What to do with Runners..

yay new arguments. Btw, I like how you guys can discuss without degenerating to name calling. Good stuff

1. People who are run get to lategame areas without the necessary experience to make them good players. These newbie players affect my gameplay, thus running is detrimental to the Guild Wars Community.

- First, anytime you decide to group with other human players, it is your own conscious decision, therefore you must live with the consequences. If you find a <lvl 20 at the Southern Shiverpeak missions, you know not to take them along with you. Again, any right-minded person can recognize they most likely did not arrive there through the storyline normally as the storyline basically forces you to be level 20. At every mission there is a general range of levels that are doing it so it should be fairly obvious is someone was ran there. A lvl 8 at Sanctum Cay probably is not too legitimate. Some may say that the party was created by someone else, thus have no control over the party setup. I would disagree with that because you always have the option of quitting that party. If you stay within the party it's your own fault because you consciously decided to stay, most likely because you are impatient to complete the mission and don't feel like taking the time to find a better group.

- I agree with Sanji that the paths to get to a mission doesn't exactly teach people how to effectively use their characters. I've had a warrior/monk say that he was a boon healer at the Ring of Fire mission in all seriousness. Point is, you can arrive at most places without being particularly skilled. Heck, you can even take henchies and if you minorly help, you will get through almost all places. Not having runners will not really bar dumb people from progressing. Again in Sanji's words, it's a speed bump rather than a road block.

2. Running causes begging for materials and money at Droknars Forge/other places.

- Begging occurs regardless of runneres in all honesty. Sure, I will acknowledge that runners may add to it, but I sincerely doubt banning runners would decrease it significantly. Just by taking a look at Ascalon City, we have people beginning for materials, money, weapons, etc. all over the channels and I really hope they didn't pay anyone to run them there. Wanting more, bigger, better things is all part of human nature and it would be unfair to pin the blame on runners. There are many people asking for money to "finish their armor" as level 20s in Droknars Forge. Furthermore, they are not taxing your resources if you just don't pay attention to them. If you go out of your way to interact with them by flaming them, responding, or donating materials, that again is your conscious decision. Guild Wars is an instanced game where most of your time I would say is spent with your own group on a quest or mission, so I don't think this should be THAT big of a problem.

3. Running causes twinkers in PvE arenas.

- Ok, I will grant you that twinkers are a result of having runners available to take them to the higher level areas to cap the skills. However, I don't think it's fair to blame the runners for what the people who are run do as a result of that service. This can be analogous to a person who sells knives for a living being blamed for one of their clients murdering someone a year after the purchase. Knives and running both have a useful purpose, knives for cutting food and running for getting experienced players to certain points, but both can be taken to the negative side, killing and twinking. Both the knife vender and runner are providing a service; what the client does after recieving their services should not be their fault.

- As Sanji said, PvE arenas have always been messed up and really it's become a place for people who want to use skills with limited attribute points. Since running is a PvE aspect, I don't think that bringing this into the PvP world is necessarily fair.

4. People should not be run because they are missing content. The end doesn't justify the means and the journey is better than the reward. [The game is only a few month old, whats the rush anyways....]

- Well I think as you said, its their perogative to choose how they play and since you stated it yourself, no point in delving into it further. I will address the last sentence, saying what's the rush. Guild Wars was not designed to have a lengthy PvE world, in fact it was basically made so it WOULDN'T have one as it focused on PvP. Even though the game is a few months old, a very good portion of the players have logged 500+ hours with quite a few with 900+. Because the game seriously only takes about 75-90 hours of gameplay to really finish if you don't sit in town for hours idle etc. , so when going through your 3rd character, i guess getting to the parts you enjoy would actually enhance your gaming experience rather than detract from it. Repetitiveness isn't exactly exciting and though the GW world is awesomely beautiful, it really isn't terribly exciting to go through.


yayness, have a good day people. If I missed some arguments let me know. Post refutations to mine so if I am wrong, I'll change my mind

Well, that's a long post so you'll forgive if I don't quote. I would say there are alot of valid points, but in my opinion they are valid in a narrow scope of the variety of people who get run.

A couple of points-

Newbies and running. Yes I do think it makes a difference. Firstly, aside from the lack of experience I don't think they take the game as seriously as someone who took the time. More importantly, with all the talk about running, it gives the impression that that is the way to play the game. "We're not going to invite you unless you have this and that" ect.

Begging and money. I think it does more than that I think it encourages gold buying not in the game. You may respond that that will happen anyways, but so what? Dragging someone through the zones few can argue is a allowable exploit (and I know running is not a exploit), so how much of a leap is it to buy gold on Ebay? I dunno it seems that if your playstyle is to rush, you might as well have the same attitude to making gold. Everyone complains about bots, but if there was no one buying gold there'd be no need for them.

