Poison Arrow

Morty

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2005

21 Nov 2005 at 21:35 - 41

Quote:

a ranger spike hits for 150+ with my ranger Yes, but not 150 dps, just in one second (if that fast). dps is over time.

Hasn't anyone heard of a pressure build? I think those can be harder to heal through than a spike.

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

22 Nov 2005 at 00:02 - 42

Poison Arrow is bad because Apply Poison does the job better, without the use of an elite. If you're using either skill it's to spread poison around, right? Apply Poison is going to be identical on the energy after ~3 uses, and just keeps getting better from there. You can fire off other attack skills while spreading poison around with Apply, like Debil Shot. Unless it has gotten a buff, Poison Arrow also deals less damage than a normal arrow, so 'freeing up a prep' really doesn't matter since you'd still be doing comparable damage.

The only time Poison Arrow shines is against a low number of targets without removal, where you want to poison a couple targets then switch back to damage mode. Is Poison Arrow really the elite you want in that case, though?

Basically it's an elite answer to a non-elite problem, and not a particularly good one at that. It's not useless, but it's also not what you're going to want in a large majority of cases.

Peace,
-CxE

Morty

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2005

22 Nov 2005 at 01:53 - 43

I'm not using it to 'spread poison around,' I'm just looking for an easy damage add that doesnt limit my actions like quickshot does.

Quote:

freeing up a prep' really doesn't matter since you'd still be doing comparable damage.

You think that the damage reduction (which is not mentioned in the skills description) is so great that it is comparable to not having a damage prep at all? How about when you consider that I wont only be shooting "poison arrow attacks?" If there really is some sort of damage reduction, my regular attacks would still give me more damage than if I took Apply Poison instead of a better prep. I think, unless your job is to spread poison, apply poison is one of the worst ranger preps.

Quote:

Basically it's an elite answer to a non-elite problem And what problem is that? All I'm looking for is more damage.

VGJustice

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2005

Tyria, cappin' ur bosses

Boston Guild [BG]

R/W

22 Nov 2005 at 04:19 - 44

I actually found a use for PA in PvE. I made a R/Me with Fragility, and set my Wilderness Survival to 0. Cast Fragility, hit with PA, wait 5 seconds, hit again. You get a slight damage boost from Fragility and 10 seconds worth of poison, and an extra bang when the poison ends. Better if you stack status effects, as always, but this was effective.

But, seriously, PA is just a bad idea in PvP. Mend Ailment + Divine Boon. If you put anything else on that character, you just gave me a free healing spell, thanks!

entropy

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

N/W

22 Nov 2005 at 20:16 - 45

The thing is why run a sub-par build? Every build should have some type of goal in mind in the team. Damage go quickshot. Conditions apply poison+crippling shot. There are better ways to do things so why run it? Whats the use for poison arrow? 8dps?

Eonwe

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

New Jersey

Idiot Savants

22 Nov 2005 at 20:25 - 46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morty

All I'm looking for is more damage. So you decided to go with poison arrow? Oh boy. There are a plethora of better options at your disposal, please use them.

MSecorsky

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

So Cal

The Sinister Vanguard

Me/

22 Nov 2005 at 20:42 - 47

You know... just for farting around in the CA, I take Poison arrow, Hunters, Dual, Distracting, Kindle, Whirling, Trolls and a rez. Textbook or uber-build? No, I'm sure of it. However, I eat most squishies, including monks, and eles are a walking buffet. Warriors also entertain me as they die, for the most part... hit that running bugger with hunters and PA... ah, I entertain easily.

Anyhow, there's nothing wrong with PA. Enjoy it.

a cadet

Academy Page

Join Date: Nov 2005

22 Nov 2005 at 20:54 - 48

The reason why so many people even use the Poison Arrow elite is no doubt because it is probably one of the first ranger elites you can capture in the PVE mode of the game.

With that said, the only case where it might have a real use is when you already have a preparation. The only one i can think of right now that might force the use of Poison Arrow is Choking Gas; but in most builds people have mentioned in this thread i feel that they would do better with Apply Poison as the preparation.

Neo-LD

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2005

USA

[GSS][SoF][DIII]

22 Nov 2005 at 21:29 - 49

plain and simple, poison only does 8 dps which is fairly insignificant. also, the poison is easily removed and at the same time as being removed it will give back more hp than the dmg it inflicted. (for example, mend condition wil remove poison and give more than 100 hp) meaning that your poison woul dhave to be there for mor than 12s to have an actual positive dmg impact. now, we are debating whether or not poison arrow can even break even at 0, so i doubt that we can be comparing it to awesome elites like quick shot that allow for the huge dps good rangers are capable of.

