A Petition to Stop Bait and Switch Scams

Ok, my point of view is that; if you get scammed, it's also your own mistake.

Ofcourse there are newbies every day, and some will fall for this. But then, as they still are newbies, they will have about a maximum of 1K to trade. (maybe something more, but you get the point: not very much).

Now if they lose that 1K, in the beginning it will be a big thing. But they also learn out of it that there are scammers and how scammers scam. This means they watch out in general, with who they trade.

Now lets say we get this double-accept thingy. People will stop paying attention to what they trade etc, because they think they can't be scammed anymore. There will always be new ways to scam, this accept-thingy, will only cause that people have the feeling they can't be scammed, while in reality, they can be.

I don't say that the accept-thingy is bad, but only want to show that there might be another disadvantage.
It's ok if you (and Anet) think this should be done, but I don't think it needs to be done. If Anet changes this, I hope they won't put aside the other priorities, which I think are more important.

Ahhh, but if you go beyond his ineloquent way of stating it, the core of the statement is true. By exercising some caution, one can protect themselves against scams. At the end of the day, there will still be scams, and the only way to keep them from happening, just like in real life, is to be cautious and protect yourself...

Now now...no need to be insulting about it. I agree with the basics of what you're saying - but just because someone doesn't take the precautions to protect themselves doesn't mean that scamming them is right...

Of course it's not right. It's a stupid idea however, to try and use a petition, especially one thats online, to try and change something that Arena.Net can't change. A.Net can't increase the average intelligence of Guild Wars players unfortunately. I would be glad to play with people that had more intelligence than your average piece of paper, but that would mean making a game of my own and only allowing intelligent people to play.

Kai, don't conveniently disregard this: "Nonetheless, Kai, I know your pride is hurt, I know you have an axe to grind, I know you are angry, and I am glad you admit you messed up, but isn't this where it ends? Mordakai was not paying attention and he was scammed! I am sure you will be more careful in the future."

Arena.Net is already having to rewrite a vast majority of the code in Guild Wars to add in Observer Mode and reconnects, so it will take time they don't have.

Look Bart, please do not suggest that a differing opinion is grounds for being a scammer. That is your frustration and is not logical. You were the one scammed, remember? I have read Kai and you suggesting this and it needs to stop.

Yes the majority opinion in this thread is that you guys did not exercise any proper care during your transaction. Just because you chose to be scammed by not paying attention to the trade does not suddenly make everyone who disents to your and Kai's opinion a scammer.

I am certain enough recommendations have been presented and enough information regarding how to trade effectively that anyone new to GW will be well aware of what not to do.

lol well I guess you wouldn't be playing that game considering you have a lower IQ than a tree stump.

If your mother steped out side today and got shot would you. A. blame her for being there or B. blame the guy who did it or C. demand something was done about it. I don't know about you but everyone i know would answer C

what you are saying is it's all the vitims fault so screw them thats is overly bullshit and you know it.

No, anyone with at least a double-digit IQ would realize that what he is saying is "No-one is saying that scamming is right - but you are responsible to protect yourself."

Think about it this way (if you have the cognitive capacity to do so):

Phishing schemes are huge right now - some estimates (my wife works for the disputes department for a large credit card company) are as high as $90-100 MILLION per year that people lose because of phishing schemes. An article I read yesterday estimates that 70% of all internet users get these emails, and 70% that receive them actually give up their info.

Now anyone with any common sense should know that if you get an email supposedly from your credit card company, saying that they need you te verify your name, address, account number, social security number, date of birth, mother's maiden name, etc. that something is ... well ... fishy about that.

The credit card company has warned all it's members that it would never request any sensitive information by email. There are warnings about it on the news all the time. Yet you still click the link and give them all that information.

Who's fault is that? The credit card company? The government? Your ISP? There *might* be things that each of them could do to prevent it, but probably not - who has the ultimate responsibility for clicking that link?

A lot of people for the past several years have known about the Nigerian E-mail scams. They have been all over the news. Anyone with any common sense should know not to give their bank account information and access codes to anyone - especially to someone they don't know in another country. Yet the FBI estimates that about a half a million dollars per year. Who's fault is that - the government? Your ISP? Your bank? In the end - it's your fault for not protecting yourself.


