The Signet of Capture System Goes Against Fun Gameplay
Acidalia
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Originally Posted by Lazarous
Yet there is a TON of grinding compared to guild wars beta weekend events (even discounting the all skills unlocked function of the last two).
Frankly, I could not care less about lineage 2 grind; I was sold on this game because it lacked grind almost completely in the bwe - that isn't true anymore.
Laz Guess you never played any other online RPG's before.
Compare to all others, there is no grind in Guildwars.
Like someone said before, this is a RPG and not a Fantasy FPS.
Go play Counterstrike...
Frankly, I could not care less about lineage 2 grind; I was sold on this game because it lacked grind almost completely in the bwe - that isn't true anymore.
Laz Guess you never played any other online RPG's before.
Compare to all others, there is no grind in Guildwars.
Like someone said before, this is a RPG and not a Fantasy FPS.
Go play Counterstrike...
Lazarous
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Like someone said before, this is a RPG and not a Fantasy FPS.Go play Counterstrike... Wow. You replay to something 4 pages back and then use this response. Thanks for making me laugh.
Laz
Lazarous
Keure - its a valid idea, but as you point out there are a bunch of difficulties involved with creating challenges that have some relevance to pvp yet are still scripted. I can see things like healing timing challenges, Burst DPS challenges, a few other things. Making benchmarks wouldn't be *that* difficult, but would of necessity reward certain builds and playstyles over others. How do you challenge a minion necro effectively? Most corpses raised?
Its an intriguing proposition but seems a lot less likely to happen than some of the easier to implement changes (which are essentially reversion to an earlier build of skill vendor).
Laz
Its an intriguing proposition but seems a lot less likely to happen than some of the easier to implement changes (which are essentially reversion to an earlier build of skill vendor).
Laz
Jackell
7 pages, and still this.
No matter what we say, and how many points we make, Laz is going to be convinced that this is a grind, and he's going to hate it.
I say we stop before this flame fest turns into a war and brings us all down.
No matter what we say, and how many points we make, Laz is going to be convinced that this is a grind, and he's going to hate it.
I say we stop before this flame fest turns into a war and brings us all down.
Lazarous
Don't try to pit this as me against the world. I may have been the most vocal, but that doesn't mean i'm anywhere near alone on this.
As to points being made in defense of SoC, they all boil down to 'i like pve, the system works in pve, so it shouldn't be changed and/or augmented by something else."
I have yet to see a convincing argument against returning the skill trainers to their beta levels of usefulness, and thats really all the anti-soc lobby is pushing for through this entire thread.
Laz
edit: damn my timing is good, first post on the 8th page
further edit: missed this
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Lazarous, you don't want to go there. Trust me on this. Chess is not some pick-up-and-play boardgame like Checkers (and even Checkers is deceptively simple). Chess most definitely requires a time investment to become proficient at it, and to get to the fun parts. A beginner isn't going to stand a chance playing Bobby Fisher, but you're seemingly implying a newbie could put up an effective defense against Fisher.As to points being made in defense of SoC, they all boil down to 'i like pve, the system works in pve, so it shouldn't be changed and/or augmented by something else."
I have yet to see a convincing argument against returning the skill trainers to their beta levels of usefulness, and thats really all the anti-soc lobby is pushing for through this entire thread.
Laz
edit: damn my timing is good, first post on the 8th page
further edit: missed this
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I don't know how old you are, but there were Chess halls in NYC back in the 60s that my father frequented regularly, and understand that the regulars there could demolish most of the upstarts and newbies in under 15 minutes, and even less in speed Chess.
Chess requires just as much strategy and devotion as GuildWars, whether or not you believe it, and in fact, much of the approaches in speed Chess directly apply to tactics in GuildWars. Hell, GuildWars is a huge game of Chess at times. Actually i do want to go there. Notice the common thread in the games i mentioned - you have access to all your 'abilities' from the start, it becomes a matter of proper utilization. Thats the gameplay experience that pvp guild wars offers and everyone seems dead set against providing easily.
Time investment to play chess is 0. You get your board, you get your pieces and you follow the very basic rules of the game - there, you could theoretically go up against Fischer as you state and have no inherent disadvantage. No inherent disadvantage - your personal skill determines how well you do.
The parallel in guild wars is trying to go up against Fischer, being a newbie, and not having your rooks and a few pawns. Yes you could in some amazingly bizarre universe beat him but the chances are even more unlikely than normal.
Or to take another parallel - you have Kasparov and Fischer playing, but one of them is forced to be down a piece because they were sick the week before and didn't have time to get it.
