rank is really just a weak measurement. But it is also quite decent.
It's like in real life - if you apply for a job. Half of the people are sorted out by the first look at the material they sent in. Same with rank. It is not a very good measurement, but it works good enough to filter about 70% of bad people. Sure, it filters also good people, but after you applied this 'rank filter' you are more likely to get good players.
It is nothing more, nothing less.
So a 'rank 3+' just means: someone who played tombs enough to know how it works.
Sure it is unfair somehow, but you need some kind of filter. Otherwise you would only play with friends and friends of friends. Because you don't want some completly new people in your team.
and please stop that hate 'PvP <-> PvE'.
Please consider:
PvP got /fame emote
PvE got FoW armor
Why Rank is hurting the community and why we should boycott groups that ask for it...
Schorny
balinor limad
i thiink that a combination of rank and qquestioning is the way to make good teams without rank noobs can say there excellent and won the hall 1000 times (im aware im exagerating please dont flame me for it)
Ristaron
I believe that rank is all to one-sided towards people who PvP a lot and luckily get good groups.
I take my monk to Tombs and I instantly get 10 blind invites (all of which I discard when I don't see any advertisement from the party leader for needing monks). After that I put up my own advertisement: "Healer looking for an organized group with TS -- message me please". This means, simply, the team needs a strategy (spiker, KD/AS, etc) and needs TS. I immediately get 2 or 3 invites with no message.
I try again, another 2 or 3.
I'm not patient enough to wait for the perfect team, so I pick one that looks half-decent (and NOT the single warrior trying to get me to join him - when I advertise I'm looking for a group I mean more than 1), and I ask if they have TS when I join.
"No"
-Leave party-
2 minutes later repeat process.
Finally I see an advertisement along the lines of "[build] group of guildees needs a monk to roll, we have TS". So I send my join request and I get in.
I say Hi and ask for the TS adress, and they reply with "Rank?"
I don't spend hours upon hours wasting my time with PUGs in Tombs, I have a few PvP friends I've played Tombs with several times (out of around 40 matches I have 17 fame). It doesn't matter that I am a highly competent healer (I get compliments from every half-decent or great team I play in), I still don't have rank.
"I don't do Tombs often enough to have a rank yet"
-Kicked from party-
This one time a rank 3 group invited me, and asked for my rank. Fed up of getting the turned up nose for not doing Tombs enough, I said "3".
"Emote please"
*Sigh* -Leave party-
My guild is 13 people, half of them aren't ascended yet and so they don't have access to the great skills - nor are they highly interested in PvP yet because they don't have good experience with it. I play with 5 people normally for Team Arenas (not at the same time, obviously, five people including myself are interested is what I mean), and we get some decent builds and wins. But we still can't get a full Tombs team.
I'm planning to get the five of us together in Tombs, pick up some KD/AS warriors, and try a mixed team for some practice. Two of us are healers and two others can make IWEP mesmer/warriors. We also have two Area Of Effect curse-master characters at our disposal if need be for a full AoE team...
I take my monk to Tombs and I instantly get 10 blind invites (all of which I discard when I don't see any advertisement from the party leader for needing monks). After that I put up my own advertisement: "Healer looking for an organized group with TS -- message me please". This means, simply, the team needs a strategy (spiker, KD/AS, etc) and needs TS. I immediately get 2 or 3 invites with no message.
I try again, another 2 or 3.
I'm not patient enough to wait for the perfect team, so I pick one that looks half-decent (and NOT the single warrior trying to get me to join him - when I advertise I'm looking for a group I mean more than 1), and I ask if they have TS when I join.
"No"
-Leave party-
2 minutes later repeat process.
Finally I see an advertisement along the lines of "[build] group of guildees needs a monk to roll, we have TS". So I send my join request and I get in.
I say Hi and ask for the TS adress, and they reply with "Rank?"
I don't spend hours upon hours wasting my time with PUGs in Tombs, I have a few PvP friends I've played Tombs with several times (out of around 40 matches I have 17 fame). It doesn't matter that I am a highly competent healer (I get compliments from every half-decent or great team I play in), I still don't have rank.
