Bad Business at Arena Net

You keep saying that I missed the point yet you're doing nothing to explain to me what the point was. Its because you dont have a point.

If you have no idea what the content of WoW was, then how could you come here and defend the OP's view that GW should have more of WoW's content?

WoW IS a lot of grind. And yes I've played it. If the OP didnt offer specifics about the "superior" content of WoW then of course we would assume it's the grind factor that he wants. Because as I said, WoW is basically not that different from GW but with a lot more grind.



And yet you did argue about something you know nothing about. Why are you arguing with me then if you dont know what WoW is like?


Just because you missed my other post in this thread doesnt mean that I didnt say it. The forums dont revolve around you.


EDIT:

Now, I ask again. What sort of content are we talking here? We need specifics otherwise people will just assume you want grind. And if you've never played WoW then dont go jumping down my back like some idiot did.

That's exactly what we got though. I started a new character, henched my way through Factions, got the 100% exploration, did all except a rare few missions this way too and got the Protector title. I also capped all elites and didn't die until I hit 858k exp. This took me a month or so. Then, there was nothing left to do, except the godawful leecher-ridden Fort Aspenwood and the never-starting Jade Quarry. So I got back to Tyria where I capped all other elites and maxed the Tyrian PvE titles. My Factions-born character spent a lot more time in Tyria. Factions PvE content is easy, repetitive and scarce. Replayability isn't created by scope, like in Prophecies, but by silly against-the-clock master rewards for missions.

Or maybe, people learned the ropes in Prophecies and breezed through what little there is of Factions?

That's exactly the problem, isn't it? ANet struck a kind of 'just enough content' balance with Prophecies. With more copious amounts of content, more variety and more challenges, I wouldn't have been complaining about Factions. But as it stands, the early PvE game is so boring I can't bring myself to put another character through (Kaining city slums put me to sleep) and after a rare few missions in Kurzick/Luxon land, the game is over. Where's Faction's Sorrow's Furnace equivalent? Where's the Underworld, where's the Fissure of Woe? Where's the Tomb of Primeval Kings? What we did get is 2 elite missions that the vast majority of people can't even earn their way into. The whole 'taxi' thing is preposterous.

I do play PvP, but that has nothing to do with the lack of good PvE in Factions.

Well... no one asked for WoW-amounts of content. Not I, not the OP. He conceded in his very first post that he thought Prophecies was good for him. Unfortunately, Factions is no Prophecies when it comes to content.

Again, PvP is fun, but it doesn't excuse Factions for being short on content. Look at the mission count alone. 25 in Prophecies vs. 13 in Factions. Both have 1 that's hardly a mission: the doppleganger battle and the Shiro fight. That leaves us with 24 vs. 12, where the 24 have secondary objectives while the 12 have a mastery level that leads to repetitive play and frustration for the less talented players. There's no contest, Prophecies is hands down a more fulfilling game.

Who's talking about better equipment and grinding? How about the exact same game with twice the surface to explore, more missions, more interesting missions, more variety? I would definitely play another character through Factions if I wouldn't have to spend days on end looking at the same drab slums to get anywhere, only to find that there isn't anywhere to get to except a rather quick conclusion to the storyline, which even requires going BACK to that dreadful city. After that, nothing. Nothing at all.

The only reason my single Factions character capped all elites for all classes is so that I wouldn't have to play another character through the game to unlock them. Sad, isn't it?

Guild Wars does have quality, well-supported PvE. In fact I would boldly state that the quality of GW PvE blows everything else available out of the water. What other games offer that Guild Wars does not, is massive amounts of low-quality content, and extensive end-game farming support. As you mentioned, Guild Wars does not support a farming endgame, it supports a PvP endgame. There are a few tailored endgame instances in Guild Wars, but that is not the goal of the game. They don't want people grinding out endgame instances incessantly.

Honestly, saying they're making bad business decisions because they don't create massive amounts of endgame PvE makes you look like a moron. Posting later on that they need to keep adding endgame PvE content - but not in future chapters, it "must be available to all players regardless of the chapter they own" - erased all doubt that you really don't understand business decisions at all and are just bitching that you don't get handouts.

Peace,
-CxE

The point is that the amount of content in Factions isn't up to snuff. That was also the ONLY point the OP was making. Did you read his post at all? Every other thing you're trying to pin on us was made up by you yourself. No one mentioned a wish to grind. No one asserted that WoW has better quality content than GW. That's where you're missing the point. We're talking about the amount of content, you're talking about lots of stuff EXCEPT the amount of content. Missing the point.

