Bad Business at Arena Net

Kurt didn't get the memo that guildwars is a competitive online game, not a pve grindfest.

ps: if you want pve grindage I highly recommend silkroad or WoW.

#1) I'm not a man. But i am pretty weird and crazy, so i'll give you that.

#2) The only thing im looking at is dreamhunk. His posts make very little sense and he gives me a headache. He tends to ramble on about being an expert in something, and acts like his opinions are law.

#3) I have about $6800 (my car fund). I will bet you that you have no idea what the GORED you are talking about.

Don't act like you know anything about PvP, if you don't PvP.

You can have an opinion. But you have no knowledge in the matter.

I may not have rank. I may not be in a rated guild. But I PvP for fun and I enjoy it. I get rolled in HA, but i laugh. I enjoy the competition, I enjoy watching observer mode and I understand what Arena net's ideas on how their game is supposed to be.

Arena Net's Guild Wars PvP system is very good. VERY GOOD. It is my opinion, that it is the BEST PvP system of any MMORPG or MMCORPG out there. It promotes (or at least triest to in its best way) to have a level playing field that requires player skill, knowledge of terrain, movement, tactics, communication and teamwork as its driving force. Not super weapons/equipment/armor/skills.


#4) My height (im small) and the fact that I'm asian (a minority) has nothing to do with my opinion's merit.

#5) If i was the owner of Anet, i'd probably be more stressed than i am right now, so no thanks.

[QUOTE]QUOTE]

there are 2 (at least) of them right here on this site and here is 1 of them i remembered.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/member.php?u=21

I have to agree with the original poster on some points. When you contrast Proph and factions, factions falls far short. Im not going to try to say that iether sucks. no. im proud that my character was created on day one of gw's release in america.
what i will say is that if you compare factions and prophecies, prophesies was far richer in content, imagination and creativity.
what did prophecies offer?
1 presearing- dont laugh, most of you were shocked when after googling over the gorgeous graphics of the presearing ascaloncatacombs and other parts, BOOM! the REAL game kicked in. That was a stroke of brilliance.
2. the missions themselves were all different from each other, you had to repair siege weapons, light beacons, play flag football(well not really but the mission seemed like it.). free hostages and refugees, there was a ton of diveristy in the missions, and all this before ascending! i mean the ascention procees was a badge of honor, those missions were very challenging and being ascended meant something for you cant into the UW and FOW without it.
3 the uw and fow and the furnace, again strokes of brilliance. hard challenging and very rewarding areas that demand good team play or precice solo build play.

the following will be my only outwardly negative comment:
In factions every single prohecies class has skills that are the exact duplicate of proph skills except they are renamed. exact duplicate. that is sad.
moving on : for factions, the missions are :
kill mobs kill boss your done.
there are no new uw type missionsand areas. if you think about it, faction players get access to prophecy content free. they can ascend and go to uw and fow, but prophecies plays cant access any factions areas without buying factions.

on that same line, the folks who bought prophecies (and put GW on the map) have been begging for more storage , but this was grated to factions only players.
back to content. no one can honestly argue that factions is a continuation of the pve gameplay proph contains. this wuld be totaly understandable if factions didnt cost as much as proph. dollar for dollar you get far less from factions than you do prophecies.
I personally would like to see anet continue where they left off with prophecies . keep being inovative.
you guys have been kind enough to read this far so im not going to go into all the stuff i would like added to the game, most of it can be found in these forums anyway.

I suppose those duplicates are that way because those skills aren't ment to be Core skills, so instead we get these silly duplicates. If we start getting 3rd copies of these skills in Nightfall, I'll join up with the "wtf ANet"-choir, but for now.

UW and FoW are Core content, Nightfall will have them as well, so it's not something to cry about. But true, they should have added more of these areas, Melandru, Dwayna, Lyssa etc are still unused. And hopefully those will be Core as well.

The line for PvE vs PvP was not bad in ch.1(ok some things sucks) but you could play the storyline without having to have anything to do with PvP if thats your choise. In ch.2 A-Net are trying to force you into doing some kind of PvP or Grind for enough Faction to be able to finish the game. Some of the players are adults and are able to make there own choises, and as such do not take kindly to being told to do something they have appsolutly no interest in. This is supposed to be an entertainment, not another job.
PvE and Pvp can coexist very well, but don't force one or the other on ppl.
Same thing with the previews, A-Net is only reinforcing ppl's beliefs in that they prefer PvP over PvE. Yes there is a big PvP tournament coming up and it will be good publicity to have a PvP preview right before that.
Still gives me as PvE player the feeling that PvP is what A-net really cares about. And the factions preview event was really cool, was a bit of a let down when we later was introduced to the "slum" and the Fed-Ex, I hope they learnd the lesson from that one.