"I don't do Tombs often enough to have a rank yet"
-Kicked from party-
This one time a rank 3 group invited me, and asked for my rank. Fed up of getting the turned up nose for not doing Tombs enough, I said "3".
"Emote please"
*Sigh* -Leave party-
My guild is 13 people, half of them aren't ascended yet and so they don't have access to the great skills - nor are they highly interested in PvP yet because they don't have good experience with it. I play with 5 people normally for Team Arenas (not at the same time, obviously, five people including myself are interested is what I mean), and we get some decent builds and wins. But we still can't get a full Tombs team.
I'm planning to get the five of us together in Tombs, pick up some KD/AS warriors, and try a mixed team for some practice. Two of us are healers and two others can make IWEP mesmer/warriors. We also have two Area Of Effect curse-master characters at our disposal if need be for a full AoE team...
Mumoto
/me doesn't know what this is all about ;p
what the hell are those shortcut-names and wtf do you want to acchieve with this? O_o
what the hell are those shortcut-names and wtf do you want to acchieve with this? O_o
Signet of Humility
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Orochim4ru
Do not exist unless they're on their second account. PvE does NOT prepare you for PvP.
|
Incorrect
most peopel thought sB was all rank 9+
well theyre not
one of their Elite Strategist is what rank 3?which is really nothing.
he has the most superb skills at planning through gvg / tombs
thats why
rakn doesnt mean anything to me
ive seen a couple rank 6-9 who are well terrible... no offense
but as me i get in groups of 6--9+'s
which is not bad
but we do as good as i do with a non ranked pug that i teach/tell what to do
ive done this started a no rank req group
got to hoh 5 times
but all lost for less cordination
u just gotta tell them what to do if u dont well its just u
scamPOR
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by wsmcasey
There are many missions and quests that require you to keep a ghost alive, and its not very forgiving when you have to start that mission or quest over.
I've seen some instances in tombs where its 4 teams and the first 2 teams fight until one of the teams only have 1 player left and that 1 player runs away and waits to come back and rez his party when the winning team moves on to the next team to fight. Why does it feel like hardcore PvP'rs think they are better than PvE'rs in this game? It's always been that way. |
Don't get me wrong, I used to monk in PVE (terribly boring) but pvp monking is something I will leave to the gifted and those who like frusteration. In a good tombs group the monks won't feel much pressure until they face a similarly good group, vs a bad group the monks rarely need to strain too much.
Hardcore pvpers ARE on average much better at PVP then hardcore pver's. How can you even compare the two? Keeping the tank alive vs monsters that rarely remove enchants and hardly purely target you is not the same as keeping a team alive when everyone wants to shut you down. Try tombs vs a good shutdown group and tell me its easier then life + essence bonding a tank and letting the monsters all aggro him. If you think pve monking is hard your team is most likely doing it wrong.
Akathrielah
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Guizzy
Read above. Asking questions is much better for that than rank, and it's barely longer.
|
Rank definately isn't the be all and end all when determining skills, all it is, as I said, is a convienent metric to see if the person you are trying to pick up has any tombs pvp experience at all.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by wsmcasey
Why does it feel like hardcore PvP'rs think they are better than PvE'rs in this game? It's always been that way.
|
At the same time, you find alot more immature people in PvE as well, people who train another purposely to get drops, people who fight and squabble over equipment, people who have little or no idea what they are really doing at all.
At the very beginning I used to actively group with people to do quests/missons in post-searing ascalon, after several bad incidents I simply shrugged and used henchmen from there on in- never looked back.
In PvP this is quickly rooted out, sure you can farm fame 1 point at a time with bad IWAY groups, of course by the time you get to rank6, you have grandchildren by then. So in general, with people of higher rank (6-9) you are assured of some level of competetance. You of course have people with silly overinflated egos, but you find that everywhere, pve and pvp both.
Guizzy
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Akathrielah
Not particularly, how many questions that would need to be asked to determine a competant player varies from role to role, and in general I can spend 15 minutes asking questions to a player and getting their answers before I would feel confident that he won't be a COMPLETE dud.
|
- What kind of character are you running?
- In the field, how do you do that?