I know it has a lot more content than GW. That's the only thing ever put forward by the OP and myself. You're desperately trying to argue against a point no one made. Missing the point.

No, he wants more content and only mentioned WoW passingly as a game that has more content. He doesn't mention or even in any way imply that he wants to grind, that's something you yourself made up about him. If I were to wager a guess, I'd say he wants more content to AVOID grinding. Grinding only starts when you've nothing else to do except replay the same content again and again. As long as there's discoveries to be made, new stuff to do, you're not grinding. Asking for more content is a remedy against grind, not a request to add more grind.

I couldn't care less about WoW and I haven't argued about any aspect of it that I don't know about. I know it's a game with more content, and whatever else you want to think I argued, that didn't happen. Words like 'quality' were dragged into this discussion by you yourself, and I never argued or even acknowledged the relative quality of WoW's content, nor did the OP.

When you quote me and respond, that's what I'll respond to. I didn't respond to your other post because I agreed with it and didn't feel like posting: "/signed" or "What he said." That other post had zero to do with what we're talking about here.

Well, you know... they could've put SOME endgame content in Factions, apart from a measely two 'elite' missions you have to beg for to gain entrance. It's not just the OP, and despite his awkward way of making his point, he is right. There's no endgame PvE in Factions to speak of. Many people are dissatisfied with the utter lack of anything. If Factions had the same amount as Prophecies there wouldn't have been an issue, because two equally priced and equally footed games having comparable amounts of content, you can't really argue with that. Factions sold us short though compared to Prophecies, and linking up to the same Underworld and Fissure of Woe really doesn't do much for return customers.

I am fine with what Factions has provided. It's quite alot on my plate to build up all my chars, so it keeps me busy. I haven't even been to the elite missions yet, still just building titles, building characters, gathering loot and helping my guildies. Granted there isn't a ton of 'aftermath' once you're through Shiro, but that doesn't mean I don't have my hands full...

Im not going to even bother reading what you wrote Gli...So this post has nothing to do with you.

Complaining about a lack of content in GW while on the other hand complaining that it's bad business to make us pay for content is ridiculous.

If you want more Wow "content" (still no one has explained how WoW content is superious other than that it's longer) then go play WoW where you pay for it. You want more, you have to pay more.

Heavy PvP players are really forced to buy the next chapter. If you don't have the skill or can't run the build you won't get in the guild.

As in the Cost on a per month basis its different for everyone. If you don't buy the next chapter it cost you less than $5 per month for a year. If you did buy the next chapter its still cheaper than WoW. You may also quit anytime and come back for $0. Also people do not have to have a credit/debit card to play.

I stopped reading when the OP mentioned annoyance at A-Net not paying attention to his sound financianl advice.

That's why I lead off with a troll post :P garbage in, garbage out.

Oh, you're so funny. Not reading my post but hammering on about the off-topic non-issue you can't seem to let go of instead. Sure.

Want more, pay more? Errr... well yeah that sounds logical, but how do you explain the 'Pay the same, get less' deal when comparing Factions with Prophecies?

*sigh* I didnt bother replying to you because you cant seem to grasp certain things and I had to stop or I'd end up calling you a moron.

So does that mean that I'm not allowed to talk about the topic just because YOU said so?

As for the "Pay the same, get less" comment on your part, you're wrong...yet again. We DONT pay the same playing GW compared to playing WoW. They have to PAY for their expansions as well as pay the monthly fee. Go do the math or dont spout such nonsense.

Christ man, you're implying that I'm the moron here?

First, you can talk about whatever the hell you want, but you're challenging people to defend things they never claimed. Which isn't something someone who isn't a moron would do. (I can do passive aggresive like the best of them.)

Second, my "Pay the same, get less" comment was comparing Factions with Prophecies. What's your hangup about WoW that you can't even read what I wrote without thinking I was talking about WoW?

Spouting nonsense indeed.

He didn't say anything about "pay the same, get less" towards GW and WoW; he said "pay the same, get less" in regards to Factions and Prophesies.

