Firestorm needs to be REMOVED from Guildwars

Meteor Shower also scatters, so everytime you get an ele in your group that uses Meteor Shower do you shout "NOOB"?
Also Breath of Fire isnt bad, if you put down meteor shower first, then breath of fire, then rhodgorts thats probably the best AOE nuke your gonna find, shower doesnt scatter until the last meteor so you will scatter a bit but what is left alive to be scattering after that isnt at all major problem.

You could use firestorm in a similar way, it has a longer duration and deals less damage but theres lots of weak skills in guildwars, if you wanted to keep only the ones that are popular then you would be left with very little.

it doesn't need to be removed,
what would the bodyguard cast instead? :P
also i have to ask,
is it just me or has this been moved 3 times?

No, but i'll explain how scattering works and how he could cast Meteor Shower without scattering. If he however then refuses to apply that knowledge or gets bitchy. Bleh, one less party member to drag along :P

simple resolution: get everyone to know:

fire storm on tank = bad
fire storm on squishes = good

Why do people use firestorm? Meteor Storm is far better, yes it cannot be spammed in the same way but due to its knockdown effect and superior damage it reeks havoc without causing to much scatter.

Use Firestorm and then meteor. Then enemy just can't run out from Firestorm so easily.

/nod

Remove firestorm from henchies, definitely. Give them something like Rodgort's Invocation... I can't imagine how many times I've gotten annoyed at cynn or orion using it. Hopefully in NF I'll be able to have a dual attunement henchie with NO firestorm.

mmmm interesting points...

@ramma77, ty for the build tip

@Amity and truth :I do play necro and mez too, but I still want to play ele and to find out the best way to do it. Do you think that the whole idea of having a fire ele as a nuker is pointless then?

Ele nuker is one of the most common builds: Is the consensus of opinion that eles shouldn't nuke/AoE? Is the AoE fire ele a defunct build? Why have it? Is it not just that people don't use their nuking intelligently and end up causing more trouble than help? I have to admit I always take meteor shower and it can produce great results if its used/timed properly...isn't that the whole point? To use the terrain and players to bodyblock and corner and time the shot to do the most damage? Conversely, I agree it can be a waste of nrg and pretty ineffective/troublesome if used wrongly.

So is the fire ele nuker redundant?

DNFTT

You need to "learn2play". Really, don't speak of something if you are just going to spew a pile of fecal matter out of your mouth. Ever heard of Flaggers, or Flashbots, or Warders? I don't think you have. To be honest, I think you just got into a bad GvG, where your leader forced you to play Heal Party spammer, or something rediculous like that.

Elementalists are very powerful, and very versatile.

Well, from my point of view the traditional Fire Nuker is a very bad thing in PVE just as much as in PVP. The problem here is simply the insanely high armor and hitpoints of PVE Mobs, combined with the ridiculously long Casting and Recharge Times and don't forget about exhaustion.
It is just that in Highlevel Areas, your damage is often cut down to a third of its strength, or even less. Promising Spells have poor drawbacks that will instant cripple you when you use them. And in the end, you cast your Meteor Shower into the crowd and do 3x50 damage to everyone in the small Area of Effect. You now have however also spend 25 Energy, wasted 5 long seconds casting it, your energy bar has lost 10 maximum Energy due to exhaustion and if you've shot another AOE Spell the enemies are now running around like a chicken without a head.

In the higher level Areas, the ones where you will spent most time in anyways, the armor ignoring damage the other classes can deal is sadly superior to the damage output of a Fire Nuker. Your tank (if you brought one, most will do) will be constantly hexed. Well it is a good thing as your mesmer now can deal 126 Armor ignoring damage every 10 seconds for the cost of a mere 15 energy.
And your Necromancer will be button happy as he casts one Spiteful Spirit after another into the huge crowd, seeing 41s floating around like a firework. And as the mobs are perma hexed, that other Necromancer will be happy as well, Feasting his way through the crowd for 139 Damage and don't forget Putrid Explosion as soon as someone died for another armor ignoring AOE Shock.

See where i am going?
Though as bad as it may seem, the Fire Nuker sure does some damage. And if you've brought some of them, they can easily power through anything. This however is not because they're efficient, have good damage or something like that. It's simply raw mindless power. Even if the spells would deal 10 damage, if a multitude of Elementalists deals those 10 damage it's a force to be reckoned. That is because they're cumulative. Bringing two spiteful spirit Necromancers doesn't equal twice the damage, bringing two elementalists does.