You don't have to even understand every type of character to see when someone is not worth having on a team. It's not about him running what you want him to run; it's about him understanding what he runs. It's where the average PUG fails.
If you have an answer like "Tank" for the first question; it's insta-kick.
If you have an answer like "I kill them; lol!" for the second; it's insta-kick.
The rest is open to interpretation.
=HT=Ingram
I don't like rank either, but I don't begrudge the people that have it to have the opportunity to flaunt it. I avoid tombs anymore... unless with my best of friends or something... why? cause its full of rude and rankist potty mouthed jerks normally. If you are not at least a rank 3 or better your less then trash to them. no matter how you play. So basically I just do not care anymore. eventually they will either be bored and leave Guild wars (lets hope so) or move on to a new tombs like content in chapter two.
Draco Hunt
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Mumoto
/me doesn't know what this is all about ;p
what the hell are those shortcut-names and wtf do you want to acchieve with this? O_o |
I also had the problem that i couldnt get into teams in Tomb because i had and still have zero rank
(Irefuse to play IWAY because it doesnt show your real skill)
But since a week or so i am in a PRO guild so i am going to be alright.
But still the whole rank thing is a problem for most people.
Banning rank totaly is not a very good solution on this matter.
I think the comunity should change.
Take people with rank 1 in your party.
Give them advice on the skills they should bring.
Do several runs with them to get them used to the skills.
And keep pointing them on mistakes they make.
This way the community gets an even more competitive character.
More real good players=More FUN!!!
Fantus
Quote:
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Originally Posted by scamPOR
I respectfully disagree with the OP in some senses. While he is right that Rank alone is not a very good measure of skill, rank IS a decent measuring unit.
|
Rank is not a good measurement unit for skill. It gives you a VERY SLIGHT idea, nothing more. What the OP suggested works way better: TALK to the people you are about to join your group. At most times, idiot players will give themselves away after like 10 seconds or so.
Quote:
| Joining a pvp guild never hurts as most of them will teach you tombs or gvg also. |
Axle_Fieshe
I just lied about my rank so i could get into good groups. I got my rank up fair quick like that. May not be honest, but i knew i was a decent player.
Fantus
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Axle_Fieshe
I just lied about my rank so i could get into good groups. I got my rank up fair quick like that. May not be honest, but i knew i was a decent player.
|
Makkert
make yourself stand out of the crowd
people ask for rank just to filter the crap de la crap.
They don't know you. They may not want to invest to much time in teaching you, after all they also just want to play like you.
So what do you do as a low ranked player?
make yourself noticed in different ways. a bland 'order necro lfg' will not have high response rate.
Add some intelligence to your message, add some humor to it.
also: guildgroups are guildgroups. small chance you will get in there.
some PUG management tactics can be found here:
http://sof-guild.com/index.php?Page=pugmanagement
I suggest you read it. It was written for PvE, but much applies to PvP also.
people ask for rank just to filter the crap de la crap.
They don't know you. They may not want to invest to much time in teaching you, after all they also just want to play like you.
So what do you do as a low ranked player?
make yourself noticed in different ways. a bland 'order necro lfg' will not have high response rate.
Add some intelligence to your message, add some humor to it.
also: guildgroups are guildgroups. small chance you will get in there.
some PUG management tactics can be found here:
http://sof-guild.com/index.php?Page=pugmanagement
I suggest you read it. It was written for PvE, but much applies to PvP also.
Fantus
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Makkert
make yourself stand out of the crowd
So what do you do as a low ranked player? make yourself noticed in different ways. a bland 'order necro lfg' will not have high response rate. Add some intelligence to your message, add some humor to it. |
1. post: <insert humorous LFG message here>
2. response: "Sounds good - What's your rank?"
Makkert
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fantus
Doesn't work, too:
1. post: <insert humorous LFG message here> 2. response: "Sounds good - What's your rank?" |
hmm.
Start your own group? after all, the claim made in this tread is that rank doesn't matter. So you can take players that are also lowly ranked and play?
I refer to the previously posted PUG management guide to prevent the crap de la crap from entering your group.