I agree with Factions having less content in the PvE side, especially on the end game areas. Ensign is right in that GW was originally designed to have PvP as the end game, but in reading M. O'Brien's interview as far back as Febuary right before Factions was being ready to ship, he admits to "Now" knowing that many players have no interest in PvP. We have since then heard that PvE will be given the same importance as PvP. We also know that Jeff Strain has said that GW started off as a role-playing game and the goal was to have players finish the role-playing game, then PvP.
Since both of these things have been added to and adjusted as the game evolves, I would imagine we will see more PvE and PvP as time goes on.
We also saw Anet rename the storage feature (called a core feature by Alex Weeks) to chapter content to maintain sales (Gaile's reason given) of a heavy PvP product. I see this as a knowledgable marketing choice (however annoying it is) towards knowing that PvE is where the market share is at, and as Ensign has also said, that the PvE in GW is pretty good... else we wouldn't be asking for more.
Hang tight all, let's see what Nightfall has to offer before we bury the game. They know as well as we do, Nightfall has a lot riding on it.

Regardless of all the stupid nitpicking going on this thread..


If the PvE content (ie size of world, explorability, etc) is anyhting like Ch2: Factions in Ch3: Nightfall, it will be the last iteration of Guild Wars I will buy.


Anet has pretty much lost my trust after Factions.

Challenge missions could count as endgame PvE content. The fact that you're scored against other people make it pseudo-pvp and thus, a bit more competative.

However, this would only work if:
-Getting a high rank requires good coordination and planning
-The rewards are really good (if you do well!)
-Each time the mission was done, there was some variation to keep it fresh (and to keep teams on their toes)
-The mission's challenging

I haven't really played the challenge missions a lot, but from what I've seen they don't really fulfill any of these. However, with a bit of patching (ok, maybe a lot), I think challenge missions could be salvaged into more endgame PvE.

lol this should have been closed about 5 pages back

all you are doing is repeating each other *yawn*

Yeah, people complaining about "pay the same, get less" do you really expect each chapter to have the same amount of content, the same type of content and have the same exact appeal?

Right now, all I hear is "blah blah blah I hate Factions because it's different than Propecies. Wah wah wah." Geezus get over it. It's hardly a "pay the same get less" fact. It's only your opinion. If you want to threaten to quit over it, then go ahead. No one cares.

I think I got my money's worth plenty just because I dont have to go through the tedious nonsense of Prophecies.

I'm having a hard time understanding why people are so upset with this apparent lack of quantity of content from Factions as compared to Prophecies. I only see it as a perception issue, since the real difference in content is only the early-game (pre-lev 20) content that the populace made apparent they didn't want anyway. Also, ANet went out and addressed one large gripe the people had with Prophecies, that being that the missions were too long.

For my part, I reach level 20 at about Sanctum Cay, so that leaves 9 missions + the doppel for me as far as level 20 content goes. However, I may be an anomaly, as I do every quest and get every mission/bonus on the way, so I can see many people not reaching that point until the desert missions, or even ascension itself. Therefore, I would say that there are really 7 to 10 missions of real level 20 content (depending if you want to count Ascension trials).

Furthermore, once people had achieved their first play-through, the running business appeared and thrived. And what a success it was! It's not hard for me to see the dev's impressions and the resulting consequences. They saw that the players didn't care about pre-lev 20 content; the players saw that aspect of the game as more of a burden than a pleasure. Hence, in the next GW incarnation, it was minimized.

In Cantha, Shing Jea island took the place of Ascalon -> Jungle. Characters levelled up much quicker, and now people are generally at level 20 by the time they get to Vizunah Square, perhaps Nahpui Quarter. Discount the Shiro mission if you want, and that leaves 9 missions of level 20 content (Nahpui -> Raisu). Compound with this that the longest of Canthan missions would take slightly over a half-hour, as compared to the Tyrian end-game missions that broke 1 hour regularly, and you should be able to see how a perception of shortness might form. Add in with that, even, that the playerbase is now much more experienced, and will take significantly less time on their first play-through of Factions as compared to Prophecies, and the appearance of a gross shortcoming comes up.

So, while yes, I agree that if you want to look at pure game-hours for completion, Factions may have been shorter. However, outside of that Factions actually had more content for level 20 characters, especially if you add in Challenge missions (5 pure PvE, 2 pseudo-PvP), Alliance battles, and Elite missions.

So, if you're here to gripe about Factions PvE being shorter, know that your gripe is being aimed at the very things people didn't like about Prophecies, being pre-lev 20 content and the arduous mission length.

I had really high hopes for the challenge missions after I heard you could get cash from them. After I played them though I was very let down about them. If I take a character on a quick farm run I can make 1k to 3k on average in ten minutes. I do not like farming as it is so boring; so I was hoping these challenge missions would replace that. However, the reward is so low for the time it takes to set up a group plus play through them as far as you can... the rewards just do not justify the game play.
So yea, I agree if the rewards for these missions matched what I can make so easily else where then yes, I would consider them as a viable "something to do".

