A Petition to Stop Bait and Switch Scams

if people really don't believe this, we can do a quick check tonight when i am able to log on. you can buy a piece of iron from me for 1 gold and click "accept." after seeing this, i will try to scam you, modify it, and replace it with 1 wood. i am fairly certain that you need to click "accept" again in order for the trade to go through.

with regards to the scammer quickly switching the item as you were about to click "accept," then he must have been really fast and you didn't pay attention. when a trade is being modified, the trader's item row as well as the "accept" button are greyed out. this is clear visual indication of a modification in progress.

the reason why i am not signing, once again, is that the suggestion offers no real change for the current system. scammers will just keep doing the bait and switch tactic prior to this "locked" screen. either that, or they will do the cancel-reopen trade over and over tactic.

this "locked" screen, as i am understanding it, offers you the chance to look over the items one final time before clicking accept without worrying about a modified trade. isn't that the same as what you would do now? oh, "but the scammer can modify the trade" you say. that would be just like cancelling the "locked" screen and redoing the trade. it's a different way of modifying, but some scammers do try that now.

i'm not saying the suggestion is bad. it's also not very good, because essentially, it changes nothing.

I'm pretty sure this is all going to become redundant (spelled "auction house")

When have I called you a scammer, Damon?

I called xxhell a scammer b/c:

This guy admits he's a scammer, then doesn't sign the petition.

If that doesn't make my point, I don't know what will.

I fully admit I hit accept too fast. But, that does not change the fact that with the correct timing, (changing items as they click accept), you can scam anyone. I'm not trying to get my Black Dyes back (although that would be nice). I'm just trying to prevent future people from getting scammed.

Oh, and if telling people about this petition on related threads is a crime, please ban me. I'd rather have a scam debate in one thread, then spread out over several.

How long does the accept bar stay greyed out? I had no problem hitting accept...

actually, this issue can be boil down to a classic atomic transaction problem in computer science...

all that is needed is the following:

1. both parties needs to submit offer (update)
2. both parties needs to accept offer (commit)
3. if either party decided to modify offer, it goes back to prior to 1. I.e. both parties have to resubmit their offers and re-accept the offers.

we already have 1 & 2, what we need 3

if you really want to be stringent, a dialog box can even pop up that says your counterpart is modifying his offer, please double-check before re-submitting your offer and accepting it.

at that point, all that really could be done in terms of non-logged transaction handling is done.

As long as it takes for them to hit modify, make the changes and hit submit offer again. It's not rocket science...if you're making a trade, pay attention to that and only that. If you didn't see the message come up saying the offer was being modified, you weren't paying very close attention.

You know, I'm up for this. I'm sure many here will complain about having the "hassle" of resubmitting items if the deal is modified, but that's a small price to pay to help stop scammers.

I like the window warning, too.

For those of you who are saying "Buyer Beware" and "You deserve to be scammed" shame on you!

This game is about having fun, first and foremost. I think the least you can do is have a little extra security in trades to keep scamming down to a minimum.

1)Get into good/respectful guild.
2)Never trade to anyone outside the guild.

You can still get scammed from guild members but it is unlikely.

First time it had happened to me, honestly. I had made many trades prior without incident. I didn't know you could change money that quickly (also, I admit, I hit accept too quickly. Had I waited, this probably wouldn't have happened).

Still, why should everyone have to either read about how to avoid scams or be scammed themselves before they wise up? For many (like me) this is their first Online RPG experience.

I think anything that helps people out to let them know exactly what's going on in a trade is a good thing.

If there were to be a change, I would like to see something like a separate button to accept trades that had been modified. The accept modified offer would only come up if the offer had actually been modified and the accept button would be greyed out at that point.

The problem is that even if another window was opened, the actions to complete the trade would be the same regardless of whether a trade had been modified or not. You'd go through the same sequence, click the same buttons with a non-modified trade as with a modified trade. If there was a separate button for modified trades, the process for accepting the trade would be different and since it would be out of the norm, people would be more likely to review the deal.

Well, how about taking a page out of another spellbook:

How about an trade delay (similar to the after-cast delay) so that high-speed bait-and-switch cannot happen.

The delay would be 1-2 sec from the time the modify screen opened, until the time you could click OK. This would provide enough time for the other party to realize something was happening. Most people wouldn't notice this at all, only scammers.

How about you create your own trade delay by not hitting accept for 15 seconds or so to make sure they don't do that?