Asians are not a minority, well perhaps weight wise compared to the americans

I do agree. And I agree that when we participate in a beta event, we are testing in some sense, but we're not beta testers according to the generally accepted industry definition.

When someone criticized the beta testers (unjustly), they were referring to people who have entered into an agreement with Anet to try out the full, pre-release product and provide feedback. They weren't referring to Joe Blow who'll participate in a beta event. That's what me and Kaguya have been trying to get across to you.

Ditto. Especially if it meant content updates (not new boxes, but new downloadable quests in existing areas). I posted in another thread that I don't see what WoW players are getting for their money over GW, and I meant it. I have been critical of the PvE portion of Factions, but I still got my money's worth, and I'm really hoping Nightfall delivers on the PvE front because I'd like to stick with the franchise.

That was Mike O'Brien in the Febuary CGW interview for Factions, which was yes, almost done and entering beta. Which means, since they know this and have ackowledged it, I have high hopes that Nightfall will have far more PvE in it then Factions did.

CGW Feb 2006 #259 here's a quote:

"The original intent of Guild Wars was that people who built up role-playing characters and played through all the content would eventually want to start using those characters in PVP. We've [now] seen that many players want to continue to focus exclusively on role-playing content." - OBrien

Then same mag on page 64 this is stated:

"But will non-PVP players embrace these faction mechanics? Flannum thinks so: 'We believe that the vast majority of players will want to participate in the faction warfare.'" - refering to the Jade and Aspenwood missions as well as ABs.

We all know the Jade and Aspenwoon are nearly always empty, so Anet knows they missed the mark on those. The ABs are becoming more void as well as PvPers seem to be returning to more GvG.

So again, I have high hopes for the PvE content in Nightfall. And as others have already said, it'll be my last purchase of GW if it is anything like Factions. I will, however also not buy it till after I have read reviews here and from other places no matter what kind of toys are offered with the pre-order.

Comparing WoW and GW is an interesting task. The one thing I found about WoW that made it superior to Guild Wars was that WoW was a cohesive, immersive world. I've been around since Warcraft I, so I've grown up with the Warcraft lore, backstory, and enviornment. I still have the old game manuals, which have these neat drawn-out maps of the World and stories told by characters you would play in later games. Blizzard had an established world to drop you in; Arena Net did not. I think where ANet falters is in this very aspect- they failed to create an immersive world. I'd spend a fair deal of time in Warcraft just wandering into towns (Tarren Mill) I remember razing and rebuilding in earlier Warcraft games.

ANet didn't have this luxury. They had to create lore from the bottom up.

They failed.

The voice acting is terrible. The plot isn't coherent. Oftentimes, the plot is so obscure and patchy that it becomes difficult to follow or simply ridiculous. Just check out the lore forum on this site- there are threads upon threads filled with questions about the game's lore, but nobody seems to be able to come up with answers. These lore-peeps have "theories" and "ideas," but in reality, the questions were never answered in-game.

Another issue regarding the immersive nature of Guild Wars's PvE is that the world simply doesn't feel "free." In most areas throughout Guild Wars, you're pretty limited in where you can go. You could wander around a fair deal in Factions, that is true, but you couldn't jump over bridges and land in the water beneath. You couldn't climb the mountains of the Shiverpeaks except where there were clearly defined paths. ANet is in complete control of where you go, and who you fight.

Not so in WoW. World of Warcraft had you able to jump off a bridge 70 feet in the air and land in the water bellow it, allowing you to get to that town up ahead so much quicker. Guild Wars lacks this immersive nature; the world is no cohesive and explorable. Guild Wars has a world which is linear, and as a result, it has a world which is boring.

Full instancing is the culprit. In World of Warcraft, the gamespace feels dynamic, because you can see another player run out of a town to go on a quest, and run into that person again while you're out farming monsters in the same relative area. You didn't have to chat or communicate, but you both existed in the gamespace. Guild Wars has everyone in town disappearing once you walk through a swirly blue portal. That's a problem, because it destroys the practicallity of the game.