Regardless, a number of us were discouraged at the PvE content Factions offered while a number of us as well enjoyed it. Personally, Factions did lack some PvE aspect.. but still in the end I really enjoyed it and still am enjoying it. Money well worth in my opinion. Now, onto purchasing Factions for my significant other..

same here Kurt
i also stopped drinking and drugs not just because gw is more fun but it also interferes with my lvl of game play.
i was just getting bored with prophecies when factions came into play.
VIVA LE UPGRADES !

GJ man

A Portion?
Try 90% of ppl from Prophecies. Repeat buying will be lower for chapter 3 unless Arena Net shapes up.


Thankyou for your support but I beg you not to give Anet any ideas in the realm of monthly fees. lol


Yes we all understand that UW and FoW are core content instances. The problem is that there is only UW and FoW and Guildwars is over a year old. The Last High level instance to come out was ToPK. Why isn't there a "Cantha ToPK" I beat Factions in the first week and most players agree that it needs some high level farming areas to keep it interesting. Instead, Arena Net is creating more content that has a price tag. My OP was meant for Anet to put in more content or they would loose their core customers.

*****

Added by Dralspire: Please stop posting multiple replies, rather put all your thoughts into one reply.

God forbid, no. What I do expect though is a game with a decent amount of content, variety of content and some kind of appeal. What we got with Factions though is a game lacking in content, huge chunks of boring identical environs and not enough lasting appeal to make me want to play more than 1 character through it. Heck, there's not even anything to keep the one character I did play through it occupied after completing the storyline.

It's not a matter of opinion, it's cold hard fact. We're looking at a pathetically small amount of pre level 20 content, about half the amount of story missions Prophecies had, and hardly any endgame content at all.

Wait, what? You're obsessively defending Factions with non-arguments, not even giving an inch when presented with simple quantifyable facts, and now even casually dismissing Prophecies as justification? This discussion is over as far as I'm concerned, because your line of argument just hit rock bottom.

If you want to foam at the mouth ranting about how some of us can't appreciate the 'tedious nonsense of Factions', then go ahead. No one cares.

Yeah, what would PvPers do without Pvesauce to pwn when bored. If there was no PvE the Arenas would be empty. Guild Wars is an organism that is slowly dying. Its organs (all players) need to work together to convince the brain (Arena Net) to quit smashing itself in the head with a hammer. PvE content must be improved to a point that it is worth $50 to the average player.

Indeed it's needed. Not for me but just for every1 that plays hardcore pve.
I decided yesterday to make a new char but i was so bored in Cantha that I just deleted the char and made a new 1 in Tyria.
Because my guildmates are on vacation why can't gvg and stuff so i have time for a good old prophecies campaign

Dude....the fan base is not only rpg players. Have a look around before you speak. Just look at the amount of guilds and ppl competing in the ladder. There is a yearly WC.
I don't see Anet organising a pve monster slay championship That would be a screaming and fighting party (noob you suck with your ranger, wamo FTW)

And you say pvp players have affected this forum?? sigh...most of them don't even think about coming here because ppl like you only flame at them.
What is your problem with pvp?? Not enough skills for it?

Again, you tell us to go play WoW. We don't want to play WoW. We just want the subsequent chapters to measure up in content to Prophecies. Do you really want all of those who feel this way to just leave, because if Arena Net continues with their current business plan we will. Good luck trying to get an alliance battle with no opposing team.

I tried PvP right at the start - didnt like it at all - never played it since. I ONLY play PvE. I loved and still love Prophecies. Factions is a pile of **** basically imo.

What makes me sick is all the supposed "skill balancing" they do which is solely for PvP no matter what they say. Virtually every time they "balance", it is to the detriment of PvE players.

They are too focussed on PvP for my liking. They tried to get the PvE players to play more PvP by slipping in some PvP into the Factions PvE side which has only made matters worse.

If Nightfall is like Factions I will not be buying it. I realise that the views above go against the vast majority of peoples opinions, but they're mine so flame me!

Funny, factions is basically the same as prophecies in that sense .. there are roughly the same number of environments, the same mobs of identical enemies... Did you expect massive changes?

You really want to play more of the game without having good skills? Wow, that sounds incredibly lame.