Thats what this hatred of SoC and grind revolves around. The endgame pvp in gw is great, it requires well thought out, well timed and coordinated moves. It requires a great deal of metagame knowledge and good situational awareness. It should not require stupidly long amounts of time to get a full chessboard.
Laz
Siren
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Originally Posted by Lazarous
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Actually i do want to go there. Notice the common thread in the games i mentioned - you have access to all your 'abilities' from the start, it becomes a matter of proper utilization. Thats the gameplay experience that pvp guild wars offers and everyone seems dead set against providing easily. Time investment to play chess is 0. You get your board, you get your pieces and you follow the very basic rules of the game - there, you could theoretically go up against Fischer as you state and have no inherent disadvantage. No inherent disadvantage - your personal skill determines how well you do. The parallel in guild wars is trying to go up against Fischer, being a newbie, and not having your rooks and a few pawns. Yes you could in some amazingly bizarre universe beat him but the chances are even more unlikely than normal. Or to take another parallel - you have Kasparov and Fischer playing, but one of them is forced to be down a piece because they were sick the week before and didn't have time to get it. Thats what this hatred of SoC and grind revolves around. The endgame pvp in gw is great, it requires well thought out, well timed and coordinated moves. It requires a great deal of metagame knowledge and good situational awareness. It should not require stupidly long amounts of time to get a full chessboard. Laz Thanks for elaborating on why you were making the analogy. Now, I won't deny that it's tempting to draw a parallel between character abilities in GW and Chess pieces (because there certainly is a similarity in character dynamics there, I won't debate that), but as tempting as it is, there's a fundamental flaw in the analogy. Chess pieces get killed. Permanently. Once they're gone, they're gone (unless, of course, you march a Pawn down to the opposing back row, but that's largely irrelevant anyway). If you lose a Bishop, Knight, Rook, etc., there's a very good chance you're never getting it back. The game is just as much attack as it is conservation and protection, but that dynamic is based on Chess not having Monks in place of Bishops...no Rezzes. That isn't the case in GW. Unlike Chess, you have a limited skill set starting out, but also unlike Chess, your abilities (Pawns, Rooks, Knights, etc) aren't going to go bye-bye permanently should they get disabled (the GW equivalent of capturing). Once you have them, you have them, and no other player is going to be able to steal them from you (apart from Arcane Mimicry, but that's getting to a depth I simply don't have the energy to discuss at any length, lol. I'm sure you can sympathize.). Further unlike Chess is the fact that you build-up your "forces." Regarding positioning and movement, yes, GW can certainly be influenced by various Chess techniques, but regarding overall game design, using Chess to argue a point is moot, because the foundation of GW is, I think, pretty clearly centered around a Magic: The Gathering type of system. The whole "critique my build" idea is identical to "critique my deck," not "critique my Chess set." Plus, talking about Fischer dominating you (or Kasparov vs. Fischer in a similar scenario) even worse if you were missing pieces is irrelevant anyway, because Fischer would dominate no matter what. I really don't think it would make any difference if you, a newbie, were missing any pieces. The skill isn't even to begin with...so the number of pieces is pretty damn irrelevant. Lazarous
Chess is an analogy, nothing more. The key part is that the game is lessened if you don't have a full chessboard (or skillset) because you're lacking options that would otherwise be available.
Again, the argument is that soc needs to be supplemented by better skill trainers like those available in the bwe to not alienate a large chunk of the games population, not that chess rules can be used to determine high level pvp. edit: i'm not opposed to making elites quest rewards, but it seems like it would require more work(new content) than simply reinstating something that was already there. Laz
Jackell
I'm not pitting you against the world. I didn't say the whole community vs you. I said that that's what this thread is turned into. One big flame war, no side is going to budge, and flames and trolling has started to run rampant.
I said you because, like you said, your the most vocal. eventhorizen
What Lazarus is trying to say is that because he has neither the desire, nor the spare time to play certain parts of this game that the rewards gained should be made easier to get by people like him at the expense of depth and complexity and atmosphere of the rest of the game.
Eve-Online anyone? TheNakedOne
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Originally Posted by Jackell
this thread is turned into. One big flame war, no side is going to budge, and flames and trolling has started to run rampant.
I disagree with your assessment of the utility of this thread. Certainly there's a lot of flaming, no budging, and trolling, but realistically that's patently unavoidable in any forum thread. On the other hand, a few suggestions *have* popped out, some good points been made and clarified...unlike other threads u might find on the 'net.