The actual, physical gameplay of Guild Wars is superior in EVERY respect to World of Warcraft's. WoW's gameplay consisted of a mediocre number of skills, all of which you could take into combat, but only three of which you really used. There is no creativity in WoW's gameplay; a character class is a character class, you choose your Talents, and you assume the role you chose. If someone else has the same character class, they probably play the game the exact same way you do.

Not so with Guild Wars. Guild Wars allows you to multiclass, and that allows a MASSIVE amount of diversity in builds. I've often wondered what the game would be like if we were allocated more attribute points and given the capability to select three classes. There would truly be a massive amount of creativity and diversity in what you could do. But as it stands, Guild Wars allows you complete control of how you want to deal damage, and allows you to assemble some neat combos. Some combos are standardized (Blood Spike or Hammer Warriors) but others are more arcane (and some are just stupid).

But for all of the diversity in builds, there is little to no diversity in character customization. You can pick your face and your name, but you all wear the same clothes, all carry similar weapons, and everyone in your class has the same chest size.

Except the Ritualist. Some Ritualist armors give her bigger jugs.

Economy also contributes to the fluidity of an MMO. World of Warcraft has professions, which allow people to create wares that they can sell for money. Guild Wars has no such non-combat capabilities. If you want money, you'll fight for drops. It's an okay way to go, but it's narrow-minded, beacuse you don't allow the community to do anything other than fight. A lot of times, that's all people want to do, but other times, the extra non-combat stuff to do is fun. How many hours have you spent just sitting around in the Guild Hall? And to all the Ale Hounds out there, how much time do you spend doing non-combat stuff? MMO's don't have to be all about combat.

And I want Guild Wars to have blood.

Add blood.

So I can Reign in Blood.

Why do PvP Players get SO Defensive,

Because there is ALOT more Critical threads floating around now than there has ever been...

If this many people are upset with the way a game is being run can you not see at all how there MAY just MAY be something wrong with how a large percentage of the PvE’ers Feel about it.

I am not a Player who plays PvP and would not presume to argue with anyone who does regarding controversial issues that Anet may have changed.

But the FACT of the matter is Guild Wars will not survive long without PvE OR PvP so even if you hate the noobs hate the Wammos Hate everything about PvE there will NOT be much of a game left without it.

So with that said please respect the opinion of people who have been solely playing PvE since the game begun. As I would players who have been playing PvP.

Everyone who posts here (well MOST) want to play Guild Wars so badly they come on here and argue their point because it means something to them.

And that is exactly why you should read it and see it destroying part of the game, YES it may NOT be your part of the game but it matters, as a whole so don’t just Blast PvE it achieves NOTHING!

On OP'scaculation, you forgot the cost to buy WoW's game. (I think it was like $50 when it first came out, now droping to about $29) Many major MMO require you to buy the Box before you can play.

GW is a CoRPG, so think of it as mix between Single Player RPG and a MMO.

I've heard a number of people talk about how this game is geared towards PvP'ers. That may be true, but, this game could not in any form survive on its own as a PvP only game. Whomever made that statement is kidding themselves. All you have to do is go to Heroes Ascent, Random Arenas, and Team Arenas and count how many districts there are. There are fewer districts there combined than there are at Kaneng. Additionally the PVE cities have a greater frequency of people coming and going where the PvP districts don't have this same affect. The players of this game are PVE centric.

Indeed... Indeed *nods*

Well, I'm basically PvE, play a little GvG, lot of Fort Aspenwood, which isn't really PvP.

I have enjoyed the PvE in Factions, though the graphics are not really up to the Prophecies standard, at least not on my card.

I think ANet is aware of the necessity of keeping sales up. If Nightfall turns out to be anemic on the PvE side, the sales will probably slide. End of story.

It would seem that Anet would act reasonably in this situation. On the other hand it would seem that Blizzard, acting reasonably, would have at some point produced StarCraft 2. But Blizz did not. ANet may not act reasonably either. Time will tell.

I wonder if KurtTheBehemoth even reads the interviews with the people at ANet. In one interview, ANet or NCsoft not sure which. Said that they use custom made server technology that allows them to run for less expense than most online RPGs. And on that matterm, Behemoth. Guild Wars is Cooperative RPG not an MMO.

Well, I'll confess that recently I gave WoW a whirl. With so many people here saying, "If you don't like the Factions PvE, go play WoW," I figured I might as well check and see if the grass really is greener on the other side. A friend gave me a 10-day guest pass. So...