Missing out on gameplay. I guess I brought that up, but I did point out that that is just my gamestyle. If someone doesn't want to stop and smell the roses fine by me. BUT I notice that there are people who have rushed through the game and are complaining that they are bored...oh well.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm sure there are valid reasons for wanting to run, but that doesn't make it right because overall I think it does more harm than good. I do think it sucks that inorder to have a good PvP experience you have to go through multiple times to unlock everything.
Still i don't think that the game is so incredibly hard or time consuming that you need to be run.

Since running is allowable, there's nothing I can really do, so I find it amusing that people get so defensive when you speak out against it. I do respect your opinion and a few others because you are willing to speak about it rationally.

i hate the " i did the best skam "

RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOING kids are destroing GW cumunity

i have a runner. i made him coz i have 2 accounts and i wanted to get the good armor for my other account. i have 2 computers so this is rather easy. it was before the update so you needed to get to all the priests to UAS, so i felt running was a legit service. never had any complaints and only got stiffed 3 times. would you believe i got tips that offest the rippoffs tho? some people are really cool. the only complaint against runners is that people like to go to ascalon arena and abuse the end game armor against new players. i am 100% against that, but i could never tell of that was the intent of the people i ran (besides myself).

If a player *chooses* to group with human players and gets stuck with a rushed PC, and if that PC does not contribute to the group or is the cause of that player seeking a different group, the the rushed PC has affected that player's gameplay negatively.. Regardless of who bears responsibility, rushed players affect our PvE gameplay. We are having to live with the consequences of people being rushed. Many of us have given up on PUGs entirely and only use henchmen; at least a minor contributing factor has been the low quality/knowledge of players who have been rushed. We can quibble over how large a contributing factor that has been, but such quibbling will not ameliorate anything.
Again, if a rushed player contributes to the downtime a player chooses to endure between gaming experiences, that rushed player has contributed negatively to that gaming experience. Yes, it's our choice, but everything derives from the root choice to play the game in the first place. We could always choose to play Tetris or Spider Solitaire; we'd have to live with the consequences of those choices too. The argument you're missing is that PvE players are having to deal with these rushed idiots. Certainly there are other ways to choose to play the game, but for players who choose to play the game with human beings, rushed players can be a problem.
If players are not learning how to play the game by playing the game, how else are they learning how to play the game? Magic? Of the many different ways of learning how to succeed at Guild Wars, all of them require you to play it.

Certainly there are complete idiots who roam the Earth and do not get rushed anywhere. The fact that these creatures exist does not negate the truth that there are idiots who get rushed and that rushing can contribute significantly to their ignorance.

Just as certianly there are non-idiots aplenty who get rushed and know how to play the game perfectly well. The general fact of the existence of these creatures does not mean rushing is a valid, moral, upstanding means of play. All it means is that smart people generally tend to make smart choices (and we infer that speeding our way through the game is a smart choice due to time being the most limited resource we have in our lives).

There are many who would argue that the negative aspects of rushing/running outweigh the positive aspects. Regardless of which side of the issue we stand on, runners are profiting through a process that negatively affects the gaming experiences of many people.
The key here, you see, for many of us, is that runners are adding to it. We can quibble over how much, but this quibbling won't resolve the root issue.
What happened to taking personal responsibility for your choices? You cannot shamelessly suggest that it's our choice to play or not play with people who have been ran while also suggesting that runners take no responsibility for the garbage heaps that are the level 10/level 15 arenas.

Also, your analogy is false. Enabling a morally reprehensible act, even one that we inadvertantly enable a year later, is still, in itself, morally reprehensible. Should we extend your argument to guns, and hypothetically posit that Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris (the Columbine killers) waited a year before enacting their crime, does that time lapse make the crime of selling them guns less reprehensible? I should hope not. At any rate, as I hope my own analogy illustrates, it is patently absurd to compare running/rushing with anything from the real world. Choose better analogies.

It is perfectly fair to place the blame for the level 10 and 15 arena mess directly on the feet of the runners. If running/rushing were not an option, elite skills and Droknars armor would be fantastically rare in these arenas, and those arenas would be much more fair. However, since people who have a problem with these arenas can simply avoid the issue entirely by leveling, the mess that is pre-20th level PvP is not such a bad thing. The real sadness is that for a primarily focused PvE player, the chances of improving our PvP ability is severely limited -- PvP players have significant equipment advantages over PvE players in the level 20 arenas, and there is no "fair" arena for PvE players who have not been rushed prior to the level 20 arenas.
Guild Wars *has* a lengthy PvE world; if it wasn't lengthy, people would not *need* to be rushed through it, they could just play. I'm afraid your fundamental assumptions through this point are flawed. That Guild Wars is "focused" on PvP is your opinion, and hardly fact. And although you find the PvE world boring, many people do not.