Re:tired

Join Date: Nov 2005

22 Nov 2005 at 21:52 - 50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morty

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. Your first sentence implies that it is easily removed. The third says you wouldn't remove it (so I would do the full poison damage).

I'm saying its easily removed, but it's not on my list of priorities as a monk because it really doesn't do anything terrible. And for an elite thats pretty sucky.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morty

I understand what you are trying to say, but I just wanted to point out that if you actually get some heals off, then ranger spike is actually quite easy to heal through (and save the target). You have been playing against some wack ass ranger spike.

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

23 Nov 2005 at 00:07 - 51

Quote:

Originally Posted by a cadet

The reason why so many people even use the Poison Arrow elite is no doubt because it is probably one of the first ranger elites you can capture in the PVE mode of the game.

I think there's a bigger issue than that, and it's how most players end up with the builds they use. I don't think most players look over complete skill lists and make builds based on that - they play with the skills they have, and modify their build as they find new skills. Elites are not acquired until you're close to the end of the game, likely after most players are already comfortable with their characters and skillsets.

The trouble here is that many elites, and *particularly* Ranger elites, are extremely powerful but rather narrow. You can't capture your first elite, Marksman's Wager, drop it into your build, and expect it to do a whole lot.

The strength of Poison Arrow to the average player isn't the power of the skill, but how seemlessly it fits onto his skill bar. He can capture the skill and put it in place of some other shot and the guy will continue to play just the way he used to, except now he can apply some DoT to his target. Is this a strong use of his elite slot? Of course not. But the skill is seemless and reasonably strong (stronger than most non-elites, at least), so it's exactly what people want.

Quote: Originally Posted by Morty I'm not using it to 'spread poison around,' I'm just looking for an easy damage add that doesnt limit my actions like quickshot does. Quote: Originally Posted by Ensign The only time Poison Arrow shines is against a low number of targets without removal, where you want to poison a couple targets then switch back to damage mode. Is Poison Arrow really the elite you want in that case, though?
Quote: Originally Posted by Morty You think that the damage reduction (which is not mentioned in the skills description) Skill descriptions lie. Poison Arrows deal a bit over half normal damage.

Quote: Originally Posted by Morty is so great that it is comparable to not having a damage prep at all? If you're spreading poison, yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morty

How about when you consider that I wont only be shooting "poison arrow attacks?" Then I submit that there are other elites that are going to perform significantly better, Quick Shot foremost amongst them. I'm terribly unimpressed by an elite that only deals 8 DPS to 1-2 targets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morty

I think, unless your job is to spread poison, apply poison is one of the worst ranger preps. I'd agree with this assessment, though I submit that the same sort of analysis will tell you the same thing about Poison Arrow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morty

And what problem is that? All I'm looking for is more damage. The 'applying pressure through distributed DoTs' problem. That's what the skill is good at, no?

You're using it as a way to get 'more damage' onto a single target, and I won't argue that it does that...only that it's a particularly *bad* tool for that job.

Peace,
-CxE

Morty

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2005

23 Nov 2005 at 01:28 - 52

Anyone have a decent quickshot build I can play around with in RA? I haven't used quickshot in a long time, so I forgot the build I used to use with it.

When I plugged it into my current build, removed TF, and tweaked the attributes, I wasn't terribly impressed. I'd like to give it another try though, so can anyone help me see what all the fuss is about? (remember, I'm not looking for a spiker here, I want someone who can pump out the damage, and not stop).

Neo-LD

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2005

USA

[GSS][SoF][DIII]

23 Nov 2005 at 03:39 - 53

quick shot is not a skill you can just plop into your skill bar and play regular ranger with, as ensign alluded to. if you were unimpressed, i am sure you were probably not using right.

the way to use quick shot is to fire a normal arrow, and immedeatly after the arrow leaves the bow hit quick shot and your ranger will shoot the next arrow very quickly. let your ranger fire anotehr regular arrow, and follow with an immedeate quick shot. Repeat this sequence many times. You will notice that your oerall rate of fire nearly doubled.

as you become more advanced with the qs build, you can substitute other arrow attacks like dual shot or penetrating shot in placeof where you were firing normal arrows, so an actual sequence might look like

(activate dmg prep) (enter TF)[repeat] dual -> qs -> debilitating -> qs -> penetrating -> qs [/repeat]

also, you should be watching your target, waiting to pounce on any easy interupts like signets and other 1+ second casts.