Kassad
I started to pvp the first week GW came out.. few days ago i got rank 3. More of 70% PVE, 20% Random Arena and 10% Tombs. I could really never get a group, Me "Monk Lfg, I want to heal!!!!" Some guy "Sounds good, we want heals!!! what rank are j00?" As soon as i told them im rank 2 hes like "Srry no n00bs in grp, go away newb!!!1."
One time I finally got picked by a group that made it to halls, didnt win though. I thought id show them im not a newb and im not useless, so I used met shower and fire storm, and ran in and used pheonix.. I swear I killed 6 in a few seconds.. the whole team was like "GJ, man j00 ownz!!", got to halls and lost to some guild.
Now I have no prob finding a group.. just that they all suck. Kinda sad ive got 198 fame and never won Halls, wouldnt mind winning for a change. Rank only means exp and knows how things go down, Doesnt mean they are 1337 or "G0dly".
One time I finally got picked by a group that made it to halls, didnt win though. I thought id show them im not a newb and im not useless, so I used met shower and fire storm, and ran in and used pheonix.. I swear I killed 6 in a few seconds.. the whole team was like "GJ, man j00 ownz!!", got to halls and lost to some guild.
Now I have no prob finding a group.. just that they all suck. Kinda sad ive got 198 fame and never won Halls, wouldnt mind winning for a change. Rank only means exp and knows how things go down, Doesnt mean they are 1337 or "G0dly".
Sister Rosette
Rank req filters out the tards that saw the build online and
are just trying it for the first time. Or the idiots that go in
without a pet because 'I N33DZ SOWRD SKYLLZZZZONEONESHIFTELEVEN'
/un-signed
are just trying it for the first time. Or the idiots that go in
without a pet because 'I N33DZ SOWRD SKYLLZZZZONEONESHIFTELEVEN'
/un-signed
Fantus
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Sister Rosette
Rank req filters out the tards that saw the build online and
are just trying it for the first time. Or the idiots that go in without a pet because 'I N33DZ SOWRD SKYLLZZZZONEONESHIFTELEVEN' |
Guizzy
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Sister Rosette
Rank req filters out the tards that saw the build online and
are just trying it for the first time. Or the idiots that go in without a pet because 'I N33DZ SOWRD SKYLLZZZZONEONESHIFTELEVEN' /un-signed |
Yesterday, I had a warrior that asked if we wanted him. I decided I'd give him an chance and ask what he does, even if I didn't need anymore warriors. When I asked what kind of warrior he was, he answered: "Wat? Wut kind of war I am? I'm War ranger!" I persisted; but what kind of warrior; what do you do as a warrior? "well; I'm a wurrior; a tank! lol!"
Needless to say he was not picked. I proceeded to complete that PUGs, which won 3 rounds before it was beaten by guild group. Most in the group weren't even rank 2.
If you don't have the time to ask a few questions to the players before inviting them, you are already doomed.
And a bad player absolutely never, EVER (this is not even debatable) understand his character. Period. You don't need to understand his yourself. It's very obvious if he doesn't understand it. A player that admits one of his choice is weird is usually a great player; he understands what is usually expected of him. A player who can't explain why he has such or such Elite is NOT a good choice.
If you are not able to distinguish a good player from a bad players in a few questions, you are a pitiful leader indeed.
You might think you'll get better quality if you use both rank and questions to choose, but think of the harm you are doing to the community. New players being shunned because they don't have rank; not wanting to play PvP anymore, simply because you feel your is soooo important that you should use a flawed criteria.
Zhou Feng
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Guizzy
I've been seeing all these threads about IWAY or other FotM, and I've admit to participating to many of them. But the result is always the same: a group of person defends IWAY (or FotM) saying it's beatable, and another group discrediting it saying it's too prevalent. But few have approached the real reason behind all these problems: rank!