But since the thrust of your argument is that rushers provide a valuable service to the community, I must agree. But no one but the most die-hard haters of rushers is disagreeing with this point -- it's obvious that we want the best armor and best skills as quickly as possible. The real issue under debate is whether or not the negative consequences outweigh the value.

Myself, I believe the PvE world would be better without rushing, and rushing is bad for the game. But since the PvP crowd has to put up with newbs and idiots, the PvE world should grin and bear our version, too. That doesn't mean we have to *like* runners, but, concurrently, a PvP player doesn't have to *like* a guildless, rank 0 Wa/Mo, either. But no one is making a profit by plaguing the PvP world with those rank 0 Wa/Mo's; if only we could say the same thing in the PvE world.

Appologies for length, ranting, spelling, and grammar. It's late and I must teach tomorrow, so I lack time for a reasonable edit.

cmb

A very good point. While I think there were good intentions trying to have one side be be a fairly indepth MMO and one side be quick jump in and play PvP, it doesn't work and people find exploit to get them through.

Although they are dependant, they are 2 different playstyles.
It seems to me in that Anet has come to the conclusion that it's far easier to allow people to use the exploit of being dragged through than to try and balance the game.

I can see how people get confused that it is mostly PvP. Because the only end result is having a more powerful PvP character, no rewards from having unique items (since you can get them at just about any level).

Okay, Shadow?

I doubt that being run to one specific place inspires the urge
to ask for things that people can't afford. It happens in Ascalon
for God's sake. Don't try and turn Droknars into this center of
panhandling and noobery you make it out to be....

Begging goes on in pretty much every town, Lions, Henge, Forge,
Ascalon, even Springs.

It happens. It's not the fault of the runners.

It almost sounds like we are blamming runners for the state of the game here people.

Last week it was invinci monks...
Week before farmers..
Week before god I dont know ebay or someting like it lol.

I run my friends and my guild. They all can play the game extremely well. Do it for free.
Most likely you've been healed by monks that have been run, or partied with people that have been run.
Was it the guy that got you killed or the guy that saved your ass that was run.... you tell me.
Playing the game entirely does not gurantee how that player will behave. In fact human nature, personality and attitude dictates the outcomes on missions more than any skills and armour combos I can dream of.

At least with a good attitude skills can be learnt anytime, even during a mission. Have seen this in many missions with lower level characters.

If you want to nerf and cull start with the OP, what a shitty thing to do to another player. I would take a million more runners anyday hands down for a million less people like that in the game.

Runners are not responsible for every single thing wrong with the game but they are responsible for adding to the problems. They are the gasoline on the fire so to speak.

You know if I have a group and if someone even acts like they could be a problem I do have the little button that says "kick", I have had too many players join my group, say come on lets go, hurry up, etc.. They earn the use of the button because I am almost positive their behavior after we get into a game will not be much better and they are probably a "Leroy".

I really don't care to hear about drok's or Liona Arch being the center of "Can I have free please" you always have and always will have people that just won't get off their ass and go out and work for their own gold and items.

Just because you are poor does not mean you HAVE to be, you CHOOSE to be and to me they are no different than the people that stand on the corner with a sign that says "will work for food" only problem is when you offer them work it's like "yeah buddy whatever, I can beg and get more money than working for it"

People beg for crap in pre-sear ascalon so don't tell me it's any different in post-sear, they are lazy and I have a button that I can turn off the "beggers channel" if I choose.

There is a polite way to ask someone that joins your group what skills they have brought, it is very easy to state that you want to bring along skills that will compliment their set and if they appear to only have skills that a truly new player would have you can always kick them from the group before you begin.

This is the usual type of person you will see in THK spamming "I HATE THIS GAME, MONKS SUCK, NEED A MONK THAT KNOWS HOW TO HEAL!!" Whenever you need a good laugh just head over there and wait, one of them will show up soon, they always do.

But sitting around and blaming runners for every little crappy "Leroy" that joins your group is just wrong, if I can spot one after a bit I know others should be able to.

I would like to humbly add a few thoughts.

I enjoy guild wars very much, and have played for many hours (to me). However, I am limited by my job, house, family, and other real world concerns. I play approximately 5 - 7 hours a week. I am content to not be as skilled at the game as other people. It is my niche.