I agree with Damon on this. An automatic delay would just let scammers time their scam, it would not stop the problem.

Damon, if you want people to wait 15 sec before they accept anyway, why not a seperate "Accept Modified Trade" button? That would save you 15 seconds!

Because there is no need for it. As I (and others) have said repeatedly - if you trade intelligently you won't get scammed. Caveat Emptor.

...and what I am saying is that the system is fine as it is - all you need to do is pay attention to what you are doing. It's not ANet's responsibility to protect you from yourself...

No, but Anet could put in some safeguards to stop scammers from exploiting people!

If you choose to interpret it as such, that's your perogative. However, I didn't say that nor imply it.

They are already there. They are sufficient enough to keep what I daresay would be 99% of the people from getting scammed.

Look, I understand that you are pissed off that you cot scammed, and you want to find a way to blame it on someone else. But the system is fine as it is.

99%?!? Where did you get THAT number? I guarantee more than 1% of Guild Wars has been scammed....

You know, Damon, we can go back and forth on this. You aren't going to change my mind, I'm not going to change yours. In my mind, the system is NOT ok as is. It's too easy to scam people. The safeguards mentioned on this thread would not cause inconvenience.

I have yet to hear a decent argument against some sort of safeguard...

Argument 1: "It's not necessary." Obviously, something IS necessary, or there wouldn't be people getting scammed, now would there?

Argument 2: "It would cause incovenience." Come on. Adding another button or another screen would not cause that much inconvenience. As I've said, it will help stop scammers, and will probably lead to quicker trades.

Argument 3: "Better things for Anet to do". Possibly. But this is an easy fix, not like reprogramming AI, or fixing a "balance" issue. I'd rather they make a quick fix to the trading system to help poor "noobs" (I hate that word) from being exploited. I think in the end that will make more people happy for the effort spent.

(Not to say I DON'T want Anet to work on other issues, I recognize that those issues are more complex and will take longer to solve than adding a fail-safe to the trading system!)

either they put in something to help stop scamming or they start banned the scammers accounts. like they should have been from the god dam start and sence demon you seem to be a scammer wich one would you want.

HAHAHA - because I believe that people should take reasonable precautions to protect themselves from being scammed, that makes me a scammer? Your logic is astounding.

And BTW - watch your language, tone, and accusations.

Ok - prove it. You say it's a widespread problem - show exactly how widespread it is.


No, the correct statement would be "I have yet to accept any of the decent arguments against it."

If people paid closer attention to what they were doing, they wouldn't get scammed, now would they? That is all the argument necessary.

OK, darkdragon, let's keep this clean! No reason to accuse anyone of being a scammer (unless, like xxhell they admit it!)

But I agree with you 100%: More safeguards AND scammers need to be banned! (which I believe Anet does ban scammers, correct?)

who the hell els would be agueing against trying to stop scammers huh no one other than the scammers themselfs it's basic logic

No-one is arguing against stopping scammers. I just disagree with the idea presented. I believe that in the end, the ultimate responsibility lies with the person who is doing the trade. I don't believe that ANet is responsible to make sure that you don't get scammed. There is a good system in place, as long as you pay attendion and don't try to short-circuit it. I'm sorry if you can't understand that - but you still need to watch your accusations, and think before you type.

Mordakai, lol you nub, come on man you know the only reason you were scammed is because you blindly accepted the trade prior to verifying the contents and that is exactly what the scammer was hopin you would do.

You know this is fact and what you are proposing is for Anet/NCSoft to provide a safeguard that protects you from being just as lazy and uninterested in the trade as you were then. Perhaps I will ask Anet/NCSoft to introduce a safe house I can lay down in the middle of agro and run in there to protect me from being a bobblehead.

Mordakai, this does not make logical sense. If you were legitimately scammed when the trader had accepted and you accepted then realizing somehow what I traded in the window does not match what I saw, then there is a bug the trader took advantage of in the trade system and I agree with your rrecommendation.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...earchid=969571

100 threads dealing with scams.

That would mean there would have to be some decent arguments against it for me to accept!

(I noticed you didn't directly respond to the arguments I shot down one by one).

And if Anet put forth some sort of fail-safe, there wouldn't be as much scamming going on, would there?

Your "blame the victim" mentality is sickening. Guild Wars is supposed to be a new, revolutionary RPG, and yet, it can't have a secure trading system like Runescape apparently does!

That's just sad.

