison and a few traps, in seconds with a good warrior; but in PUGS I honestly think that when I'm using the warrior as cover and lay my two traps and cast Healing Spring behind him, dealing 100+ damage and giving him 60+ hlth every 2 secs, the Warrior thinks he's scoring critical-life-stealing-I'm-such-a-god hits
j/k - I know some great Warriors, but just making the point that there are idiots in, and ignorance of, every class. Try playing with some of the rangers in your guilds and maybe you'll gain a better understanding of what they are capable of.
As for "trash an entire area full of monsters"...I can do it with henchies. This seems to be a general problem with people in this game...lets get it done as quickly as possible...the only (?) reason (imo) that any quest mission fails...the majority of them anyway. Hey next time take a ranger, it might only take another 20 mins...
sorrlymesentoe
maybe lol
I PREACH THE TRUTH
MUHAHAHAA
I PREACH THE TRUTH
MUHAHAHAA
One and Two
My ranger owned pve.
It is retarded, however, that people would invite me then uninvite me...too bad I saw them spamming a group after I finished the mission sometimes...LMAO~
Warriors piss me off....the cross the line when I'm trying to pull. What happens? Errrrrr blame me for the pull, yeah?
Then there's my monk, who gets 2430590 blind invites the moment stepping in. I choose the group with 7/8 people and a good class setup (something unusual, not 2W, 2E, 2Mo).
Now seriously, if everybody calls my targets instead of thinking 1v1 every monster is the way to go, they would realize how easy pve is. Hell, random arena would be easy if people called targets.
It is retarded, however, that people would invite me then uninvite me...too bad I saw them spamming a group after I finished the mission sometimes...LMAO~
Warriors piss me off....the cross the line when I'm trying to pull. What happens? Errrrrr blame me for the pull, yeah?
Then there's my monk, who gets 2430590 blind invites the moment stepping in. I choose the group with 7/8 people and a good class setup (something unusual, not 2W, 2E, 2Mo).
Now seriously, if everybody calls my targets instead of thinking 1v1 every monster is the way to go, they would realize how easy pve is. Hell, random arena would be easy if people called targets.
Aetherfox
Shadowspawn X = your damage ranger would be far better off using Judges Insight damage buff instead of conjure flame. Conjures only add a small amount of damage and is resisted by absorption and armour, but I have seen JI buff damage by 50% or more against standard warrior types, even 150% sometimes against melee units... and over 100% to 300% versus bosses and other specially hardened targets. also this frees up your elemental bowstring to become a 5/1 vampiric, to do an additional 5 damage per target. final benefit, you don't get screwed if JI is shattered, since the cooldown is only 10 seconds with a 17 second duration, whereas if conjure gets shattered you have to wait another 60 seconds to recast. and you can carry a hard res for your party if everyone dies... there's really no reason to run a R/E when an R/Mo does it so much better.
i regularly achieve 400 damage per barrage shot in the final Ring of Fire missions, and barrage fires on every shot... beat that for damage. = ) holy damage for the win, and you'll be amazed when you fire on masses of undead minions =p
i regularly achieve 400 damage per barrage shot in the final Ring of Fire missions, and barrage fires on every shot... beat that for damage. = ) holy damage for the win, and you'll be amazed when you fire on masses of undead minions =p
cookiehoarder
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker
Since spirit spamming has been nerfed, Rangers are worthless...
/Throws gas on the fire and runs! |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by sorrlymesentoe
I AN NECRO ULTIMITO
i maakkee lotsa minnions i do also i love the monks who cant be resed after they die so fun to res them over and over and over and make more and more and more minnions out of there stupid a**es MUHAHAHAAA anyways i have a ranger/ele lvl 13 or something, and im tired of not geting into grps, i do about 60 dmg average per hit (kindle arrows, conjure flame and dual shot) PLUS i can poison, I MEAN COME ON!!! WHAT CAN U NOT LIKE ABOUT THAT |
trelloskilos
I played SF with my guildies on my Ranger character. I left the traps at home, equipped my best poisoner's build with interrupts and we collectively pwned!!