Guild Wars Guru

AI adjustment ~ SF/UW/FoW (fixing the gear/keg trick)

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Damon Windwalker
Krytan Explorer
• #41
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Acolyte
Why are you in these forums then??!! The point of these forums is to discuss game design and identify opportunities to make the game better. You should be arguing with the administrator to get rid of these forums based on your quote.
Well - I don't know about you, but I come here to learn more about the game, get ideas from others, ponder things about the new release. I'm not really here to change the game.

Quote:
Look, you've identified you don't like the update, and that's fine. But to tell myself and others that we are in the wrong to provide feedback on enhancing or changing elements of the game in a forum that promotes this line of thinking is asinine.
...and i believe that trying to force the entire community into playing the way that you think the game should be played is just as assinine. Be honest - your argument isn't about improving the game - it's about improving the game for you. Your only real justification is because you can't find enough people who want to play this way (hint, hint), and you don't find it challenging enough playing this way. Rather than go it the hard way and create your own challenge, you want it changed to bring everyone in line with how you think it should be. Here's a news flash - people will just find another way that you may not like. That's why I say to just let people play the way they want, and roll with it. I don't think we're too far off from each other on that, at least.

Quote:
EDIT: I have played and will continue to play the game as is. My request is that the game be adjusted so that the "advanced" levels are at the very least designed to be played as an advanced player.
...in the way that you think that it should be played....
darkdragon99
darkdragon99
Banned
• #42
you 2 sound like parrots repeating yourselfs over and over and over it's pointless neither side is gonna give so y are you doing it
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Damon Windwalker
Krytan Explorer
• #43
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkdragon99
you 2 sound like parrots repeating yourselfs over and over and over it's pointless neither side is gonna give so y are you doing it
because it's a slow day at work, and I have nothing better to do
The Acolyte
The Acolyte
Lion's Arch Merchant
• #44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker
because it's a slow day at work, and I have nothing better to do
/agree
The Acolyte
The Acolyte
Lion's Arch Merchant
• #45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker
Well - I don't know about you, but I come here to learn more about the game, get ideas from others, ponder things about the new release. I'm not really here to change the game.
Look...the point of this forum as stated when entering the forum is "For those in the Sanitarium, a fine line seperates genius and madness. Game Suggestions"...
darkdragon99
darkdragon99
Banned
• #46
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Acolyte
Look...the point of this forum as stated when entering the forum is "For those in the Sanitarium, a fine line seperates genius and madness. Game Suggestions"...
yeah it's too bad i crossed that line afew miles back

i've never even been to these areas your compaining about i haven't even made it to the dessert
The Acolyte
The Acolyte
Lion's Arch Merchant
• #47
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkdragon99
yeah it's too bad i crossed that line afew miles back

i've never even been to these areas your compaining about i haven't even made it to the dessert
hahahaha....they should just retitle this entire forum the great debate. I think there are a lot of people that enjoy the debate more than the topic...hahaha

You are joking about not getting past the desert, right? (PM me if you need help ) Also, I thought the saying was "there never was a genius without a tincture of madness." So I'm thinking the mention of A "line" was from the insane...hmmm....a whole new thread....
yesitsrob
yesitsrob
Elite Guru
• #48
Mobs focusing you because you have the Keg, Lever, Enchanted Torch or whatever is pretty ridiculous - and taking advantage of it is really taking advantage of a dumb AI. The AI most certainly shouldn't be brought to a stage where a level 20 enemy can match a level 20 player BUT they shouldn't be so dense as to attack someone because they are holding an object.

Such a change shouldn't screw anyone over - and if it does screw you over then you need to be not so pathetic to be able to cope with such a minor change. If people were to oppose a change like this it would be as laughable as the people who bitched about the mobs not standing under AoEs anymore because their braindead echo nuking no longer worked

I really couldn't care less if they changed the AI in this case. I would however laugh at people who complained they couldn't control the aggro by "picking up an object" -

Look at Glint, she's so damned easy because you can have one person carry an egg and strafe the whole match.
Carinae
Carinae
Forge Runner
• #49
Well, for the record... Ending the gear/keg/book/staff trick would be fine with me.

I know several warriors that think Gear Tanking is extremely boring. If this makes it more interesting for them, so be it. The Art of Aggroing is a lots art nowadays because of gears.

Just don't nerf necros. I haven't seen anything (yet) that's abusive/exploitative about the new MM/SS builds.
Undivine
Undivine
of Brackenwood
• #50
You know, I played as my protection monk for a run through FoW where the group decided to do the book thing. The warrior did all stance skills and had 0 attribute points in any weapon skills. We brought a full team with us.