I believe, however, that I carry myself in a respectable manner, both in and out of the game. I can honestly say, I have never had a bad Pick-up group. I have had many unsuccessful Pick-up groups, but never one that I regretted being a part of. If you can accept that a person isn't as good at the game as you are, try to work with them, etc., everyone is likely to have a good time. If you do not have the patience for people to understand, than you should try to limit your exposure (via a guild, friends list) to people who you are familiar with (as you cannot know whether a person is "good" or not).

I was run to Droknor's forge after acquiring level 20. Having played Diablo, I was used to leveling up my character before playing missions (I now realize this was unnecessary, as the missions tend to provide plenty of experience). I had been told about a skill that I wanted to try out that was found after Thunderhead Keep, "Charge", so I wanted to get there. I played Thunderhead, and the Pick-up group beat it in the first try. It wasn't easy, by any stretch, but working together, we succeeded. And most of all, everyone enjoyed it (or atleast professed that they did after we won).

Person feelings about running, as long as it's not to be an "ubber" person in the Ascalon / Yak's arena's run all you want to get better armor, start unlocking your elite skills for PvP (again not the Ascalon / Yak arena) better armor for doing normal Pve.

As long as anet keeps this option open, anet allows it. Some kind of runners I do hate but I keep it to myself, I play this game the way it allows me, the way I want it.

I agree 100%

runners rule, I run myself and guild mates around. Still not able to do the drok run though. We all play how we want to.

As for "haha I pwned a runner" poster... I call you a scammer.

To credit the OP, he did ask for it to be free and the runner agreed and forgot / didn't realize it. So the op is in his right to not pay, now the op should not be rubbing it in. IMHO.

Actually the customers over there are the scammers. If I had the money I should've earned from running, I'd have my 15k pants.

Just in case there's still some life left in this horse, let me beat it a different way.

The playstyle in earlier areas is limited greatly by a smaller set of skills to bring with you. Sure around Yak's Bend it's good to bring Healing Breeze. In Ring of Fire and especially PvP, Healing Breeze is a horrible spell. Can you really tell me that the playstyle that you're learning early in the game will make you a truly valuable addition later on in the game? I don't know the answer, but I'd guess that bringing a crappy build in a later mission causing you to receive a beat-down (either from the mission or from your team) taught you more than walking through an easy mission with that same crappy build.

EDIT: As far as the OP goes - yeah kind of a jackball thing to do, but the runner should have been more careful. I always make sure my passengers agree to the destination and the price before we even set off. No good to report someone if you don't have screenies that prove they scammed you.

I run for money everynow and then. I'm fine with people not liking the whole running business. The only thing I have a problem with is how after I adverstise someone starts denouncing running and how much they hate it blah blah blah. I mean if you hate it thats cool but do you have to tell everyone? Just a small complaint I have lol.

Agreed it sounds as if the runner wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, and I have no problem with what the OP did.

Anyhow, I would have little pity someone getting scammed from making money on a cheap exploit....just rewards.

My personal feelings on running are as follows:

After you've played through the game, I have no issue. My problem is when first-time players who haven't even HEARD of Droknar's (And yes, I've seen them) are getting run.

I also disagree with people getting run to go crazy at Ascalon arena. That just pisses me off.

While I respect your opinion, whats the difference and do people check?
The problem is they don't... it's something that is totally uncontrolled.

Its all a matter of perception, why bother to play the game through the traditional way when you see that many people do not? Putting yourself in the shoes of a new player, why is it ok that a person plays a game through a second time get to do it.... oh wait I can.

WARNING: WALL OF TEXT AHEAD. CLOSE WINDOW IF NEED BE.

Several long responses warrant my own long response to give it proper address, so these are my following thoughts on the presented anti-running arguments.

Dax:

1. Firstly, aside from the lack of experience I don't think they take the game as seriously as someone who took the time...gives the impression that that is the way to play the game. "We're not going to invite you unless you have this and that" ect.

- Taking the game as seriously and time commitment I really think is a factor of personal interest and style rather than something that should be weighed in this discussion. There are many people who do not do the side quests and progress through the game through missions only because they can only afford to play for a little bit each week. Running would get these people to places slightly faster I suppose, but to assume that by not running them, they will have any more commitment I think is a false assumption.

- The idea of giving new players that this is the only way the game is played I don't think is really that big of a deal. When I started playing and when my two friends started playing, we all basically had the understanding that if you pay for the run, you get new skills faster but it was in no way necessary. Then again, if you just think about it logically, why would a game include a portion that REQUIRES another person to run you through? What would all the first generation people do? I doubt a game would base their gameplay around something as arbitrary as human players that can charge anything they want since it isn't regulated by the game.