Iraqalypse Now

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2005

Seattle, Wa

Nuclear Babies

E/Mo

23 Nov 2005 at 04:30 - 54

also, you can run other buffs on top of the preparation... the best ones are conjure flame + kindle arrows, and RTW + Judge's Insight. 13 expertise for a 2 energy quick shot is a must, and having a zealous bow to help out too is good.

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

23 Nov 2005 at 10:20 - 55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Skill descriptions lie. Poison Arrows deal a bit over half normal damage. Further testing with Poison Arrow reveals that the skill uses your Wilderness level as your Marksmanship level when calculating base arrow damage with this skill. In theory you can do some fun things with a 16 Wilderness Poison Arrow spammer, since he'd act just like a 16 Marks guy but without the attribute investment.

Peace,
-CxE

Re:tired

Join Date: Nov 2005

23 Nov 2005 at 10:40 - 56

Wow, interesting. Good work Ensign.

Morty

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2005

23 Nov 2005 at 12:32 - 57

Quote:

Further testing with Poison Arrow reveals that the skill uses your Wilderness level as your Marksmanship level when calculating base arrow damage with this skill. In theory you can do some fun things with a 16 Wilderness Poison Arrow spammer, since he'd act just like a 16 Marks guy but without the attribute investment. Wow, no wonder I never noticed the damage decrease, I usually run at least 11 wild.

Thanks for the tips on quickshot. I remember now that that's how I used to do it (normal shot, quicshot, normal shot, quicshot...). I was using kindle+conjure flame+vampiric as my damage buff.

Pharalon

Beta Tester

Join Date: Jan 2005

Carebear Club

23 Nov 2005 at 12:41 - 58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Further testing with Poison Arrow reveals that the skill uses your Wilderness level as your Marksmanship level when calculating base arrow damage with this skill. In theory you can do some fun things with a 16 Wilderness Poison Arrow spammer, since he'd act just like a 16 Marks guy but without the attribute investment.

Peace,
-CxE Unfortunately further further testing reveals that you still need to meet the bow requirements to get full damage. So the base bow damage is determined by your marks level, while all the damage equations use Wilderness Survival. So unfortunately you still can't make a Marksless bow user.

Laurelin Goldtree

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2005

East Coast, US

The Fellowship of Lost Elves [TFLE]

23 Nov 2005 at 15:56 - 59

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

It does affect frenzy. It affects a lot of warrior stuff, i.e. stances, shouts, attack skills, skills, and the like. At 14 expertise your frenzy costs 2 energy. It shouldn't...I'd know very well that for my ranger, 5 energy for her skills really means 2 but for her secondary, 5 energy means 5 energy...

NatalieD

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

23 Nov 2005 at 16:24 - 60

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laurelin Goldtree

It shouldn't...I'd know very well that for my ranger, 5 energy for her skills really means 2 but for her secondary, 5 energy means 5 energy... Is your secondary warrior? Expertise doesn't affect spells, which includes most of the skills from the other four classes.

Morty

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2005

23 Nov 2005 at 16:55 - 61

It's definately a change. I'm certain that it wasn't like that when I started playing (in the beta).

Shwitz

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

East Coast, USA

Not a Guild [NaG]

23 Nov 2005 at 17:02 - 62

I might get flamed for this, but Melandru's Arrows {E} is the best of both worlds when it comes to degen and damage. When messing around in the Comp. Arenas, lots of targets are enchanted (boon monks, mending wars, attunements on ele's, necro's using Awaken or Blood Renewal, etc...). With that in mind, Mel's Arrows do more damage than Kindle, add 3 degen from bleeding (which is less noticeable than poison since the health bars don't turn eye-catching green), and only cost 5 to prep. I've been using this build in the Comp. Arenas for a bit now, and to great effect:

R/Mo
14 Expertise
12 Marksmanship
11 Wilderness Survival

1. Melandru's Arrows {E}
2. Lightning Reflexes
3. Dual Shot
4. Distracting Shot
5. Penetrating Attack
6. Pin Down
7. Throw Dirt
8. Res Sig

Poison Arrow gives you one more pip of health degen on your target, but Mel's Arrows has the opportunity to do a nice amount of damage in addition to applying degen. That, and bleeding is much easier to ignore or overlook. Just a thought...