I just finished reading through all 8 pages. It seems clear to me that those arguing intelligently on the PvP side want a good tactical game. What they don't want is having "Time Invested" be a bigger factor than Tactics/Skill when it comes to winning. There are a lot of specious arguments about how GW is an mmo, not an rts/fps, and how PvPers should go play other games. However, PvPers make a strong argument, based on A.net's statements and based on how GW works, to support that GW isn't your generic MMO. More, GW is focused significantly on competitive, highly tactical dueling (as opposed to grinding). Ignoring that, though, there still doesn't seem like there's a good reason to deny PvPers that good tactical experience, with a PvP-only All-Access mode. Certainly from a marketing point of view, it would let A.net attract purchases from a wider audience base. From there, everyone benefits as far as profits going into development for GW2. It would be easy to set the PvE-developing-to-PvP mode as a "hardcore" option for people who would rather earn their skills and then compete. There remains, in my opinion, a further argument - this time from the PvE point of view. That is, that the time spent in "the grind" acts as a classroom for players before they step into PvP. I can see how some players might catch on quickly, or have Alpha/Beta experience, and thus deny this argument. Well, personally I would come down on both sides of the fence(as someone who tends not to beta test) so I won't try to argue either side of *that* issue. Definitely, though, I can see investment in a grind at least as a partial measure that is useful in keeping "useless teammates" out of PvP and from ruining games for more intelligent, experienced players. From the sounds of it, however, the time requirements for Elite skills are excessive (where, for those who continue after 8 pages to spout stupid comparisons to other MMORPGs, I would call those other requirements ridiculous). A suggestion I would proffer is to: Force players to grind the first 5-8 Elite skills. Then, allow them to gain quickly or even outright buy the next set. Possibly, the grind could be increased once again for the last chunk of Elite skills, so that people can gain *some* advantage through time investment. Alternately, another suggestion is to: Allow players free buy, or quick gain, of 15-25 initial Elite skills (or whatever number would gain you sufficient flexibility in PvP to have fun and be competitive - I'll leave specifics to people with more experience than I have). From there, you have to grind to access all the rest.
Siren
My point is that chess is a weak analogy, because they're two entirely different concepts and because of this, their individual approaches and set-ups are radically different, so they have no relevance at all to begin with. The fact that you begin with an entire chess set is simply because there are no RPG elements in chess...it's a boardgame. You start with either relatively blank characters or somewhat pre-made characters in GuildWars because GuildWars isn't chess; it's a video-game.
I suppose philosophically, you could make that argument, draw the correlation between chess and GuildWars, but even then, it's a weak philosophical argument as well. Regarding solutions to the SoC...from a gameplay perspective, I'd be more inclined to go with the Quest-based rather than Elite vendors, because you start selling Elite skills at vendors, they'll have to be sold at a higher price, so people are going to start grinding straight out of the Searing--and the incessant grind is something ANet is doing their damndest to completely avoid. We know that some type of grind is to be expected in MMORPGs, but the Quest-based, I feel, is what most closely reflects ANet's goals. And really, the Quest system wouldn't be too much of a content addition. The bosses already spawn. I don't see too much trouble in placing special quest givers. The SoC system is already in place, so...the content is already there for the most part. All that's left is to link it together. eventhorizen
The thing is though you cannot let PvP only mode players gain access to things instantly that PvE mode players would have to 'grind' for, because that would mean PvE initial characters might go into a fight with a disadvantage. Perhaps they couldnt find enough Elite skills or whatever.