You see; rank is often used as a measure for groups to weed out bad players. It has been somewhat useful in the past, before the problems that are now rampant appeared. Now, it only splits the community and stifles innovation. (Wow; it sounds as if I'm about to start a lecture on patents!) Let's take example of any new player to the tombs. He arrives into American District 3, and all he sees are "GLF Order Necro for IWAY", "Rank 4+ IWAY W/Mo LFG". He doesn't have much rank, so he does not manage to get into any group there. He changes districts and instantly gets picked by a blind invite PUG. They don't even get past the unworthy. No rank. He gets kicked from group (or group disbands by itself), and he gets into another random blind invite. These ones are lucky and get past the unworthy. He gets to fight against a IWAY team. He loses; still no rank. Noticed anything? Yeah, I've never said he was a bad player. It just turned out he was only picked by bad groups. Why? BECAUSE HE HAS NO RANK! Of course, IWAY groups are not really good by themselves. But they require a minimum amount of synergy to beat. It's not a matter of being "skilled" by yourself. It's a matter of teamplay. The kind of teamplay groups that usually take Rank 0s without asking DO NOT HAVE! Of course; he could start playing IWAY to get some fame, but keep in mind this is not the way the game was supposed to be played. Groups are supposed to be diverse and there are supposed to be experimentation with skill builds. If we allow a "meta-game" concern such as fame dictate the way we play; we will on long-term kill the community. So I call for a boycott of groups that ask for rank before invite. There is a much better way to get good players: just ask questions about what they do and (more importantly) why they do it. If he can't answer correctly but seem a decently intelligent person; you can always give some friendly and non-condescending advice. A rank 0 with a good understanding of his build is much better than a rank 4 who has been playing exclusively IWAY up until recently. It's short, and you will get much better players. And if anyone at ArenaNet sees this thread. Please think about what Rank does to the community. Maybe you'll find it's not worth it. |
I could go IWAY but that would be so cheap and cheesy IF Im going to get my fame I want to do it right... and with my healer or warrior or necro and no I wont run an IWAY necro.
This comes to the situation you mentioned unless you have rank or are a healer you dont get into good groups. But Im betting the IWAY fashion is bout to die off and soemthing like Necro FOC Spikers and Ranger Int Spikers will be the new thing (hopefully), in the meantime I sure wish Arenas would allow some Rank gain after so many Arena fights but oh well... you can't have everything.
EDIT
to Sister: No not anymore seeing as it "filters" me (and other good players) because I have no "rank" thus catalogued as a "noob" yet Guilds or Organized PUGs with ts/vent who have picked me up haven't whined or argued about my healing prowess and I still get picked up again. Except most of me mates are also tired of IWAY too and well hit Comp Arenas too
By the way to the OP Ill add your name so whenever you need a healer or a warrior tank you can bug me up. My necro isnt 100% feasible yet I still need to practice the FOC effects. Oh and Sister Im adding you too. :P
Knight of Eternal Darknes
there not gonna take away fame and rank if they did, whats gonna stop people from just saying there experience in tombs? you'll get crappy ass noobs who don't know shit and mostly the only people you'll be getting anywhere with is your guild members and by having these stupid people in your groups your not going to be able to run the more complex of groups
Sister Rosette
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Guizzy
Stuff
|
They ask for Rank # and up. This eliminates the need for lengthy questioning.
Everyone knows what they're getting into when they join. You don't need to
hold someone's hand through how IWAY works. You distinguish which nec is
gonna be tainted and which is gonna be order and you go.
Questioning someone all day is fine and dandy until we're only 10 minutes
away from losing favor to Korea. Then you ask for #+ rank people, get em',
and the shit is on.
Fantus
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Knight of Eternal Darknes
there not gonna take away fame and rank if they did, whats gonna stop people from just saying there experience in tombs? you'll get crappy ass noobs who don't know shit and mostly the only people you'll be getting anywhere with is your guild members and by having these stupid people in your groups your not going to be able to run the more complex of groups
|
They don't need to take rank away, the problem is NOT the rank by itself, but the people who (mis)use it as the only indicator to judge people's PvP skills. I don't really think rank was meant to do that. If it was, you would probably get rank awards for doing GvG and Arenas, too.
Guizzy
No one really reads what I say, don't they?
Did I say 10 minutes of questionning?
2 questions has always been enough.
"What do you do?"
"How do you do it?"
That's it.
And if you really think rank removes the need for organisation, then you must fail often indeed! Unless you are playing a precise FotM (which I've precisely put out of the conversation as soon as the original post), your players NEED to know what everyone will be doing, and what is expected of them.