Ah, yes, I was waiting to be called a "noob". Probably why no-one ever started a thread like this. No one likes to be scammed, trust me. It hurts my pride, yes. Yes, I messed up. But am I wrong to want to protect future "noobs" from similar scams?

I don't think so.

Oh, and comparing combat to scams is just stupid. If I die, there is no permanent penalty.

If I lose 25,000 gold or more from scams... that represents significant more harm than dying from monters!

(and yes, I realize this is "just a game." But again, the point of any game is to be fun. Where is the fun in being scammed?)

people like you are the reason i don't trade with anyone. i believe there should be a merchant for everything cause if you get scammed your gonna get nothin but you are stupid and you should have watched closer.

[QUOTE=Mordakai]http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...earchid=969571

100 threads dealing with scams.

Scams in general. Not only bait and switch. There are plenty more out there... And there will always be scams, no matter what anyone does to stop them...



Well - I stood by my argument. As to more inconvenient - that one is kinda moot to me. As for ANet having better things to do - that one goes without saying.


Wow you are pretty thick. I'm not "blaming the victim." I'm not saying that scamming is right. But come on - if you don't take reasonable precautions to protect yourself, they what do you expect? Do you walk through known crime areas wearing flashy jewlry and with cash hanging out of your pockets?

I'm just tired of the entire "Someone else has to do everything for me" mentality that everyone has. It's the same as the "I don't want my kids to watch that on TV, so the FCC should ban it" mentality. Just exercise for personal responsibility and you'll be fine. It's just like all the scams that go in in R/L - they have them on the news all the time, and tell you "here's how to protect yourself." It's not the government's job to make sure that you don't get scammed, and it's not Anet's. Sure, they can punish the scammers...but it's your job not to get scammed in the beginning! It's really a simple life concept....

What do you mean by "people like me?"

People who make sure they don't get scammed? Why would that be a concern? Why is it that you keep saying "if you get scammed you're stupid?" No-one has said that but you.

What is your problem, anyway? Is your only method of debate to insult people who don't agree with you? Call them names?

Look - let me make it very simple for you.

YOU are the only one who can make sure that you don't get scammed. No-one else can do it. No matter what you do to stop scams, new scams will be created. It's a fact of life. So it is in your own best interests to make sure that you don't get scammed. I'm all for shutting down the scammers - but it's not ANet that has to do it - it's you, me, and everyone else's responsibility to protect ourselves. Just because I disagree with the effectiveness of a particular method doesn't make me a scammer, whether you can understand that or not - to imply otherwise demonstrates a serious thought process flaw.

Lol, Kai, I am not calling you a Noob. Nonetheless, Kai, I know your pride is hurt, I know you have an axe to grind, I know you are angry, and I am glad you admit you messed up, but isn't this where it ends? Mordakai was not paying attention and he was scammed! I am sure you will be more careful in the future.

However, recommending safeguards against you messing up and not paying attention is asking Anet/NCSoft to burden themselves with unnecessary programming. Now imagine you are successful. Then someone decides to request for programming to avoid the accidental sale of an item to the Merchant. Then someone asks for the ability to remove a Rune from armor without destroying the armor. Then...then....then... it can go on and on leaving Anet/NCSoft little time to program for the stuff we need like bug fizes and updates. Do you want to see Chapeter 2 anytime soon?

If you want to go in this direction, are you saying the Police have no responsibility for protecting people from criminals? Does Anet not have any repsonsibility to at least try and stop scams?

Meh, I've already explained that I don't think some extra security will slow down the production for Chapter 2!

Hell, if you feel that strongly about "wasting" developers time, tell them "No more Holiday surprises!" (which would be a shame).

If Anet can't fix the problem, that's fine. I just wanted to suggest a fix, since i think one is necessary (not to help me, I'm not planning on getting scammed again!), but to help the next guy!

If my 16,000 loss helps out a fellow GWer, it's worth the price.

Ahhh...now you get into an interesting philosophical discussion.

How can the police protect people from criminals? Other than just by their presence, the only real way would be to assign a cop to every person as a personal bodyguard, and one to stay with your home and vehicle to make sure they don't get broken into.

No, the only real way they can protect people is to find and lock up criminals after they have comitted a crime (to draw a parallel - ban scammers). This doesn't prevent crime, but does help reduce it. They can't actually "prevent" a crime before it's comitted (Have you ever seen Minority Report? ) However, it's your responsibility to lock your doors, try to stay out of high-crime areas, etc. to minimize the possibility of you being a victim of a crime (IE: take reasonable precautions).