Everyone knows that scams are not right - in fact, in real life, they are illegal. Yet, again, the only way to get rid of them completely is for people to pay attention to what they are doing. in the game is no different. And just because you think that everyone who says "pay attention and protect yourself" makes them a scammer - believe it or not, it actually means that they realize that no matter what precautions are taken by the makers of the game, by law enforcement, by banks and credit card companies, or by the covernment - people are going to keep trying to scam others until they can't make money at it anymore - and the only way to keep that from happening is if the common person/consumer pays attention to what they are doing, and takes the responsibility to protect themselves.

Apparently you have no reading comprehension. You seemed to miss this little line:But yes, it is the victims fault if they don't have the intelligence to recheck and make sure the item is exactly what was offered. Don't be mad because you got scammed darkdragon99, learn from your mistake, if you can.

I can't believe this thread is still going (yes, I know I'm adding to it now). This whole thing can be summed up with one word. WAAAAAAA! Ok, it's not really a word, but you get the point. This is like rear ending someone and saying it was their fault for slamming on their brakes...nooooooo...you should not be tailgating, or speeding, or whatever. There comes a time when you must take responsibilty for yourself and not blame others for your misfortune. The lack of maturity, reason, and plain old common sense (which is definately not common at all) here is staggering. Time to stop expecting to be coddled.

what you don't understand is that i know those things what i'm saying is your rubbing that fact in their face it's it's total BS .

i'm a believer that this world is filled with morons but it's not just the ppl who fall for it. it the ppl who do it and it's also the ppl who wont do anything to help.

i have found that 99.99% of the ppl on this planet are stupid but if you tryed workin together it wouldn't be so bad. but no what you hear out of the heartless ashats that are you guys you should have been more careful now shut up and get a brain .

i'm gonna laugh when you find yourself in their shoes and find that there isn't anyone that is even gonna try and help you because this world no longer has a heart.

me i've never got scammed because i'm not dumb enough to trust even ppl i do know i wouldn't trade with a person even if i was gonna be paid for it

Can someone please translate what this unintelligent person is saying? I don't understand the language of stupid.

From what I've seen, the 'Accept' button is disabled until both parties have submitted their offer.

If one party decides to modify their offer, the acceptance is cancelled and the 'Accept' button is disabled. The trade window will also inform you that the offer is being modfied.

Once the modified offer is submitted, the offers are displayed and the 'Accept' button is enabled again.

Personally, I think it's fine as it is, there's enough visual clues to alert you that the offer has been modified.

1. The offer by the other party is removed
2. A message is displayed to inform that the offer is being modified
3. You are forced to click 'Accept' again

The system follows the rule that trade can only be finalised when both parties have accepted, which can only occur after both offers have been submitted. The only rule we have to follow is 'check before you accept'. If you have to accept again, then that is a good enough reason for you to check again.

I feel that the use of a 'locked' window (no modification allowed at this point) to be unncessary. If there was a geniune reason for modifying an offer, then that would only be possible if the trade was cancelled and restarted again. This is where I can see this extra step to create more 'hassle'.

As for additional buttons or messages, I've already listed 3 visual clues as examples, and they are either missed or ignored. It wouldn't be long before these new buttons and messages become part of the norm and go in the same way.

There already exist the safeguards necessary, but it would appear that (for whatever reason) they are overlooked or simply not used in the way they should.

Well, I agree that the "The lack of maturity, reason, and plain old common sense (which is definately not common at all) here is staggering."

But not for the reason you say.

To me, it's common sense to put some safeguards in place to help people from being scammed. People disagree, that's cool.

But just because you disagree with the idea of some simple safeguards to help prevent bait and switch scams, doesn't mean the idea is stupid!

Excellent post. The thing is, people are still being scammed, so these safeguards are, IMO, not enough.

I'll repeat my story because I'm sure people are not reading this whole thread:

I was selling two Black Dye. A player offered me 16 Plat. I opened the trade, saw the 16 Plat, placed my Dyes, and hit accept.

As I was doing that he switched his Plat to Gold. I did not see a warning. I could still hit accept (he did it really fast), so if Accept was greyed out I did not notice.

Obviously, in the future, I won't be so quick to accept.