EDIT: If you don't mind using a Warrior secondary, you could use Frenzy as your stance instead of Reflexes. I prefer Reflexes for the evasion and the lack of double damage. If you played with the attributes a little, you might be able to find a sweet spot for using Tiger's Fury too.

jesh

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

San Diego, CA

Penguin Village

Mo/

23 Nov 2005 at 18:41 - 63

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morty

It's definately a change. I'm certain that it wasn't like that when I started playing (in the beta). I've been playing since the feb betas, and while I didn't start a ranger until the last beta event, I can tell you it's been like this for a long time. The key word is "skill", expertise never affected spells. Vampiric Touch, Contemplation of Purity, Dust Trap, Savage Slash, any stance including mantras.. just some examples of *skills*, and they will be affected by expertise.

As for Melandru's Arrows, it's definitely a great elite, but I've never had a chance to play with it. No one will flame you for using a good elite. Unlike poison arrow. *cough*

Shwitz

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

East Coast, USA

Not a Guild [NaG]

23 Nov 2005 at 19:09 - 64

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

As for Melandru's Arrows, it's definitely a great elite, but I've never had a chance to play with it. No one will flame you for using a good elite. Unlike poison arrow. *cough* You'd be surprised how many people out there have a strong dislike of Melandru's Arrows. Whenever I'm in the arenas, at least one person sees me prep'ing Mel's Arrows and stops to tell me what a n00b I am. Having played a ranger for most of my GW experience, I wouldn't exactly call myself a newbie by any means... but everyone seems to think they know better, and that Mel's Arrows are either a) misused by me in some way; b) a crappy elite that is overshadowed by all the other ranger elites; or c) too situational (referring to the enchantment stipulation of the bonus damage). In PvP, I happen to think its one of the finest elites out there, and unless you're trying to stack poison on top of bleeding from Hunter's Shot or another character's skills (like a sword warrior's Sever Artery), its at least as effective if not more effective than Poison Arrow or Apply Poison alone. In PvE, its a different story, as there are a bunch of non-fleshy mobs that aren't affected by bleeding OR poison, and they're not always enchanted, making many other ranger elites preferable in many PvE areas. Anyway, I think I've talked that out of my system.
*Gets off of soapbox*
Poison Arrow is good in PvP only when the opposing team is unprepared to deal with conditions or when you have some way to shut down their condition control. If you are able to disable their prot monk somehow (or whoever is Martyr'ing or mending conditions), then you can proceed to poison everyone in sight with reckless abandon. 4 pips of health degen on multiple people adds up. You have to make sure to take out that condition control though, otherwise Poison Arrow is only a nuisance.

EDIT: I must have said "in some way" at least 4 times in that post. I need to proof-read and vary my vocabulary... edited a few out so that I don't sound like a total goof.

jesh

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

San Diego, CA

Penguin Village

Mo/

23 Nov 2005 at 20:27 - 65

I still wouldn't take it.. at level 20, 8 dps is healable through.. anything. Makes me wonder if an ele could heal through it with Aura of Restoration.

I can see taking it to the ascalon arenas, where people don't know their left hand from their right, and have less than 200 hp. But anywhere else, and I start to wonder why that skill is still on the bar.

rii

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2005

23 Nov 2005 at 21:26 - 66

Stop talking about 8dps...of course thats bs. The whole point is its on their whole team. Not 8dps.... try 64dps (a low grade warrior additons to dps).... and whatsmore, you should be at least getting bleed on there as well..... and disease isnt exactly hard to spread is it? Conditions teams should be looking at maintaining around 160dps across the enemy team, and then setting up a reasonable-ly/half-baked dps from their bows, preps, orders, whatever.

Isolating conditions on their own is asking to get owned... if you want degen you aim for max degen... if you want damage aim for max damage.... I dont know what the op is trying to do (i cant be bothered to go back and look) but frankly if im running conditions id rather stack them and have them martyr botting (whilst being humilified) and mending like hell, then throw some debils their way and spike them.... then see what they do. If you layer some nice deep wounds in there, then find the guy with martyr and start hitting him with some nice al ignoring spike your already half shutting out the guy delivering a martyr or he gets it in the face -.-

sun is in us

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2005

Organic Soup

Of the Day

Me/

23 Nov 2005 at 21:30 - 67

Well since I run a R/N (one of the few non-touch) I use apply poison to cover Life Transfer actually. The -10 regen for 11-12 seconds tends to be surprisingly effective. And since this thread seems to assume there is a monk in every encounter I guess you are discounting RA. In tombs, Teams, and GVG I understand poison in any form doesn't look so hot.

