Why Rank is hurting the community and why we should boycott groups that ask for it...

I do.

OK, I agree with this thread. Seriously.

I'm still a rank 0. I've had the game since the beginning of June. Why? I didn't get to halls until August, since I went on vacation all of june. I come back, and I got in a few groups. Mainly just pickup groups, since I play a ranger. And I haven't gotten any fame, sincethey *happened* to suck.

But yet, I have 14,000 faction. I'm good at PvP, but I can't get into a tombs team. Because I can't make a pretty little animal come out in front of me. I think this is just wrong.

But while we're at it, I also would like to rant against groups that are annoying. Like when you have a FULL tombs waiting area and all you see is "LF IWAY warrior" or , before they actually balanced it, "LF Spirit spammer". Now, I know what you're saying - "you coulda joined the second one". Yeah, but I hate build groups. No one ever realizes that you could ACTUALLY have a good group if you pulled your head out of your a-- and realized that balance wins battles. Basically, I no longer even LOOK in tombs because it's either "LF Rank 3+" or "LF (insert build here)". Where's the people who actually want skilled players?

And if you think rank indicates how good you are, you must not play in other arenas very often. Because you should know better if you have ANY experience at all.

Don't be a whiney little bitch, someone close this n00by thread.

If your not good enough to get it, you don't deserve to be in the better groups

Flame me all you want, your a complete and utter n00b i really don't care.

You don't even deserve the status 'newbie' acting like this.

HOW THE F**K DID I GET TO RANK 9. DID I WHINE AND BOYCOTT, NO! ! !

I made my iown groups and proved that rank doesn't matter vs.quality.

yes... but then how did i get from rank 0 - 6? i didnt whine like you saying that im good at PvP, you cant be that good at PvP as you would have been asked to join a good group then they would see "how good" you are....

quite simply

rank = experience, but the IWAY has thrown it off course a bit as it required no skill but u can fame for it...

please close this thread mods

i agree with you too

We really do need more of this kind of constructive comments, really!

*Sigh*

This is not about people whining because they want rank "just because".

It's about people NOT BEING ASKED TO JOIN A GOOD GROUP BECAUSE OF RANK.

Tell me how I'm supposed to earn the rank needed to enter groups that actually win enough to gain that rank?

You agree it's actually broken because of FotM; which leaves newcomers to the Tombs face in the mud with an elephant sitting on their back.

All's fine and dandy for those who got their Rank before it started not being accurate anymore. Not so for new players. They are only getting into hastily put together Blind Invite groups that lose.

I'm not whining for me; I don't care for rank anymore. I make my own groups and have a lot of success doing so. I'm trying to help those who don't want to make their own groups; not everyone is good at that. As long as the community accepts that rank dominate relations in the Tombs, these new players will be denied one of the most fun part of the game.

I'm not trying to "make everyone equal" or negate the hard work of those that got a lot of fame. I want all of you to stop discriminating on rank. Rank does not equal experience; just as money doesn't mean hard work.

Although I agree with the second statement, I strongly disagree with the first. Just because you don't frequently HoH doesn't mean that you suck at PvP. It's very hard for me to get a Tomb group being Rank 0, but that doesn't mean that my Guild doesn't frequently GvG or do 4v4.

You want to know a little secret, all of the top PvP players, and by top I mean the ones in Fianna, SoW, Nuclear Launch Detected, Negative Zero, etc. don't play tombs. Do you know why, it's a broken mechanic, and those /rank Tomb PvP'ers just may not be good enough for GvG, which is the pinnacle of GW PvP.

I've built up a substantial network of people to do Tombs with. That's how I even got into the guild I am in. However, you need to make friends with people that do things consistently. You also need to be able to play multiple jobs and multiple jobs well. If a friend of yours is forming up a team, and he asks if you can play Monk for him, and you say "Sorry, I only play Ranger". Then you need to do some homework and unlock more skills.