But all in all, i'd put the Fire Echo Nuker into the same niche as your average Mending Warrior or Heal Party / Healing Breeze Monk Spammer. They're builds that can work with some luck and they've been there in GuildWars for a long time. That doesn't mean they're good, they're just common and most importantly, they're noticeable. Heavy Big Rocks falling from the sky? Woot! Damage. Jumping Healthbars? Woot! Healermonk. Mending? Uh, dunno. :P. While on the other hand you don't see the effect of spiteful spirit. You don't see someone shattering the hexes from you. You don't see the corpses explode...
It's a matter of "seeing is believing" and this is why Elementalists are often taken over a Necromancer or Mesmer. People feel alienated by those as the only way to truely know their power is to have played one.

lol man talk about clueless

listen the fact is the elemental is not playing like they are ment to be played. That is all what they are back ground class. they are pretty much useless other a healer or some back ground class ........ flag runner..... why even have this elemental class in teh first place! maybe you should try playing an elemtal for change and then come talk to me.

You're the one calling the Elementalist a healbot. That doesn't exactly give the impression that you have a clue, bucko.

Who are you to say how the profession is meant to be played? In all actuality, I'm curious as to your definition of an Elementalist. By all means, explain how they are meant to be played. It should be interesting.

Elementalists aren't useless in any respect. However, feel free to try and prove me wrong.

Oh, by the way... I have played an Elementalist. It was the first profession I ever played, and I put a good few hundred hours into it. I know what I'm talking about.

Bitch, Moan, Groan, Whine, Whine, Whine, and Bitch some more! Holy wow people!

Just because YOU don't like a skill does NOT mean it should be removed.

Just because YOU don't know how to play an Ele or don't like playing an Ele does NOT mean they are useless.

Just because YOU think it's useless, does NOT mean a skill should be removed.

Just because YOU found a person that used the skill badly, does NOT mean the skill should be removed. Nor should you holler NOOB at the person and get all bitchy. If they are new, explain why you would PREFER them not to use something.

I don't find firestorm useless, never have. Yes it causes scatter (which occassionally is handy), unless you have the enemies penned in or so engrossed on the tank that they aren't paying attention to the spells being cast on them. I've used firestorm rather effectively in the deep. Cast meteor shower, then firestorm and then whack away with meteor and fireball while they are engrossed on the tank blocking the way. Meteor and Meteor Shower both knock them down which keeps them in the firestorm longer, causing more damage. If the tank is walling in a small space (like a doorway) then the monsters are more likely to retreat than to try and slip past the tank.

Another good use for firestorm, I've found, in the deep is when the tank is taking too much damage for the monk to keep up with. And yes, this happens, I've seen it. Might be a poorly equipped tank, might be a poorly equipped monk, either way its not really anyones fault b/c shit happens. Use firestorm to break the enemies off the tank while the Ele and Monk slowly retreat. If the enemies do slip past the tank (again I use the example of walling in a doorway) the squishies should be far enough out of the danger zone that they shouldn't be chased. This gives the monk a chance to recharge and the tank time to heal after aggro is broken and the enemies retreat.

As for henchies having firestorm....hench tanks don't hold aggro anyway so why worry about scatter from firestorm? The enemies scatter anyway!

/soUnbelievablyNotSigned

We've all been there and experience it. We all know how annoying it is when the hench or nooby ele uses FireStorm and scatters the enemies.

But because my main character is a very experience Ele himself. Im going to have to disagree completely with you.

FireStorm, like any skill, in the hands of a novice or a henchmen can be mis-used. Its not a skill that alot of highend players are going to bring with them, because its virtually useless in highend areas.

But its vital in low-end areas.

Its vital for when you first start out as an ele.

Its an elementals first experience of a high yeild attack. It helps them see whats to come. It helps them attack large numbers of foes AND scatter them, to provent overwhelming agro.

It only really becomes useless when you get your hands on meteor-shower, and other high-yield skills which DONT scatter.

Until then though, you wouldnt survive without it.

It only becomes a newsance when you have lvl17-20 characters still using it, when they really dont have an excuse anymore. By that time, they should have atleast found meteor-shower and alternatives.

To remove it completely is just daft.

Im sure their are countless skills that every profession has, which when used by a noob or a hench can do more harm then good.

Its about educating people to use their skills, not just getting rid of the skill.

But if your wanting to remove skills, purely because they scatter, then you would have to remove virtually every fire skill that factions introduced. They virtually all scatter.

I guess spells like firestorm should be targeted to ground spots not foes, could be an interesting skill to carry with you again.

It is a good skill! I use it as a defensive skill combined with Bed of coals and Star Burst. Yes they scatter but I do not die! Also it is fun to run into mobs in tight corridors. In Mission three of factions it helps out. So many targets running everywhere. If timed right when they spawn they die or run with little to no health.