From what I undertsood of the game, the PvP only mode was meant to be for people who wanted to PvP right away, not to prevent them having to PvE at all. No matter how you gain skill, elite skills, equipment etc. it cannot be exclusive to one type of character, simply because both types will compete against each other. Any individual player must have to go through the same process as any ohter player to access the same things, otherwise THEN it is unbalanced. Look I know you will all say that this is smalk, or flaming blah blah, but individuals loathing to play through a part of a game, for whatever reason, cannot mean that that player can access anything any easier than any other player. You are all asuming that every player who is going to PvP has no interest in PvE, or that PvP build players are going to be in the best guilds, sitting ontop of the ladders etc. That means nothing. As I keep iterating, a small section of the player base will want nothing but PvP, a small section will want nothing but PvE, and the majority will have bought this game for both aspects. If, regardless of what you prefer to do in GW, the methods of attaining 'things' are not the same for everyone, how can you call this balanced? I would like to use tanks in Rome Total War online, but I dont get them Some aspects of every game undoubtably annoys people. The problem here is that I neither think this issue is unbalanced, but I believe it could unbalance the game, nor do I believe it goes against any description I have read of this game. I believe a.net told us that the vast majority of grind would be eliminated, but how can a developer say it will eleiminate ALL grind? When grind can so easilly be a matter of opinion... Would be bad PR managment tbh. Thats not to say there isnt an issue, certain people do feel strongly about this in particular, but is that enough to go changing and possibly unbalancing the game? You say that to be able to compete you need to PvE, well thats not true. Your basic PvP build gets 30 more attribute points than a lvl 20 PvE character, so in order to compete a lvl 20 PvE has to do 2 more quests So saying that PvP builds cannot compete/is unbalanced is incorrect. 30 attribute points used cleverly can be as huge an advantage as any skill, elite or not. Please, I dont want to make myself look bad by flaming, but I see people complain of unbalancing, unfairness, misleading, etc. etc. and my personal opinion is that none of those things are correct. I myself get insulted, by people who claim things I know are either wrong, or lies. There is an issue here, it is an issue about how much effort you have to put into the game to attain enough to compete at a high level. That is the issue here, nothing else. For myself thats no issue at all, I will put in as much time as I need, and if I cant hack it then thats unlucky. Its just my opinion that this isnt a problem with the game, but rather some people patients. TheNakedOne
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Originally Posted by eventhorizen
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It is pointless.
So what is your stance then? Do you, as a PvE player, *need* your time investment to pull you ahead in power? Or, do you, as you stated in your latest post and as the PvP players are arguing, feel that a gap in character effectiveness based purely on access to skills is a negative aspect of the current design? If the former, I can feel nothing but contempt for you.
Your response may be that the difference is that PvE players will have *earned* their greater power. In reply, I say that this is a false sense of accomplishment. What is involved in "earning" the Elite Skills is nothing at all to do with challenge and skill, and everything to do with time wasting.
Quote: Originally Posted by eventhorizen You are all asuming that every player who is going to PvP has no interest in PvE Certainly there will be players who are drawn to both aspects of the game - I would be one of them. On the other hand, not every player who is going to PvP, yet is interested in PvE, will feel his ego threatened after losing to someone purely because of access to a greater skills set. Heck, as it is now this is already going to happen, and be the case, because I'm not going to spend more than an hour every other day of the week grinding away.
Meanwhile, those who are purely interested in the highly involving PvP tactics GW can provide will have a severely worse experience, under the current system. That they can have all the skills "for free" hurts me not at all. I'll have my fun developing my character PvE, and bring him over to PvP as I feel like it. I'll have a good challenge trying to beat any player with access to more skills than me - whether through Instant-Access or through more time devoted. I'll have fun crushing those who think they can take "the best" skills through Instant-Access and feel "leet," because I'll have superior wits, tactics, and experience.
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Well what would be the point in that? The pre made PvP builds were to give people an early taster of lvl 20 combat, not shortcut them to a fully developed character. Its not about PvE players fighting PvP players, or one side having an advantage over the other. BECAUSE THEIR ARE NO SIDES. You want to compete then you must play the game. Sorry to have to shatter your delusions |
Originally Posted by eventhorizen
Its just my opinion that this isnt a problem with the game, but rather some people patients.
If a game's design were to be of such quality, that it could draw people to play it again and again, from an rpg standpoint, then people wouldn't have an issue at all with "the grind." But as it is, in "all" mmorpgs out there...the grind is senseless. That's why GW sold, and won so much acclaim from the testers - because it successfully eliminated a lot of that grind.
It's not like the PvP crowd haven't put in their time with the PvE portion of the game. It's not like they're asking to have everything up front without any effort at all (as many arguers would like to claim). Rather, they have put in their time, and they don't want to waste time, slogging through missions they've already done, in order to be able to enjoy another aspect of GW that is far from a waste of time. I've no doubt they would be happy to "grind" more to get the Elite Skills - IF that grinding took place with new missions, bosses, new gameplay. But as it stands, it's just a waste of a time sink. TheNakedOne
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Originally Posted by Lazarous
The key part is that the game is lessened if you don't have a full chessboard (or skillset) because you're lacking options that would otherwise be available.
I disagree - I'll often limit my own chessboard (or skillset), and the game would be far from lessened. Rather it would be heightened by the greater challenge I might then find.