Rank isn't the issue. FoTM take little to no skill to play and/or understanding of game mechanics. That's why they hit it off with the majority. The minority of us that come up with original aspects to a build, tend to do well. Yes, I do agree that we shouldn't not accept someone into a group if he's not a certain rank. Let's take a look back at recent history of FoTM (it obviously is not an extensive list). We got KD/AS warriors, Air Spike, Ranger Spirit Spam, E/Mo Smiting, IWAY, Ranger Spike (to an extent, though obviously some run it WAY better than most), Ranger Trapping. How these came about was someone came up with a decent original build. The majority of the people that lost to it realized how SIMPLISTIC it is to run, so they start leading groups of that nature. FoTMs are born. The funny thing is, does anyone else notice how the cycle of the game is starting to come back around full circle?

However, most Tombs groups that consistently win ARE NOT PUG. They are friends that know that each other are good and can play multiple jobs or 1 job excellent. They then rally together and go at it. They don't PUG. If they have 1 spot open, they ALL OPEN UP THEIR FRIEND LIST and start asking.

And btw, this most recent update balanced the game considerably until someone comes up with a smart build that is easily copyable and not hard to play. Mesmer did not get so nerfed as many would think.

In addition to all that, my friend Wu Ziching is entirely correct. He hates getting PUGs, cause you never know wtf you're going to get. He could be rank6 and still not know how to run a build. Getting a good group together with PUGs is like winning the lottery, one day at a time.

~Saline Chance. Always available for questions in-game. (Don't look down upon low ranks either, since we all were there at one point. I just like people that are willing to listen and take advice).

Just to prove you right / wrong (I really don't care the outcome, so much as I would like to see the outcome) I'll make an attempt at putting together an unranked group. In my experience unranked monks are trash, however, I intend to keep an open mind.

which is exactly the point why rank is rather meaningless. One of the most challenging sort of PvP in GW doesn't even get rank awards...

@Timoz: Nice trolling. But don't worry, we won't flame you - it's unfair to flame 5 year olds.

Then the /rank mechanic doesn't stop players from experiencing tombs and isn't detrimental to the community.

Case closed.

The pinnacle of GW PvP is energy denial + 5 monk VoD builds?

Ah, i see... 120~/1 on Jet Li must have tired out EP from their massively defensive and almost assured victory setup.

And to those of us that come up with original builds, our builds are copied/nerfed and become new FoTMs.

4v4 doesn't prepare you for tombs to the same extent that 4v4 doesn't prepare you for GvG, and by the same token GvG doesn't prepare you for tombs either.

If you want to play in good tombs groups, you need tombs experience.

I'm sorry, but you sound like you're trying to get enough fame... just to run iway.

If your NEXT step is iway, you're not someone I want in my group. I'd ask for your emote, you wouldn't have it.. and everything would be right with the world. It seems this is working as intended to me.

You have the option to join a pvp guild, have a friend's list, meet new people.. etc. Things that you have apparently passed on. If it is indeed broken, why is anyone rank.. anything? Other people start and do just fine, and you haven't. Why hasn't it occurred to you that you may be doing something wrong, instead of assuming something's wrong with the game. That type of attitude won't make you a better player. The real bad thing here is that you probably have a similiar attitude towards the rest of the game. If some rank 3, 6, or even 9 group took you.. would you do what they asked? Would you change your build? Or would you come here and complain about skill balancing because your build isn't as powerful as you'd like it.

Rank isn't a good indication of skill and most people don't argue that, but as someone said, it's a tool used to help guess what random player might be adequate. Playing with people you know is still far superior and most people do that, and certainly the ones that are successful in pvp.

If you really want things to change for you, YOU'LL have to do something differently, the game isn't going to change around you.

you will never get a boycott agasint rank3+ etc. only groups. you will never stop it. People Will always do it. there will always be people rank 0-2. you can go ahead and help them. I'll even try it. but you will never stop. Rant/agree whatever but you will never be able to boycott /rank groups.

you're right Rank doesnt mean experience. but beeing rank 3+ etc. helps alot. it lets you know, people know; that you play tombs. you've won alot of matches you've had alot of Tomb experience. That you're not a compelte total *newbie*. I've been rank 0-2 before. It was hard to get a group, but not impossible.