I was bored. I kept casting my spells, but none of them did any good. Thats because the tank's stances were impecable and non of the enemies would attack anyone but him. I was useless there.

The other monk, the healer, would cast a breeze now and then, but beyond that did absolutely nothing. That's because he wasn't needed either. I was bored. Our other monk was bored. Our blood necro was bored. The only people who actually felt useful on that trip was our eles and the tank (this was before the AI patch). I didn't know when we started the trip that we were going to do that dumb book thing, or I would have brought different spells more from my secondary.

The gear/book/etc trick is dumb. Just drop it.

/signed
Undivine
Undivine
of Brackenwood
• #51
You know, I played as my protection monk for a run through FoW where the group decided to do the book thing. The warrior did all stance skills and had 0 attribute points in any weapon skills. We brought a full team with us.

I was bored. I kept casting my spells, but none of them did any good. Thats because the tank's stances were impecable and non of the enemies would attack anyone but him. I was useless there.

The other monk, the healer, would cast a breeze now and then, but beyond that did absolutely nothing. That's because he wasn't needed either. I was bored. Our other monk was bored. Our blood necro was bored. The only people who actually felt useful on that trip were our eles and the tank (this was before the AI patch). I didn't know when we started the trip that we were going to do that dumb book thing, or I would have brought different spells more from my secondary... and still probably would have felt like a fifth wheel.

The gear/book/etc trick is dumb. Just drop it.

/signed
Praetor
Praetor
Frost Gate Guardian
• #52
I read about half the posts and ignored the rest. Some ppl write epics, while other ppl write whines.

Anyways, if you plan on nerfing those common builds for farming, fixing the gear/keg/book exploit, and doing whatnot, a.net better equilize it in that they should be expecting 7 or 8 member parties to go in together. Thus, I say (in optimism for those nerf-whiners) that ALL bosses should drop ALL their possible greens, but no single member can obtain more than 1 green from that particular boss at that time. This would also help out the green market, as supply of greens increases, yet demand relatively unchanged or reduced.

Another thing, if brohn stoneheart and bortak bonesmelter spawn "fairly" like the other bosses, maybe we won't see 100k +10 ecto for 1 over-rated brohn's holy rod.
BBoy_Manchild
BBoy_Manchild
Banned
• #53
poor acolyte, with your closed minded way of seeing things. monsters seeing fiends and minions and going right after necro would create a whole new "holding item" trick, instead of keeping the warrior alive, monks would focus on keeping necro alive, granted necros are soft targets, it would almost be just as easy
Undivine
Undivine
of Brackenwood
• #54
I feel it's important to plug these sort of exploits. Even if you technically have the choice to not play this way, in reality you often don't.

Some of us happen to rely on PUGs. I don't play often enough to play with a consistent set of friends; they all inevitably pass me. Because I can't play as much as them, I have to play on my own and PUGs are the answer to my woes. But if there is an easy way to play (even if that way of playing will not be fun for you), the PUGs are going to want to do it. If you want to play with a group of people, you have to play their way or you'll have a hard time finding a group.

In fact, why even bring the "non-essential" classes? If you can clear FoW with just a warrior and a couple eles, you don't need to bring anyone else. It's a very easy strategy that does not involve any other classes. Even if they'll need one or two skills from another class, secondary professions can fill that. I think it's in Anet's interest to keep every class useful. That's the whole point of balancing. Not all of us play warriors or eles. I tried playing a warrior and got bored. It just wasn't my kind of class.

You want each class to shine in their own right. You do not want any one class to be so useful that they make other classes obsolete. Plug exploits. Make changes. Go ahead: NERF!
The Acolyte
The Acolyte
Lion's Arch Merchant
• #55
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBoy_Manchild
poor acolyte, with your closed minded way of seeing things. monsters seeing fiends and minions and going right after necro would create a whole new "holding item" trick, instead of keeping the warrior alive, monks would focus on keeping necro alive, granted necros are soft targets, it would almost be just as easy
careful, I know this thread is becoming lengthy, but I even called this out in my first post. Maybe if you tried reading the entire thread you wouldn't make a comment based on a fallacy?

I've already stated that making adjustments to the MM class in place of just fixing the book trick is not ideal, for that very reason. If the holding the item trick stays and the MM class modified, the holding item trick will just reveal another weakness. I'm relatively ok with the necro class as is without the book trick. I think the journey to SF is MUCH more fun and challenging than actually farming SF.

EDIT: Also, you're idea wouldn't work if my MM adjustment was put in place, because there is NO way a necro would ever be able to get enough minions up that the minions would be able to hold up as a "shield" (and the necro in essence the metaphorical book/keg/gear/rod/etc). When one or MAYBE two bone fiends pop up, the FIRST thing a good group does is find and kill the necro, because good players know too many minions = death.
S
Sharpe_116
Frost Gate Guardian
• #56
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Acolyte
sorry that this upsets you. I guess what I'm beginning to be very bothered by are the responses stating that they don't like it without actually stating why (????)