But unlike Siren, I find the analogy a great analogy at least for your point, just draw different conclusions than the ones he has. While I might limit my own chessboard against a lesser player, it would be ridiculous for me to do so against Kasparov. He's already far beyond my chess ability, no point in giving him any more advantage. At least give me a matched chessboard, and I"ll see what I can learn, what challenge I can put up. If it's still too easy for him, he can limit his chessboard at his own choice. But it's purely ridiculous to limit my chessboard to start with. eventhorizen
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Originally Posted by TheNakedOne
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but the game is designed so that you have to play it in order to be good at it. Sure you dont have to reach level 100, or scoure every inch of the land, but you still need to put in some time and effort to learn how to play, to develop your character, to do stuff in this game.
You dont want to take the time and develop your character sufficiently? That is your choice and not mine.
You and people like you seem to have some misguided sense of PvP players fighting it out in compititions and PvE players poncing around in fairy land. Wrong mate, those are both aspects of a game called Guild Wars, if you dont like how it has to be played, you are free to leave any time you choose.
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It is pointless.. First of all this 'grind' is actually a very beautiful role playing game. Since FFV these along with RTS have been the games I have looked for the most. Through VI-X, Some obscure Japanese titles like Star Ocean etc. to Morrowind and several MMORPGs I have experianced creativity, imagination, compelling stories of fictional characters, lavish and inspirational worlds, complex and involving gameplay, and have spent more waking non job related hours in fictional lives than I have probably spent on my own life, I admit this.
You do not like these kinds of games? You can take a long walk off a short cliff for all I care, classing an entire genre of gaming 'grind' because you do not like it is lame, shortsighted, and very very insulting.
The PvP 'crowd' as you put it, obviously are people with no interest in what the core of this game is : a Fantasy world of character creation, development, and competition. You see only competition in this game, and the rest is irrelevant or even annoying. This is the view of a vast MINORITY, try to understand that, and to the people who are this games true fans, you would be better off leaving soon.
Noone is disadvantaged in this game by this game. You own desires, likes and dislikes, plus the inconveniance of your own lives is what will disadvantage you in the World that is Guild Wars. Nothing else. You dont have the time, nor the desire to develop a character in this land for competition. Thats your fault and not the games.
Pointless...? Im sure every single thing that exists is ultimatly pointless my uninspired friend, at best it will be for the amusement of some deity, at worst a random accident. Try to enjoy creativity and imagination while your short life lasts. There will be no dreams in death.
Quote: Originally Posted by TheNakedOne So what is your stance then? Do you, as a PvE player, *need* your time investment to pull you ahead in power? Or, do you, as you stated in your latest post and as the PvP players are arguing, feel that a gap in character effectiveness based purely on access to skills is a negative aspect of the current design? If the former, I can feel nothing but contempt for you. . My time investment in Guild Wars is due entirally to my enjoyment of the game. Was I under the impression that particular skills or equipment would give me an unbeatable edge in competition I would probably have finished the ascension of my main lvl 19 character and gone on to look for these awsome objects, instead I wanted to experiance other aspects of the game so created a radically different character, that is more enjoyable, and that i will ascend with, hopefully attaining elite skills and awsome equipment at some point.
I am going to play this game as well as I can for as long as it holds my enjoyment. I will do what I must in order to make each of my characters as powerful and developed as I find possible, then I am going to compete and compete, and roleplay and explore to my hearts content, until I grow bored, or something else.
If my grinding turns your stomach, and I beat you, then know you will have beaten by a player of Guild Wars in its fullest, and not a PvP frenzied child.
Know that I play this game like any other game, to experiance what it has to offer, and if it is competitive to be the best. If I cannot that will not stop me trying, if I have to run 1000's of kilometres ingame to get a weapon/skill whatever that I want then that choice is mine, and being the player I am I will do it with no qualms.
Unfortunatly for you I am not a 'veteran' of Counter Strike or any of those other isntant gratification titles. Rather I have played games like final fantasy, Morrowind, and most fittingly, Eve-Online. Thus I know that 1000's of hours devoted to a game can yields far more rewards, regardless of the game, as long as I am any good. Eve-online is a beautiful example, you ever played it? Takes about a month before you can have a hope to pvp and not lose horrifically, i have playing that game for two years and have experianced multiple wars, on the scale of a few opposed friendly groups to 10,000+ player wars... Know that I show dedictation and determination in all games, and if you do not, I will have the advantage in sheer spirit alone.
Quote: Originally Posted by TheNakedOne Your response may be that the difference is that PvE players will have *earned* their greater power. In reply, I say that this is a false sense of accomplishment. What is involved in "earning" the Elite Skills is nothing at all to do with challenge and skill, and everything to do with time wasting.. Again your comments insult me and the games I play, please engage your brain at some point in a post.