I haven't. I tried Warcraft I and couldn't get into it. So when I logged into WoW, I knew nothing about the world except that there were two opposing sides. As a complete newbie, I didn't feel a connection to the world at all, and nothing to make me want to care.

I disagree. I really got into the Prophecies storyline. I'd love to have the opportunity to rebuild Ascalon, for example. When the searing happened, I was shocked and felt a sense of loss, because pre-searing was so much fun and beautiful. As for lore holes. Holes, schmoles. Like a good movie I've enjoyed, I try not to think about it too much.

Somewhat agree. In PvE, I'd like to see more rewards for simply exploring, beyond chests. A couple of my characters are working on their cartographer titles, and are exploring areas I've never seen. Sometimes I'll come across a beautiful sight, but all I can do is take a screenshot. Or there will be NPCs, but they don't do anything. The environment can be just a little too static. There's no reward for exploring--no quests off the beaten path, no unique items if you climb to the top of the mountain, nothing.

Okay, I really, really disagree with this. One thing my brief affair with WoW made me appreciate so much about GW is the instancing. Two examples of why I like instancing spring to mind. I was given a quest in WoW to kill foozle and bring back foozle's head. Fine. I fight my way to foozle. Foozle is already dead, because another player had arrived just before I did. From watching other players, I see that if you wait around, foozle will eventually respawn. So I start to do that. While waiting, a monster engages me. I can't ignore it or I'll die, so I start to fight. While doing this, another player arrives, foozle respawns, and the other player kills him and gets what I need. So I have to wait again. That's nuts. Example 2: I'm given a quest to kill 10 whatsits. I head out to do so. Some twit starts following me around. Every time I start to engage a monster, he joins in. After he'd done this three or four times, I logged off. I like that in GW, you only have to put up with inane chatter, etc., while you're in a town (moronic PUGs aside). I don't need to be in an area where everyone is running around trying to kill the monsters I want to kill. In GW, I'll often recognize people in towns I've recently pugged with, etc. Instancing doesn't kill that aspect.

Yes. And then there's the issue of cookie-cutter builds...

I know some people like stuff like this, but I already have a job.

Anyway, just my 0.02. WoW has millions of subscribers so obviously it's got appeal, but GW did a lot of things right, too, and some things better.

(and for those interested, I decided not to buy a retail WoW key...)

How many people dont hang out in towns and are out question/missions?

How many people are in the middle of a battle (RA/TA/HA/AB)?

How many guilds do you see GvGing (outsides the top ranked ones on observer mode) ?

How many guilds do you see doing scrimmage?

How many people are afk in their guild hall?

District counting is not a good way to sample the number of a type of player in the game.

Well, it's proportional. For instance, the ratio of people in town vs. people who are out questing will probably remain fairly constant. So, if you see 10 districts at a certain outpost 6 months ago, and now it's down to 2, it's still a pretty good indicator that fewer people visit that outpost now than 6 months ago.

yea know i was the very guy who gave the idea that there should be schools for players to learn the game.

anet at the time did even think of it.

but then they came up with pre-searing.

they used my idea and improve on it. In fact I remeber people debating on my topic LOL the beta days were fun!!

I love comments like this, let me interpret =

"Please just go away, I cannot take any negativity".



Now back on earth, we are saying plz just make pve a little better next time.

p.s. don't take seriously.....

If the PvP player base is that big why are A-net and a lot of ppl trying so hard to steer more ppl in to PvP?
If PvP is so big why is the Pvp oriented areas in Pve so empty, they should attract some of all those PvP players.
I think that the Pvp base is a hardcore group of ppl that stays pretty much the same while the PvE part is more fluid, so the PvE base is actually bigger but not as active as the Pvp base.

You don't honestly believe that there are more PvP'ers than there are PvE'ers do you? If that were the case, there would be a lot more people with rank and gladiator titles rolling around. I'd venture a guess that there are more FOW/UW farmers alone than there are PvP'ers...

Well no shit? Of course they don't just hand you a silver platter with all the answers on it; how much fun would that be?

I, for one, am in this case rather glad that GW isn't an MMO. I play it specifically for that reason.

1. It's pretty damn arrogant to say it's a bad business structure just because YOU didnt like a certain aspect of the game. Plenty of people love it.

2. Just because one thing isnt as popular as another thing (GW vs. Wow) does NOT mean that the less popular entity is not successful.

3. The Duplicate skills are NOT there because ANET lacked creativity or whatever crap you people are spouting. They are there so people can have non echoed duplicate skills. It adds some diversity even thought they're clones. If you dont like the duplicate skills then dont freaking use them.