BUT, after reading other scams and hearing others stories, I realized a "Lock" screen would eliminate the majority of Bait and Switch scams.

For that reason alone, I think it's worth the effort of Anet. Especially with Christmas coming, and a whole bunch of people who are going to be scammed joining the game.

All those hardened vets out there, reach back to your memories, and think about what it was like when you first started playing. Think about how you would feel as a new player being ripped off.

Then vote your conscience.

No, the basic simple facts of life are no BS. The only people who think that are people who have no clue what the world is actually like.

I wouldn't use the term "moron" - there are many people who just don't know. What we disagree on is the best approach to take to help the people who don't know. You think we should create a world where everything is bubble-wrapped, so no-one can hurt themselves. I believe that no matter what safeguards are still in place, people will still find ways to hurt themselves - so the best approach is to teach people to be careful and take care of themselves.

I'm really not sure what you are tyring to say, but I'll take a guess at it. In saying what you did, you are basically saying "people are too stupid to take care of themselves, and must be protected." I say the opposite - "People are smart enough to take care of themselves if you open their eyes to what to look out for." Maybe I just have more faith in people than you do.

If I get scammed, it's my own fault for not protecting myself. Many of the bad things that have happened to me in my life were because I made bad choices. I believe in personal responsibility. You don't. Maybe when you grow up, you'll understand.

Look, I've given you real-world examples, and I've given you game-world examples. You refuse to accept that there will always be scammers and scams no matter what anyone does to try to prevent it. You think there's a way to end scams, and there isn't. The only - ONLY- possible way to prevent being scammed is to protect yourself! It's as real in the game world as it is in the real world. It is stupid to think otherwise.

This entire thread can be summarized thusly:

Bart and Kai were scammed. The trader who scammed them was relying on certain facts about human behavior. In particular, the scammers were hopin that by misdirection, inattention to details, and general malaise they could bait and switch the items and gold traded without Bart and Kai being any the wiser.

This apparently was successful and Kai has admitted he learned a valubale lesson regarding trades and being more careful in the future. Kai thinks Anet/NCSoft should accomodate player inattention and malaise in an effort to protect the player from themselves. It is the majority opinion of this thread that ANet/NCSoft has no clear obligation to do so if the player is unwilling to protect themselves and it is clear no bug is present in the trade system.

Thus, the conclusion of this thread can simply be exercise more caution in the future and be aware of what it is the player is doing. Anything further just does not add constructively to this thread. Instead of focusing on how Anet/NCSoft are liable for player ignorance, suggest methods of avoiding being scammed in the future.

...wait... if you've been victimized by a bait and switch more than once - you've got to take at least some of the blame.

Good example of another scam:

When I was bringing my last character through pre, I noticed that there were always people in the city trying to get black dyes from people. Most common seemed to be the conversational "Hey - does anyone have any black dye? I'll trade an orange for a black..." or offers to buy black for 50 or 100g.

Should ANet be responsible to make sure that someone isn't scamming newbies out of their black dye, too?

I've been thinking about this. Honestly, I do think it sucks that unless you've been to Post you have NO IDEA what dye is worth. People use Black Dye on collector armor (like I first did) or sell it for one Gold to the Merchant.

The people "scamming" Black Dye are abusing their knowledge of the game... but so do ALL traders to some extent or another.

The only real solution is to put a Dye Trader in Pre. Since Anet didn't do this, I can only conclude they WANT people to get ripped off!

(BTW, side debate, is it morally wrong to "scam" Black Dye like this? Is it the same crime as a Bait and Switch? IMO, no, because the seller and buyer agreed to the price. A Bait and Switcher offers one thing and provides another, which is obviously fraudulent.)

To make another example, I don't know the price of Gold items to save my life. I've never gotten a "perfect" one, and I've never tried to buy or sell one. If I find a "perfect" Chaos Axe, or whatever is hot, and sell it for 5k, have I been scammed? No, because I got it for more than I could sell it to a Merchant, and could have asked around to find the "correct" price!

On this note, maybe I should try to get some Black Dye in Pre to make up my loss....

nah, I'm not that evil.

Agreed. But if that first scam was for 16k (my case) or 65k (in Bart's case) that's a tough lesson to take...