All rank tells u is the number of wins u had while being in the group. It is not a good indicator of pvp strength simply because of the idea that u get rank even if u do not contribute much. Think about it this way. IWAY means that even if ur output to the team is mediocre, as long as there are a few people in the group that know what they are doing, they would be able to farm some fame.

I like playing nec/mes/ranger primaries. I used to do iway when there werent groups that were forming. (I stopped because the more i started playing iway, the more disgusted i got). What i do now is i sit around in the lobby, waiting for someone to organize a party - (with ts and vent). I then ask them what build they are running. If they can tell me a clear idea of what they are doing, i'll join them.

In another words, the criteria i used for pvp intelligence is not rank but rather

1. Voice communciation software
2. A plan

That said, rank is also useful because u get people who have no idea about pvp, thinking its pve. Common mistakes i see that happen in pvp?
1. Healing Breeze (WTF-especially if its inefficiently used)
2. Rebirth
3. No res signet (non-monks)
Primarily because rank is an indicator at least in theory of how much experience u have in pvp tombs.

It is a lousy indicator because rank only applies to tombs, does not apply to the random arena. Generalizes the idea that only ranked indviduals are good.

As for the pve/pvp argument that was running in the threads? Alot of the combos u see in pvp are related to those in pve. Pointless to say that pvp > pve because they are too similar and different at the same time.
Ever been hit by Crippling Anguish and Conjure phantasm?
Hell, have u ever been killed in a farming run by those Justicar Zealots when they get pissed that their buddy died and went I W A Y?
Or how about Cry of frustration?

This thread is like an argument between serfs and nobles.

Serfs: "don't treat us like crap. we're capable beings just like you!"

Nobles: "why do you think you deserve to be treated better when you don't even have money! we'll start treating you better once you escape our servitude!"

Anyway. I agree completely with the OP.

You gotta admit the emotes are pretty cool.

I can see both points of view. Top pvpers sometimes dont have rank, but I can see how people who want to go to HOH have trouble. However, some people dont want newbs joining their group of random people.

Ahem.. I was playing my ele.. and back then alter maps had 3 teams.. now I hardly see 3..

Wrong. None of us were born with fame. Nobody's preventing him from joining a pvp guild. No reason he can't have a friend list. He can make his own groups. Rank 3 is 180 fame, that doesn't take long at all.

Is it easier to get fame if you have it? You bet. But we all started at 0 here.

oh man

this thread is lol

this is why i still play gw

This thread is 'lol'? Geez mate, come back when you can speak english and have something worthy to contribute.

Anyway, Rank is a good wway to show just how much Tombs experience one person has had. I know where you're coming from, and that it can be hard for newer players to get good experience, but you're gunna just have to stick to it.

Rank is the best and only sure way for players who do not know each other personally via having played together before to have a way to gage each other's skill.

Original poster can boycott ranked groups all he wants, but he'll probably not win much.

Higher ranked players beat lower ranked players because they're better. Rank really is a measure of skill, and time-spent. But mostly skill.

Boycotting groups for being more skilled is a ludicrous idea.

I suggest: let go of the jealously, get yourself to rank 6 and finally rejoice in being free of "PUG Hell" - PUG Hell being the state I describe in which one's PUG's are guaranteed to lose in Tombs because they players are less thank rank 6 and logically, usually also not very good.

Rank seems like a bad thing when you don't have any but once you have a lot of rank then you appreciate the measure of a man that it represents.

Must disagree strongly with this.

GVG is far easier to be successful at than Tombs is.

I've been in a whole whackload of r6+Tombs PUGS.

Any time we met a Guild in Tombs with any rank worse than #75 on the Guild ladder, they almost always got steamrolled really badly by the r6+ Tombs PUG.

Try this for yourself if you ever get to rank 6 or more, and no doubt your results will be similar.

Why?