But I can't even count how many people it has finished off in RA for me though...

White Designs

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2005

Illinois

None

23 Nov 2005 at 21:49 - 68

Quote:

Originally Posted by sun is in us

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

23 Nov 2005 at 21:49 - 69

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

Stop talking about 8dps...of course thats bs. The whole point is its on their whole team. Not 8dps.... try 64dps If you're keeping it on their whole team then Apply Poison is better. If you're not trying to keep it on their whole team and just 1-2 guys, then Poison Arrow is strong...but 8 DPS.

That's the argument in a nutshell.

Peace,
-CxE

jesh

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

San Diego, CA

Penguin Village

Mo/

23 Nov 2005 at 21:58 - 70

Apply poison can be used on the whole team, poison arrow, I think not. As for stacking conditions, I don't see any other conditions that he's using either.
Meh Ensign beat me to it.

Hell Marauder

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

23 Nov 2005 at 22:13 - 71

entropy

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

N/W

23 Nov 2005 at 23:55 - 72

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Marauder

Poison arrow does have one advantage over apply poison, in that you can choose which target to poison and which not to. There are times you don't want to poison the whole team. Obviously a necro is someone you don't want to poison, but if you use apply poison, you either have to avoid hitting that necro for entire 24 sec prep duration or risk getting your own teamates poisoned along with that necro. so what if your teamates get poisoned let him waste 5 energy and you keep on hitting him with apply poison. And that one advanatage is well pretty crappy. If you want to degen a whole team get a necro and have him spam tainted on everyone. Tainted+rotting flesh in tombs is great if you can keep it up.

Hell Marauder

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

24 Nov 2005 at 15:04 - 73

I bet someone might have said it but it's worth mentioning again. Poison arrow is an elite not simply because it causes poison, but because you can use it while another prep is on. I personally like Read To Wind as a prep with poison arrow onboard. Disease is better at mass degen. Prep like apply poison should be compared to another prep, like RTW or Kindle Arrow or elite Melandru's arrow. Poison arrow is on its own, and you can use it while another prep like RTW or kindle is on. Best yet, it doesn't cause your team's monks unnessary grief. Apply Poison has bad side effect when you run into a team with heavy necro secondary, and necro is quite popular as secondary. So carry Apply Poison on board for nice degen, but first consult with your team's doctors first and don't go crazy with it.

Morty

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2005

24 Nov 2005 at 19:48 - 74

As far as I'm concerned, for many ranger builds, the preparation is just as important as the elite. And you can only use one at a time, so they are sort of like elites in that respect. In this build, I think it's more important to have the right prep than it is to have the right elite. The elite is more a compliment to the prep than the other way around.

Re:tired

Join Date: Nov 2005

24 Nov 2005 at 20:25 - 75

Wow, your totally wrong.

The elite is elite for a REASON, it is generally the key skill your character build is based around, and the most important one to get right.

It really is this simple:

Both spread poison.
Both take one skill slot.
One is elite, one isn't.

A bit of a no-brainer really.

rii

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2005

24 Nov 2005 at 20:59 - 76

Dont try and base it on some weird theory theory. If you want to spread poison to the majority of the other team, apply poison is the best thingy in terms of efficiency, utility, etc. If you want damage as well... may i suggest power shot.

Re:tired

Join Date: Nov 2005

24 Nov 2005 at 21:01 - 77

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

entropy

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

N/W

24 Nov 2005 at 21:42 - 78

this isn't about power shot...

VGJustice

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2005

Tyria, cappin' ur bosses

Boston Guild [BG]

R/W

24 Nov 2005 at 21:42 - 79

A) I don't think rii was talking to you, JR-

B) Agree'd

sun is in us

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2005

Organic Soup

Of the Day

Me/

25 Nov 2005 at 01:56 - 80

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Designs

Please show me how you use a condition to cover a hex. I want the monk to see on first glance one or the other so reflexively the will remove the condition first etc......not a traditional "cover" as the thread was contextual (bleeding can take moment to be seen on the bar for a monk etc).

So you noticed I never said "Covering Hex" anywhere in my previous post....you assumed that. Hope now it is more clear. Not much time, but just adds another step etc.

So I find some monks will take off the poison then turn away....taking an extra moment or two to understand that the degen is actually coming from the hex and not the poison....buying me some more time for LT to take a bit out of them. Not much, and not with a good monk etc....but it does help.