My current assumption is because they feel comfortable with the ease of today's setup. Playing the game right now is too easy. There is little challenge outside of running these farming runs so many times in the hopes of getting a green item you're looking for. Those that don't like the idea of revamping the gear/keg/boo/rod/etc trick are most likely the same ones that are exploiting the technique for their own gain.

Come on...I thought the point of this format was to focus on ways to make the game more balanced, more challenging, more fun, and more cooperative. I hardly think that using the gear/book/keg/rod/etc trick promotes this.

Like I said earlier, I KNOW I'm going to get flamed. But come on...at least put up the reasons why you don't like this. Maybe I'm missing the point behind the trick....maybe it's not an exploit...

On the other hand, maybe it is a component of the game that needs to be fixed. Like I said, one of two things needs to be resolved. Either this new fad of minion armies needs to be balanced like the AoE (since it's highly AI stupid to let more than 10 minions pop without a huge level of agro moved to the necro), or the gear/keg/book/rod/etc trick needs to be revamped. I vote the latter, only because fixing the minion master will reveal another class that can exploit the trick.
well im sorry if u missed my point. I included why i dislike the idea. I didnt just post *i dont like it* now did I????
The Acolyte
The Acolyte
Lion's Arch Merchant
• #57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharpe_116
well im sorry if u missed my point. I included why i dislike the idea. I didnt just post *i dont like it* now did I????
This is the quote I was referring to:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharpe_116
ok.. i do not liek this idea... please... but down the oversized nerf bat.... and back away..... i remember the good old days..... why cant they come back... before everythign was nerfed to oblivion.... as someone said. JUST PLAY THE GAME
...no, I don't think this explains why you don't like the idea. Did I miss another post?

Help me understand why the current exploit benefits the game (this is truly not stated sarcasticaly, I am truly all ears when it comes to this). I just have a hard time believing that Anet intended for the item to be used this way. I think it's working as designed, but that doesn't mean that is the way the item was meant to be used.

PLUG: Still calling for someone from Anet to confirm that the way the keg/book/gear/rod/etc items are being used to farm is how they meant them to be used. It would be really nice to have some dialogue with them on this
S
Sharpe_116
Frost Gate Guardian
• #58
Why i dislike this idea is. im an oldies guy :P. I really dislike the idea of constintly changing a game??? cant anyone just be happy with what they have???. Countinously changing the game is annoying lots of people, and satisfying lots of people?? now why is a-net narrow minded, and going with the group that enjoys it...granted. that i liked most of the updates... for example. Prot bond, when they nerfed that, i didnt care, made it harder for me *but still possible*. when they added nightmares to uw. GREAT, more challenge. but when the aoe update came............. o god..... they destroyed a portion of the elementilist... think about it... no one will ever use aoe spells again... they just ripped out around 10 spells from the game. not including all the monk smites. they just made the spells useless?? so can we please stop changing the game and enjoy the way it is .

*sorry if u did not understand my originall post * ill try to be more clear
Carinae
Carinae
Forge Runner
• #59
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Acolyte
EDIT: Also, you're idea wouldn't work if my MM adjustment was put in place, because there is NO way a necro would ever be able to get enough minions up that the minions would be able to hold up as a "shield" (and the necro in essence the metaphorical book/keg/gear/rod/etc). When one or MAYBE two bone fiends pop up, the FIRST thing a good group does is find and kill the necro, because good players know too many minions = death.
Now, see, you had to go say "NO way" didn't you?

Stances, Aegis, Wards, etc. Suddenly N/W is popular. Targeting the MM would just replace the gear tank, and you could probably still raise a significant army. You could DEFINATELY raise an army between battles and that would work just as well. As long as you can get a Verata's Sacrifice off (that's the most important one) you'll be ok.
Racthoh
Racthoh
Did I hear 7 heroes?
• #60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharpe_116
but when the aoe update came............. o god..... they destroyed a portion of the elementilist... think about it... no one will ever use aoe spells again... they just ripped out around 10 spells from the game. not including all the monk smites. they just made the spells useless??
Players still use AoEs just as effectively as before, and actually I find you can exploit them just as much as before. Now you drop a snare on a group of enemies as the AoEs come, and instead of continuing to attack your meatshield they attempt to run away. However, it's that kind of of strategy that gearholders will never develop.

Not to sound like a very arrogant player, but do you abuse the holding item trick? It would so deliciously prove my point.