Because Tombs is set at a much higher bar of skill and coordination than GVG is. Which is probably why the devs decided not to give fame for GVG in the first place; because they designed the Tombs to be much harder hence the reward is much better.

This is true, all you high-ranked players will have done a lot for your rank.
But most of you started at the first few weeks of the game, when rank wasn`t asked. You meet some other nice <well in PVP> players, and get rank after a few weeks. In the beginning you high ranked ppl probably didn`t find any trouble finding a non-rank group. But nowadays, about 80% of the groups is rank+3, besides that, the groups that are not +3, split up after the first try.

I am not saying that you should entirely stop with playing with high-ranked players. And I know it is possible to get some rank, as a friend of my did. But why not once in a while group with some low-ranked players, look if there are some good ppl in there. And teach the other ppl something about PvP.
The ppl you find good, you could take with u if u need 1 or 2 last players. In that way, at least some people have a chance to develope.
To do this, u really don`t need to group with low-ranked players 24/7, a few times a week would be enough.

Not at all.
If they were all that good you would see them winning both as other top guilds.

GvG is the main pinnacle agreed, but its completely different to tombs. They don't not do tombs because GvG is the pinnacle or whatever, they don't tomb because they suck in the tombs.

People that cant get to rank 3 in one day are just Crap-reason why ranked groups dont take non rank3s like ne more..

Personally i have helped some lower ranked friends and given them advice, but when it comes to them playing with me and my guild thats not gonna happen, they're not experienced enough and they know that.

This post shows that your logic is entirely based on folly.

You say high rank does not weed out bad players, yet you yourself are complaining about only being able to get into "bad groups".

Of course by "bad groups", you are referrring to "unranked groups". So you implicitly admit unranked groups are bad, yet you still say rank does not equal skill.

As you can see by your own logic, bad groups are equivalent to unranked groups. Hence your argument against rank falls apart right there.

If you can make a much better group by asking questions rather than asking for a rank emote, then why don' t you? Why don't we all see your name flashed across our screens as you win HoH constantly as a direct result of your question-asking abilities?

Furthermore:

What need have you to complain about not being able to get into good groups, if your question-asking abilities are all that it takes to make a good group?

Why aren't you out enjoying your massive victories that such question-asking skills allow you to have? Instead of making a thread complaining about your frustration with not getting into ranked groups?

You even have compared ranked people to rich people. Yes, ranked people are indeed rich in skill, and unranked people usually are not.

If you disagree with this and think rank does not equate to skill, then it makes no sense for you to complain about ranked players discriminating against you. If ranked parties were not better than yours - if you did not want to be included in ranked players because you *know* they are better than yours - then you would not care about ranked players discriminating against you.

There are a lot more unranked players than there are ranked players. Since you are so keen on having a "try it" attitude with unranked players, then why not take your own advice. Use your awesome question-asking abilities to organize like-minded unranked players who think like you do. I'm sure there are many who would be happy to join your party. Do that, and let us know how your successes have worked out. Which I see you have already done to some extent. Yet why then do you still complain if you have in fact solved your own problem?

@Your parties only losing to Guilds ranked lower than 300: that may be pretty good for an unranked PUG, but I got some bad news for you, those Guilds most likely are not very good either. As already mentioned by me, the benchmark for what r6 groups will almost always beat is #75 or worse, and even that analysis is probably being very generous on my part in favor of Guilds. Rank 300 Guilds are oftentimes not skilled Guilds.

I can see the future now with question asking:

ARE THERE ANY GOOD HEALING MONKS GOOD AT HEALING ?!?!?!
Of course asking someone their build proves nothing as you can pick up a build anywhere.

<<<would much rather get a friend rank6+ and not have to ask a few questions and keep going through people until someone answers my questions right.

How exactly do you plan to gain fame without 7 people helping you?

Last time I checked, Tombs are pretty hard to solo...

I hate the concept of Rank. I think the /rank is simply a way for players to boast. I get this all the time in CA. You die and your team is deeated, what do you see above your body? Somebody standing there doing their deer over your corpse, very nice.