- Personally I have never heard of people kicking me for not having a certain skill that they request. If this happens commonly I'm not aware of it but I doubt this would carry very far as the majority of players still take the full path through the storyline, so that particular group probably won't get very far if they request Blood is Power at Bloodstone Fen. Most of the time they ask what build you have, like healing if you are monk or traps/interrupt as a ranger.

2. ...so how much of a leap is it to buy gold on Ebay? Everyone complains about bots, but if there was no one buying gold there'd be no need for them.


- I don't really see how this links to running unless you're saying by creating beggars, you induce Ebay-ing gold. I don't really think either part of this statement is true, though the second could be to a certain extent. Beggars exist in any game, even if it doesn't have runners, just due to human nature. If people buy gold from Ebay, it's because they want something fast without working for it. From what I know, most people who purchase ebay gold actually buy it when they buy the game as a jump-start, not as a method of getting something (I really have no way of knowing for sure, but this is what I have deduced from talking to players in game). Most botters also don't farm to sell gold on ebay; there are far more botters and farmers than gold sellers. The main purpose of botters is to get equipment or the gold to purchase equipment.

octaviancmb:

1. Regardless of who bears responsibility, rushed players affect our PvE gameplay. We can quibble over how large a contributing factor that has been, but such quibbling will not ameliorate anything. Yes, it's our choice, but everything derives from the root choice to play the game in the first place. The argument you're missing is that PvE players are having to deal with these rushed idiots.

- I don't think it's fair to ban running due to a minority group of people who are idiots. You state that quibbling about how large a contributing factor it is would not ameliorate anything, and sure I agree with that. I never said that belittling the effects of running would solve the idiocy of those who were run, i even conceded that runners have a contribution. However, how large the factor it contributes does have an affect on how big of an issue this truly is. Going to Sanctum Cay, you most likely will find a few underleveled people who were run trying to form a party for the mission, but there are also dozens of others who are doing the mission also. If you are saying that you can't circumvent parties with these few low-leveled characters in order to progress, it just shows that you're either impatient or too lazy to find a proper party. Chances are the parties that take on these low levels were 1) started by the low leveled people in which case you just reject, or 2) in a rush to start the mission so most often will not have an even build that will carry you through the mission anyways. Saying that it "affects your gameplay" by having to actually look at the party you join isn't a legitimate argument against running. Dealing with these rushed idiots takes mere seconds to reject their parties or find new ones.

- Yes, I would agree with you that everything in the PvE portion game pretty much leaves it open to you in terms of choice. You don't have to group with humans, but if you do you have to accept you made a conscious decision to do so. Anytime you deal with other humans, you deal with the possibilities that there are idiot wammos, people who drop out, and complete lunatics but if you feel it's worth the human interaction, you take that chance. I personally only do mission with humans only because I think it increases my enjoyment of the game. I just spend the tiny bit of extra effort beforehand to see I don't have any underleveled teammates and that they are all present with roles in mind before starting. If you don't do that yourself, you can't really blame anyone but yourself.

2. Of the many different ways of learning how to succeed at Guild Wars, all of them require you to play it.

- Sure I agree with you, playing is the only way to learn. Let's think about this though, why would you buy a game just get run through? People get run for various reasons, but the end result is always to play SOMETHING. If it's a second or third player, they know what parts they enjoy the most and therefore get to that part and that maximizes their enjoyment of the gameplay. I guess you could say that I'm making it one sided that by using the example of 2nd and 3rd players is narrowly scoped because people on their first characters are being run. I would argue that my assumption that only this is only an issue with 2nd and 3rd characters because i think it's a safe assumption that only people who have gone through the game at least once would have the money to pay for any significant length run. Most newbs will get run from piken to courthouse and maybe yak's bend, and say henge of denravi to maguuma stade or from druid's outlook to The Wilds mission. I don't think that this really detracts from their gameplay or "skill" that much seeing as they still have to play the mission, which is where I believe most poeple learn how to deal with mobs. Furthermore, it really does not take that much to succeed in Guild Wars, though I would say energy management and interrupting are two things that take some time to learn. A warrior repeatedly alternating between attacks will get him through the game and really doesn't take any skill at all.

3. Your analogy is false. Enabling a morally reprehensible act, even one that we inadvertantly enable a year later, is still, in itself, morally reprehensible...it is patently absurd to compare running/rushing with anything from the real world. Choose better analogies.