Try it; you must have a lot of free time to gain all that fame, so use that copious free time to try what I've said. Two questions (you might want to get more specific according to role you are filling) before inviting, no rank asking and no precise group build (Balanced group). Don't demand that they run specific skills; ask roles, not builds. Of course; be honest and don't jump on every dumbass just to try to prove me wrong. You'll be pleasantly surprised.
Please, read the posts in the thread before posting. If you are not able to distinguish "crappy ass noobs" with a few questions, you are the most pathetic leader I've ever seen and should never, ever go remotely close to a leading position.
Did I say 10 minutes of questionning?
2 questions has always been enough.
"What do you do?"
"How do you do it?"
That's it.
And if you really think rank removes the need for organisation, then you must fail often indeed! Unless you are playing a precise FotM (which I've precisely put out of the conversation as soon as the original post), your players NEED to know what everyone will be doing, and what is expected of them.
Try it; you must have a lot of free time to gain all that fame, so use that copious free time to try what I've said. Two questions (you might want to get more specific according to role you are filling) before inviting, no rank asking and no precise group build (Balanced group). Don't demand that they run specific skills; ask roles, not builds. Of course; be honest and don't jump on every dumbass just to try to prove me wrong. You'll be pleasantly surprised.
Quote:
| there not gonna take away fame and rank if they did, whats gonna stop people from just saying there experience in tombs? you'll get crappy ass noobs who don't know shit and mostly the only people you'll be getting anywhere with is your guild members and by having these stupid people in your groups your not going to be able to run the more complex of groups |
Sister Rosette
You make a good point Guizzy, and I suppose I should have elaborated more.
I was referring to 'Specific FoTM' Rank #+
You shouldn't have to ask a W/R IWAY with rank 3+ what skills they are
packing.
I was referring to 'Specific FoTM' Rank #+
You shouldn't have to ask a W/R IWAY with rank 3+ what skills they are
packing.
Orochim4ru
Quote:
| thought id show them im not a newb and im not useless, so I used met shower and fire storm |
Guizzy
Indeed; horrible answers might ensue if that was needed.
"I R a BEAST MASTAAA"
It's specifically to fight rampant FotM'ing that I'm suggesting rank be removed.
You haven't read enough... He used firestorm as a monk!
Which makes me believe this is a joke.
"I R a BEAST MASTAAA"
It's specifically to fight rampant FotM'ing that I'm suggesting rank be removed.
Quote:
| You used firestorm. Don't ask to get into R6+ groups with that. |
Which makes me believe this is a joke.
tomcruisejr
rank prevents new talents with lotsa potentials to break in through the pvp scene and makes some (bad) pvpers gain more fame.
/rank = HoH's answer to UW's globs of ectoplasm.
/rank = HoH's answer to UW's globs of ectoplasm.
Orochim4ru
Quote:
|
You haven't read enough... He used firestorm as a monk! Which makes me believe this is a joke. |
Quote:
| rank prevents new talents with lotsa potentials to break in through the pvp scene and makes some (bad) pvpers gain more fame. |
You don't hold halls with pugs. that's a general rule of thumb.
tomcruisejr
my point is its bad for the new players. the one who buys the game and installs it for the first time.
and for the pve people who wanna break into the pvp scene.
and for the pvp people who dont wanna wait for a group for 23454 hours.
and for the gvg people who thought about doing tombs on their own.
that's why FOTM overpwrd wtf builds are made coz some people belonging to above category wanna get fame. and they jump to the band wagon. and where is the actual skill development if they are just doing the same recipe builds?
rank 6-9 people are just a (elitist) minority in GW. which means they are not the game.
and for the pve people who wanna break into the pvp scene.
and for the pvp people who dont wanna wait for a group for 23454 hours.
and for the gvg people who thought about doing tombs on their own.
that's why FOTM overpwrd wtf builds are made coz some people belonging to above category wanna get fame. and they jump to the band wagon. and where is the actual skill development if they are just doing the same recipe builds?
rank 6-9 people are just a (elitist) minority in GW. which means they are not the game.