I am officially getting this thread back on track. Who here would not want the maximum content for their money? This thread is just me begging Arena Net for bigger continents with more missions with some unique twists. Guild Wars is a big part of my life and I want us all to be happy. PvPers I love you PvEers I love you too

I just want more bang for my buck.

So lets start discussing things that could be improved.

Well, I went back and re-read this entire thread again to find some valid points (if any), and found these:

.....I'm from Prophecies. I'm in the 10% portion of all Prophecies players just because I happen to (gasps) like Factions!?!?

I'm sorry but, where did you get this number?

Why do I have a feeling that....sorry to say this but, you're asking for FREE LUNCH?!

You are not the first to create a thread about this topic and wont be the last, 9 pages of people rewording/rewriting what someone else has covered is dull.

Threads like this just end up in a flame war and this one is heading that way.

oh btw Anet has made good business from this game..they made ppl passionate about this game otherwise you all wouldnt be posting to such an extreme..

i would prefer more pve also but ah well.
It will come.

If anything the fact this has been discussed before makes it more important that it is still an issue.

Yes people get to heated and to much of this would mean the thread should be closed but this has NOT happened as yet.

Stop making a page of this thread not about the issue, there are valid points in this thread that do need to be addressed, the sheer volume of players who think there is a problem just by POSTING here is something.

And I’m Sorry if this thread is not as exciting as you would like but that does not give you the right to demand it be closed.

Yes Guild Wars is fantastic… in a few months people will be saying Guild Wars ‘WAS’ Fantastic, that is what the majority of players here are concerned about.

If you could get more out of Guildwars wouldn't you want it. All i want is the same quantity and quality chapters as was in the original product.

Im gettin sleepy and really wish ppl would realize that Arena Net is starting to Nickel and Dime us by making a less quality chapter be a requirement to stay competitive. for example:

1 Storage increase only being available to cantha characters
2 Extra character slots for sale when they stole 2 of yours after you merged your accounts.

Are you happy with losing those slots just because you wanted to bring your Tyrian characters to cantha.

Remember, this would all be a non-issue if Factions had been even close to equal in content with respect to Prophecies. I don't like being forced to purchase an inferior product just to stay competitive. Therefore, if it continues to be inferior I will not purchase any more chapters.

Well the ebgames info about Nightfall, if it's true, seems to indicate a shift towards possibly more Prophecies-like PvE experience (at least in number of missions/areas to explore etc) so that might possibly indicate they've learned from the problems of Factions.

Keywords: If. Might. Possibly.

If thats the case then I will give big hugs to everyone. I shall pray to Dwayna all night for good content and a fulfilling storyline.

I would say factions had better, if a perhaps shorter PvE storyline. The missions i found more enjoyable, and less frustrating than prophecies, and the co-operative and competitive missions really brightened up the dulling PvE.

As for PvP players enjoying the various nerfs and buffs, i am a PvP player and i think i speak for most when i say that ANET is being a little too cuatious when it comes to changing skills.

Imo, what needs to happen in chapter 3 is not to introduce new proffesions, or even new areas, but actually make sure of 90% of the skills for each proffesion that just arnt used. A good example is that if ur wielding an axe, and u want an axe elite, which one does everybody take without fail?

So, if i have one request from ANET its not to add new content, its to start making use of the existing one. Imagine all the new builds if some skills were just made decent enough to even consider bringing (i am looking at you Spirit Light Weapon)

As for GW:N PvE. Looks like they are making the hencie feature more in depth now. Not sure how that will play out, but sounds interesting, so that may brighen up PvE.

And your point is.........?

You are going to play WoW and only GW Prophecies?
Alright, noted.

move along, nothing important to see.

Guild Wars Still Has alot of Promise and we all hope Nightfall will turn it around,

But Nerfing Everything is destroying anyone careing as much as anything else, what is the point in having more explorable areas when you cant farm anyway is how i feel because i love farming, i understand obviously the explorable areas will have other uses rather than farming, but recently the whole Guild Wars Experience has left me feeling like Everytime i achieve something it is ripped away from me.


Nightfall will be intresting and i hope they make something available to make farming and running more viable... even IF you dont like ti FINE!... but this is part of Guild Wars Still is and always will be, doesnt matter how much you flame me for saying it.

Getting All the main aspects of the game into a product (a sequal especially.) is so important and this is the main problem with the Guild Wars Model So far. that is insists you fit around the game.

Which is never going to last long, it alienates alot of players which is not viable if you wish to keep buisness

Simple.

(Things NEED to be moaned about for them to be improved.)