- I really don't see why knife analogy isn't applicable so if you would like to explain that'd be cool. In the example of the Columbine shootings that you brought up, my answer would be: no, i don't think that the gun sellers would be morally reprehensible for something they have no control over. In your hypothetical situtation of the killers obtaining guns a year before the actual crime, the gun dealers should not be blamed for several reasons. First, the vending of guns is not illegal in itself as long as it follows regulation. Since you are talking about moral obligations, we'll assume that the sale was legal in that they were eligible to own a gun for self-defense. The gun vender has no idea what intention the buyer will have a year later. If a particular buyer has his family killed in front of his eyes and then tortured between the purchase of the gun and when he goes and kills the people who did it, do you think blaming the gun vender would be fair? I can link this to knives that if someone sells a kitchen knives set as cutlery to a person but that person later on uses one of those knives to kill another person, the knife makers should not be blamed because everything they did was legal. Going back to Guild Wars, runners are legal according to GW rules and Devs so they are not breaking any rules by running people. Lornars Pass was deliberately put there as a challenge to runners, so what the people who are run do as a future result of being run should not be the runners fault. The way to fix this would not be to kill running I personally think, but to just limit what skills you can use in those arenas in accordance to what is feasibly attainable at that particular point. In regards to weapons and armor, get level requirements for them to prevent such twinkers but killing running I don't believe is the solution.

4. Guild Wars *has* a lengthy PvE world; if it wasn't lengthy, people would not *need* to be rushed through it, they could just play. I'm afraid your fundamental assumptions through this point are flawed. That Guild Wars is "focused" on PvP is your opinion, and hardly fact. And although you find the PvE world boring, many people do not.

- I think that you also have some funndamental assumptions and I also think that Guild Wars is PvP based for several reasons. First, the level cap is level 20, which is basically unheard of in most MMORPGs, epecially since level 20 is so easy to achieve. Most MMORPGs that are based around PvE contents have much higher level caps as well as many more side quests that people need to "grind" to get to higher levels or skills. Grind in that sense is playing the PvE world. In Guild Wars, even with the minimal grind, there are people complaining that it is taking too long to get certain things. You hear this in other games sure, but not in the intensity and sheer percentage as in Guild Wars. People bought this game under the impression that it was an instant gratification game since thats the way it was advertised, "instant PvP". Furthermore, the idea that armors have no level requirements and all weapons besides those close to max are basically useless with no superweapons or armor all go toward the end of equality in the PvP world. In most MMORPG, there is an inherent hierarchy of those with more hours as they obtained the better items and are able to "own" the PvE world. Also looking at the number of hours needed to get to level 20 or complete the game, it is pretty short comparatively.

- Just to clarily, I never said I find the PvE world boring; in fact I rarely venture in to the PvP world. I just said there are certain sections that people find boring and rather not play through just to progress to something they like. Personally for me that area is Old Ascalon, just because I don't enjoy the overcast sky and overall dreary nature of the land, but also thankfully I don't need to be run past it since it's pretty easy to get to piken and then courthouse by yourself.

I agree with you in that we must weigh the benefits and costs of having the notion of running in Guild Wars and I personally find it beneficial and not have many adverse effects on most players.

Sister Rosette:

- Read my post before you reply please: i basically stated what you said, in that begging exists no matter what and that running may add to it minisculely but should not be denounced for this reason. If you follow my insanely long posts, you also see I support running, not try to undermine it.

Eltargrim:

1. My problem is when first-time players who haven't even HEARD of Droknar's (And yes, I've seen them) are getting run.

- I'm not sure why someone would get run to a place they've never heard of, or how they would have the funds to pay for such a run if they've never heard of Droknars Forge. So I guess until you provide some more evidence or reasoning, I'll just leave this be.

Dax #2:

1. While I respect your opinion, whats the difference and do people check?
The problem is they don't... it's something that is totally uncontrolled.

- Why is it the responsibility of the runner to check who they are running? There are no rules in Guild Wars delineating who can be run and who can't, so to place the moral burden upon runners to do it is unfair.

2. Its all a matter of perception, why bother to play the game through the traditional way when you see that many people do not?

- you would play it the traditional way because you find it enjoyable. Just because I know people do drugs in society and cheat on tests doesnt necessarily mean I will do it. I find that playing through the gameplay on the parts I like and doing all the quests available is an enjoyable process and knowing that I can be run really won't change my mind about that. It's synonymous to not doing drugs or cheating due to my principles and rules of conduct.

YAY long post that took forever to type. Btw, octaviancmb and Dax i respect your opinions and I have absolutely nothing against you guys. These posts are just for the mere exercise of defending a position and presenting my views. You guys are great people.

My suggestion :

First-time-players may NOT enter snake dance.

When finishing the game (or at least arriving at drognars) for the first time, the account is allowed to enter snake dance with any char. This avoids a lot of begging, makes sure people have a minimum experience (even valuable on other professions) and still makes it possible to quicklevel your second char without beeing forced to repeat the entire game.

Seems fair to me. Any suggestions about this ?