Also, i play necro/mesmer most of the time and the PUGs that invite me, i will join as i believe that is still is possible, even though it has a small chance. Most of them dont even understand the concept of the tombs and i try my best to teach them but this isnt the way. I have even resided to doing IWAY *shudder*. I'm rank 1 and about half way to rank 2 for about 3 weeks now. Why? Because i can't get into any groups.

I agree wholely with the OP

I will certainly not answer everything that was said; I'd be repeating my self far too much. I don't know how many times I've refuted that rank = skill, and yet people still come to this thread claiming it. But...

This is indeed nice, but it'd get useless quickly as the answers would be posted on every website there is. Also, it can't be done by ArenaNet, as they have a duty to deny the existance of the meta-game. I mean; they can't ask questions like: "What's the worst skill for a Ranger?" as they probably believe every Ranger skill is good (else they would have balanced it).

I'd say peer review would be the best way to handle fame. It'd be anonymous, of course. People would be motivated to judge fairly because if they start giving everyone too high (or too low) of a score, they'd be stuck playing with assholes later on.

I do. Of course; the reason you don't see my name flashing for winning the HoH is that few PUGs win it; it's a guild thing. And when PUGs do, it's because they have been trying for quite some time, which I don't always have. But my PUGs are as good as anyone's.

I'm not complaining for me anymore; as I said, I make my own groups. Should everyone working in a hospital be sick? Is everyone working for the Red Cross needing blood for himself? Is the idea of wanting change for other people so outlandish?

rank has nothing to do with skill, it just means how much time you spend playing fotm builds in tombs, nothing else, im rank 6 btw so i know this for a fact, most rank 9s got their rank from smiting/spirit spam groups and because they play so much everyday, ive been in a rank 2 pug that owned rank 6-9 groups.

This statement is quite false.

R6+ PUGs win HoH all the time. Getting in a R6+ PUG is pretty much a guarantee to get straight to the Hall, and often a HoH victory too.

I guarantee you that most R6+ PUGs would cream any unranked PUGs. There may be occassional exceptions. But they are just that, exceptions. "The norm" is that ranked groups are vastly superior to unranked groups, which incidentally is precisely why you made this thread to complain about the frustration of your inability to win a lot with unranked groups.

You have no idea if an "unranked" groups you are fighting against is a blind invite group or a intelligently put together group. So you can't know what is "the norm", because while intelligently put together unranked groups (which I concede are rare, but they exist) can be just as good as ranked ones, these blind invite groups fail.

As I've said: TRY IT. Backtrack a little in this thread and find the guidelines I use to make a group. Try these guidelines and make your own unranked group. It will cost you at most 30 minutes, and you will have a quality group out of unranked players. You should always ask questions anyway; as some Rank 6+ can also be dumb players (I don't know for myself; I never check anyone's rank, but some people in this thread seem to have observed it).

What I'm up against is that the people who actually are able to organise group will consider unranked player like trash who can't think right, and that these unranked players can only find groups with one of the very few people that do like I do and with blind invite groups. I'm not complaining about my ability to do anything; read the thread before asserting that. These unranked players have no chance to ever prove their skill unless they have a Guild very active in the Tombs. It wasn't true before FotM began dictating who gains rank, but it now is.

If you don't agree we should remove rank; then at least give unranked player a chance to prove themselves. Of course; I'm not saying you should get every dumb unranked there is; but if a player seems good enough when you talk to him, don't kick him because of his rank. That's all I'm asking.

I personally started this game with gvg for the first few months and didn't even start tombing until after the pvp weekend. Granted, I had all content unlocked and was experienced in pvp, but I was still rank 0. I didn't have people who tombed on my friends list, and didn't have a guild that did tombs.

I won the halls before I had an emote anyway. I was in the same situation new people were in starting out in tombs (at least the good people the OP describes) and I ranked up just fine. Any of you people can do the same. You're not unfairly disadvantaged or prevented from success. Are you gaining as much rank as quickly as higher ranked people? No, and you shouldn't be. Find like-minded people in the same situation and bring about your own success. Don't ask to leech off me and others who have already been through it. I don't want to train you in pvp.