(ok - this was compeltely off-topic lol)

WOW 1% --yea wow we sould act NOW!!! a whole 1% -- never mind normal game play issues 1% of the people are paying no attention to what they are trading!!! -uggh -ok now on to the line by line...

NO! the system does not have to change. Note: IMHO an auction house would help in trading items.

if your mind is closed to the possibility of being wrong then you are a fool.

I have given you plenty that you pay no attention to.

1. Time Suck -extra click on every transaction if no mistake is made.

2. Flustration -if a mistake(we are human, thats what we do) is made you must start an entirly new trade session. have you ever tryed to sell somthing in this game? it takes hours just to find a buyer...

3. Game Design -Time spent on fixing this non-issue is better spent on somthing else like an auction house.

4. Freedom -The government should not step in and help everyone pee just cause you miss the pot.

5. No Solution - there is no evidence that you extra clicking would stop any scamms at all. people continu to bait and switch the same way as before...

1. No Impact - life is not fair deal with it

2. No Quantifiable Impact - There is just not a large amount of scamming going on right now...

3. Not Unique - people are getting scammed in other ways - example: pushing off gold mixed dye that is missing silver...

1. Impossible - adding steps to the trading process in no way speeds up the process.

2. Emperically False - buracreacy never makes things more efficent.

1. No evidence - when you do the game programing ill listen to what you have to say about how "quick" it is.

2. Happyness is not increased with your system only flustration.

1. No evidence - why exactly are you qualified to determin the programing time?

Actually, the way to stop crime is to invest in education and economic development to provide other opportunities for people, as well as law enforcement. But I have a funny feeling we disagree on politics as well as gaming philosophies!

But I agree with you to an extent: people need to be careful. If nothing else, I hope this thread gets some more awareness of scams, so that people watch out for them.

Well - in theory that's the idea (hence teaching people how to look out for themselves and take reasonable precautions!) - but it's not a guarantee.

I hope so as well.

silly, i said MORE than 1%. Who knows the exact number, I suspect more people scammed don't want to admit it, anyway!


I am quite open to other possiblities. I've supported practically every security suggestion posted! I just think there should be MORE security to trades, bottom line. It's too easy for new players to be scammed, bottom line.

BTW, I do want an auction house. But I think an improvement needs to be made before then, esp. with all the new players who will get this game for Christmas.

Time suck? Please. How much time do you waste canceling scammer trades right now? Be honest. An extra click won't cost anymore time... ("Confirm MODIFIED Trade" was one idea)

You think an auction house is as easy to program as an extra button to confirm a modified trade?
What does the government have to do with this?
How do we know what a new fail-safe system would accomplish without trying it first? I'll be the first to admit it something is broken. Right now, trading IS broken (you say yourself, it takes hours to find someone. And when you do, chances are, he's a scammer).

LOL at point #1. If you spent $50 on a game, and it didn't work, you wouldn't be pissed?

I have no idea how to convince you that scamming is going on. If you don't believe it, I can't help you.
Yes, i recognize this won't solve all scams. But it will help stop the most common Bait and Switch scam.

It will speed things up if it cuts down the amount of scammers. How many scammers do you have to go through before you find a legitimate trader?
How is an extra button or window creating a "buracreacy"? You're reaching.

True, I can't prove any of this. But you can't prove that adding a button or window would be a huge programming challenge, or that it WON'T make the majority of players happy!


Bottom line: As we speak, new players are being ripped off. Some simple steps (maybe even some that aren't mentioned here) could be implemented to curb such behavior.

Will it end all scams? No. But anything to save anyone some hard earned Gold in this game can't be a bad thing, especially to someone new to the whole online RPG exp.

Just imagine this is your first time trading a big item, and you get ripped off of 20,000 gold. How would that make you feel?

You guys are making a big deal out of nothing.

How bout this:
Look at what your buying before hitting accept.
anet shouldn't idiot proof their transaction system. If you got scammed, it's your fault.

/signed

Its a great idea.

You all need to remember, there are newbies born every day who will fall to the scams some of the rest of us are smarter to avoid. Making sure that the trade can not be altered after the person agreeing to pay has submitted their agreement is a VERY good idea. And what ever your in a rush to do afterwards will still be waiting for you regardless of this extra step in the trade process.