While it is allowable, paying someone to run while you die and be dragged is hardly what I imagine the developers had in mind. The game is made to be easily progressable in a shorter time span than most rpgs. Mobs are harder in areas because they are meant to be more of a challenge for experienced players. Experience, and teamwork come from experience not rushing through the game as fast as possible.

I doesn't require it it gives the perception that it is needed. Your last sentence pretty much hit the nail on the head. Actually for most people running has become part of the game. Please name me a successful MMORPG that lets you wear end game armor at a low level. There are reasons for everything and running seems to be a way to appease people who don't want to take the time. A new player who wants to play through has a immediate perception of dissadvantage, especially when they use the low level arenas. I know you might say that Arenas in PvE don't mean anything but as a first time player it may be their first experience.

I have, I don't really have anything else to really say


Ok:
First time player/Player with no time----> considers running a large initial expense

Needs lots of money----->no time/ new player might consider ebay

I think this would be obvious, but a person who doesn't want and/or have time that feels they need to be run I assume doesn not want to bother with farming for the gold needed. As you said buying gold is the jumpstart. Yes i know there's people who have gone through lots of times and have the money.

Let me also give a preemptive strike and say that I don't think all runners use ebay, that's not what I meant. But it doesn't help.

You know since there are no consumables or crafting really I've found if you play the game through and buy the armor reflective of the level you don't need to worry about money.


There's not, this a response for people who hate newbie runners but are ok with vets running. Thats' the point.


So by that logic the game would suck if you couldn't run? I play the game through because that's the way the game was designed. If the game was designed so people could run (which is different than just allowing people to do it) the game would suck. There isn't really a parallel with drugs, but if the world revolved around skipping part of your life just to get ahead... that would suck as well.

If you do use drugs as an example. Most people say that whatever one does in thier own time, that's thier problem/perrogative. Since we live in society and we have to deal with people, drugs can be damaging because it affects lots of people. Same with running- If it was a single players experience I'd say go for it, but since it affects other people (being a MMO, atleast it should) it's not ok.

But I think using real world examples is not really relevent...it's a game after all.

Sorry for the double post....LEVEL CAP armor like every other game, and I guarentee that running will be a non-issue. Let people run til they are blue in the face.

I don't see how you can really level cap armor, all a player would have to do is take off all their armor when being ran.

You would need to base it more on a player level I would think.

Is running, as a first time character, cheating?

I have seen it equated to murder, drug use, academic dishonesty, and a variety of other illegal activities. So I ask, is running a violation of any game policy, state or federal law?

Why can first time players not play the way they'd like? It is possible to learn a great deal about guild wars without playing. For instance, reading build forums, skill discussions, strategy tips, etc. I have read many of the posts on the guru forum, and I know a lot about a variety of game mechanics.

So maybe I just don't want to bother with all the PVE areas. Maybe I dont like the way Maguuma Jungle looks. Maybe the Mergoyles just irritate me. If you have ever played Diablo 2, you probably have skipped acts 2 and 3 numerous times. You may have never played those acts. Its your prerogative.

Please explain: (1) why players cannot play as they choose, and (2) provide a list of "good qualities" a player must possess before they are allowed to get to droknors, and methods for testing those qualities (level isn't a good test, as level 20 is easily reachable. I was level 20 before doing any of the lion's arch quests).

I was in Old Ascalon this morn with a new (to post) char when a warrior started begging for 3K to complete his Forge armor. At first, I thought he was just down on his luck (my level 20 has Drok's legitimately, but sometimes gold gets spent a little too quickly on things). Then I discovered he was a level 6 who had been run! He asked me to come admire his pretty armor when I commented on his level, etc. I whispered (wish I'd put it on chat channel instead now) that why would I want to? He hadn't earned the armor or the right to wear it!

It's not that I'm so strait-laced, but it ires me no end when ppl shortcut so drastically. If we started out post in Forge armor, why even bother with missions and such? We'd be better armed and amored than anyone against else and *poof* there goes any challenge factor. Nothing to look forward to (armor-wise)....

I mean put level restrictions on the armor and weapons like most games do.

I have used these forums since April and never saw a need to register until I clicked on this thread. I really know this thread does not represent this community in this forum... I have only 2 wonders/questions was why this was this thread not locked and or deleated and how did I miss it before... I know the answer I was reading worth while information. I am not here to argue the "yay" or "nay" of running it makes no difference to me. I have a runner w/mo and have ran people all around Tyria for free and really try not to even accept tips. But what this guy did...nothing more than stealing... he entered the agreement on his/her own free will.. nobody forced him/her to do so and he did it with the intent of doing two things... getting to Beacons Perch ( a service the runner provided) and to scam the runner.... I have three accounts and been playing since April.... Yes the quests get old also I see no reason to spend my hard earned gold on upgrading armor when I can run myself to Grotto or Granite and avoid all the expence... Yes I know there are collecters that give armor but *sigh* after the first character that all seems a little mundane. Either way I am not discussing the "pros" and "cons" of runners... But this guy is just a guillty of theft as a scammer selling quest weapons telling you can expert salvage them IMHO... thanks

I'm not against runners or charging money for runs. What I am against is scammers.