I wonder where in my post did i say that "Theres more PvPers than PvErs"...

Hmn...nope...no where. Nope. Didn't say it.

All im disputing is that district counting is not accurate for counting the number of players mainly for the number of factors i pointed out.

Let's also not forget that a good number of PVPers use PVE chars and they could be contributing to that "number of pve zones", when in fact they are PvPers.

nah, OP is nearly 100% correct. Anet only pays attention to PvP and will people will eventually notice the blandness of no new good PvE content

I think they are working on some good PvE for Nightfall....mainly due to the story build up. They didn't bother with that for Factions, but are (I assume this is what the Chaos creatures are all about) for Nightfall.

The only thing I'd say Anet needs to change in future chapters is PvP....it sucks for new people. Might just be my bad luck but the majority of people in Hero's Ascent are...well......of the "Not rank3 yet lol nub go home" mentality (except of course, spell most it wrong, and add more numbers replacing letters to further deteriate the English language).

I get headaches too when I read this stuff...

on topic: PVE got a new game. If you wanna complain that its not enough, fine, but dont make it into a pve vs pvp issue. If all you play is pve, you have no perspective on what factions added as far as pve vs pvp.
WTB: Guild Wars: Nightfall, hold the pvesauce please.

This is where you are wrong, as stated in earlyer posts the PvP base would not be big enough to financially make GW vieable as a PvP only game.
As far as the servers, they are NC-Softs servers and are there allready. And corporate sponsors to run a game with the employee costs, you must be joking. Sponsorships might be able to cover event costs like the PvP tournament comming up but no way will they be able to get sponsors to cover the development costs of any further expansions, since PvP only don't need any new stand alone chapters.

if guildwars was pvp only no one was playing it.

You can ask all players who have more then 3000hours ingame what they play most. 3000hours pvping gets bored, always the same story finding guilds joining partys waiting 1hour before you enter some descent battle. Cant think of that should be getting bored pretty quick.

Thats why a game like this needs a pve factor where you can waste your extra time in when your to bored to start your next match.

And people who play alot buy next episodes so you dont want to make them stop right after they bought it. pve and pvp belong to eachother.

You and your fellow PvE detractors have it all backwards. There's always plenty of posts like this on any PvE thread, even when the topic isn't PvE vs PvP. Clever (and very similar, are you guys in a society, do you have a secret handshake?) catchphrases, no content. The truth of the matter is, the OP isn't looking for 'pve grindage'. That's what we already got with Factions. He (and I) want something better. We want better PvE, we want the game to take steps forward, not backward. And you better swallow your condescending attitudes and hope we get it, or this game will peter out and die. You don't want people to go to 'silkroad or WoW'. You want them to stick around and BUY this game, so you can play your precious PvP game and be smarmy about it on internet forums.

Oh yeah? Then why did the OP state in the very first post that GW should have content like WoW? And that WoW has better content? If he isnt asking for PVE grind then why does he keep referring to WoW as the model PVE game? Dont tell me that WoW isnt grind.

I agree with this post a lot. It seems the PvE content is pretty lackluster and either too easy or short for a price tag of $50. I'm also dissappointed by the addition of grind to the game despite A-Net originally touting this game as grind-free. I've farmed over 600,000 Luxon faction for my alliance and my only tangible award aside from the massive waste of my time is a title that says I play too much. At least they added a small reward for completing the game that didn't involve farming instanced creatures. The game is still too easy in PvE and there are no real areas that are really neccessary other than to delay the progress of people through the campaign (which didn't work, I henched the entire campaign in a couple of hours) God forbid they actually add any sort of high-end raid content like EQ, WoW, and practically every successful MMORPG has.

I'm also annoyed that they're charging us full cost for a much smaller "brand new and independent" campaign while not adding any of the features that WoW came with as soon as it shipped. Auction houses, trade areas, GROUPING TOOLS, and other things...

I wonder if I'm the only one who feels that most of the simpler requests by the community are being ignored because their development team is constantly busy churning out more lackluster "Chapters"?

You're missing the point by a few miles. Sure, WoW is 'grind', but it's not the content, it's the playing style. The levelling to 60 (or what is it now?), the preposterous amounts of time looking for better stuff. That's grind. Not the content.

If ever a game does turn up that has a playing style similar to GW's, with content equal to WoW's, I'd be over there the minute it hit the stores. I'd pay $25/month for it too.