Guizzy
Many people ARE good, but are kept down because of rank. How can they prove it? They don't play in reasonably good groups because of rank, so they don't get any rank!
If no one wants to give them a chance to GAIN that rank because "You don't hold halls with pugs. that's a general rule of thumbs.", the community will die. Again, Rank DOES NOT equal skill. I've said this times after times.
If no one wants to give them a chance to GAIN that rank because "You don't hold halls with pugs. that's a general rule of thumbs.", the community will die. Again, Rank DOES NOT equal skill. I've said this times after times.
Orochim4ru
Quote:
|
my point is its bad for the new players. the one who buys the game and installs it for the first time. and for the pve people who wanna break into the pvp scene. and for the pvp people who dont wanna wait for a group for 23454 hours. and for the gvg people who thought about doing tombs on their own. |
Not happening.
Quote:
| Many people ARE good, but are kept down because of rank. How can they prove it? They don't play in reasonably good groups because of rank, so they don't get any rank! |
Oh wait, does that mean that rank 2 players can get to know each other and play with each other until they get better, and thus form groups together? oh i think they can!
Your suggestion isn't that r0-5 players get recognized: i was in a rank 30 guild at rank 4 because they saw that i was skilled. Now i'm in prav (which i joined at R5, btw, which is equivalent to rank 3 in terms of /rank), and i've been holding halls almost every day.
My personal example proves that rank isn't the sole determining factor in choice, but when we've got 7/8 people waiting to go, we're more likely to call on an available rank 9 than an available rank 3.
When you reach the top, you will have the freedom of choice as well. Until then, stop whining and get some skills (and get vent too. i barely see TS at high end pvp anymore.)
tomcruisejr
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Orochim4ru
Kay, so you're basically saying that you want to get all the best players in the game to play with a bunch of people who barely know how to pvp.
Not happening. |
here's a preview
http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/7...usemote8et.jpg
are you sure that those rank 6-9-25 people are "the best players in the game" ?
sure rank is a fast way of weeding out. no questions about that.
anyhow, hah. :P
Orochim4ru
Quote:
| you arent seeing the long term effect |
That's skill, not dumb luck. Its not the build either, because our build has been widely copied. Every time we come up against our mirror match, we trounce them, because we're BETTER then they are. Most of our matches to halls turn out to be flawless, and we've never lost a relic run.
I dont' think that's the watermark of a crappy bunch of players. The fact that we repeatedly hold halls against the same groups and players is also telling. At the start of most hoh maps, there's a huge spam of people talking, because we all know each other: elitism? or is it just that we're the elite, and we deserve to hold the elite positions in the game?
Knight of Eternal Darknes
it's not that hard to find good pvpers, when i started my first guild i know what you mean about not giving other people a chance to get out there, one of my guild members who usually ran the pvp only did gvg really, and we ended up getting to like rank 55 back then, yeah there is a lot of good pvpers without high rank but why are we gonna take away the fame system because you can't get into these groups, if your good you should be able to start your own group and ask which skills the players are using and just adjust them or keep there skills and give them advise on how to do things if they don't know how, when you talk about being a good pvpers its mainly when to use there skills and because this game ultimately doesn't give you all that much control on how fast you use your skills it's mainly how you use your skills with other ones
Guizzy
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| I know the people from 6-9 are the best players in the game because i PLAY WITH THEM and we WIN HALLS. LOTS. in the past 2 weeks, we've failed to get to halls on only 2 runs, and we've failed to cap halls maybe 4 times out of 15+ runs. |
Quote:
| That's skill, not dumb luck. Its not the build either, because our build has been widely copied. Every time we come up against our mirror match, we trounce them, because we're BETTER then they are. |
Quote:
| That's skill, not dumb luck. Its not the build either, because our build has been widely copied. Every time we come up against our mirror match, we trounce them, because we're BETTER then they are. |
Man, really you need to brush up on your reading comprehension.
You have not understood a word I've said in all that ridiculously large thread. Read it again.
Quote:
| if your good you should be able to start your own group |
Next time someone post here, he better have read the thread before repeating arguments I've disproven time after time after time...