BS! Make a group which can beat iway (which is almost any) and now you can farm fame quicker than you ever could before. These noob fotm builds are not some plague keeping you from ranking up, they're a gift you should be taking advantage of.

Navaros- Exactly. Great posts.

I agree that unranked players should have more avenues to prove themselves.

My objection is merely with the nonsensical assertion that rank does not equal skill because if that were true then unranked players would be winning HoH constantly. Yes there can be good unranked players, but the reality is that most unranked players are terrible therefore not worth giving a chance to. That is broadbrushing a lot of people intp the same group, but there is a rational reason for it.

However, taking away fame is not the answer. Those who have high ranks have paid their dues to get there. They too had to go through the Hell of enduring crappy parties up until they got 1000 fame.

Yes, spirit spammers are an exception to this.

Having a good Guild to play with is an exception to this.

Smite builds were not all that powerful, especially unless they had really good warriors in the party. Hence smite build should be respected as a legit way to have achieved rank.

Trying to farm fame with IWAY is so incredibly boring and tedious that anyone who has gotten rank 6 with IWAY deserves that rank out of sheer respect for his fortitude in not going insane from all that mind-numbing boredom.

So while it is true that some people got rank in illegitimate ways, ie: spirit spam: there are also those who had to endure the horrible crappy party grind for 1000 fame. Hence their fame must be respected for that reason.

For that reason I say, rather than mess with existing players' fame, there needs to be a new 1vs1 PVP mode in which good players can earn fame.

The biggest problem with fame is the same main problem that Guild Wars has as a whole game: assembling random people together onto a team and then expecting them to perform well on challenging tasks is not realistic. Most people are simply too dumb to handle it. It is a systematic problem with the whole "Cooperative RPG" concept, and the fame issue is just one symptom of this problem.

1vs1 PVP for fame would take that hurdle of out the equation and give good players fair opportunity to prove themselves.

Okay, now THAT is a false statement. R6+ PUG's are not a guarantee to get to Hall at all.

Now, a highly organized pug on say, the Fianna or the gw-vent Ventrillo's, that is a better chance. But not any old R6+ PUG. Those might make it to the relic runs, thats about it.

Good posts before that... but this is about the last thing I'd like to see in this game. Competition arenas are already breeding grounds for bad pvp players. I'd rather have people coming from pve than LA arena. In CA, you have people who have to design self-sufficient builds that do not incorporate team play at all because of the random make-up of your team. That's just the nature of the random arena and it's fine people have to build like that as it's the only way to win unless you just wait for the magical moment when the rest of the team fits your build.

But this gives players a lot of bad habits and frankly bad attitudes a lot of the time. People who just go out to win 1 on 1 matchups and don't learn team play at all, and think winning a 1 on 1 matchup is all that matters and they did their part. People don't learn what makes a team build good, how to play a part in it, or that specializing and relying on your teammates for other components of a build is important. People think success in CA (or worse if there was a 1 on 1 arena) will translate into 8 on 8 or even TA. They have false senses of experience and skill in pvp, and don't adapt as quickly to 8 on 8 because they think they already know how to do it.. or they never adapt and remain poor players.

This game is about teamwork and a team build, and hope it remains that way.

1v1 proves little about your ability - what happens when you come across the perfect counter to your build, or vice versa?

As nice as it would be for PuGs to ignore ranking, it's not going to happen as long as /rank exists. Why retrograde and throw away that hammer when you want the nail firmly in place? Normally, ranked players will be more skilled than unranked, generally they will be greater assets to your party. There are exceptions to each case, of course, but it holds true for the general population. And the general population is what you deal with when you go PuGing in Tombs. Excellent, unranked players running around Tombs are hardly common.

As much as I dislike the idea of tarring a large group of people with a single stroke, rank is a useful tool. It's a search parameter, much like you would use when Googling. Why bother searching all entries when you're almost guaranteed a hit from a more specified search? Granted, you will miss some excellent hits, but who says its worth the time?