Quote: Originally Posted by TheNakedOne
Meanwhile, those who are purely interested in the highly involving PvP tactics GW can provide will have a severely worse experience, under the current system. That they can have all the skills "for free" hurts me not at all. I'll have my fun developing my character PvE, and bring him over to PvP as I feel like it. I'll have a good challenge trying to beat any player with access to more skills than me - whether through Instant-Access or through more time devoted. I'll have fun crushing those who think they can take "the best" skills through Instant-Access and feel "leet," because I'll have superior wits, tactics, and experience.Certainly there will be players who are drawn to both aspects of the game - I would be one of them. On the other hand, not every player who is going to PvP, yet is interested in PvE, will feel his ego threatened after losing to someone purely because of access to a greater skills set. Heck, as it is now this is already going to happen, and be the case, because I'm not going to spend more than an hour every other day of the week grinding away..
Well if you are going to play the role play aspect of this game at all then you are going to get skills as a reward. Perhaps you should take the time to learn about the entire game, before you post on any aspect of it?
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You're calling us crybabies because
1) you either don't care about pvp or
2) don't mind the massive time sinks required to get on an even playing field for it.
I'm calling you crybabies because the majority of your "criticisms" is what I expect to hear from children or forum trolls.Quote:
When you look at the big picture, and examine everything going on, yes, it is the case.|
Originally Posted by TheNakedOne
Meanwhile, those who are purely interested in the highly involving PvP tactics GW can provide will have a severely worse experience, under the current system. That they can have all the skills "for free" hurts me not at all. I'll have my fun developing my character PvE, and bring him over to PvP as I feel like it. I'll have a good challenge trying to beat any player with access to more skills than me - whether through Instant-Access or through more time devoted. I'll have fun crushing those who think they can take "the best" skills through Instant-Access and feel "leet," because I'll have superior wits, tactics, and experience. .
Wrong, you should try leveling up in the arena's. Full of n00bs agreed, but fighting n00bs when you are seriously underpowered can be a lesson, even if its a lesson in how to wipe out multiple opponent class types with a single build. Superior Wits means little if you have no exeriance of how Guild Wars plays. It will mean you will pick up the gameplay fast, perhaps, but having no intimate knowledge of the skills and classes and tactics of the game will mean you lose repeatedly. Learning to play Guild Wars will not happen instantly, you will need to invest time into just undertsanding the nuances of each build and skill. Which is another good point about the rate of skill release in PvE, you have the time and the AI opponents on which to test out every single new skill to its fullest potential at your own pace. Quote:
Thats not the case.
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So in other words, your'e not speaking from a standpoint of informed knowledge or experience, but stating an opinion, as originally posted. Thanks for clearing that up for us.
And as for the elites themselves, if they were not better than ordinary skills, as you wrote, they would indeed fill the skillbars of many, and elite nuking matches would occur. So they limited them to one per bar. Why? Because they are better than ordinary skills, as also orginally posted. Quote:
If I need some type of actual ANet response to support what I'm saying, then just look to the "Unlock All Skills for Beta Weekend" feature they incorporated and tell me all skills were never intended exclusively for Beta weekend. It just takes some common sense and reading between the lines, Laz, something you and others have quite simply failed to do. I don't know what else to tell you other than you disappointed yourself, lol. Quote: |
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1) you either don't care about pvp or
2) don't mind the massive time sinks required to get on an even playing field for it.
And your assessment of me would have merit if throughout the entire thread, I hadn't been adamantly supporting changes to the SoC system (and not merely adding in new, unrelated vendor options) that would suit everyone. Fact remains that I probably have been the only "Pro-PvEr" who is eager to work with the PvPers to construct a system that works for everyone, so, again, your criticisms are unfounded, because you're basing a point on two flawed observations.
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Those that are complaining do so, as i have said numerous times, because this game was marketed as pvp-friendly, low to no grind. They changed that so their marketing is false. They can either listen to the complaints and offer some olive branch to those like me, or they can ignore us and lose our future business.
Hold on, what you're saying here is entirely different than bitching about a skill system from Beta, so let's make that perfectly clear. How the game was being marketed (PvP friendly) and a skill system in Beta that was instituted clearly to provide a fuller testing environment are entirely unrelated. Quote:
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has anybody noticed that more than 90 per cent of the game is for PVE with nice little areas here and there for pvp? 