The Signet of Capture System Goes Against Fun Gameplay
Siren
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Originally Posted by Lazarous
Laz, you're telling me that you honestly believed we were going to have all the skills in full retail? You didn't consider that "Unlock all Skills for Beta Weekend" meant something more than just "for the limited timespan of this one weekend, all skills are unlocked so all you PvPers can go crazy"? You didn't think that was the Dev approach from the very beginning with the Betas? You're smarter than that, Laz.
Just think about it from a Dev POV. You want players to experience as much of the game content as they can, so they can give you more well-rounded feedback, so you can fine-tune it for release, why wouldn't you give them the All Skills to play around with? Fact of the matter is, that's the precise reason all Skills were available during the Betas: because the Developers knew one weekend was a short amount of time.
In full retail, there is no weekend time limit, and surprise, surprise, we find we don't have fully-stocked skill vendors anymore.
Purely coincidence? No.
The combat didn't change because ANet wasn't going to change the combat, and for the purposes of this discussion, the combat is irrelevant anyway.
The skill vendors changed because ANet fully stocked the skill vendors for the Betas and the Betas alone, so players could get as much playing in as humanly possible and not have to unlock anything.
When you think about it, they didn't pull a fast one at all. Everything they were doing throughout the Betas all was leading up to what we saw in full retail, Laz.
1) The BWEs started with fully-stocked skill vendors.
2) But as the release date approached (those two remaining BWEs), ANet introduced the unlocking system, and did away with the fully-stocked skill vendors (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong).
3) Then as the fans spoke up and requested having all skills again, ANet complied and added the check box, because they do listen to what the fans are saying (this will lead into a later point).
4) Upon Retail, we don't see any "All Skills" options anywhere.
It's clear to me that they (ANet) were not intending to enable all skills when they first introduced the unlocking system, nor were they ever for Retail. The progression has always been weening the players off of the Beta and onto what the Retail system will be. You can keep claiming they pulled a fast one or whatever, but it's clear that they didn't. I don't know why people were surprised with it. It was inevitable all along.
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You've misread entirely, Siren.|
SoC is not a 'bit' of a timesink. Do the math - *90* elite skills, perhaps an average of between an hour to two hours to capture each skill should you know exactly where to go and the boss shows up at the right time. No you don't need all those skills, like you don't need armor and you don't need other skills you use. Yes it increases the diversity of builds you can try and thus improve fun for people who like that sort of thing. Unlocking more than 2 classes skillsets for enough to be pvp viable is a tremendous time investment - this is without SoC because of the way skills are spread all over the world. With SoC it becomes prohibitive, which is why you see pvpers calling for an alternative. Laz You missed my point entirely, Laz. Rather than not getting so bent out of shape over what is most certainly going to be an improving SoC system, you're choosing to turn the game back into an extended Beta, which seems to be the direct antithesis of what ANet's goals are right now.
Manderlock
"Im back, the fog has lifted and raised the gifted" (10 pts to whoever knows that song
 )Posted this in the other thread about SoC. After talking to Pharalon in PMs, I see the issue. There still is no obviose way to "fix" it. Some people say lots of gold to get elite skills. If its to low they are too easy to get, and if its too high that would equal grind (exactly what we are trying avoid). This is a IMO thing, but the PvPers get all of there atrabute pts in one fell swoop, while even a lvl 20 RP char is forced to do 2 extra quests to have the same amount of pts. Could they have meant it to be like that? I have no clue. I am a fan of the current SoC prosses, and anything added on would undermine that. However, I see that some PvP players dont want to force themselves to play 100+ hours doning something that dont want to. Maby they can add a reward system to the new and improved arena, and make where random arenas are the only ones that can win it the prize.( that would help alievate some of Loviatars consernes). I really dont want anything to change in the current system, as I said Im for the SoC. I takes skill and practice to be able to pull of a succesful capture. I can however see that current plight of PvP chars. That being said, I dont want to see this turned into two different games. If PvPers are given this I fear that they will begin to complain about having to PvE at all. (PvP only players still have to play some PvE if they want to be worth anything in PvP) I alos dont want them try and "fix" this issue and then go completley overboard and screwing up something else. Thats my view on this, take it how you will. P.S. To Laz, you keep saying that the PvP is the end-game. If thats true, then you MUST play the rest of the game BEFORE you can be worth anything in PvP. You are right, PvP is meant to be the END-game. TheNakedOne
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Originally Posted by Siren
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Originally Posted by Siren
Just think about it from a Dev POV. You want players to experience as much of the game content as they can, so they can give you more well-rounded feedback
So, exactly - think from a Dev POV. You want players to experience game content so that they can give you feedback. You don't change up what you had put in the beta as "normal" content (skill traders) without trying the change first with your testers. Otherwise, you get no feedback! Basic idea eh. Now normal behavior is as with the unlock all button - they said "hey try out the skills with this temporary button we're giving ya."