Firestorm is a great spell so I dont see why it should be removed. Of course you do have to know when to use it properly.

I use it when I go hench only. It alows me to reposition enemy casters backwards out of casting reach so they cant target my weaker henchies while damaging them AND stopping them from casting spells at the same time.

If for some reason one or two or even a whole bunch of warriors break trough to my backlines wreaking havoc to my armor 60 team members, down goes a firestorm asuring a 10 second interuption of attacks in which I can take atleast one of them down and reposition.

And the final use, when the mob is completely stacked on top of each other on a cornor, in efect body blocking each other, I throw in a firestorm, does LOADS of damage and the only way they can go is backwards so when they agro again they have no choice but to attack the warrior hench again.

Great multifunctional spell, with a rellatively quick recharge. Really nice... when used correctly

Hell yes, warrior hench do hold agro. Just depend on how well you know how to control your hench and I can tell you I am able to hold agro with hench warrior a LOT better than with most human warriors.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.. well in this case, don't hate the skill, hate the player's skill.. ugh that sounds lame.

Argument poorly put forward. Lacking facts and statistics. Opinions overly bias. You know I think we have a troll.

Just because someone does not know how to use a skill does not mean it should be removed. Too much emphasis is placed on winning and not enough on having fun and learning.

Exactly. Not everything is about dealing damage to win. Look at mesmers for a good example. They focus on controlling the enemy letting other team members pick them off. Elementalists are a great for more than jsut damage. I love using my ele as a support character.

firestorm doesnt need to be removed.
noobs do.

I vote they remove it from Orion, but not the game- its a staple skill. And ya whoever was talking about W/E firestormers- agreed. Mucho LOL. breath of fire aint bad in many cases... Id never use it tho. Seems like it works ok in AB...

The best firestorm is cast at spirits.

And fire magic sucks in the deep lol.

Firestorm is for crowd control. It disperses swarms.

I know that most enemies down there are weak to lighting...but Fire Magic is used for crowd control. If you can change most lighting spells to AOE, please lemme know

As everyone has said: DoT AoE = squishy defense. In fact if your PvE team has VOIP and is coordinated, you can make use of the fact that the mobs will be fleeing and use leaping mantis strike, ice trident, etc.

Firestorm and other skills that have the same effect have their uses and if used properly can be very effective. And just because some people can't seem to use those skill properly isn't reason enough to remove them from the game. You're essentially asking them to dumb down the game for no reason. So if you're going to ask them to remove this skill, why not ask them to just roll the game back to when aggros didn't break. Better yet let them choose for us what skills we should take.

It's not the skill, it's the person who is using it.

/notsigned

well very funny I still play elementalist!

so when did you put your elementalist down after the aoe update!!


If you stilled played your elementalist you would know what i am talking about! There is a ton of players that would agree with me. If you want to find fact use the sarch button I am sure there is 100000 flames + plus debate on the topic!

Fascinating how many people are pretending that Firestorm still has a use. It is no wonder at all that PvE is in such poor shape these days. If you need to spend 15 energy and 3 seconds to get a vanishingly tiny 10 second respite from pressure, then (a) your aggro control SUCKS, and (b) you have idiots playing your monks. Not surprising, because your monk earned his bonafides monking for Pet/Barrage or some similar broken build. There is never a good reason to use Firestorm. Nuking spirits indeed!

If im understanding this arguement right.

Dreamhunk, your saying that Elementals are absolutely useless within GWs?

So your stating that their incapable of doing anything useless within a battle, and as a profession cant achieve anything.

Whether this will prove you wrong, I dont know, but I hope it does...



....Dont be thinking im wanting to show off. Im not!

Im just trying to prove a point.

I'm willing to admit that the protector titles can be achieved by anyone, provided they have a good team, so that doesnt really proves anything.

But you cant honestly sit there and tell me that seeing as I have grandmaster on both continents, that the Elemental profession is useless.

You stated that elementals are only good at healing?

It takes more then "healing" to explore a continent. During my exploration I rarely carried healing skills. I left the healing to the hench monks.

And since an elemental cant run away from agro, I had to fight most of the time. I achieved those titles through very powerfull NUKING and slaughtering of groups.

You can scoff all you want. Ive no doubt you will.

You'l probably say I havent proved anything at all. Thats your choice.

But I would personally say that picture was very powerfull evidence that elementals are not useless.

Plus you can add the fact that when ever ive played with henches or humans, im nearly always the last one alive.

That isnt due to running away. I just seem to always survive.

If you want to get all macho about it. I also through in the fact I have two 15k armor sets for my ele, both died black. Thats assuming you judge greatness by material things.