I'm sorry how is he a scammer? The runner said he would run him for free...
If anyone is a scammer it's the runner who said for free and then asked for money. I hope that's what you mean.

Wow, that's kinda strange. Yes it does seem rather a chore to have to take the time and play through a game, whew I'm tired just typing that. Yea gotta wonder why the developers chose to make all that armor, because it is really boring.

I got a good laugh last night. Some Runner was trying to run people from Old Ascalon to Piken for 1K a head. LOL

Well that's a tough one.

Fansite Friday No. 56 - 26 Aug 2005
http://guildwars.gameamp.com/guildwars/gwInterview

A specific relevant quote here, in response to a question asked about running:

Things to note here:

• The inclusion of running is a though out aspect of Guild Wars
• There are negatives invloved that are caused by running that the developers are aware of.
• The Developers are working on ways to stop these negative aspects.

Therefore, it is my opinion that runners should keep running. Updates will come out addressing these negatives. Running itself is a fully legitimate and intentional part of Guild Wars, and untill ANet changes it's stance on it, I believe this debate is moot.


Some of my opinions on the subject:

• This interview is almost 2 months old. This suggests to me that either ANet has not been able to implement a fix, or has deemed there is no need for one as yet.
• A second relevant Fansite Friday Inerview: Guild Wars Fansite Friday #59
• I am both a runner, and have had characters run. With these characters I have completed each mission as missions give skill points.
• Unlocking skills is a very time consuming aspect of the game.
• People playing through the game for more than the second time for the purpose of capping skills generally wish to do so as quickly as possible.
• People have a reason for playing the game through each time.
  1. If this reason is to play through the game for fun, they will play the missions they find fun.
  2. If not that for that reason there is still a purpose, and I argue that if the fulfilment of this purpose is aided by running, the person should have the option.

Side Notes:

• This interview is almost 2 months old. This suggests to me that either ANet has not been able to implement a fix, or has deemed there is no need for one as yet.
• A second relevant Fansite Friday Inerview: Guild Wars Fansite Friday #59: http://www.guildwars.com/community/f...-friday59.html
• In this interview it is said that ANet is considering implementing features that reduce or eliminate the perceived need for running.
• This specifically does not include steps taken to eliminate the ability to run anyway.

Lineage: The Bloodpledge. By any measure, the most successful MMORPG ever created - probably more successful than WoW, which seems to be the measuring stick by which the Western world is comparing MMORPGs.

Actually, I do believe the designers created the game as to allow running. From what I have read, in the past, Lornar's Pass was originally not linked to Beacon's Perch. There is little reason for it to have been opened up, other than for the purpose of running. ANet has even commented on their Fansite Fridays that running (for the runner) is part of the game, a challenge in itself. Also, from what I hear, ANet actually removed an armor level cap before GW was released. If what I'm asserting is true - and I can't confirm personally; perhaps a beta player can - then further discussion ANet's position on the issue is aimless.

i agree with you...damn retards like the op ruining the running game...congrataRED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOinlations

Hang in Droknar's for a while & you will see ppl charging 1k to run to Port Sledge.

Tis true, very sad indeed..... But to play devil's advocate that's what I would say too, as a PR person.

Yes we put that in and people can power level, but we don't think it's right for people to have a unfair advantage.....we are looking into fixing it sometime, yea right. That makes total sense. Keep "Assessing" the situation GW guys.

But, for myself I have nothing against runners. I have a problem with people in the group being drug through by dying. If a runner and party can make it through alive together ...my hats off.


Hot damn if that's true I stand corrected. They are the most popular, mostly in Asia I belive. Silly me was thinking of only the western MMOs.

I don't agree with it, I love to debate it, but it's your game guys. You reap what you sew

yeah -.- one of my guildies did that once *for 200gp* and when they got there with a full group everybody yust left him withouth paying .

I noticed the OP blanked out his name but left the name of the runner for all to see. Does that seem like fair play? I shall talk to the runner that was scammed and make him aware of this post. I will urge him to talk to Anet as well. Let them see who gets 'pwned'. Also shall endeavor to get ign of the OP and post it. That will balance this up some

And if you seriously dont believe the guy was scammed ask yourself if it was just a little premeditated.