Lazarous
Siren - i have no idea what you're arguing, but its certainly nothing i stated.
Originally Posted by Lazarous
Quote: To put this in perspective, the 'unlock all skills' button in place for the last two bwe was clearly stated as not being something you would see in release.
Where you got that i was arguing the exact opposite i have no idea.
Your continued faith in a company that chose to push out the door a massive change to the skill acquisition system without testing or notifying anyone of it is touching. For my part i wash my hands of this. This is akin to arguing against a wall. Laz
Manderlock
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Originally Posted by Lazarous
Siren - i have no idea what you're arguing, but its certainly nothing i stated.
Where you got that i was arguing the exact opposite i have no idea. Your continued faith in a company that chose to push out the door a massive change to the skill acquisition system without testing or notifying anyone of it is touching. For my part i wash my hands of this. This is akin to arguing against a wall. Laz Yea........I bet thats exactly what they feel about you. The truth is that you fell something is wrong, we fell its right. The reason that it has become a flame war is because you (and others) have been constantly belittling each other through out this thread. Thach
This is just kind of a random thing i'm puting out here...now, i understand something similar could have come up but i frankly was getting bored of reading the same things over and over again for like the first 5 pages of this thread...so anyway:
Situation: A.net takes out elites completely... Would people be happy or mad??
Sausaletus Rex
All I have to say on the subject is "We gave up the gem system for this?"
This thread went off the rails as soon as posts became more about just why posts were flames or people's points of views were horribly misguided than about the actual issue at hand. A shame, because it's an important issue which is why I've not stepped in earlier. My mistake, I can see. However, this thread hover near being locked and my every instinct says leaving it open will only lead to more trouble. However, I'm going to give you all one last chance to prove me wrong and leave it open with a warning that what we do here is not to engage in the politics of personal destruction, we debate the facts in a passionate yet rationale manner. Stop belittling each other. Everyone's opinion is welcome here, despite what you might think. Speak for yourself and not for others, especially when you don't know those for whom you've appointed yourself to speak. Don't tell each other that "that's the way it is" or "if you don't like it you don't have to play". Guild Wars is a game not just for you but for as many people as possible. We're all better served the more people can play and enjoy our game. That means diversity, though, and a tolerance for the fact that not everyone will be trying to play the game the exact same way you will. The game is complex and varied, though, and can support a lot of different ways of playing and looking at it. Enough that some people can carve out a little niche for themselves and declare themselves a special and protected group of players who have their own needs and wants and ruination to anyone who stands in their way. That's a false segregation, though, because no matter how many ways to play there are we're all still playing the same game. There are no PvE players and PvP players, there are GW players. And while it can never be possible to make every single last one of us perfectly happy at the same time, the game is not zero sum. For those who prefer to play one way to be happy doesn't necessarily mean that others have to suffer. The issue is not how to bring complete happiness to one group at the expense of all others. The issue is how to make one group happier while keeping everyone else satisfied. In so many words, some players are unhappy. They find the way the game currently works to be annoying, dull, and repetitive - a grind. And much of the blame for that can be laid at the feet of the last minute changes to the skill system from the last BWE to the release version, specifically the SoC and that elites can only be obtained through that mechanic. To find enough skills to enjoy PvP is taking not just a short amount of time but what many feel is altogether a lengthy and unreasonable amount of time. Others are prefectly happy and content with things the way they are. The question, the answer, is not how do you change things to make PvP players go through less grind. Instead, it's how do you change things so that everyone has a better experience? How can you make skill acquisition easier and less time intensive for those who want to PvP their hearts out and require a playing field as level as possible while still making skills important and rare enough to be a valuable reward for those who enjoy the sort of exploration and discovery of scarce resources and progressive advancement that typifies what's known as an RPG - or PvE? To say that things are the way they are and those who don't like it can go and screw is not an answer and not a welcome response. To say that is to reduce GW to a narrow ghetto where it will never climb out. Guild Wars is not a typical MMO, it's not got the bredth of content or the potential for community and socialization to compete on those terms. No more than could just a GW FPS where you'd start with no levels and all the skills at your fingertips with no character advancement at all compete against games that do player versus player combat far better. It's a blend of those elements and more. We're not trying to put limits on things here, we're trying to better and improve the game so that everyone out there can try it and enjoy it. So stop the destructive bickering and start being constructive.
Sausaletus Rex
Right, this thread's done. Thanks for living up to expectations.
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