Edit: Unless that new game looks and feels like WoW. Can't stand the saturday morning cartoon style.

I've been playing Guildwars over a year now and all i play is PVE basicly, i do some pvp here and their. I love the PVE and it dosn't get boreding to me. Yes i've beaten Guildwars proph and factions with 2 characters. But it keeps me going. I use to play Diablo 2 all the time, but then i got Guildwars and i was addicted total to it, i blew Diablo 2 away. Guildwars is so fun, their is so much stuff i could lose my mind just trying to find everything and killing everything. As for Nightfall, i beleive that it will most likey have about the same or more content then factions. As for the storyline, i hope that its better, but i really don't know. As for the monster levels and such, i love it. I will keep buying the add-on's till they don't make anymore or i have a full time job.

No Im not missing the point. You think there's actually better content in WoW. Well that's a matter of perception. Like you said, it's playstyle. If you're more a grind based player, of course you'd say WoW had better content.

Explain to me, and I'm being serious here, what "superiour" content WoW has that would make GW better. I'm sure there are a few things that GW can "borrow" but WoW could also "borrow" from GW as well. There are no perfect games out there.

My whole beef was with the OP's remark of ANET doing bad business strictly because he didnt like the content. That's not bad business, that's his opinion of the game. Nothing more.

I'm not a pve detractor, I like it a lot. The point of guildwars is team coordination, not gimme missions that uncoordinated groups can steamroll or areas that players can solo grind (though you can solo or duo grind if you're smart). In that sense I think the PvE in factions is awesome, the environments are varied and there are plenty of things to bash or light on fire. I honestly think most players have no idea how to play this game and that's why people hate the pve play so much.

Pve in guildwars isn't designed for you to spend months of your life playing one type of character all the time (this isn't really a character evolution game) - you play to cap your skills then you go figure out what you can do with those skills and the skills your friends have. The real fun of the game is combining the strengths of different classes into an effective group, there are endless combinations. Once you're done playing with one type of character roll another, when you run out of slots delete the character you play the least and keep going.

If you get bored of the challenge afforded by the npcs you might want to try your skills against other players, they're doing the same thing you are so the challenge always changes. I can see not liking to be challenged in this way, or not liking the trash talking that goes along with playing other people, or not liking losing, so pvp isn't for everyone.

That said there is a reason for not making guildwars more like WoW - in WoW you grind for ever better equipment so that you can more effectively splat people and npcs. If you're going to be competitive in WoW pvp you need to either spend a boatload of time grinding for gear or you need to spend IRL cash on ebay to aquire it the easy way. In any event there's a pretty hefty barrier to entry in terms of either time or money, and if you don't spend one or the other you're going to spend most of your playtime getting ganked and corpse camped.

In guildwars the barrier to competitive play is considerably lower, as soon as you've got one solid skill bar and a few runes unlocked you can easily pvp your way into further unlocks, or you can play the pve game and unlock things the long way. GW is designed to be accessible to casual players who are turned off by the time or money commitment that WoW requires. You can login for an hour and play through two missions, or you can win a few matches in the team arena, you can go on a fissure/underworld run, you can do a couple of GvG battles or you can run with a tombs group for a bit. There are a lot of things available that you can complete in an hour or two.

Here's the problem with making GW more WoW like - say you make ever better equipment available, everyone grinds to aquire it so that they have an advantage. Then everyone else has to grind to obtain the same advantage, otherwise the grinders dominate. So you've just stopped 95% of the playerbase from ever having a competitive chance and you've effectively killed off any hope of having fair fights that are won based on player skill and not on time played.

One last thing, exactly what sort of "content like wow" do you guys want anyway? WoW has a lot of content, are you asking for more art assets, more weapon and armor skins, more skills, more "please fedex this thing to this guy then collect 10 whatsits and fedex them to this other guy" quests, or what?

Be reasonable, WoW charges per month, we're not going to get the same quantity of updates for less money here.

You're definitely missing the point. You're assuming things about the OP that are nowhere to be inferred from what he posted. You're assuming he wants to 'grind'. Where did you read that in his post? I didn't see that. You make something up and then you shoot it down. Missing the point 101. I've no idea about the quality of WoW's content, I've never played it. I was referring to the amount. More stuff to explore, places to go, non-linear gameplay.

Ask someone who played WoW. I'm not going to argue a point I never tried to make.

That's not what you posted in the first message you adressed to me.

If they start charging a monthly fee, bye bye GW.