Pro-rank argument: But the ranked players are better!
Anti-rank argument: You have no idea; try unranked in an organised group.
Pro-rank: But they'll be bad!
Anti-rank argument: Try it.
...
----
But I agree on skill usage being the most important part. That said; skill ability does not come with rank. Rank does not even mean experience; as some people never learn. And some people learn very fast. And those people, well, they can't go at their speed because the only groups that will accept to take them are blind invites with fiery dragon sword whammos (complete with Mending and Healing Signet).
I'm doing my part to change that; I make my own groups and am very broad-minded with my invites. I am getting much success (every group I've made that way was only beaten by less than 300-ranked guilds).
What is going on here is that some people are trying to justify what would be easily comparable to marking poor people (as well as putting them into specific "poor" gettho) so that the rich (living inside guarded areas) will be able to avoid living with them. The justification given is exactly the same.
wsmcasey
A-net should give you some way to tell people what rank you are if your rank 0-2. It doesn't have to be an emote, but at least maybe you could click on your rank or fame to show a group what level your at. I find it really unfair that I'm a rank 2 and have some experience under my belt now, but I'm still regarded as if I'm rank 0 because I have no way to prove my rank. If rank 3 is the magic number because you can show an emote to prove it, it only makes sense to have some way to prove your rank no matter what your number is.
example:
At 16 years old you can officially get a drivers license, this not only enables you to drive a car, but it all so provides pertinent information to other people. There are many things that you cannot do until you've reached a certain age, and a drivers license is required as general proof that you have reached a competent age of responsibility. Even though you can't legally drink till your 21, you may be 20 years old and far more experienced at handling situations than a 16 year old. In legal situations a 20 year old would be handled differently than a 16 year old as well. Wouldn't it be odd if we were allowed to drive at the age of 16 without a license and no proof of identification, and you didn't officially get a license until the age of 21? There would be a serious lack of structure in our society. Guild Wars lacks structure.
example:
At 16 years old you can officially get a drivers license, this not only enables you to drive a car, but it all so provides pertinent information to other people. There are many things that you cannot do until you've reached a certain age, and a drivers license is required as general proof that you have reached a competent age of responsibility. Even though you can't legally drink till your 21, you may be 20 years old and far more experienced at handling situations than a 16 year old. In legal situations a 20 year old would be handled differently than a 16 year old as well. Wouldn't it be odd if we were allowed to drive at the age of 16 without a license and no proof of identification, and you didn't officially get a license until the age of 21? There would be a serious lack of structure in our society. Guild Wars lacks structure.
Knight of Eternal Darknes
it's not hard to find a good group, but without fame when your running a complex build like, a life deg build with a team 1 player can mess up the whole team against another good group, fame is not the problem with pvp the problem is players being to lazy to do pvp, fame and rank is more about experience the more fame and rank the more experience you have which makes it so you know what these players are doing
Orochim4ru
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Man, really you need to brush up on your reading comprehension. You have not understood a word I've said in all that ridiculously large thread. Read it again |
Quote:
| Look, we never said lower ranked groups are better; they are very rarely organised. Why? Because organised groups discriminate on rank. |
Yet no one does, which means that either skill and rank are co-related, or that organization and rank are. If its organization, then a R0 who is a good leader should be able to go and win halls. If its skill, then a R0 who is a good leader will be shut out by virtue of his peers' lack of skill.
If it does turn out to be a matter of skill, then it stands to reason that a higher ranked group would save time by using a) people they know or failing that b) people who are more likely to be skilled. By the heuristic built up above, that means that they would talk to the player about what they're doing, but also ask for rank.
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| we're saying you have no idea how good lower rank players can be if they're not forced to be in bad groups |
They do not have UAX. They do not know a multitude of builds. They do not have the same reaction times. They do not have the experience. These come with time, and with time they'll gain rank and meet good players in the lower ranks. While they do so, they'll move up and become top-level pvpers as well.
Rank 0 isn't a bottomless pit that you can't work your way out of: just put some time into getting better, and eventually you'll get recognized.
Hint: running iway is not a good way to get known.
just to be completely clear here: go play PvE after you've done high end pvp.