You seem to be completely blind to the fact, that elementals do the most damage in the entire game. We can through out up to around 80+dmg in one strike. How could we be useless.

We provide one of the main support professions. I bet youve played many a mission or a quest that would have failed, did you not have an elemental covering your back.


I will also admit that there are alot of useless elementals in this game. But the same could be said for Warriors. Ive had many an incounter with a warrior who is just a trigger happy moron. Purely out to fight and agro everything. Ultimately killing the entire group.

But I also accept that good warriors exist because ive played along side them.




The point is that the greatness of a profession lies in who is playing that character. Yes some people are useless, and some arent.

The million dollar question is, freakedoutfish, is Firestorm in your skillbar?

Whether it's left in or not, whether people like it or not, the fact remains.

Firestorm sucks.

It's terrible damage. It's terrible AoE. It's a terrible defensive skill.

Just don't bring it, tell everyone you know not to bring it, and we'll quarantine that useless skill like smallpox!

Do you depend on one build and one build alone? If you do then I can understand why you'd actually ask this question. If not, then why do you bother to ask it. I'm perplexed as to why you'd even suggest that firestorm does or does not need to be in ones skill bar. If you're even half decent at coming up with your own builds you'll know that you use some skills more than other and you use them according to what the situation calls for.

Fine, consider the question amended to "is Firestorm ever in your skillbar?"

Though I suppose you can answer that with "yes, when I'm nuking suits of armor."

Enjoy your silly semantic game if that's what you make of it. I ain't playin'.

Then what are you playing? Insult everyone under the sun?

You know what maybe you're right. Maybe since so many people out there that think that firestorm still has use it's no wonder PvE is in such bad shape. And since there are so many people that think that then obviously our aggro control is bad and all the monks out there are idiots.

But since there are so many 'bad' players out there, as you seem to suggest, then I guess that firestorm does have an actual use. It can help all of us who can't control our aggro and it'll help the monks who apparently can't heal and need a 10 second rest.

I guess that means you're in favor of it staying?

The fact remains that it's a skill. There's nothing special about it and infact sometimes it can just downright suck. But I'm not going to throw it out the window just because at the moment I'm not using it. Nor will I browbash other people over the fact that they may or may not have a use for it. And yes people who do use it inapporpriately are going to get an earful, from me included.

But if you dont' like it as much as you seem to, then don't use it! If you don't like it being in the skill-bars of other players then make sure to inform them and let them know not to use it. Or just stick to guild groups or groups of friends that you know aren't going to use it. There is no reason for you to go on a rant about how everyone out there must be an idiot just because they don't use a skill as much as they used to.

Ugh. That's just so terribly wrong it almost made me kill a kitten. Fun aside, read my post above as to why that statement is dead wrong. I agree on the other thing though. Elementalist is a good support class with some minor backup damage. It's just that they suck badly at dealing damage.

In PVE:
AL > Elementalist

In PVP:
Kiting > Elementalist

Except that firestorm isn't good. Learn to control you aggro, learn how to transfer aggro to the warrior if you've been targetted. If you seriously need a defensive aoe, things like symbol of wrath are faster and better controlled.

I don't need a lesson on aggro control, transfer of the aggro, or the use of defensive aoe. Perhaps you missed this.

Dear Aki, the point I (and possibly Avarre) is trying to make is that there is no appropriate use for this skill. The rebuttal to this statement cannot be "yes, people use it inappropriately". I (we) claim that all uses are inappropriate.

The proper rebuttal is to demonstrate an appropriate use for this skill. For example, you can attempt to rebut with the statement "I can use Firestorm to nuke spirits and minions because they don't moove or don't flee from AoE." It would still not be a valid rebuttal because (a) 15 energy, 3 second cast, 30 second recharge just to take out a few adjacent spirits is worse than ridiculous in both PvP and PvE, and (b) minion nuking is never needed in PvE (unless your MM dies, but that's another can of worms) and is no longer needed in PvP now that minion factory is dead.

Yes, it's a skill, as you say. No one has doubted the fact of its existence.

Bingo.

Superb, you managed to confuse yourself. You were talking about how 'bad' players would need the skill, and my point is, they don't. So unless you're one of the 'bad' players you're talking about, how am I even talking to you? Unless of course you aren't confused at all, in which case that makes so much sense...



Point is, there is no viable use of firestorm that makes it worth a skill slot. Yes, you can scatter mobs with it. You can do the same by moving around the tank to transfer aggro. Why bring a skill when you can do just as good without it? Soon to be 1000+ skills, and 8 slots. Firestorm will never be worth one of those 8 slots in it's current state.