`

I don't think you should consider this as a scam. This is a totally legal trade, it's not like someone gives 5-10 gold instead of the 50-100 gold.
To the person selling, that black dye obviously was worth only 50-100 gold. Ok, he didn't know about Post-Searing, but he could have asked too.

Now dont start with:
I have been there too, (I bought someone else his armour ).

It's not fun, but in the end, I think you will be happier with your loss of 5-6K and the knowledge about how people scam, and as a result be sure you won't get scammed for that 50-60K later on.

BTW: I saw someone selling ~enslavement stones~ in Lions Arch, for the people who don't know, these are worth about 30gold. This guy is selling them for 60K!!!!

nicely put, some real intelligence at last. if u read the other thread i put my hand up to not being more aware but in my defense this type of thing obviously happens more in the US districts and it's only since coming here i see how widespread the problem is. as for being frustrated, yes i was a bit but not to the extent that i would go calling people names, thats the act of a child. i could go on and on but this whole thread has just turned into a slaggin match with the odd bit of sense thrown in here and there. at the end of the day as i said b4 i just wanted to make people aware of this person, NC-soft will deal with him. i just didn't want to see ne1 else get scammed in the mean time. still the whole issue has made good reading

I fail to see where I said "the idea is stupid". Actually, I didn't mention the idea of further safeguards at all. But since you brought it up...it is stupid. The safeguards are already in place. Both parties have to submit their offer. Then both parties have to hit accept. It was said that he "didn't notice" the box was grayed out or not. It's not a matter of not noticing. When it's grayed out, you can't click it. The logistics of the situation he is describing are impossible. What happened here is someone accepted a trade for gold when they thought it was for platinum. Whether that was misrepresented to him or not is beside the point now. The bottom line is that the buyer accepted a trade thinking it was something that it wasn't. I'm not saying it was done honestly or that it was right or whatever, but the safeguards are in place already to avoid such situations. People need to stop trying to blame their own lack of judgement, attention, or anything else on others. Take responsibility for your mistake, learn from it, and for God's sake, move on already.

I have. I'm doing this for others.

It's obvious there's a hole and that scammers would rather it remain

/signed

also auction house /signed, I can't tell you how many times I gave up trying to sell something and finally merchant it/give it away/whatever, and minutes later I see WTB exactly what I ditched/sold.

buy/sell matchups are abysmal in this game
I suppose I've been lucky enough not to be scammed simply because I dont do nearly the trading others do - I'd rather play than have the patience to line up the sale most of the time.

Honestly, with all the scams out there, I would recommend NOT trading until the implementation of an auction house or something simliar.

Most things can be bought and sold at merchants (how I wish I had done this with my Black Dye - my greed for 2 extra thousand cost me!)

If you have to buy/sell Gold and Green weapons: Good luck! And Buyer beware!

Although I resent the brain-dead implication that anyone who doesn't see this as being necessary must be a scammer, I do agree that the trading system sucks. Like you said, I don't do nearly the trading that I would do otherwise just because I'm here to play the game, no spend hours spamming "WTS" or "WTB"

The only things I've spent any time selling were greens...the only things I ever seem to buy are when I randomly happen to see something interesting when I'm waiting for a party to form up....

I've never been scammed myself and of course if your careful it'll never happen, but what's wrong with more security for trading, the extra 'locked' screen would take an extra 1-2 seconds in a trade, new players especially are vulnerable to this and why cant we make the game a better place for all?

/signed

ps. just because someone got scammed doesn't make them 'stupid' 'lazy' and 'dumb' like some less forgiving people are suggesting in here, sure it's careless but that doesn't mean we should ignore the scum bags who scam honest players every day, some people attitude towards this topic astounds me tbh.

Seriously, this isn't going anywhere. As much as I'd love to sift through pages more of "It's your fault" and "You must be a scammer", I'm going to have to say it's closing time for this thread. This isn't a "How many times have I been scammed, and was it my fault?" section.

When either side modifies a trade, the other person's "Accept" deactivates incase they're about to click the button. Bait/Switch should not be an issue with trades. You both have to click "submit offer" so both trades have been submitted/modified, and you both have to click accept allowing for plenty of time and oppurtunity to check over the trade before hitting the final "accept" button.

Closed.